stretching:rights and wrongs

[theneuhauser]

whats your input when it comes to proper stretching?

ive noticed that most places where ive trained, they would stretch us before class and not after.

how often and how do you stretch?
what's best for you?

[karatekid1975]

I stretch 3 to 4 days a week (before and after class). I always make sure I get the blood flowing and warm up before I do any stretches (running around the dojang, jumping jacks, ect). I do the basic martial arts stretches ..... front split, side split, the one where you bend one leg and straighten the other, V stretch (stretching and touching each foot and to the middle), the modified front stance one, butter fly stretch, and sometimes I use a partner to stretch my legs in a front, roundhouse and side kick potitions. But not too often, cause I get sore doing that.

If you have problems or don't agree with the way the class is being stretched, do it by yourself before and after class, like I do.

[sweeper]

I do some dynamic stretching before class when warming up as well as some static stretches, but the only time I do stretching after class is if I think I have over excersised a muscle, and than it's just light static stretching to see what it feals like.

when I'm normaly excercissing I stretch in a warm up and than do a more intence stretch after I'm done excercising.

[Yari]

I belive in streching after class, and doing it three times.

I also try to do it every morning, not that I'm a rubberband now, but it helps keeping the muscles flexible and soft. If I skip a couple of days I can feel it.

I probably do it the "old" way. Strech the muscle and hold for 20 - 30 sec. and then on to the next. And when I've done the series I do it again. Max three times, and as a min. two times. My teacher usally said that three times to expand, and two times to keep it as it is.

In winter time streching has to be carful, since your body surly is cold.

/Yari

[Dronak]

With our classes we typically only stretch before we start. That includes some joint warmups -- wrist, shoulder/arm, waist, knee, ankle circles, that sort of thing. Then we do a variety of stretches such as the ones karatekid1975 mentioned. As you'd imagine, this is done so that we'll be less likely to pull a muscle when we start practice. Once in a while we do a second round of stretching, either after the beginning stamina training portion of the class or at the very end before we go home. Most of the times we don't though. Personally, I don't think we spend enough time stretching. Yesterday we did the whole set in 15 minutes. But this is also part of the reason I normally get to class a bit earlier, so I have time to do some additional stretching on my own before we start and do some stretches we don't do together as a group.

As for how to stretch, I suppose what's best depends on the person. I think the two main options are stretch and hold or slowly bob in and out of the stretch. I do a combination. Some stretches are easier than others, so the ones that are harder I will usually ease into by bobbing in and out of it, slowly increasing it until I get down where I want to be. Normally I'll hold a stretch for a little while, then release it and do it again. This seems to work pretty well for me. I like holding rather than only bobbing, but I don't want to do just one hold and that's it, so I hold a bit, release, and repeat. When you're bobbing though, you have to be careful not to do it too hard or too fast or you can hurt yourself. It's got to be gentle and slowly increase the stretch. Also as Yari said, in the winter when your body's colder you have to be more careful. In the summer when your body's warmer, it's a bit easier to work the stretches. We're supposed to be working on that during class this summer for that reason, but the training leaders seem to forget that point most of the time. I don't usually do a lot of stretching outside of class, partly because my natural flexibility is pretty good. I may start trying to do some though, because I hurt my hip or something last week while stretching. It was minor and got better quickly enough, but I guess I'll have to be a little more careful when doing the stretching. Doing some on my own on non-class days may help, too.

[Cthulhu]

The only thing I tell people not to do is bouncing a stretch. Whether they stretch before or after a workout is up to them.

Cthulhu

[Nightingale]

never, ever bounce or bob when stretching. its very easy to tear stuff that way. Always stretch when your muscles are warm. Have em run a few laps around the studio to get the blood flowing first. cold muscles don't stretch, they tear.

[SolidTiger]

I think stretching is important because if you don't you have a bigger chance to get a injury, and it don't feel nice to pull a muscle
at all. I know from experiance I pulled a muscle because I never
thought I had to stretch. Now I stretch at least ever three hours, I
learned my lession.

