i hear hapkido is a knock off of akido. is that true or does it have its own origin?

no offense whatsoever!

almost completely different as far as curriculum. hapkido is alot of small circle joint locks, and aikido (from what ive studied) is an art that teaches using the attackers force against them, and weapons work. alot of the falling is the same in general though.

Hapkido and Aikido both come from Japanese JuJitsu.

Hapkido and Aikido stemmed form the same art af Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu under the teaching of Sokaku Takeda.

Brief Background on Hapkido Founder, Choi Yong Sul

During the Japanese occupation of Korea it was common for young boys to be sent to Japan to work. Choi Yong Sul was taken to Japan and lived with a candy store owner who did not care for him at all. (and you would think being an 8 year old boy working for a candy store owner would rock!?) Choi Yong Sul was abandoned and living in the streets before the police took him and placed him in a buddhist temple.

After some time living in the temple one of the monks asked him what he wanted to do with his life. Choi Yong Sul pointed to the murals on the wall of the monks training in the martial arts. This is when he was introduced to and taken in by the Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu master Sokaku Takeda.

Depending on who you talk to, you will hear he was treated as a servant to an adopted son. Either way, Choi Yong Sul stayed in the Takeda household for 30 years doing his duties and training in Daito Ryu (whether by private/group instruction or observing in secret). At the end of World War 2, when Sokaku Takeda died, Choi Yong Sul travelled back to Korea where he started teaching what he had learned in Japan. Originally, he called the style many things (Yu Sul, Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sul, Yawara, Hap Ki Yu Sul, etc.) before finally using the term we know today as Hapkido.

Take care :)

Hey all...

Well i can speak from experiecne.. having taken 2 yrs of Aikido and since Jan 02 been in Hapkido.. .there are huge differences... ummm let me see.. retaliation.. for one.. in aikido.. we never threw a punch or kicks.. we simply (as in earlier reply) used the attackers energy to get them away.. we did do utilize lots of pin (with joint lock) positions and throw tactics as well..
in Hapkido.. are main goal is still to get the attacker out of our way.. but we add a little pain for the attackers time & involvement with us... But there are some simlilar theories that we share... especailly with Aki-motion (using attackers energy flow) its cool... BUT alas.. the are truly 2 different styles.

that's my 2 cents
Later.........

OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH man here we go again. The only simularities between the two are that they use the same 3 chinese characters. Dats a All.:D

Like Arnisador stated, they have the same root but evolved in different ways.
Check out this site:

www.beckmartialarts.com/chkdfaq.html

Respectfully,

:asian:

Originally posted by Chris from CT

Hapkido and Aikido stemmed form the same art af Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu under the teaching of Sokaku Takeda.

Brief Background on Hapkido Founder, Choi Yong Sul

During the Japanese occupation of Korea it was common for young boys to be sent to Japan to work. Choi Yong Sul was taken to Japan and lived with a candy store owner who did not care for him at all. (and you would think being an 8 year old boy working for a candy store owner would rock!?) Choi Yong Sul was abandoned and living in the streets before the police took him and placed him in a buddhist temple.

After some time living in the temple one of the monks asked him what he wanted to do with his life. Choi Yong Sul pointed to the murals on the wall of the monks training in the martial arts. This is when he was introduced to and taken in by the Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu master Sokaku Takeda.

Depending on who you talk to, you will hear he was treated as a servant to an adopted son. Either way, Choi Yong Sul stayed in the Takeda household for 30 years doing his duties and training in Daito Ryu (whether by private/group instruction or observing in secret). At the end of World War 2, when Sokaku Takeda died, Choi Yong Sul travelled back to Korea where he started teaching what he had learned in Japan. Originally, he called the style many things (Yu Sul, Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sul, Yawara, Hap Ki Yu Sul, etc.) before finally using the term we know today as Hapkido.

Take care :) This the Hapkido verison of this story. If you ask someone who does Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is alot different. Basically the Aiki people don't believe that a Korean Child could come into Japan at that era and start taking Aikijutsu. I tend to believe the Aikijutsu story more so than the Hapkido verison. Here are my reasons:
First of all Aikijutsu is the art of war. If they didn't kill you they sent you home maim. (When used in combat.) This is no kids art especially back than.
Second I don't believe the Japanese people would teach a foreigner more so a Korean. This child was probably a servant (slave) and watch as they preform the Aikijutsu. Motobu Ryu which is Okinawan, Chokki Motobu was not promented to do his family's art. Only the eldest son was. Chokki watch through a peep hole in a fence as his father and oldest brother workout.
Final Aikijutsu doesn't do all the fancy kicks that Hapkido does and the locks are do differently also. You could say a rose and dandelion are the same. In some ways they are, but alot of ways they are very different.
Bob
:asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
This the Hapkido verison of this story. If you ask someone who does Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is alot different. Basically the Aiki people don't believe that a Korean Child could come into Japan at that era and start taking Aikijutsu. I tend to believe the Aikijutsu story more so than the Hapkido verison.

