I am looking for any historical documentation of the Shito Ryu Founder Mabuni Kenwa and his Jujutsu training.

Jim Mc Coy

Excellent McCoy sensei! Let us discuss these lesser-known facts of Karate :)

This page here has the relevant information which lead into this thread

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25798&page=1&pp=15

Let me quote one of the interesting information being discussed here, courtesy of MT's own George Kohler of the Genbukan.



Just call me George.

As far as I can tell, Yata Noriyuki (aka Kunino Ichiro) is the one that taught Mabuni Kenwa. As to how they met, I don't know. I was told that Kenwa taught Ueno Takashi, but in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is has Mabuni Kenei and then Ueno Takashi.

Here is what the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten says about Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo:

Shinden Fudō-ryū (Ken [fist], Bō [staff], Naginata [halberd] Iai [sword draw], Koshimawashi [around the hips], Yawara [jujutsu], and Tetsusa [iron chain])

Judge Yata is the founder (of this school). The school continued to the beginning of Meiji, when 9th generation Yata Onseisai Noriaki (commonly known as Taito) learned a number of ryu, (and went on to) found his own ryu, which he called Shinden Jigen-ryu; however, this was later changed by Yata Noriyuki to Shinden Fudo-ryu. In the time of the Meiji Restoration, he set up the Kusamou Yada Group in Kyoto with his son Takao, and went on a "business trip" teaching military arts in Yamato-Totsukawa and elsewhere. After the Restoration, he joined up with others of the Conservative school of thought and the Discontented Party in Kurume, Okayama, Totsukawa and elsewhere and planned to fool the former Nobles and overthrow the Satsuma Clan Government, but in March of the 4th year of the Meiji Period (1872) he was detected, caught, and became a lifetime prisoner. He was 50 years old at the time. His pseudonym in those days was called Kunino Ichiro. As for the lineage, --- Yata Noriaki – Yata Noriyuki --- (17 Generation) Mabuni Kenwa – Mabuni Kenei – Ueno Takashi.

This URL here

http://members.cox.net/shitokai/manzoiwata.htm

shows that Iwata Manzo, one of Mabuni sensei's best students, received a menkyo in a Koryu Jujutsu/Kenpo system (Nanban Satto-ryu) so maybe it was the norm for Mabuni's students to cross-train in other styles in order to expand their knowledge. So it's not too far-fetched that Mabuni Kenwa himself did picked up a few Jujutsu techniques, maybe even a Ryuha, on his own martial arts journeys...

I see some people also started a discussion which could be useful for us here

http://www.karateforums.com/archive/o_t/t_16579/start_0/index.html

Thank you. This is going to get me a good start.

In looking at some of these sites and postings, I see where teh terms Kenpo and Jujutsu are used interchangeably, and also some arts are called "Kenpo Jujutsu".

I had always thought that the term "Kenpo Jujutsu" was coined in Hawaii when practioners there started blending Jujutsu and the newly introduced Karate in the 1930's.

Was this usage common in the koryu systems?



Jim Mc Coy

Here is some info to get you started.

Mabuni Kenwa, Sakagami Ryusho, Fujita Isamu (Fujita Seiko), and Fujitani Masatoshi, Konishi Yasuhiro belonged to Ueno Takashi's Kenkyukai (research group). There were others, but I can't remember everyone.

All of them exchanged information at some point. For example, Mabuni studied Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo and Asayama Ichiden-ryu taijutsu from Ueno Takashi, while Ueno studied Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo.

Some don't even know that Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu fame) studied Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu, Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu dakentaijutsu, Asayama Ichiden-ryu taijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo from Ueno Takashi. He didn't just study a little bit, but received menkyo kaiden for some, if not all.

Hope this helps.

BTW, I have a picture of a Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo scroll, but this forum does not allow me to attach it.

Test. Having issues posting.

Further Confirmation (part of an email I received from a highly reliable Shito Ryu source)

"Yes, Kuniba Soke originated an art called Goshin Budo and was certified and
accepted into the JKF as a true traditional art due to his art rooting from Hanshi Gozo Shioda."

Kuniba and his father Kosei Kokuba were direct students of Mabuni. Mabubi and Choki Motobu taught at Kokuba's dojo .


"Mabuni Sokes art of grappling was rooted from Okinawan Tegumi and Nanban Sato ryu Kenpo from the Ninjutsu art taught by Soke Seiko Fujita."

Jim Mc Coy

If you please: jim@jimmccoy.com

Thank you

Jim Mc Coy

If you please: jim@jimmccoy.com

Thank you

Jim Mc Coy
For me too, if you please :D

jujutsu_indonesia@yahoo.com

Thank you!

