What are your views?


:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What are your views?


:asian:

Well in this 21st century.. I think if anyone embarks on a Martial Arts journey it should be as equal as possible.. though I know in our Studio.. the females are not hit as hard as the males.. at least most of them.. We have a few that can take the hit without blinking an eye.. and we have a few males (same rank) that 'oomph' at the same strike..
Warmups are the same for males and females.. Pushups are demanded equally of either sex. none of these knee pseudo pushups.. ~!! and I've heard at the college.. the guys not wanting to stretch because they are not as limber as the girls.. (they stretch when I'm standing over them~!!!)
I know I pull a kick or punch when working with small females.. as far ast their stature.. There's one in particular who continually thinks she needs to prove something to herself when fighting me.. 5' 90 pounds if that.. and she charges..throws a tec.. I block shes right back in at my throat basically.. she knows that one punch or kick from me would knock her on her butt.. yet in she keeps coming.. *chuckles*
All in all.. I expect each student to give their all when in class.. and in return I give them mine..
there's always going to be circumstances, and if they arise.. the wise instructor deals with it accordingly :)

No, I feel that men and women should be delt with equally. The only time I pay any attention to the difference in sex is whne I am dealing with a technique that may put a woman in a compromising situation when doing a tech repeatedly. This did not use to be the case, but Tess pointed out that some of the women may feel uncomfortable with a younger male that has not learned to control himself yet. This does not apply to the more advanced students. I will discuss this more in detail with anyone off list.

I do not believe in different standards for women and men.

I do believe that differences should be made based on physical conditioning, previous injuries, etc, ..., .

This is based on an individual bases not on a predetermined pigeon whole.

Just my Opinion

Thanks

Rich
:asian:

Well, I don't think the standards should be different for women than for men. I believe that if you expect less of women because we are the "weaker" gender, then that is what we will become. I think some women don't work as hard as others because they aren't expected to, and because the standards for their success are set too low. I believe that, especially where self-defense is concerned, women should need to understand and do as much as men, no questions asked. We should have to do the same number of push-ups, sit-ups, jumping jacks, whatever, to ensure that we are in top condition. *breathes* Anyway. I'm all ranted out and I need sleep, so peace out!

Oos - :asian:
Quinn

the only differences between men and women's training in my instructor's studio:

1. girly pushups are tolerated but not encouraged

2. women are not kicked when they receive a belt. he'll grab our shoulder and sweep our feet so we fall flat on our arses instead. This is on account that a kick in the stomach could theoretically damage female reproductive organs, and more importantly, he doesn't want to be responsible if one of the women is pregnant and doesn't know it yet, and miscarries because of a belt test kick. It just ain't worth it.

other than that, I have the same requirements put on me as a guy of equal rank... I'm a brown belt, so if I get caught doing girly pushups, I get hollered at, but if a white belt girl does em, nobody's going to say anything.

If she is there learing to keep her a$$ in one piece when two lineman-sized goons try to rape and kill her in a parking lot, what good will double standards do her?

One of the best training partners I have ever had is a mother of three, hairdresser, aerobics instructor, smokes a pack a day and will literally tear your eyes out if you kick her in the stomach. She trains as hard as anyone I have ever known and is gracious enough to apologize after hacking.....a nice touch, to be sure :D

I have been known to be a bit oblique at times - should you need further clarification about my opinion please email me.

:apv:

I'm a little unsure about this. Do you mean in treatment at the school? I would definately not be held to the same standard as some men because I'm not their size. If you asked Dennis to bench press X weight and myself the same amount that would be just silly. He's much larger than me. If you asked Dennis to keep up with me on a jog there would be no way he could. My endurance on that particular task is greater. Can you clarify this for me?
:confused:

I believe that women and men should be treated equal. In my school, there is no distinction between men and women. We all do the warmups (crunches, pushups, stretches, kicking/punching drills, etc). Modified pushups are accepted, but women are encouraged to try 1 regular push up and try to increase strength and stamina. Technique and form/kata requirements are the same for everyone.

The men don't hit women as hard as they each other, but I have to say that I don't some women as hard as I hit the men. The women who are at my rank and size I hit a little harder that if I was working with a white belt. To me, that's just common sense. There are a few women who hit like hell though no matter who they are working with.

As for the kick at the end of the test, we just get kicked at the black belt level. And I have to say that, although I feared it when I first started training for my black belt, I was looking forward to it. The kick is supposed to be ceremonial; not to injure or hurt someone. I got kicked by 6 black belt men. The 1 other woman black belt was on vacation. I have to say my instructor and 2 others kicked harded than the others, but they all felt for me as I just went through 2 hours of hell.