Thank You

SolidTiger

[sweeper]

you can stretch a cold muscle, it's just a little risky ;)

[Nightingale]

true, but why risk it? it only takes five minutes or so to warm up enough to stretch safely.

[sweeper]

I'm not quite sure... I do stretches without warming up to see how far I can stretch without a warm up.. not quite the same thing, it's alot more gentle

[Yari]

Originally posted by sweeper

you can stretch a cold muscle, it's just a little risky ;)

Why is it risky? Aslong as you do it carefully.

/Yari

[Nightingale]

its risky because your muscles are much more likely to tear if they're cold. you need to get your blood flowing to warm up your muscles before you stretch. if you need an example of this, freeze a rubber band and then try to stretch it. it breaks or doesn't stretch as far. same with your muscles.

[sweeper]

actualy, the rubberband thing is totaly diffrent, your muscles can tear largly because you carry so much static tension when you are cold, your blood's viscosity does increase and your capalaries close down some but that affects your mescle strength more than your flexability. The thing is you can train yourself to reduce the static tension of a muscle when it's cold, to give an example, have you ever been shivering than tried to relax the effect? genneraly you can stop shivering if you want to, it's not pricisly the same thing it's very simular (your body tightens your skeletal muscles to generate heat in he same way it creates more tension in your muscles when they are cooler). The rubber band analogy could apply to a dynamic stretch because you are stretching much faster, but it doesn't apply to a static stretch because a static stretch takes longer to stretch the muscle.

[Yari]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

its risky because your muscles are much more likely to tear if they're cold. you need to get your blood flowing to warm up your muscles before you stretch. if you need an example of this, freeze a rubber band and then try to stretch it. it breaks or doesn't stretch as far. same with your muscles.

My understanding was that every kind of streach was a kind of tear. But over doing it is just easier when cold?

Would it be correct to say that you get at better streach before or after a class? I think after a class, but any other ideas?


/Yari

[MartialArtist]

I stretch both before and after. Before to prevent injuries and after I stretch, I'm always faster, more powerful, and be more agile. I can kick higher and lower faster, I can do many things better after stretching. I stretch after so I don't get sore.

[artful dodger]

A lot of it depends on how flexible you already are. If you're quite flexible it doesn't seem to pose too much risk stretching before warming up. But the consensus is warm your muscles up first. Then do static stretches, then dynamic stretches. Then take your muscles slowly through the movements of the activity you are about to do e.g slow kicks. Good time to practice the balance aspects of your kicks etc. When I use to train in Wing Chun we used to do static stretches as soon as we started the class (which was 8.30p.m, imagine that in a cold hall in the middle of winter). I wasn't too keen on that idea and because you don't stretch very well in this state you aren't able to gain the flexibility benefits of the warmup.

At TKD we don't seem to do stretching at the end, only at the bebinning, but I think you should because of the build up of lactic acid. I also believe this is when you can increase your flexibility as opposed to just maintaining it. You should do the end of class warm down in the opposite order from the warm up.

[DJDragon]

Originally posted by artful dodger


At TKD we don't seem to do stretching at the end, only at the bebinning, but I think you should because of the build up of lactic acid. I also believe this is when you can increase your flexibility as opposed to just maintaining it. You should do the end of class warm down in the opposite order from the warm up. The TKD class I attended didn't have a warm down either. I was sore for days. Also at the start he made us bounce during stretches - possibly to get warm but I'm suprised we didn't have a proper time for just stretching. I guess theres not enough time in a 1 and a 1/2 hour lesson.

[Nightingale]

never, ever bounce during stretching. Its a real good way to tear something.

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

never, ever bounce during stretching. Its a real good way to tear something.

It's interesting that this is the party line, but... ever watch gymnasts stretch? They bounce... and they're damned flexible. What I've read is that novice's shouldn't bounce because they don't know how far to go. They should start slow and ease into the stretch. Experience people *can* get a benefit out of the bouncing (Balistic Stretching) if they control it properly.