Everyone has a version. The one I mentioned is just one of many, take it for what it's worth. :)

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Final Aikijutsu doesn't do all the fancy kicks that Hapkido does and the locks are do differently also. You could say a rose and dandelion are the same. In some ways they are, but alot of ways they are very different.

There are different versions of Hapkido. There are two main lines.

1. Choi Yong Sul's Style

2. Ji Han Jae's Style (Choi Yong Sul's student)

GM Ji Han Jae is one of the main people who added the huge arsenal of kicks to Hapkido. Alot of the Hapkido people see is from GM Ji Han Jae's lineage. There are very few who train under the Choi Yong Sul Style of Hapkido now-a-days. Among those people who do are GM Lim Hyun Su, GM Chang Chin Il and GM Kim Yun Sang. There are others who trained under Dojunim Choi, but they have altered what they have learned (Which doesn't make it wrong, just different). Dojunim Choi Yong Sul's style, that he taught, was more along the lines of Aikijujutsu. It didn't have the flashy kicks, but I can see where you would get that idea.

Take care :asian:

In its true form, they are the same. There are different versions of each which may feel like it's different but...

The founder of hapkido and aikido learned from who? Of course it's going to have basically the same basic principles.

Second I don't believe the Japanese people would teach a foreigner more so a Korean
Both TKD and TSD are modified Shotokan, taught by Japanese to Koreans.I don't see why there would be a different attitude in regaurd to Aikido.
Final Aikijutsu doesn't do all the fancy kicks that Hapkido does and the locks are do differently also
A fellow instructor at the dojang I teach at (Tae Kwon Do) also does Hapkido.He says that the locks are differently applied than that of Aikido, this is his statement - I have experience in this.
Also this particular Hapkido class uses only low line kicking methods.He said that often members of other clubs will come and train with his class and some of these use "fancy kicks" as Kempojujutsu calls them.This seems to be the case when Hapkido and TKD are taught in the same dojang.Sort of an "in school" cross training.
Again this is not info. from my own experience, so I don't take it as gospel.However, this individual is someone I trained from white to black belt myself.I have watched his progress over the years and trust his judgement.:asian:

Fissure, You said "Both TKD and TSD are modified Shotokan, taught by Japanese to Koreans. I don't see why there would be a different attitude in reguard to aikido.
First of all Aikido is not the art I am talking about is Aikijujutsu.
Second the Japanese attitude change after the U.S.A nuked there butts. Before this they had bad attitude to ALL FOREIGNERS. Before WWII started Japan was kicking everyone's butt, including Korea. And before that can't remember the year. But when Captain Cook sailed into Toyko Bay. The Japanese where not to happy to have foreigners on thier land. They didn't come out and say. Hey why don't you guys study some aikido, jujutsu with us. To make this short and simple Japan hated ALL FOREIGNERS INCLUDEING CHINESE, KOREANS, AND EVEN AMERICANS. So if they had this type of attitude why would they teach some korean kid, aikijujtsu. Also there are NO RECORDS OF CHOI YOUN SUL in DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU BY THE JAPANESE PEOPLE. I believe that is where the conflict in the story starts. Japanese people say there are no records of this person. Koreans say he study Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Also there are NO RECORDS OF CHOI YOUN SUL in DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU BY THE JAPANESE PEOPLE. I believe that is where the conflict in the story starts. Japanese people say there are no records of this person. Koreans say he study Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

This may not be entirely correct. I wrote in another post...

Originally posted by Chris from CT
I contacted the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Hombu in Abashiri, Hokkaido and I received a responce from Kobayashi Y., the Hombu Secratary. He states that "Choi Yong Sul has studied for some years with Takeda Sokaku, then he has founded his School inserting only some elements of our art."

from: http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479 (5th post in)


They must have some record of it for the Hombu to say that.

In the above post there are a few points of view about what people in Hapkido think.