Both of you should have received the e-mail from my work.

Regards,

Mabuni studied Asayama Ichiden-ryu taijutsu from Ueno Takashi...

Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu fame) studied Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu dakentaijutsu...

Correction on the two above. Mabuni Kenwa was not in my source for Asayama Ichiden-ryu.

As for Sakagami Ryusho, I was confused with another person by the name of "Sakagami". Sakagami Ryusho did not learn Kijin Chosui-ryu.

The other schools that I did mention are correct.

...Nanban Sato ryu Kenpo from the Ninjutsu art taught by Soke Seiko Fujita."


This is not really correct. Fujita Seiko learned Nanban Satto-ryu kenpo from Hashimoto Ippusai and he learned Koga-ryu from his grandfather. So they are connected only by Fujita Seiko being soke of both schools.

Nanban Satto-ryu is a branch of the Nanban Ippon-ryu, which originally came from Seigo-ryu.

I have received the scroll, thank you very much! Must be a very small Ryuha if that scroll contains all the Katas.. but I am sure this one is as much challenging as any :)

I also received the scroll. Thank you.

This historical information should keep me busy for a while.

Jim Mc Coy

I have received the scroll, thank you very much! Must be a very small Ryuha if that scroll contains all the Katas.. but I am sure this one is as much challenging as any :)

The ryuha may appear small, but the picture only shows a portion of the scroll. Since we don't actually have the scroll, we really will not know until we see it with our own eyes.

In one source that I have read (Ueno Takashi Sensei 20th Anniversary Memorial Service by Kaminaga Shigemi), it says that Mabuni gave Ueno Takashi only one scroll.

I found this picture of the scroll on a Japanese website by doing a Google search on Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo (in kanji) and found the picture. I can't remember who the scroll belongs to and I can't seem to find the website anymore.

Dear George, what is the connection between Kijin Chosui-ryu and Shinden Tatara-ryu? The techniques from these two Ryuha looks similar. Why Kijin Chosui-ryu is considered Karate and Shinden Tatara-ryu isn't? Tanemura sensei on his Samurai Jujutsu video said that "from this Kenpo was born". Care to elaborate?

Sorry, at this time Shinden Tatara-ryu history has not been introduced to many Genbukan members yet. Except for a few kata, not much is known.

Supposedly, Shogo Kuniba learned Kobudo from Fujita Seiko.
Does anyone have a way to confirm this?

Jim Mc Coy

Try out this lineage chart

http://yuishinkai.netfirms.com/Library/Genealogy.htm

This shows Fujita Seiko's connections to the students of Mabuni sensei.. :)

It's time to dig this up again.
Something very interesting happened recently. I was demonstrating some of our Goshin Budo Jujutsu that came down from Shogo Kuniba. Afterwards I was asked where I learned the Asayama Ichiden Ryu. This kind of floored me.
I can understand people mistaking some of what we do for Aikido or even Daito Ryu. But this was strange.
I heard of Asayama Ichiden Ryu and even nearly bought a book on the subject. Now, sadly, it seems that book is out of print. But never practiced it or even thought anyone else still was.

Anyway, there has been talk of a Kuniba-Fujita Seiko connection. Now I learned that Fujita Seiko studied (and maybe even received Menkyo in) Asayama Ichiden Ryu. Is this correct? If so, then likely Kuniba did spend time with Fujita.

Yes, Fujita Seiko learned Asayama Ichiden-ryu taijutsu from Ueno Takashi and received menkyo kaiden.

It is possible that maybe Kuniba learned Asayama Ichiden-ryu from Ueno Takashi as well or, as you said, from Fujita Seiko. It is also possible that he could have learned it from other students of Ueno Takashi.

Is there any videos on youtube or other websites that might show Goshin Budo? If there are any video footage, I can see if there is any connection to Asayama Ichiden-ryu.

Thanks.
I am working on some videos and I will likely put some on youtube.
The problem is I am always making videos for others and I don't have time to do my own projects.

It had always been known that Kuniba trained in Yoshinkan Aikido with Gozo Shioda. But Shioda's first certificiations were in Daito Ryu. There are some who say that Shioda taught Kuniba Daito Ryu not Yoshinkan. But then again a lot of Yoshinkan is Daito Ryu. That may have been more so back then.
Now I am reading that there may very well be a strong connection between Asayama Ichiden Ryu and the Daito Ryu. If true, that can account fo similarities.

I found a syllabus showing part of the Shoden syllabus from Asayama Ichiden Ryu. It was written with no pictures. But the descriptions sound like opening moves to kata that Kuniba created. I only saw these kata when I was a kid and now I don't know anyone who teaches them.

Hopefully I'll get this all sorted out someday.