Internal Arts Represented Here [Archive]

Ninway J

01-15-2004, 09:02 PM

7starmantis

01-16-2004, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Ninway J
A couple things she mentioned is that there are no blocks in taiji, only re-direction, and there are no kicks in taiji, only separation. Is this true only for Yang style, or is it true for other styles as well?

I don't know that I would go as far as saying there are no blocks, or kicks in Taiji. I guess in a philisophical way that is true, more on the no blocks than no kicks part though. If it is true however, it is true in all systems of taiji, not just Yang. I study Yang, and bit of Cheng, they are both applicable in the same ways.

7sm

tshadowchaser

01-16-2004, 06:52 PM

For those that have posted hee, I would like to ask if you do external styles also , and how Why you think the mixtue works for you.
If you do only internal, have you tried external styles and why did you stop.

Ninway J

01-17-2004, 02:08 AM

Yeah 7*,
my instructor told me to hold out my arm in a parry. To demonstrate she threw a slow punch toward my parry and directed my arm upward with her other hand, as if to re-direct her punch. She said the object is to re-direct, not meet force with force. I guess different from, say, blocks in karate.

Also the posture where you extend your right leg out front while you extend both arms out to your sides. She said it is not a kick. If it's not a kick, the other thing I can think of is it being either a re-direction of a blow from an opponent in front of you, or a way to bring your opponent off-balance somehow. :confused: Or is it there just to make the move look good?

tshadowchaser,
I do both internal and external here. To me, the internal affects the external rather more than vice-versa. Without the qi, my movements would feel empty and be empty (as in lacking something, not Tao emptiness).

7starmantis

01-17-2004, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Ninway J
Yeah 7*,
my instructor told me to hold out my arm in a parry. To demonstrate she threw a slow punch toward my parry and directed my arm upward with her other hand, as if to re-direct her punch. She said the object is to re-direct, not meet force with force. I guess different from, say, blocks in karate.

Also the posture where you extend your right leg out front while you extend both arms out to your sides. She said it is not a kick. If it's not a kick, the other thing I can think of is it being either a re-direction of a blow from an opponent in front of you, or a way to bring your opponent off-balance somehow. :confused: Or is it there just to make the move look good?

I can see what she means about blocks. Meeting force with force such as a karate block. In mantis we have an "absence" of traditional blocking as well, so that is what threw me off.

My Sifu teaches many applications with kicks in taiji, but I can see her point as well. Many times the foot is used to "hook" behind the oponants foot and used for sweep, or just for contact to "feel" what they will do next. I don't see a good application of taiji without kicks, but I am also no master at it either.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
For those that have posted hee, I would like to ask if you do external styles also , and how Why you think the mixtue works for you.
If you do only internal, have you tried external styles and why did you stop.

I have a hard time with the external vs internal theories. Ithink my kung fu is both. I've never done a "hard" system such as karate, always CMA and kung fu so I can't really say I kave practiced external. However, my kung fu I think touches both. In fact, I have a hard time alot of times with the labels of internal or external. But I won't get on that soapbox just now. :)

7sm

Ninway J

01-18-2004, 01:45 AM

7*
Thanks for your input on the kicks and blocks thing. BTW, you said you also study Cheng style taiji. Is that same, or different from/as Chen style?

7starmantis

01-18-2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Ninway J
7*
Thanks for your input on the kicks and blocks thing. BTW, you said you also study Cheng style taiji. Is that same, or different from/as Chen style?

:D Yeah that would be the same, dang keyboard!!

7sm

CloudChaser

01-27-2004, 09:22 PM

i was briefly introduced to hsing-i, pakua, and tai chi and would like to pursue them again some time in the future... the internal arts seem more difficult for me to learn than the external shaolin kung fu style that i am currently studying...

chee

07-19-2004, 05:08 PM

Well, I just experienced my first taiji class last night. It's Yang style long-form.

The instructor said she teaches mostly for the health benefits while touching only a little on the martial applications. However, I could see the martial applications myself in doing the first few postures of the form. I guess, IMHO, you can mostlikely see the martial applications of taiji if you are already experienced in martial arts. Probably not so if you are unexperienced.