Respectfully :asian:

First of all Aikido is not the art I am talking about
Maybe not, but it is the art that this thread is talking about.I have no idea if some Korean kid/slave/servant/circus clown or what ever trained with a Japanese candy store owner or not.Your statemnt that it could not happen because he would be hatted by the Japanese makes little sence to me.In nazi Germany, some Germans helpped Jews.Using your logic this could never have happened.
I'm not dissputing your claim that this "kid trained by way of a candy store dude" is false, I'm simlpy stating that it is possible.(the previous post by Chris seems to support this, at least apon it's face value)
I notice that you didn't reply to the meat of my post, concerning the addition of kicking motions in Hapkido, what if any are your thought on this?If you respond IN ALL CAPITALS AGAIN, I'M SURE IT WILL HELP US ALL UNDERSTAND YOU BETTER:D
My interest here is in actual comparisons of two MA, both tech. wise and in applicational theory, not in candy store owners and peep holes.

Hapkido is closer to Modern day Jujutsu A.K.A Small circle jujutsu than Aikijujutsu. At one time it could of be an offshoot of Aikijujutsu. The main defference between Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu is the circluar movements. Aiki used large movements to avoid being cut by samurai swords where jujutsu movements are smaller and don't deal with samurai swords. As for kicks Combat Hapkido as far as I see uses more low line kicks. I also have seen other styles of hapkido that is basically TKD with some jujutsu mixed in it. The art I teach is Kempojujutsu which is closer to Aikijujutsu and is not even close to what some people call American Kenpo.
Bob:asian:

Originally posted by fissure
Maybe not, but it is the art that this thread is talking about.I have no idea if some Korean kid/slave/servant/circus clown or what ever trained with a Japanese candy store owner or not.Your statemnt that it could not happen because he would be hatted by the Japanese makes little sence to me.In nazi Germany, some Germans helpped Jews.Using your logic this could never have happened.

I'm not dissputing your claim that this "kid trained by way of a candy store dude" is false, I'm simlpy stating that it is possible.(the previous post by Chris seems to support this, at least apon it's face value)


Small misunderstanding. The Japanese candy store owner brought Choi Yong-Sul over to Japan to work for him. It was very common during the Japanese occupation of Korea for the Japanese to take Korean boys back with them to work. GM Choi never trained under the candy store owner. Choi Yong Sul was abandoned after going to Japan with him, picked up by the police and brought to a Buddhist temple. After he left the Buddhist temple is when his martial arts training began.

Sourse: Interviews with Choi Yong-Sul and Suh Bok-Sub (GM Choi's first student)


Originally posted by fissure
I notice that you didn't reply to the meat of my post, concerning the addition of kicking motions in Hapkido, what if any are your thought on this?

If you get some time, this thread discusses where many of the kicks in Hapkido come from.
http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479

Originally posted by fissure
My interest here is in actual comparisons of two MA, both tech. wise and in applicational theory, not in candy store owners and peep holes.

:D

We should get some Aikidoka here to discuss how they do things also. Then we can compare and contrast. This way we can have a knowlegable discussion.

Take care :)

I found this artical in 1994 issue of Black Belt. For you that think you may have this issue. It has a white cover page with Bruce Lee on the front. The artical is Battle of the Arts: Jujutsu vs. Hapkido. I want to mention this me quoting the artical and this is where I got my info from the previous post.
"Some proponents date Hapkido's origin back sveral centuries, making unsubstantiated references to Buddhist monks and royal court guards. Others note that the characters for hapkido are pronouned in japanese as "aikido", and they mistakenly assume this demostrates a relationship between the two arts. The most convincing claims, however, come from Choi Yong Sool (1904-1987), widely consider the founder of hapkido. Before he died, Choi insisted he had studied Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu for more than 20 years in Japan under master Takeda Sogaku (1860-1943). Kim Jeong-Yoon a martial arts researcher in Seoul, South Korea, says Choi was orphaned at the age of 8 or 9, then taken to Japan by a japanese family. Kim claims Choi spent four years living in a temple before Takeda, a close friend of the abbot, took him in. Choi clean Takeda's dojo for 5 years, after which the master permitted him to learn Aikijujutsu.
Yet Hapkido's history is not so cut and dried. Responding to Choi's obituary in April 1987 Black Belt, a writer for Aiki News denied in the Japanese Magazine that any of Takeda's offical students recordslist Choi as having studied with the headmaster. Furthermore, the writer seems indignant that Chang Chin-il, heit to Choi's hapkido system and author of the obituary, suggested a Japanese family as respected as Takeda's would adopt a Korean. In the April issue of Aiki News, he wrote Choi was certainly not adopted into the Takeda family and the statement about the length of training and proximity to Sogaku... should be taken with a certain skepticism.
Many aikijujutsu exponents insist the lowly Choi could not have learn their art legitimately, and that if he did acquire any skill in the style, he did so only by watching practice sessions. Yet in February 1987 Black Belt, Aikijujutsu researcher and instructor Bernie Lau wrote that one of the more famous styles related to Daito-Ryu is Hapkido. Lau also noted that Akikido founder Morihei Uyeshiba, a longtime student of Takeda, was of social postion so far below the rest of Takea's disciples that he could not even get a proper recommendation to study under Takeda. Yet Uyeshiba did study under Takeda. Couldn't Choi have done the same?"

