Which Martial Arts for Women?

[Bob Hubbard]

I've heard it said that Wing Chun is good for women as it doesn't deal with over powering, but defeating your opponent by skill and speed. Which arts better lend themselves to aid in the defence of the average female? (By average, I mean just that. No 20+ years of study, able to bench a small train, but the average 90-120 lb, not in prime physical shape individual. This can also be extended to be 'wimpy' guys lke myself.:) )

My thoughts are Akido, TaiChi, Wing Chun. I base it on the fact that most of my experience with these 3 arts is more about balance, evasion, turning the attackers energy back on themselves rather than trying to beat the snot outta them yourself.

Thoughts?:asian:

[KenpoTess]

Hmmm good question Kaith.. though I am afraid I can't qualify..
*I'm able to benchpress a small train.. not in the weight range.. *
For me Kenpo is the best. .:) along with Jiu jitsu.. I have alot of strength equally distributed.. so when I get someone down from either a punch or kick.. it's pretty easy to use a joint lock and that's that :) Plus some Akido in there :)

Tess

[theneuhauser]

i would say krav maga and wing chun. they dont take too long to learn.

some arts, like taiji and aikido take alot of practice before they can be used for protection.

[theneuhauser]

oh yeah, chin na would be another good start.

[rmcrobertson]

After reading, I have to say that I'd vote for kenpo well-taught (by which I partly mean taught by somebody who actually believes women are capable of defending themselves against men, not as common a belief as it should be), and after that any solid art (judo, shotokan, wing chun, aikido) that is taught well.

My vote for kenpo--beyond the fact that it's the art I do--isn't so much based on the nature of the techniques, forms, etc., though obviously all that's important and good kenpo is extraordinarily practical. My vote has more to do with the way the teaching system of kenpo allows for the development of willingness to fight, which does for some of us (certainly myself) take time and effort to develop.

My impression is that the "abbreviated," (no slur meant; by "abbreviated," I simply mean that cutting down to the basics is exactly what some arts claim) natures of krav maga and other styles, which apparently just throw students in the deep end, simply don't allow for such development. In fact, it's my impression that most km folks are big and aggressive guys who already know about fighting--in other words, they walk in the door knowing things it took me years to learn.

I suspect that most women--not because of their natures, but because of their socialization--are going to ultimately do better with an art that takes some time to learn, precisely so that they have the time to slowly unkink the knots that may very well be the problem in the first place. I don't know, certainly, being a guy and only having studied a little over ten years--but every woman I've talked to in kenpo related experiences of guys (boyfriends, brothers, husbands, etc.) going out of their way to make them feel helpless in their training. Apparently this kinda works up until around blue to green belt--the point at which a friend of mine threw her much bigger older brother through a coffee table, and the boy didn't wanna play any more.

My point is that it usually takes women, and men, a while to become willing--and just as long to become knowledgeable, because one without the other is dangerous. Personally, I'd avoid any "short form," art, lest you end up like the women in tae-bo commercials, claiming a confidence and an ability that is going to get somebdy hurt.

[theneuhauser]

I suspect that most women--not because of their natures, but because of their socialization--are going to ultimately do better with an art that takes some time to learn, precisely so that they have the time to slowly unkink the knots that may very well be the problem in the first place.
youve got a good point there, rmcrobertson. the answer depends on the individual, man or woman. the question would be whether the person is seeking to learn effective self defense quickly, or to develop themselves within an art form.
krav maga is a system of techniques for defending oneself, its not just for big guys, it is used to train israelis in the army, simple and effective. and i know a few girls from israel that know some fairly effective stuff that they learned in a very short time.
we have to give some respect to these "get tough quick" systems, because they work. they will not go as far as many systems, but they will take you through the initial stages faster.
after all, wing chun was designed by a woman, for a woman and supposedly it was learned in a year. im sure that it got its fair share of flack early on, but today most would agree that it is very effective.

[Aikikitty]

Aikido all the way! Doesn't matter how big, small, strong, or weak you are (lucky for me!). I like Aikido. Although it's also the only art I've ever tried. ;) :asian:

Robyn :)

[sweeper]

I don't know if it would matter..

I mean it's not like by studying a way of fighting you can negate a size/reach advantage. It's still there allthough yoiu may be better equiped to deal with it.

If you don't want to fight though, I would say it's important to take an art that alows for escapes, I mean don't make a ground fighting system your main art because you are tied up there you can't just run.

[theneuhauser]

good point sweeper!

then, maybe although a distilled type of curriculum might be advantageous for learning's sake, it should also teach some distance fighting in order to avoid situations where one could be tackled or smothered and at a disadvantage to a larger person.

[Eraser]

Hey...