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by sweeper

you can stretch a cold muscle, it's just a little risky ;)

I think the problem is more than just risky. When the muscles are warm, they are more pliable and thus can be stretched further. Therefore you can *increase* your range of motion. Isn't that why you want to stretch in the first place?

I agree that you should do cardio exercise to warm the muscles up first. Then do Static Stretching, then Dynamic Stretching, simulating activities that you'll do later. I think that stretching before your workout helps you during the workout. Stretching after your workout, when your muscles are good and pliable helps to increase your range of motion. Both are important. However, I don't have my classes stretch after class for the sake of time and class space. I think many other schools are the same.

Warmups (including stretching), on the other hand, are vitally important to reduce injury so I definitely have them before every class. If your school doesn't do this during the class, I would make sure you do it on your own.

WhiteBirch

[artful dodger]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir



It's interesting that this is the party line, but... ever watch gymnasts stretch? They bounce... and they're damned flexible. What I've read is that novice's shouldn't bounce because they don't know how far to go. They should start slow and ease into the stretch. Experience people *can* get a benefit out of the bouncing (Balistic Stretching) if they control it properly.

But I've also seen a lot of gymnasts who aren't yet really flexible injure themselves because theyre trying to do the same bouncy stretches as the ones that are already flexible. If you're already flexible, then bouncing may help you improve even further, but you've got to be at that stage first.Don't use bouncy stretches to get flexible.

[Buffy]

Just about everybody is way off course regarding flexibility. It's a common mistake.

If you want to strech the right way: "Stretch Scientificaly".

Below is a VERY short description - is you want more information just let me know.

There are 2 kinds of flexibility:
Dynamic
Static

Dynamic flexibility is when you kick or punch.

There are 3 kinds of static flexibility:
Active static flexibility
Isometric static flexibility
Relaxed static flexibility

Active static flexibility is when you are standing on one leg and hold the other horizontal to the front (like gymnastics).

Isometric static flexibility is when you stretch, tense, stretch more, tense again etc. hold the last tension for 30 sec.
Ex.
Spred your legs in a split.
Tense the insides of your legs (10 sec)
Relaxed (within the first 1-2 sec after then tension) and stretch further.
Tense again (10 sec).
Relaxed (within the first 1-2 sec after then tension) and stretch further.
Tense again (30 sec).

Tense = try to get to an upright position from the split using only the inside of your thies.

Relaxed static flexibility is when you stretch, hold the position for a long period of time, then stretch more etc.


Ok - BUT what about training????

... to be continued ...

[Quick Sand]

I'm in a university Health course right now that's completely centred on fitness and working out etc. Here's what we were taught about stretching.

You should do a breif warm up of some kind to get your core body temperature up before you stretch. Then at the beginning of a workout you want to focus on dynamic stretching and range of motion. You shouldn't hold static stretches for more then about 6 seconds. Stretching at the beginning of a workout helps prevent injury.

The best time to develope more flexibility is at the end of a workout. You should focus more on static stretches then and hold them for at least 15 to 20 seconds. Do each stretch at least 3 times for muscle memory.

[SMAC]

The most important thing about stretching is to warm up thoroughly. It's not that it's much safer but unless you are really warm you can't stretch to your actual limit and therefore will not benefit anywhere near as much. Also i disagree about ballistic(bouncing stretches). There is no hard evidence that it is dangerous if performed correctly. It is true that if you attempt to bounce vigorously down into box-splits when you are not yet capable you will do yoursef an injury. However, if you take a stretch which you can control well, to its limit and then bounce gently this is superior to static stretches. This is because ballistic and dynamic stretches mimic the action of kicks far better than static ones. Your muscles need to learn to relax whilst being stretched and moved at the same time for your flexibility to be useful to you. Does anybody use PNF stretching with partners at there club. I think it is an excellent final part of a martial arts class.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir

It's interesting that this is the party line, but... ever watch gymnasts stretch? They bounce... and they're damned flexible. What I've read is that novice's shouldn't bounce because they don't know how far to go. They should start slow and ease into the stretch. Experience people *can* get a benefit out of the bouncing (Balistic Stretching) if they control it properly.