Boy are my fingers killing me now :rofl:

I want to ask how does Hwa Rang Do fit into this? Wasn't this art a very old art. Again I don't know much about it, but I thought had read it was developed back when Korea was having it's own civil war? Could this be true? And could Hapkido orgin came from it? Just brainstorming, and hope I didn't offend anyone.
Bob:asian:
P.S I also found an artical talking about the difference in Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu. But i am going to give my fingers a rest and get ready for my fantasy football draft :rofl:

Time To Hear From A Hap Ki Doist

I am a traditional hap Ki Doist studying under Grandmaster Jung Bai Lee. My teacher studied under a Buddhist whose name I have not been told, Ji Han Jae, and Yong Sul Choi. He studied with Choi until he passed away. I have discussed much of these debates with my teacher. My knowledge of these topics comes from one of the highest-ranking Hap Ki Doist in the world.
Aikido V/S Hap Ki Do: The two styles share very little in the way of similarities except Chinese characters in their names. Where Aikido or even small circle Aikido (Tomiki Aikido) Use their hand techniques, they rarely if ever trap their opponent’s body parts to keep them from letting go or pulling away and causing more damage. They have nothing in the way of striking techniques. We have quite a bit in the way of powerful and fluid striking techniques. We are a combat Martial Art, Combat proven. We train to fight against trained fighters and Martial Artists. As well, in the higher ranks we have offensive techniques. Our goal is to inflict as little damage as needed, but even the techniques that are used for this application have devastating potential.
Combat Hapkido V/S Traditional Hap Ki Do: The system of Hapkido developed by John Pelegrini is a good and effective system. Its major differences are that they have cut out techniques that he has deemed unnecessary. A traditional Hap Ki Doist Will learn many more techniques than the Combat Hapkidoist. Techniques like Judo defenses. Where Pelegrini sees these to be not needed what has been done is, effective techniques have been removed from the curriculum. Virtually every hand technique we use has a punch defense application, even those “unnecessary” techniques that Pelegrinis style has removed. His idea was to teach people combat techniques and use them with complete aggressiveness from day one. We break everything down to its simplest, yet still effective, parts and refine as you master and understand each technique. This makes learning easier and you learn to use each tech. at a different level and with multiple applications. We are also taught with our kicks when is best to apply. We have more kicks than TKD and do them differently. We never snap any kick, as it can cause damage to the knee if hyper-extended and with practice over time. We are taught that high kicks are used for finishing, in correlation with strike combinations, and when possible certain high kicks are great surprise kicks. Never do we initiate with a roundhouse or high sidekick, unless you want to lose the fight. All styles are great, but you have to decide what is most suited for you and your body type.

As far as this history debate, I want everyone to look at things with an open mind. Choi was taken in as a servant when he was a child. After a few years of servitude his master had developed parental emotions for this young child from another country. Even though it may have been unheard of because of how the culture was, the master of the house taught this child the family business. Because of the attitude of the time, race, and community all of the teachings had to be from observations and private tutelage. It is a given that because being a man of such high status, he could not record this boy as a student, or probably even let on about his feelings for this child. But never the less this man taught his knowledge to a small foreign boy who became like a son. This is a highly possibly scenario. Just because people disregard the possibility out of racisms doesn’t mean it isn’t so. It has happen throughout history in all different cultures. Even if this never happened it is obvious that Choi learned somewhere. This cannot be argued. Either way Hap Ki Do has become an effective and formidable martial art.
As far as Hwa Rang Do is concerned, it is said that its techniques and philosophies are HKD’s base. True, I don’t know. But it is true that the people who developed current day HRD and Kuk Sool Kwan both studied Hapkido and developed what is their system now, from Hap Ki Do.

:cool:

The system of Hapkido developed by John Pelegrini is a good and effective system.
I knew a John Pelegrini, in Ft. Laurderdale/ Pompamo, or some place down there.This was 15- 20 yrs ago.He was a TKD instructor.This is probably a different guy though.