Originally posted by Thundering Hammer

I believe that women and men should be treated equal. In my school, there is no distinction between men and women. We all do the warmups (crunches, pushups, stretches, kicking/punching drills, etc). Modified pushups are accepted, but women are encouraged to try 1 regular push up and try to increase strength and stamina. Technique and form/kata requirements are the same for everyone.


This is the same at my school as well. The only differences that I see between gender requirements would be in the strength requirement and level of contact for sparring. Pretty much everything else is nongender-specific.

WhiteBirch

I agree with whomever said standards based on previous injury and the like are tolorated, but on a case by case basis, not refinded by sex. I think smaller people will not be able to as much damage in a punch or kick as a larger person, but that goes for male or female.



7sm

The 'standards' of a System should be adhered to as established by its founder. Within the System there should be room for the instructor to allow for the differences in individual students. It seems to me that this concept already exists in American Kenpo. I have no idea what any of the other MA styles would do to accommodate the needs of their students, whether male or female, old or young, big or small, healthy or disabled.

Within a class or school's structure it seems to me that instructors are pretty free to apply 'standards' in whatever way will serve their own or the school's interests. If male instructors/students do not believe that women have a legitimate place in the dojo, 'standards' can easily be set to make it obvious to women who might have liked to participate, that they lack sufficient strength/skill/endurance to ever reach those 'standards' being portrayed.

If the implication is that women should be permitted to be sloppy and less skilled when performing techniques and forms, this can only serve to diminish the standard of the Art in the future. But, if it means that women are permitted to be smaller, weaker, or less physically developed than men, is that actually a reduction in the 'standards' of the system itself???

Inquiring minds want to know. :confused:

I don't think women should have a "lesser" standard in class. This is coming from a woman :p Like someone mentioned above, it's like saying it's ok for them to be "weak". Or giving them a false sense of confidence by not going hard on them (letting them win). The guy in the street that wants to rape her won't go easy on her. She should learn to "take a hit" and fight back in class where it's safer, before that guy gets to her.

I know the average woman is the "weaker" gender. But she can learn to "be a brute" like a man, like I did. When I first started, I couldn't punch to save my life, let alone kick. I was also affraid to get hit. Now .... I'm a lot different. I side-kicked a 250lb guy acrossed the dojang. If I throw a punch now, you'll feel it :EG: And when I spar, even if I'm getting pumbled, I still go after who I'm sparring. I don't care how big or what gender (unless it is a beginner .... then I go easy). I don't back away now.

This is my belief. It could be because I was attacked, but thanks to my training, I'm posting this today.:)

Originally posted by KenpoTess



Well in this 21st century.. I think if anyone embarks on a Martial Arts journey it should be as equal as possible.. though I know in our Studio.. the females are not hit as hard as the males.. at least most of them.. We have a few that can take the hit without blinking an eye.. and we have a few males (same rank) that 'oomph' at the same strike..
Warmups are the same for males and females.. Pushups are demanded equally of either sex. none of these knee pseudo pushups.. ~!! and I've heard at the college.. the guys not wanting to stretch because they are not as limber as the girls.. (they stretch when I'm standing over them~!!!)
I know I pull a kick or punch when working with small females.. as far ast their stature.. There's one in particular who continually thinks she needs to prove something to herself when fighting me.. 5' 90 pounds if that.. and she charges..throws a tec.. I block shes right back in at my throat basically.. she knows that one punch or kick from me would knock her on her butt.. yet in she keeps coming.. *chuckles*
All in all.. I expect each student to give their all when in class.. and in return I give them mine..
there's always going to be circumstances, and if they arise.. the wise instructor deals with it accordingly :)


I think Tess pretty much says it all, I'll go with her on this one!:asian:

I feel the standards for men & women should be that same. Women for the last decade have served proudly along side men in actual combat. The role of the woman in other countries in hand to hand combat or front line situations has changed in their favor. Arab terrorist's have used women in every facet of their organizational structure. The asian countries for years have been using women in combat; whether it be with physical object weapons or natural ones. In the martial arts community, women should be treated as equals in every facet of their training. Most men won't train within a system's school which abuses it's students physically, not to mention women! I would like my woman sifu to have just as much physical skill as my male sifu, if i were to train under her.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

As a 45 year old woman who has been involved in kenpo for the past six years, I do not think there should be any differences between standards for men and women. I don't want to be judged differently.

I believe we should all be looked at as individuals and will progress forward from the point at which we begin.

Of course, we all have differing strengths and weaknesses, but I don't think it serves any of us (men or women) to lump us into gender categories.