I think she's a good instructor as well. It seems she really wants to make sure that you do everything correctly as far as foot-placement, hand-placement, breathing, posture, and focusing your qi. I was corrected many times, as it is something different from the harder martial art I came from. It's pretty cool. A couple things she mentioned is that there are no blocks in taiji, only re-direction, and there are no kicks in taiji, only separation. Is this true only for Yang style, or is it true for other styles as well?I do the Yang Long Form and also Chi Gung (Qi Gung) as an internal art. Taiji (Tai Chi) is a martial form. In modern days, there seemed to be a separation of some people only doing it to balance Chi (Qi) - in other words, for strictly health - some doing it with both intent, health with martial application. It was originally developed for both. I believe you should do it for health too but it's also important to know why the moves are there for martial application.

Your instructor is correct in stating that there is no blocking in Taiji only redirect. Yes, redirection is more important and better than (as 7*M) said, meeting force with force. When you redirect, you can cause an opponent to over-extend their energy (as in a punch) then at the moment of their redirected extension, you return that force which they just gave you back towards them. It is the same energy priciple as, like in Aikido. Their energy force plus your own combined make a devastating impact on them. It also takes very little from your own energy, allowing you to conserve for a better fight.

As far as kicks go, she's calling it separate as in opening up the opponent's stance or redirecting a kick. If there are what we call kicks in Taiji then it would be low ones just to use for redirect or small sweep or directed at a knee.

The difference with external and internal arts are vast. The term External when describing CMA is usally used for arts that extend force by one's muscle skeletal body. Internal is used for arts that calls up Chi (Qi) from within and let the Chi flow first then moving your muscle skeletal body at the final moment. It is a concept that is hard to teach and learn. It is said, you must let the Chi lead you. That is why Taiji is slow moving, you must "master" the energy from within (Chi) before all else. It is more than stepping into stance and moving your arms. There are only a small number of recognized Internal CMA (Taiji, Xing Yi Quan, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa to name a few).

It seemed you have a good instructor based on what you told us.

Silo-Fu Kung-Fu

03-31-2005, 12:13 PM

for an internal style im studying and teaching Chen style Tai-chi

moononthewater

05-11-2005, 06:47 PM

No kicks in Tai Chi i must have been doing it wrong for years then.

Khatami

05-12-2005, 11:44 AM

Dear Moon,

I think you probably have been doing it wrong. If you were doing it right you'd be going bald and have a gut.
You should take up a real martial art; study with someone who has Yin Yang hands and lives in Mark's Cave.
Khatami

Feisty Mouse

05-12-2005, 12:38 PM

I must have missed this one before....

Tai Chi Chuan, my instructors are under William CC Chen.

moononthewater

05-12-2005, 02:36 PM

Oh Pooh Khatami i am doing it wrong because believe it or not you have just described my teacher but he lives with lots of nice looking oriental people who look very fit but some how he is bald and has a beer gut. You also missed out that he is not as handsome as myself and gets lost on motorways. I will have to go back to Marks cave with all the good looking hippies live. Though i do believe Tai Chi has kicks because last time i attempted to do pushing hands with my teacher i lost count of the number of times he managed to get his skinny short legs of the floor and kick my ass.

automaton

05-12-2005, 11:46 PM

I started pa kua about a year ago and it has opened my eyes to a large spectrum of new ideas and energies.

Xue Sheng

01-28-2006, 04:54 PM

I do Yang style Tai Chi

I have practiced Xingyi, Bagua and some Chen style Tai Chi.

I am not sure if it is considered internal, but I have started training in yiquan as well.

there is no blocking in Taiji only redirect

As far as kicks go, she's calling it separate as in opening up the opponent's stance or redirecting a kick. If there are what we call kicks in Taiji then it would be low ones just to use for redirect or small sweep or directed at a knee.

I beg to differ. If you believe there are no blocks or kicks in Tai Chi you have never watched traditional Chen style, practically the Chen family new frame as done by Chen Zhenglei. You have also never seen the fast forms of Yang style. And you are omitting part of Fajing practice.

Gaoguy

01-29-2006, 05:24 PM

Yizong Gao style baguazhang.