Originally posted by fissure
I knew a John Pelegrini, in Ft. Laurderdale/ Pompamo, or some place down there.This was 15- 20 yrs ago.He was a TKD instructor.This is probably a different guy though.

It might have be him.

Take care :)

Kuk sool Won is based on more than just Hap Ki Do. It is true that Grandmaster Suh did train with a Hapkido master while the grandmaster for Hwa Rang Do was there. There is still some debate about the relationship between all 3 arts.
Here is a link to the history pre-1910. http://www.kuksoolwon.com/histpre1910.htm#hISTORY%20BEF1910

Please also look at the post 1910 as that explains Grandmaster Suh's training. http://www.kuksoolwon.com/histpost1910.htm
Thanks.:asian:

I think something needs to be brought up here. Bob is correct in saying that Choi Youn Sul never studied Daito ryu under Sokaku Takeda sensei.

The reasons for this are well documented. Takeda sensei had maticulous records of *every* student that he ever instructed. Even during seminars that he gave, each and every person who attended had to write their name in his ledgers. There were a handful of people from Korea, none of them were the founders of Hapkido.

The evidence stands pretty clear. The only people that are claiming Hapkido to be decendant of Daito ryu are Hapkido people. There is proof documented on paper that Choi Youn Sul was never a Daito ryu student. There is also nothing beyond his words claiming that he was.

ok aikido was my first martial art, but it was only a year, and i retained little. so here's the outsiders perspective:
aikido is a very young martial system and hapkido is even newer. so why the heck is there a descrepency on their origins?
and my next question is, I have heard from many people that aikido developed from qin na(china), is there truth to this? qin na has been around for a long time and the qin na relationships are also close (maybe even closer) to hapkido.
so are jujutsu and qin na related?


give me some thoughts, i would like to know the ties.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
The evidence stands pretty clear. The only people that are claiming Hapkido to be decendant of Daito ryu are Hapkido people. There is proof documented on paper that Choi Youn Sul was never a Daito ryu student. There is also nothing beyond his words claiming that he was.

Hi, Jay. Yes, they had meticulous records and some say that Choi Yong Sul never studied under him, but the Daito Ryu Hombu says that he did study under Takeda Sensei. This information was from Kobayashi Y., the Hombu Secratary on Monday, March 11, 2002.

I wrote it down in a post here...

http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479
I believe it's the 5 post in.

In that post is my point of view of GM Choi studying with Takeda Sensei. If he did great, if he didn't so be it. I'm just passing the info along.

Take care. :)

I contacted the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Hombu (head school) in Abashiri, Hokkaido and I received a responce from Kobayashi Y., the Hombu Secratary.

That's truly odd...the Shinbukan is located in Tokyo from what I understand. I'm curious to which "hombu" you contacted. Being that there are various lines of Daito ryu, the mainline being under Kondo sensei at the Shinbukan...

If this is the same group that was offering an uchideshi program, then it is not the mainline Daito ryu. There was much debate about this group some time ago. They claimed to be mainline and were not.

It's agreed that Hapkido principally developed from jujutsu, right? We're just talking about which particular system of jujutsu it came from?

Originally posted by Jay Bell
That's truly odd...the Shinbukan is located in Tokyo from what I understand. I'm curious to which "hombu" you contacted.

I'm not sure which one either, but here is the website...

http://www.daito-ryu.com/

There used to be an English option. Now it's in only in Italian. This is the group where I got the info.

Please, let me know which this is.

Take care. :asian:

Hi Chris,

I honestly think that is the group that Stanley Pranin (Aikido Journal) wrote and dug into their claims.

Anyway..I found this information that I thought might be interesting from Mr. Pranin's site -

CHOI, YONG SUL
(20 July 1904-29 November 1986). B. Daegue, Korea. The founder of the Korean martial art of HAPKIDO (written with the same Chinese characters as aikido). Some sources claim that Choi was adopted into the family of Sokaku TAKEDA and lived and trained with him for 30 years and became his leading student and teaching assistant. An initial analysis of the extant DAITO-RYU documents and questioning of Takeda's son Tokimune have failed to bring to light any evidence in support of this claim. When queried about this matter, aikido DOSHU Kisshomaru UESHIBA stated that he was told that Choi, together with a number of Korean nationals, had participated in a Daito-ryu seminar in Asahikawa City in Hokkaido during the period when Morihei UESHIBA was residing there. However, he has not been able to confirm this. Another source states that Choi used the name "Tatsujutsu Yoshida" while in Japan. This author has perused a book on Hapkido and did find a number of techniques bearing a close resemblance to Daito-ryu and aikido arts. In any event, what, if any, exposure Choi had to Sokaku Takeda or Morihei Ueshiba is unclear and further research will be required to elucidate this matter.