I deeply appreciate my sifu's ability to see each of us in our school as someone who can become their own best martial artist.

Oss
Judy aka warrior.mama

I am going to say something that is going to be unpopular but I think should be said. Men and women are diffrent and should train for those diffrences. Most of the time the men are going to be physically stronger and be more athletic. Let me say that it isn't that women arn't athletic just that the men have alot more choices in athletics at the present time, and while there are more and more women in sports everyday men are still more involved in heavier contact sports, and are more agressive by nature.
Also women need to have a better sense of themselves in a self defense situation, in most cases guys don't have to worry about being rapped and women do. I think all women should do at least basic grappling and sparring on the ground. I have seen alot of female athletes and martial artests that definitly have an over inflated opinion on there grappling ability, knowing technique is not enough you have to be able to do it in a situation where someone is resisting.
Another thing I noticed is that women after just a few months training feel way over confident in there abilities I think this is dangerous for everyone starting trianing but espically women.
My two cents. :idunno:

Especily in Grappling Style Martial Arts.

Strenth & Comfort can be a Problem in
This area.

Please define--carefully--the terms, "physically stronger," and, "more athletic."

As for the claim that women tend to be "more overconfident," it has been my observation that it's the boys who tend to do the most swaggering around, and to retain fantasies of invulnerability the longest, or grow them the quickest. They do the most waving it about, anyway, if you get my drift--but that's just a personal observation, which ain't worth much.

I'd add that if women are--if they are--overconfident, whose fault is that? Most martial arts instructors aren't women...

Oh yeah, one last thing. Perhaps either a) women have the most to gain in terms of confidence from martial arts on the whole, or b) men's reactions, on the whole, are often to try and shut women down in some fashion.

Hey, I've a related question: on the whole, do women make better students?

But Men by nature are stronger.

Ther are always exceptions to the rule.

China is Awsome :)

rmcrobertson,

Hey good post there.. i agree with on most of the statements...
AND as for you question... How you are as a student.. really can't be placed on a gender.. Ive seen both committed (and no not in a hospital) and non-committed students.. both male and female.. So it really just depends on the individual.. and their mindset!!
:asian:

"physically stronger,"- On average a man is stronger and larger then a women. While it is a proven fact that womens muscles outproform a male at the same weight for a single rep, as well as endurance training anything over 15 reps (facts from MM and Muscular development. The fact is men are bigger, if you can lift more then a man and you are 150 pounds what about the guy that is 180-190 or more. Not only that but I don't see that many girls walking around buffed out, there are a few but they are the exception. (example I am 189 pounds I haven't ever met a women that grappled or did martial arts that was stronger then me, Only one girl on the power lifting team could lift more then me in collage when I weighed 145 pounds and she had 35 pounds on me)

"more athletic."- I can see where I didn't explain what I meant by this one. I mean that most males that are in a physical confrontation or that are physicaly large have usally played sports. I am not sure what the current percentage is but in 1990 (73 1/2 percent of men played some sport in highschool, or in a club) not included in the survey was womens chearleading but womens participation in athletics was like (31 percent) I don't agree that chear leading is not a sport it takes alot of athletic talent to do some of that stuff.

I disagree with you about being overconfident. Go to a cardio kickboxing class or talk to a girl on the street, or someone that goes to one seminor that is like 2-6 hours long. Also alot of the women I have met at our DOJO are very closeminded and don't like to da any of the warm up exercises or any drills that make you sweetie or tired. Now I know this isn't the genaral attudide anywhere as there is one women in the class that would probley whoop 75% of the people there.

I agree with you that Men do try to shut women out and down and don't take them very seriously sometimes. It is a problem. I have seen it alot of the time women have to prove themselves to be taken seriously. I think that women are oversensitive about proving themselves though, I mean when a guy steps in the dojo he has to prove he is serious to. It isn't just a gender thing although women do take a little more abuse, due to the fact that most women that come in are not that serious about training.

To answer your question I think that dedicated women are the best students that there is.

I don't feel that there should be dual standards in training because out on the streets, dual standards don't existe. As hard is you train is as hard as you'll fight.

What do you think about this topic?

In both my karate and BJJ schools the standards are the same for men and women. Warm-ups the same, technique requirements, sparring...no differences.

Actually the only time I see any sort of adjustments or different requirements it is not because of gender but because of age or injury.

I dont think there should be different standards straight across the board. I think that each individual person should decide what they want their training to be like. It is THEIR training, after all.

If some people want different standards to account for size strength or flexibility differences, they should have them. But they shouldnt be forced onto everyone.