"I'm sure you can find a number of qualified Yang tai chi teachers through their organization."

Bai He and Changquan maybe, Taiji? not so much.

Dale Dugas

08-06-2006, 10:36 AM

Some tajiguan-Yang not enough so I'd claim to know it only the most basic of introduction to it
Still looking for an instructor close to me

I live in Quincy and teach there as well as Cambridge.

I am starting classes on August 19th.

Feel free to email me for any help I can provide.

Be well,

Dale Dugas

oxy

08-06-2006, 02:38 PM

Rook

08-06-2006, 03:26 PM

I do Liu He Ba Fa.

Here is an article I found that has information on the style that no other website has put up because it is so secretive.

http://kwaneinside.blogspot.com/2006/07/liu-h-ba-fa-short-introduction.html (http://kwaneinside.blogspot.com/2006/07/liu-h-ba-fa-short-introduction.html)

The information on the site is intended as a joke, however, it is not particularly funny.

Xue Sheng

08-07-2006, 10:13 AM

I do Liu He Ba Fa.

Here is an article I found that has information on the style that no other website has put up because it is so secretive.

http://kwaneinside.blogspot.com/2006/07/liu-h-ba-fa-short-introduction.html

Is this really your?

If so is it as you made it or has it been hijacked and changed?

Because from what I read that is not Liu He Ba Fa, nor is it all that funny.

oxy

08-07-2006, 10:40 AM

I was doing a random search on Google and came across that.

Personally, I thought it was good for a piece of satire on that particular subject matter. Certainly captured what I know about LHBF and what I didn't know about. I wasn't aware of the many other names for LHBF before. Of course, it isn't as good as Douglas Adams' work.

I would agree that satire isn't something that's laugh-out-loud funny. Also seems to be an acquired taste. Having read that article, I think it's a good thing to not take my art too seriously and be honest about the ridiculous internal culture. I might have to refer it to practitioners of LHBF I know personally.

Here's a serious site that's also not by me:

http://www.waterboxing.com/

And I apologise to those who I may have insulted.

barnaby

08-11-2006, 10:14 PM

Wing Chun is an internal art.

Syn

08-12-2006, 02:01 PM

Wing Chun is an internal art.

I would much more classify it as a external art, though your school may incorporate internal aspects from other arts, and or Qi Gong, it does not make it an internal art.

pstarr

08-12-2006, 02:17 PM

I agree. According to the (standard) definition of an internal system (as used in China), Wing Chun is not one of the neijia class.

Xue Sheng

08-12-2006, 02:36 PM

Wing Chun is an internal art.

I agree with Syn and pstar. Wing Chun is not considered an internal CMA it is an external.

barnaby

08-12-2006, 09:51 PM

my school does not "bring in" internal elements -- my school of Wing Chun was developed, and is taught as an internal art primarily. I'm sure you all have good reasons for seeing the categories as such, and I'm sure this general opinion has much to do with a majority of the WC schools out there, but I bow out for the purposes of this strand. Perhaps on a strand in the Wing Chun section here, I will work on a more detailed argument to this point.

Xue Sheng

08-12-2006, 10:16 PM

I mean no disrespect to Wing Chun, I use to train it and I am returning to it.

But it is generally not classified with internal Chinese martial arts. That does not mean that it does not have internal aspects just that it is not classified as such.

Internal Martial Arts - Neijia
http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia

Xingyi although classified among internal CMA is also sometimes referred to as Internal/External.

Rook

08-13-2006, 01:31 AM

You should break down the classes of internal arts.

The Three Orthodox Internal arts (as Identified by Sun LuTang who started this whole distinction):

Tai Chi
Bagua
Xingyi

Arts decended from the 3 orthodox arts:

Yiquan
Liu Ba He Fa

Other Arts ussually regarded as internal:

Tongbei
Various Wudong Styles

Arts having significant internal components:

Bak Mei
Wing Chun (argueably...)
etc. etc. etc. (there will be quite a few)

Honarary mention (as it is technically a Japanese art):

Aikido

oxy

08-14-2006, 06:15 AM

Arts decended from the 3 orthodox arts:

Yiquan
Liu Ba He Fa

There's not enough documentation to exactly tell where LHBF comes from.