HAPKIDO
A Korean martial art created by YONG SUL CHOI shortly after World War II which is reputed to have a historical relationship to DAITO-RYU JUJUTSU. An analysis of the techniques of Hapkido does reveal certain similarities, however, this claim has so far been undocumented.

Also..I'm not sure if you have the book or not, but Daito ryu Aikijujutsu - Conversations with Daito ryu Masters is a great reference into the school. It details all of Sokaku sensei's long time students...Choi not being any of them.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Hi Chris, I honestly think that is the group that Stanley Pranin (Aikido Journal) wrote and dug into their claims...

...When queried about this matter, aikido DOSHU Kisshomaru UESHIBA stated that he was told that Choi, together with a number of Korean nationals, had participated in a Daito-ryu seminar in Asahikawa City in Hokkaido during the period when Morihei UESHIBA was residing there. However, he has not been able to confirm this...

...This author has perused a book on Hapkido and did find a number of techniques bearing a close resemblance to Daito-ryu and aikido arts...

To me, I find it hard to believe that someone could come up with a system as similar to Daito Ryu and as complex as Hapkido from one seminar. Now I'm not talking about some jointlocks thrown together to add into some system, but the principles of body mechanics, movement, energy and blending that can be witnessed from GM Choi's talented students.

I would love to check out some good Daito people around here. It would be cool to kick back (no pun intended :)) and discuss some of this stuff, see and feel the techniques. If anyone knows any Daito Ryu practitioners in the Northeast please let me know.

I would think that there would be a greater chance that GM Choi could have been the house servant for 30 years observing than just participating in a seminar or two.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
In any event, what, if any, exposure Choi had to Sokaku Takeda or Morihei Ueshiba is unclear and further research will be required to elucidate this matter.

It sucks that we may never know for sure. :(

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Also..I'm not sure if you have the book or not, but Daito ryu Aikijujutsu - Conversations with Daito ryu Masters is a great reference into the school.

No, but I would love to pick it up.

Take care. :asian:

Greetings everyone,

As far as the history is concerned, my experience has been that the complete truth can never be found. Since most nationalistic movements in different countries, most historial datas have been changed, rewritten, and exaggerated to a certain extent.

I have been involved in MA for 26 years now and have studied various systems. There are similarities between all MA systems. One reason being the cultural exchanges between nations and adaptations of new ideas into various fighting systems. Okinawans and Japanese learned from Chinese, and added new ideas learned to their own fighting system. The same goes for Koreans who learned from Chinese and Japanese, therefore evolving their fighting arts.

The resemblance of systems of Tang Soo Do now going by the name of Soo Bahk Do, and Tae Kwon Do to Japanese systems of Karate is too strong to be denied. Have these systems evolved during the last few decades? Yes. Do they teach techniques particular to themselves? Yes. Are they as effective? Yes. But still the base of these systems are the same.

The same can be argued for Judo pronounced
Yudo in korean, Aikido pronounced HapKiDo, and arts that evolved from combination of HapKido and other systems such as Kuk Sool Won(sp?), and Hwarang Do.

Can we say that Jujutsu systems incorporated techniques and ideas from Chin-Na and Chinese/Mongolian wrestling arts? You Bet. Are Japanese going to deny it? You bet.

So you see everyone is going to claim something to further their purpose, some partially true and some preposterous. If you like what the system teaches, study it, master it and pass it on. It does not really matter who the founder/s is/are. If the idea is logical and works why not? If the techniques are applicable use them and don't be bound by names and exaggerated histories.

Now lets get to the technical questions, shall we?

Aikido and Hapkido systems both use small and wide circle projections. Both systems use Atemi(strikes) although more modern Aikido systems that I know of are devoid of kicks, and if kicks are used they are limited to stomping and front snapping kicks only. I once heard that kicks in Koryu schools of Bujutsu/Budo are considered impolite. Go figure this one out! Hapkido's canon of strikes seems to be more advanced since over the years Korean Kenpo (such as Tae Kyon) was incorporated into their curriculum. As an outsider I must say that HapkiDo has more of a Jujutsu flare than Aikido. Lastly the presence and influence of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu either directly and indirectly is apparent in both systems.