The only difference that I think should exist involves things that are largely strength-based - mostly around breaking; I am more impressed when my 12 year-old female student, who is 4'10" and weighs 80 pounds dripping wet, breaks 1 board with a side kick than when her 43 year-old father, who is 5'11" and weighs 180, breaks 3 - her break demonstrates much more technical proficiency than his. Other than that, the requirements are the same.

I believe that the only person you should be competing with is yourself..."am I better than I was last week?"

Not all girls are little cry babies...and not all guys are big tough jocks! Its silly to sterotype and have one standard for all!

At my old Dojo the instructor had a certain standard that he 'expected' all his dedicated students to reach if they wanted to get to black belt, we also competed with each other and were ranked in class at each grading. Now if you are super competitive this may inspire you to do better, but I believe for the most part it is detrimental to your progress. We had 35+ year olds competing with 16/17 year olds...it is absurd to expect all people to be able to perform at the same level physically.

Basically what it was is...here is the style, now you change to fit it! I found it quite refreshing to meet a Jujitsu teacher that told me the art is there to fit around me, so that I can take advantages of me strengths.

As a few have said each person should perform to 'THERE' best not someone else’s, weather it be a man compared to a woman, or an older MA'ist or someone with an injury, we are all on our own journeys.

I just wanted to point out that not ALL girls train for self defense reasons.. although this has merit, some of us train because we like it, not because we don’t want to be a victim, self defense skill are just a by product. So this does not have to be the primary focus of a womans training!

Different standards for men and women, no. Different expectations for different abilities, yes.

Most women will never be as strong as most men. Women just are not built with the same bone and musculature. So, I do think the standards should be altered for this fact but this fact only. For breaking, I had to adhere to guys standards less one brick, for knife hand. It was a big reach for me, but I trained it and other breaks for a year. The program should have requirements of breaking for each belt level so that it is a progression not a huge leap.

And then I don't think they should have it so easy either that they don't have to train (and kill their hand). If standards were changed for everyone, where would the line be drawn? For a true-life example: one woman has small wrists and hands so therefore can't break with the hands and doesn't train, but can do T bar pushups. Another woman has trained steadily and painfully on her non-writing hand because her other wrist never mended right from breaks as a child and has small hands too. Should the standards for breaking change for the first woman? NO. So slightlly different standards, but difficult for them and not customized necessarily to them either just to pass because they don't want to feel any pain. After all, 1st dan, 2nd dan should have standards that says they have attained it. TW

Different standards for men and women, no. Different expectations for different abilities, yes.

Sounds about right, this is an individual sport where personal progress / development seem to be the running themes. Everyone should judge themselves based on what they are capable of.

If someone comes in unable to do a single pushup, trains hard, drops 20lbs and is able to do 5 that is more of an accomplishment then someone that can do 50 bringing it up to 60.

Sorry Andrew,

But I have to disagree.

Why is learning to do 5 better than increasing it by 10? Just because you are already capable doesn't make it less worthwhile to improve yourself, does it?

Doing 5 from none is going to take more work then 10 more from 50. Not to mention the lifestyle changes that are going to have to come with dropping 20lbs and pulling off your first 5 good pushups.

Doing 5 from none is going to take more work then 10 more from 50. Not to mention the lifestyle changes that are going to have to come with dropping 20lbs and pulling off your first 5 good pushups.

I agree totally, coming from someone that had never done a pushup in my life before MA. The hardest thing was learning to do that first one...it was very difficult as I lacked that strength in my upper body!

Andrew is not saying an improvement of 10 from 50 is not fantastic, but it takes a lot more to just be able to do that first one when the body was not originally capable of it!

There is a difference in learning to do something new, and improving on something you can already do.

If the standard for black belt is to do fifty regular pushups, wouldn't it stand to reason that at each belt level there has to be improvement? Hey I couldn't stay in splits for a split Hindu type pushup to do 15 when I started at white belt let alone dip my chin to the floor. At blue belt I was finally able to do 200 split pushups, but couldn't do one regular one. My journey to do 50 at bb test was slow and painful. I figure if I could do it ANYONE that doesn't have a permanent disability (I had a painful wrist anyway) could do it. I did sets of ten building up the number in the sets until I was exhausted. I think I got to 400 of not so great ones in order to do 50 good ones. It does take determination, that is all. TW

I don't think there should be different standards. You all are learning the same thing so the same standards should apply. I do agree with taking into account previous injuries and what not.

And yes, guys are physically stronger than women. However, women have more tolerance for pain and a higher pain threshold than men. :cool:

The only difference I have from the men is that I have to modify my staff drills a little bit because of my boobs. :)

I had a converstation on another board similar to this one where the gentleman suggested that the Sifu (or Master...) should warn all the men in his class to "behave" when a woman joins his kwoon. I told him that I thought what he said was patronizing and sexist.