But it is quite certain the LHBF originally started out as the twelve animals of LHBF, which does not seem to have descended from any of the 3 orthodox arts.

Xue Sheng

08-14-2006, 10:08 AM

Also a note on Yiquan (aka dachengquan), it comes directly from Xingyi.

It was founded by a Chinese xingyiquan master, Wang Xiangzhai

Wang came to the conclusion that xingyiquan was often taught wrong, putting too much emphasis on external, neglecting the internal which he considered the essence of true martial power

Unsung Hero

08-16-2006, 12:10 PM

Hello everyone, I'm new to this site.

Anyway, I do Xingyi, Bagua, and Yiquan as of right now. I really like all three of them, I don't think I have a favorite. I guess I just figured I would post here and sort of introduce myself a bit. I've been doing these arts for about three to four months now, and I've previously dabbled in Hapkido and Jeet Kune Do. Where I'm from, there aren't very many MA oppurtunities, besides: Aikido, Karate, Hapkido, JKD, To-ShinDo, and Tai Chi.
Okay, I guess thats more then some, but most of those dojos are too far away from me, and driving there every week would kill me gas wise, and most of them are really expensive as it is. So instead I go to this guy who lives about thirty five minutes away from me who teaches Xingyi, Bagua, and Yiquan. And so far, I like it a lot better then Hapkido or JKD.

7starmantis

08-16-2006, 12:27 PM

Unsung Hero,
Welcome to MT!! Good to have some more internal CMA people here. I look forward to reading your posts.

7sm

Xue Sheng

08-16-2006, 01:00 PM

Unsung Hero

08-17-2006, 03:37 PM

a quick question, could anyone explain to me what Liu Ba He Fa is? I've never even heard of that one before.

Xue Sheng

08-17-2006, 05:20 PM

a quick question, could anyone explain to me what Liu Ba He Fa is? I've never even heard of that one before.

Long story

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31771

NLMontana

08-17-2006, 10:58 PM

I trust this will raise some eyebrows and get the fingers clacking on the keyobard, but here goes:

I study / teach Shihando, Way of the Master. Yes, I know it is a Japanese name, but that is because one of the disciplines is the Japanese healing art known as Reiki. Shihando comprises the disciplines of Reiki and Juai Kung Karbo (Mastery through Movement), which is a martial arts system developed by Grandmaster Bert Rodriguez of Florida. This system traditionally is composed of Yang Style Tai-Chi and Shaolin Style Kung Fu forms -- all of which, while taught to most students as external forms, are in actuality internal forms of study. I went into martial arts training with Grandmaster Rodriguez as a Reiki Master, and with the intent to study internal arts. He taught me everything I could have asked for.

Studying the alchemy of these disciplines gives you no choice but to think and feel and change and grow and then take your energy and reshape it and remold it into whatever you choose to be.

Fabulous stuff, really.

Thank you.

Unsung Hero

08-20-2006, 06:59 PM

I have another question about the internal arts, I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything. Are Bagua and Xingyi considered northern, or southern styles?

Rook

08-20-2006, 07:42 PM

I have another question about the internal arts, I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything. Are Bagua and Xingyi considered northern, or southern styles?

Technically, internal styles are ussually put in a seperate category than the northern and southern distinction. However, as they originated in the North, they would be considered nothern by that criterion.

Xue Sheng

08-21-2006, 10:48 AM

I have another question about the internal arts, I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything. Are Bagua and Xingyi considered northern, or southern styles?

Northern

empty cup

08-31-2006, 01:32 AM

I study Gao Style Ba Gua in Berkely Ca. On Monday nights and Oakland Ca on Thursdays. I eventually want to start learning Hsing-I as well. My school is part of a group called the North American Tang Shou Tao Association

Xue Sheng

08-31-2006, 10:47 AM

oxy

09-01-2006, 05:59 AM

a quick question, could anyone explain to me what Liu Ba He Fa is? I've never even heard of that one before.

