What do like more forms or fighting?

[SolidTiger]

I like to do forms and and fight, but I like fighting more it's more interactive and you learn how to escape attacks. I like forms because the more you do a form the better your attacks become, and you also learn new attacks moves from forms...

Thank you

SolidTiger

[tshadowchaser]

For me each has it's place in my training. Doing forms I have totaly lost allperspective of the world around me. The attackers where there in front ,beside , and behind me. I could feel and see them. Only at the very end of the form durring meditation did I come back to reality. OK, it's only gone to that extream a couple of times but what an experence.
Fighting is a strange world in itslef. Light sparring teaches give and take, distance, timeing, and many other things. It gives me a chance to work certian techniques continualy. Multipal opponet sparring teaches other things. Fighting, WELL thts a whole other story. THe place I go when fighting , the mental awareness of what is ghoing on is different. I have been told that I can be felt at a distance and that I do things on a higher level. Can't really say I can't see myslf or feel what I give off.
Hell I love both EXCEPT doing Sanchin in front of my instructor. That will always feel unconfortable , I know how hard he will be hitting me.

Shadow
:asian:

[SolidTiger]

yes right on the button, when your doing a form you must
feel your attacks as if you are in a real fight. your movements
can't be like kick here punch here. You have to feel your punches
and kicks, but when you fight you see how good you really are.

Thank you

SolidTiger

[MTisGreat]

i believe MA builds a foundation and increases ur chances of winning a fight. more fights will build ur focus and reflexes and experiece

[tshadowchaser]

The last two post have mentioned Fight experence. Do you really mean fights (no hold or weapon barred, winner walks away loser gose to hospital at best), or do you mean sparring?

[MTisGreat]

sparrring builds experience but not as much as street fights. sparring isnt wat im talking about thought. im talking street and nhb fights

[Bob Hubbard]

Because of the nature of each, your results will vary.

If you do alot of forms, you'll get better at forms, but not neccisarily learn to fight.

If you spar alot, you'll get better at sparin, but again not nec. fighting.

The only way to get good at fighting, is to fight. When you spar, you hold back, you dont go for the kill, you wear safety gear. When you fight, its flesh on flesh, and someone isn't getting up again.

The Samurai knew a fight had only 3 outcomes.
1- I win. That means I'm alive, and you are not.
2- Tie. We are both dead.
3- I lose. I'm dead.

This was based on the idea that there were only 3 skill levels.
1- Not as good as I
2- As good as I
3- Better than I.

With the odds 66% against you from the start I personally hope to avoid fights.

You need to know how to integrate the forms and the sparing into you, so that the concepts are internalized, and you can then achieve 'action without thought' in a real fight.

(hopefully that made sence...was a long weekend heh.)
:asian:

[karatekid1975]

I'm the type of person who loves forms. I practiced them more than anything. I sparred maybe once or twice (besides test time) in a year and a half of TSD. When I got attacked ( a green belt in TSD at the time), I didn't spar more than once, but I walked away, and he didn't.

Now that I do TKD, I spar more, but I still like forms better. I'm the type of person who "digs" into the forms. I don't just learn the "motions" like some people. I wanna know what each move is for, and the "how's and why's" of each move. Maybe that's what helped me when I got attacked, but then again, it could have been the step sparring or the self defense part. I still don't know.

[chufeng]

Excuse me for appearing stupid...

I like forms...

Nowhere in my experience has anyone been more formidible than my "imaginary" foe...

My worst nightmare of a sparring partner has been tame compared to my "imaginary" sparring partner that faces EVERY day when I do forms practice...

Maybe I just haven't seen the WORST nightmare of a foe in training yet...but, I believe, WE each have our own worst enemy...and it is us.. so, WE must defeat ourselves in order to master anything...

:asian:
chufeng

[Bob Hubbard]

Please don't take my comments as knocking forms. I wasn't intending it that way.

Forms done right will help, and both of you seem to have the right ideas.


I'm the type of person who "digs" into the forms. I don't just learn the "motions" like some people. I wanna know what each move is for, and the "how's and why's" of each move.
and

WE each have our own worst enemy...and it is us.. so, WE must defeat ourselves in order to master anything...

Exactly. 95% of the folks I've met in the last few years just do the 'dance', but can't see within. 1 person recently realized that -all- of the basics were located in the form they were struggling to do. I might add that they had no problem with the individual techs, but the form was kicking their ass. The light went on and they 'saw'. Now, its coming together nicely.

If you just go thru the motions, in 10 years you'll be a parrot. If you analyze, and understand, and internalize and expand, then you'll be a martial artist.
:asian:

[ECYili]

To me, forms are fighting, that's what they were designed for. Most people don't put in the time to do the right trainning to be able to use the techniques in a fight.
You have to train the forms the right way. Then you have to train the applications the right way over and over again until it's engrained.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by ECYili

To me, forms are fighting, that's what they were designed for. Most people don't put in the time to do the right trainning to be able to use the techniques in a fight.
You have to train the forms the right way. Then you have to train the applications the right way over and over again until it's engrained.