I don't tolerate hand-holding from anyone... well... if I was falling off of a cliff I'd expect SOME hand-holding... but just a little. ;)

::salute::

I personally, haven't ran into anything that I'd see as "because you're a woman...." Things such as sit-ups are modified, but there are reasons for that, and my rep goes up after I no longer have a dificult time with the previous amount. I'm the only woman in my class at the moment, and the majority of the guys are in real good shape.

What are your views?


:asian:Women are weaker than men physically, but mentally they have the advantage. Most men thing with the wrong head, and this can be capitalized on. Most men will underestimate a woman, which also can be capitialized on. A woman must be taught to take full advantage of these things, and they will be victorious. One weakness is all it takes to defeat an opponent if you are trained to recognize and capitalize. I have always felt that the more beautiful the woman, the more dangerous she is, providing she knows how to use it.

In Moo Sul Kwan for testing you are required to do a predetermined set of techniques, forms whatever. The women are not given prefential treatment. If you are physically capable of doing something you are supposed to show profeciency in the technique. Punch, kick, throw, jump spinning whatever.

Women are weaker than men physically, but mentally they have the advantage. Most men thing with the wrong head, and this can be capitalized on. Most men will underestimate a woman, which also can be capitialized on. A woman must be taught to take full advantage of these things, and they will be victorious. One weakness is all it takes to defeat an opponent if you are trained to recognize and capitalize. I have always felt that the more beautiful the woman, the more dangerous she is, providing she knows how to use it.
One advantage that women have is that they do not rely upon strength, an unknown factor. Most men I train with will use their strength to try to gain the advantage. That might work with me, but it's not necessarily going to work with everyone else in the class. But the guys will still try, because for those of average size and build, there's a good chance they will be stronger than at least some of their opponents, even if they will be weaker than others. But the average woman is rarely stronger than the average man, and she has lived her entire life with this knowledge. Women acquire skill because it's the only way to survive; men acquire skill to as a supplement to their strength. The strength of an assailant is an unknown variable; it's dangerous to assume the assailant will always be weaker and prudent to train as if the assailant will always be stronger. Women do this naturally, it's part of our physical identity. Men have to school themselves not to rely upon superior strength when training with smaller, weaker partners of either gender.
However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that women mentally have the advantage. In some ways, I'd agree. Women are apt students; they are open to learning, and not as inclined to overestimate their own skills nor understimate an opponent. Women are also sensitive and the so-called "women's intuition" is really just a survival skill. If you know you will not easily fend off danger, it is only logical to detect danger before it gets too close so you can run like hell rather than fight. And women can be deceptive and downright sneaky; a legitimate rape defense is feigning interest, flattery, even suggesting sexual acts to maneuver the attacker into a vulnerable position in order to incapicitate him. But men also have their own mental advantages. I'm afraid I'm not as familiar with these advantages, having the wrong set of chromosomes to comment extensively But I would venture that men are more bold in their martial actions. I realize by writing this, women will respond to say "we are bold, too, what are you saying?" Bold isn't always good, sometimes a more calculating approach is better. And vice versa. I think men and women have their own unique strengths and weaknesses and that we complement each other, which I daresay is how Nature intended us to be.
Whether or not a more beautiful woman is more dangerous than a plain one, well, Hollywood would have us think so. Icons like Trinity, Aeon Flux, Lucy Liu, the Bond girls, Emma Peel, and a myriad of others would suggest that lovely women are always more dangerous than plain ones. But nothing trumps skill, in my opinion. It's probably true that men do not expect a beautiful woman to be a good fighter. After all, if people enjoy looking at you, why learn to do anything else? People will like you even if you're dumb as a box of rocks. That's probably why people tend to express disbelief when they find out an attractive woman is a skilled martial artist. It's almost as if being pretty is supposed to be a hobby in and of itself. And for some women, it is. But being plain and unassuming is also a good decoy. When I tell men that I train frequently in a martial art, they invariably say "you don't look like a martial artist." Maybe because I don't have a tough, mean expression, nor do I walk with a swagger, I don't look like a tomboy, nor do I have an athletic build. I do look kind of soft and feminine, and I always wanted to look sporty and rugged, but hey, you have to work with what you've got. That men assume I know nothing about martial arts is just fine with me.

"Fighting skill should develop into an unconquerable weapon that cannot be seen until used nor taken away while its practitioner is still alive. -Vladimir Vasiliev

All the best,
Rachel