Here's (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=605623&postcount=14) a video of one of the rarer forms of Liu He Ba Fa called Straight Dragon. It's incomplete.

empty cup

09-02-2006, 01:32 AM

Learning Gao Style Ba Gau (very slowly !!)

empty cup

09-02-2006, 01:39 AM

Xue Sheng

09-02-2006, 05:04 PM

HI Xue Sheng: Sorry I posted more or less the same thing twice. Any way to answer your question if by Hsing-I stuff you mean linear forms , yes we do have them. If I remember right ( I am still learning this stuff) there are sixty four of them. They are commonly referred to as Post Heaven Palms. The ready position we start from is basically a Hsing-I San Ti stance.

Cool thanks, I only trained bagua briefly and I have no idea of what style it was to be honest, I am guessing probably mixed. I have trained Xingyi, 5-element and 5-element cascade and only briefly touched in the animal forms.

Do they make you stand in San Ti?

empty cup

09-03-2006, 01:55 AM

Cool thanks, I only trained bagua briefly and I have no idea of what style it was to be honest, I am guessing probably mixed. I have trained Xingyi, 5-element and 5-element cascade and only briefly touched in the animal forms.

Do they make you stand in San Ti?

Actually at our school for the Ba Gua we don't practice standing in San Ti. San Ti is pretty much either a ready stance for linear forms or a transitional stance for circular forms. Where the Hsing-I class may practice holding San Ti before doing their forms we walk the circle for a while holding a series of eight different postures before we start our forms practice.

Xue Sheng

09-03-2006, 11:24 AM

Actually at our school for the Ba Gua we don't practice standing in San Ti. San Ti is pretty much either a ready stance for linear forms or a transitional stance for circular forms. Where the Hsing-I class may practice holding San Ti before doing their forms we walk the circle for a while holding a series of eight different postures before we start our forms practice.

Cool, that is similar to what I use to do in Yang Style and what I am doing in Chen, hold a series of postures. And in Xingyi you are right we held San Ti and only San Ti.

Thanks

HG1

09-09-2006, 11:49 PM

I practice Hung-Ga.

Xue Sheng

09-10-2006, 04:30 PM

I practice Hung-Ga.

Hello HG1

Cool a Southern style, not internal, but a great CMA style.

HG1

09-10-2006, 05:39 PM

Xue Sheng

09-10-2006, 05:56 PM

Why isn't internal? There's individual qi qong exercises & each form has them as well. Iron wire form is dedicated to moving qi through out the body. Body connection is an essential principle for generating ging. It's a misconception that Hung-Ga is purely external.

I am not saying it is purely external, many CMA style have an internal side and they are not considered an internal style.

Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Yiquan are considered internal styles.

I have also done some long fist and Wing Chun that have an internal side yet they are not considered internal, I recently have started Sanda/Sanshou, which is decidedly external, but the dantian is still a very important point.

Internal and external has more to do with where and how the Qi is focused and used

Internal (Neijia)
http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia

Gaoguy

09-12-2006, 07:55 PM

cup,
From whom are you learning Gao style?
Buddy
Yizong baguazhang

Steel Tiger

01-14-2007, 05:24 PM

Hi guys,

I do a snake hand style of Baguazhang that originated in Siquan. It is not related to the classical form and we don't really know how it came to be, but it was practised at a monastery of the Hsuan Shu sect.

I also practise Golden Bell Cover Qi Gong.

qi-tah

01-15-2007, 08:03 PM

Hi all;

I practice Ba gua with Master Shao Zhao Ming in Melbourne. (Tai chi Wushu Institute) Have to say that i was so relieved to find an awesome practitioner who was also a great teacher! Our classes mix up styles quite a bit within the Ba gua class - we also train some Xing yi, Chinese wrestling (Think it's called San shao?) and Sun style Tai chi. I think the idea is to give us a broad grounding in Nei jia, in order to improve our Ba gua.

I've only been at TWI for the last 2 years, prior to that i'd spent time at other schools that offer Ba gua. Consiquently, i've now practised three different sets of palms - rather confusing, although noticing the similarities/differences between them all is quite instructive. I've also dabbled in Liu he, Zi ran men (nature boxing) and Mantis boxing in my rather chequered past, but not to any great effect.

cheers... great thread!