Respectfully,

:asian:

p.s. I believe I have posted these site before, but here they are again, worth the reading for history junkies like myself.LOL
www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html
www.beckmartialarts.com/chkdfaq.html

Originally posted by MTisGreat

i hear hapkido is a knock off of akido. is that true or does it have its own origin?

no offense whatsoever!


The Japanese Kanji are the exact same for Aikido and Hapkido.
The Korean founder of Hapkido studied in Japan and then returned to Korea.

One thing Koreans hate is Japanese stuff.......so much so that very few Koreans will ever admit things like Tang Soo Do is actually Karate do written in the way it used to be in Okinawa, or Hapkido came from Aikido.
Granted the Koreans added and delted things from each art they brought over but they are essential the same.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu



This the Hapkido verison of this story. If you ask someone who does Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is alot different. Basically the Aiki people don't believe that a Korean Child could come into Japan at that era and start taking Aikijutsu. I tend to believe the Aikijutsu story more so than the Hapkido verison. Here are my reasons:
First of all Aikijutsu is the art of war. If they didn't kill you they sent you home maim. (When used in combat.) This is no kids art especially back than.
Second I don't believe the Japanese people would teach a foreigner more so a Korean. This child was probably a servant (slave) and watch as they preform the Aikijutsu.

Koreans in Japan at that time were basically slave labor. They may or may not have been paid a wage but for practical purposes they were basically slaves.
I doubt very much that he was treated with any amount of respect.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Motobu Ryu which is Okinawan, Chokki Motobu was not promented to do his family's art. Only the eldest son was. Chokki watch through a peep hole in a fence as his father and oldest brother workout..

Choki Motobu was not permitted to have a good education martial or otherwise because he was the son of his father's mistress.
Choki and Choyu were only half brothers.

You can argue Yada vs Yada and blabla vs Blabla. the fact is we will never truly know. Choi studied somewere sometime, and began an art that without a doupt is increadable and combat effective. These points I dare anyone to honestly argue. This is all that truly matters.

:soapbox:

And now for my version :)
As my Sabum told me:
"Hapkido is really nasty Aikido, enough so that that they are indeed to different arts. The influence of other Korean arts has had a major effect on how hapkido evolved They are releated way back when, but have evolved along diffrent paths. Now stop talking and get on the mat Mr. Maxwell, and show me some Hapkido!! I'll answer your questions later!"

I didn't know the two arts were so closely related...

does anyone else have more info?

More information...

The only problem with more information is that there is an enormous potential to become ugly...

The following is the infamous interview that Choi gave regarding Daito ryu and Takeda sensei. The interview was done in 1982 during his visit to the us:


Mr. Choi, under what circumstances did you come to live in Japan?

When I was a child I lived in the village of Yong Dong in Choong Chung Province, Korea. At this time there were many Japanese people in my region because of the Japanese occupation of Korea. I became acquainted with a Mr. Morimoto, who was a Japanese businessman and candy store owner. Morimoto had no sons. When the time came for him to return to Japan he abducted me and took me with him to Japan, intending that I would become his son. I did not like this man and because of my constant protest and crying he abandoned me in the town of Moji soon after we came to Japan. From Moji, I traveled alone to Osaka. I soon gave myself up to despair and while crying and wandering aimlessly, I was picked up by the police. When the authorities found out that I had no family in Japan, they arranged for me to be cared for at a Buddhist temple. I lived there for about two years under the care of the monk Kintaro, Wadanabi.

How old were you when you were abducted?

I think about 8 years old.

What circumstances placed you in the home of Takeda, Sokaku?

While living in the temple, I was fascinated by murals of battles and paintings of famous martial arts scenes displayed throughout the temple. When the time came, Wadanabi asked me what direction I wanted my life to take. I immediately pointed to a scene on the wall depicting the martial arts and said this is what I want to be. Kintaro, Wadanabi was a close friend of Takeda, Sokaku and arranged my introduction to him. Takeda, Sokaku liked me and feeling great sympathy for my situation, decided to adopt me. Upon my adoption he gave me the Japanese name Asao, Yoshida. I was about 11 years old at this time.

In what city was the Buddhist temple that was your home?

Kyoto.

In what area was Takeda, Sokaku’s home and dojang (school) located?

His home and school were located on Shin Su Mountain in the area of Akeda.

What was the nature of your training under Takeda, Sokaku?

Takeda, Sokaku was the head of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu. I lived in his home and learned under his personal direction for over 30 years. I was his constant student, and for twenty years of my training, I was secluded in his mountain home.
Takeda was the teacher of the Japanese royal family.

Were you personally involved in teaching the royal family?