This is true.
My teacher is always telling us "don't make stupid sweat........understand what you are doing" (meaning if you don't know what the heck it is you are doing then you are just wasting your time)

I can't understand why most people don't pay attention to the old saying "there is no wasted motion in Karate" (other arts too).
Even little things such as slight movements have meaning...........stuff that looks like nothing is often critical in technique.
It seems people are too eager to get out there and "kick ass" than to learn the proper way.

[Cruentus]

The only way to get good at fighting, is to fight. When you spar, you hold back, you dont go for the kill, you wear safety gear. When you fight, its flesh on flesh, and someone isn't getting up again.

This is so true Kaith; not many people really understand this.

It's important to train for a "fight" or "combat" the best way one knows how, understanding that there really is no substitute for real combat. "How" to train for this will depend on the art your studying. Whether you like forms, partner drills, sparring, or whatever, keeping the combat application in mind while not having the false confidence that your "training" will somehow substitute for "reality" is the best thing that anyone can do to prepare for that reality.

Forms or Sparring?? I personally prefer partner work and sparring.

:cool:

[Cruentus]

sparrring builds experience but not as much as street fights. sparring isnt wat im talking about thought. im talking street and nhb fights

Sorry MTisGreat...Don't think I'm trying to pick apart what you're saying, I just want to reinerate a point.

"No Holds Barred" fighting that is in a ring or an octagon cage, and has rules (however limited those rules are) is competition, not combat. I think that NHB fighting is tough as hell, and is a good thing for people to use as a training tool, but I feel that is as far as it goes.

Just my opinion! :soapbox:

[Cthulhu]

I've found that with my personal training, I would feel my training to be horribly deficient if I lacked either forms or fighting.

I look at it like this: forms, drills, and techniques are like the theory behind the system. It's the tools used to solve theoretical problems, like mathematics is to science. Fighting, even sparring, is application; using said tools to solve actual problems, like experiments in science.

It is my (personal) belief that, just as science needs math and experiment working to solve a problem, martial arts need forms and sparring/fighting for the same goal.

Cthulhu

[SolidTiger]

I think that when you practice alone it's better to do a form
then just drill yourself with kicks and punches. It is the closest
to really fighting, because you are using your imagination. The
fighting experiance is more then word can explain, because the
fighting knowledge that is gained like how to move away and
under or around kicks and punches. So I think sparing does teaches you skills that forms do not.

Thank You

SolidTiger

[ECYili]

I think that when you practice alone it's better to do a form then to drill yourself with punches and kicks.

I think this is partly true. Again form work is very important. But to me it's also important to practice your individual techniques. By strengthing those, your foundation will be strong and the techniques will keep getting stronger and faster. With out strong techniques the applications of the form you use in fighting or drills won't matter.
All in all it's just another piece of the puzzle needed to make the whole thing work.

[SolidTiger]

Yes I agree that you should practice all of your kicks and punches, but what I'm trying to say is that. Forms prepare you
for sparing with the movements of attacks and blocks, but your
only using your imagination. Your thinking this person is over
here, this person is attacking like this so I need to use this block
right here. You know things like that could help you decide your
next attack when fighting

Thank You

SolidTiger

[ECYili]

I totally agree, nce post:cheers:

[SolidTiger]

Thank you for agreeing ECYili, really everything you do in class
builds up your skill.

Thank you

SolidTiger

[Dronak]

Well, considering I haven't gotten far enough along to do any sort of sparring or combat training, I guess I can't really make a choice. I think others have brought up some good points though. Namely that both have their place. The forms help you practice your skills and you can look into them to find different ways to use each technique. You can practice them as if you had imaginary opponents around you attacking you and you were fighting them. Forms were designed with that intention anyway, right? The sparring and combat training helps prepare you for real fighting. That's where you learn things like distance and timing skills which our teacher recently pointed out are very important. He said that if you train only for tournaments (sport) and constantly pull your punches, when it comes to real fighting, you'll end up doing the same thing and always missing the target. This sort of stuff also gets you used to the actual contact you have in fighting, hitting another person. And of course, certain things can only really be done with another person. So I'd say both are important and each has its place in training.

[SolidTiger]

Yes I agree totalilywith you Dronak...

The two support each other, one can not be without the other.