I hope your not talking about competitive gymnasts.... they are flexible because as children it is still possible to stretch ligaments with arguable safety. Bouncing does this. Us big kids cant do this with reasonable saftey in anyones book that I have read.

[Nightingale]

also, please note that gymnists are CHILDREN and teenagers.
We had two 14 year olds on our olympic team two competitions back (Kerri Strug and Dominique Moceanu) and the oldest was 16.

People are naturally more flexible and can do more with their bodies at a younger age. but they do pay for it later. For example, Peggy Flemming, one of the most flexible and athletic skaters from like 20 years ago is now doing commercials for arthritis medicine. If you abuse your body like these athletes do, it does come back to haunt you.

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

also, please note that gymnists are CHILDREN and teenagers.
We had two 14 year olds on our olympic team two competitions back (Kerri Strug and Dominique Moceanu) and the oldest was 16.

People are naturally more flexible and can do more with their bodies at a younger age. but they do pay for it later. For example, Peggy Flemming, one of the most flexible and athletic skaters from like 20 years ago is now doing commercials for arthritis medicine. If you abuse your body like these athletes do, it does come back to haunt you.

well I must differ here.. the Kids I teach.. range from 13 to 4.. and I am more flexible than these little ones.. Anyone can attain flexibility... some have longer muscles than others..it takes them less time to stretch them out for length.. but you also are stretching Nerves.. ligaments..and they take a lot longer.
I, myself have speed and power muscles.. compact and short.. It took me 4 blown hamstrings.. and a year to attain flexibility to a split.. not that a split was my ultimate goal.. just getting stretched was..
these kids that are gymnasts,( and not all gymnasts are kids) train for flexibility in their rigorous schedules.. most kids nowadays are couch potatoes.. and when I see them unable to reach their toes with fingertips.. hands dangling knee level.. well that's kinda sad.. So if I can do it at my age.. anyone can.. :)

[theneuhauser]

just to clarify for anyone that's unclear on this: children in their pre-teens have a greater capacity to increase their flexibility than post-adolescents. This is because their ligaments and tendons can still be stretched or lengthened through stretching.

it's important to know that in adults it's only the muscles that can be effectively stretched to any noticeable degree. tendons and especially ligaments do not stretch (tendons connect your muscles to the bone attachment site and ligaments connect bones directly to other bones).

However, it's really because of the tendons and the ligaments that martial artists should stretch. this is because if a muscle is tight when a sudden contraction occurs, then you put lots of undue stress on the point where it attaches to the tendon and may result in a tear. just some fyi-:)

[SMAC]

An important thing to bear in mind as an adult who is stretching is that people who are are naturally more flexible don't have longer muscles. Their muscles simply react differently when stetching tension is applied to them. This phenomenon is known as 'stretch tolerance' and can be developed. The most effective way to develop it is through proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) techniques. The principle is to contract muscles which are under stretch to alter your boidies response to that stretch. An example would be sit with your back flat against a wall and let a partner push your legs out towards box splits until your maximum stretch (but not pain) is felt. After holding this position for 20s you should then contract your adductor muscles in your inner thighs as hard as you can (trying to pull your feet together)whilst your partners feet hold you in that position so you don't actually move. Do this for 10s then relax totally in the stretched position for 10s. You should now have generated some 'slack'and be able to tolerate your partner increasing the stretch. Take it easy and don't over do it and it can be v.effective. If anybody has more ?'s on stretching i'd love to try and help.

[theneuhauser]

good stuff smac


alot of physical therapists using pnf today apply the resistance that you mention using a slow but steady "give" against the squeeze that the resistance is being applied to. that way, you are not simply training an isometric "squeeze".

[Buffy]

I couldn't agree more with you smac !

Remember to do dynamic stretches before dynamic excercises and to do static strectches after your workout to reset your stretching potential

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