Yes, at that time I was my teachers’s assistant in all of his instruction. While in Tokyo, we also taught high ranking government officials within the palace circle. Also, we traveled to various parts of Japan and taught select groups of people.

Did you ever leave Japan with Master Takeda for any exhibitions or teaching outside of Japan?

Yes, when I was about 28 years old it was arranged by politicians for my teacher and his most outstanding students to travel to Hawaii in order to give an exhibition tour.

What was your personal status on this tour?

I was the leader of the exhibition team under the direction of my teacher.

How many people were on the exhibition team and can you recall the names of any of the participants?

At the time of the Hawaiian tour there were five of us; Takeda, Sokaku, myself (Asao, Yoshida), Jintaro, Abida and two others whose names I cannot at this time recall.

When you returned from Hawaii were there any significant changes in your life?

No, we continued to tour and teach and at the same time I continued to learn through Master Takeda’s instruction.

How was your life affected by the outbreak of World War II?

World War II changed things in many ways. My teacher and I worked for the government by capturing military deserters that would hide in the mountains near our home. We would return these men, unharmed, to the authorities. The most significant changes happened toward the end of the war. Japan was losing the war and in a last desperation effort the government instituted a special military draft that called up most of the prominent martial artists of the time. These highly trained people were conscripted into special guerrilla-type units that were dispersed throughout the war zone. All of the inner circle of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu were drafted except Master Takeda and myself. Most were killed in the final fighting of the war.

Why were you not drafted along with the others?

I was going to be drafted but Takeda, Sokaku intervened. Through his status and influence, he had me hospitalized for minor surgery. This stopped the process of my conscription and prevented me from being drafted. He prevented me from being put into the war because he felt that if I was killed Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu would be lost in its completed form upon his death.

How many separate techniques had Takeda, Sokaku developed and mastered in his system?

3808.

How many of these techniques have you personally mastered?

Shortly before he died, my teacher informed me that I was the only student that he had schooled in all of his secrets and techniques.
Do you know the circumstances of Takeda, Sokaku's death?

Yes, he ended his life by refusing to eat.

Why did he do that?

Japan had never before been defeated in war. Takeda, Sokaku felt that a great shame and loss of face had been perpetrated on his ancestors by Japan's defeat at the hands of the Allies. Being a man of leadership, he felt a strong personal responsibility in this defeat. Becase of this strong feeling, he decided that his only honorable path was to end his life.

Did Master Takeda make any final statements to you before his death?

He said goodbye to me and spoke of my long time desire to return to Korea. He bid me to do so. He was concerned that because of my position in his household and because of my Korean heritage, that I would be assassinated if I remained in Japan. Had I remained after his death to succeed him, it would have been dangerous.

When did you return to Korea?

I returned, with my household, shortly after Takeda, Sokaku’s death.

Where in Korea did you settle?

We settled in Taegu Kyung Buk Province. Here I established my first Korean dojang, and have made my home here ever since. After returning I changed my name back to Choi, Yong Sul and the name of my art to Hapkido.

This entire interview cannot be validated. The only confirmation of Choi and *any* Daito ryu study seems to come from one seminar.

The claims of him potentially succeeding Takeda sensei is absolutely absurd. Daito ryu is passed through the Takeda family.

Oh right...I forgot...Choi was adopted by Takeda. :rolleyes:

Now...before the boulders start coming loose, I need to make something clear. I think Hapkido is a wonderful art. Choi had enormous talent to be able to formulate this art.
However...making up stories to be accepted is rediculous. I truly believe this is what was done. There is no documentation to support Choi's above claims. He apparently was seen *once* in Hakkaido at a seminar.

The fact that Hapkido is a wonderful art does *not* give validation to Choi's claims.

The fact that a Korean servant is not documented in Japan makes sense. Why does everyone find that hard to believe? Why would he be documented, he was a Korean house boy. If Takeda liked him and wanted to teach him outside of regular class, there is plenty of time in a day to do so (and over 30 years).
The fact that Choi knew Takeda and knew an advanced form of whatever you want to call it remains. If Choi was not a part of Takedas household, how the heck would he even know the mans name? Why, knowing the racial tensions between Japan and Korea, would Choi go back to Korea and make this claim? Wouldn't it go against him? I don't doubt he embelished a bit of his story to make himself more important, (it seems to be commen in Korea) but it is possible.

Choi wasn't the only Korean doing aikido, aikijutsu or jujitsu. A number of others were as well. He gets credited for its development...but he clearly wasn't the only one teaching stuff of this nature in post WWII Korea.



Regards,

Steve Scott