Thank You

SolidTiger

[tshadowchaser]

Your thinking this person is over
here, this person is attacking like this so I need to use this block
right here. You know things like that could help you decide your
next attack when fighting




This statement above is quoted frpm a few posts befor. I think this is both true and false.
Yes you can think about the attacks and see them when doing forms, however if you have to think about what to do when fighting your going to get FUBAR.
Sorry but you dont have time to plan ahead in a fight it must be instinctive or you dont survive.

Shadow:asian:

[SolidTiger]

Yes when fighting their is a natural instinct that comes alone
with working hard always giving it a 100%, but you can't just
fight on instinct. You have to think fast and act, and also would
you attack with your instincts? I don't know, in order to use your
instinct you must predict what your opponent is going to do. "Is
he going to move up down to the left to the right". How esle do
you use your instinct it you don't know what's going to happen?
You might be right, but most of the time you will be wrong.

Thank you

SolidTiger

" It's not hard to walk and chew gum".

[tshadowchaser]

Full out fighting is done without a lot of thought. there just is not time to think what to do next. Your reactions must happen without takeing time to consider what to do. You must react sometimes befor you even realise that you have. The body must move befor the mind says "Lets fake left shoot low left thow stright punch."
instead you must react than look back late and say dar I just did " such and such" IMHO

[RyuShiKan]

There was a famous fighter (can't remember his name) when he knocked out his opponent that said it was the 1,000's and 1,000's of hours of training before hand that made that one punch possible.

[Bob Hubbard]

Well said. I've heard that somewhere too, but have no idea on the name either.

:asian:

[Dronak]

That reminds me of some saying I heard somewhere that goes something like, "I'm not afraid of the 1000 kicks you practiced once, I'm afraid of the one kick you practiced 1000 times." And yes, I've heard and suspect it to be true that in a real combat situation you're going to be doing more reacting and fighting on instinct than conciously thinking about moves. However, how do you train those movements to become unconcious? I believe that's where the forms help. If you train a form thinking, "this blocks an attack, then I strike like this" you're training not only the movements, but the application of the movements as well. That way when it comes to a combat situation and you get attacked, you can do that block/strike combination at an appropriate time without thinking about it. If you don't think about the applications of the moves at some point though, how are you ever going to know how you're supposed to use them? Real fighting might be mostly instinctual, but you've got to train those instincts somehow if you want them to be really effective. Just my thoughts.

[Damian Mavis]

People aren't going to like my opinion much and thats ok, I fully understand were you are coming from. I firmly believe the time you spend training your patterns is wasted time, that time would be better spent working on your reactions/reflexes and timing skills as well as fighting and learning proper techniques at full contact on a target. Yes I do patterns in my art but only because I have too. And every time I'm practicing them I'm thinking "god I could be fighting right now or working on the heavy bag".

Arts like Muay Thai have no patterns and yet are still steeped in tradition. I believe in traditional martial arts, I just don't think patterns are good training.

I run a traditional martial art school and I teach the patterns, I just don't enjoy it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[ECYili]

While I don't totaly agree with your ideas Damian. Again some of it I do. But the most important thing is if you can make what you do work, that's all that matters. All roads lead to the same place. Just train hard.

As far as training your forms/kata for fighting. Theres a few ways I go about doing. 1 is I do it the way it looks. I imagine what the attacks are coming from the way they were designed in the form. 2. I imagine that attacks are coming from different angle and sides, adds a different perspective to the techniqeus. 3. I don't think of anything, I put my attention on every movement and putting as much focus into them as possible.

So in a fight I'm not thinking, I connect with the attacker and he dictates what I do. What ever movement happens, happens. And what technique or break down happens, happens. I'm not concerned with that.

In a fight if your thinking about winning or loosing your treating it as a game and in a game someone has got to win and someone has got to loose. But if I just do my technique and movements the same way I do them in my forms and practice then it's not a game anymore. I don't care if someone is infront of me or not I do my techniques the same way.


Dan

[SolidTiger]

I think that in a fight you can not predict the moves of your opponent. You must react but if you react to fast or the technique
you use is not the right technique your in trouble. If your being
attacked, countering is a instinct I can use because I know the
targets is their for sure. I wouldn't attack on instinct unless I was
feeling desperate, and I needed to win. I think that you have a
certain amont of time to react, I mean if you didn't it will just be
one attack after another in a fight, and I never seen a fight so
entertaining.

Thank you

SolidTiger

[Bushido]

I do no form. I do alot of sparring and grappling. In order to improve your swimming ability, you must get into the water, in order to improve your fighting ability, you must fight.

Peacefully,

-Bushido

[Damian Mavis]

Amen

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[SolidTiger]

Originally posted by Bushido

I do no form. I do alot of sparring and grappling. In order to improve your swimming ability, you must get into the water, in order to improve your fighting ability, you must fight.

Peacefully,

-Bushido

So how do you practice when you are alone?

"How can you swim when you can't even get in the water".

Thank You

SolidTiger