I would find it hard myself to say which MA is better for women then others.. i don't think really that you can say oh this is the best or that one is. Its really up to the individual to decide wether the MA is for them or not.. I love Hapkido. but im not gonna say.. OH it rocks for women.. for this Girl.. its does.. it has everything that IM looking for.. but it might not be for the girl next to me.. who doesn't like to get that aggressive (at somtimes) with the attacker..
I personally think that to find the best that suits you.. wether you are a Woman or a Man, for that matter.. you must try different ones out.. I was lucky.. it only took me 2 to find what I wanted.. now that's not to say that one day i may take a Kenpo or Karate class and change.. but for now im extrememly happy and im staying put..:asian:

[Kempojujutsu]

I believe it depends on the woman. Most women want something, they can defend themselves very quickly (as in learning it). Alot of women have been victim's before they take up Martial Arts. Or have a friend, family member as a victim. I would say teach them a Woman's Self defense course first and then the Martial Art. A few Martial Arts I would say that would be good; Jeet Kune Do, Kempo/ Kenpo, Krav Maga, Some Jujutsu styles.
Bob :asian:

[Bushido]

Womens need a martial art to get the job done, no sissy stuff. This is not West Side Story, this is the real world!!! THE REAL WORLD! Womens ABSOLUTELY need to practice a martial art that combine both striking AND grappling. A martial art without grappling is NOT complete. 90-95% of the time, a woman will get to the ground, and groundwork is not an option, it is a MUST, people have to understand this. Sorry, but no Aikido or TKD will stop a man from taking a woman down.

Jeet Kune Do would be good. Muay Thai combine with brazilian jiujitsu would be awesome for a women.


-Bushido

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Bushido

Womens need a martial art to get the job done, no sissy stuff. This is not West Side Story, this is the real world!!! THE REAL WORLD! Womens ABSOLUTELY need to practice a martial art that combine both striking AND grappling. A martial art without grappling is NOT complete. 90-95% of the time, a woman will get to the ground, and groundwork is not an option, it is a MUST, people have to understand this. Sorry, but no Aikido or TKD will stop a man from taking a woman down.

Jeet Kune Do would be good. Muay Thai combine with brazilian jiujitsu would be awesome for a women.


-Bushido

Oy vey! Why is it that you can't go into a forum anymore without
someone going on and on about how this style won't do this,
and that style won't do that. No offense Bushido, but your
style is NOT the end all, be all of fighting. Unless you've acheived
high ranks in EVERY style you put down, then to put it simlpy
YOU DON'T KNOW ! Forums are starting to
get plagued by people with this attitude. And it's just plain sad.

The ground is just flat out the last place a woman would want,
or should be, if attacked by a man. They shouldn't be working
on a muay thai kick to the knee, they should be working on taking
out eyes, ripping off testicles, and striking throats. If as you say
that "90-95% of the time, a woman will get to the ground" was
actually TRUE (just once I'd like to see a source given for this
"fact") then they should be training on how NOT to go to the
ground.

You have the right to come on here all you want and talk about
how superior your art is. But I have a big time problem with it
when you suggest to a woman that they should even try to
grapple a man that outweighs them by a couple hundred pounds.
Since you're a stats man, give me the amount of women raped
in this country? On second thought, I'll give it to you. One out of
every six American women have been the victims of an attempted
or completed rape in their lifetime (14.8% completed rape;2.8%
attempted rape). A total of 17.7 million women have been victims
of these crimes. (http://www.rainn.org/statistics.html). How
often do you hear of some man beating up a woman for the sake
of beating up a woman? It's typically spousal abuse, or rape.
It's too serious for you to suggest what you think . Get
your facts straight first!

[Bushido]

Originally posted by Kirk



Oy vey! Why is it that you can't go into a forum anymore without
someone going on and on about how this style won't do this,
and that style won't do that. No offense Bushido, but your
style is NOT the end all, be all of fighting. Unless you've acheived
high ranks in EVERY style you put down, then to put it simlpy
YOU DON'T KNOW ! Forums are starting to
get plagued by people with this attitude. And it's just plain sad.

Calm down buddy.
1- I dont put down any style, I honestly think that aikido and tkd is not the best style for a women, that is all. That is my opinion.

2- I have no particular style, I just use what works. I never claimed that my style was the best or anything, this is what you understood, NOT what I said.


Originally posted by Kirk


The ground is just flat out the last place a woman would want,
or should be, if attacked by a man. They shouldn't be working
on a muay thai kick to the knee, they should be working on taking
out eyes, ripping off testicles, and striking throats. If as you say
that "90-95% of the time, a woman will get to the ground" was
actually TRUE (just once I'd like to see a source given for this
"fact") then they should be training on how NOT to go to the
ground. You have the right to come on here all you want and talk about
how superior your art is. But I have a big time problem with it
when you suggest to a woman that they should even try to
grapple a man that outweighs them by a couple hundred pounds.

1- I never said that women should go and grapple with men in a self-defense situation. Of course they absolutely have to avoid going to the ground by learning striking, but they HAVE to know what to do if they are taken down. It is a MUST. Most so called self-defense classes dont even teach some ground defense, THIS is sad. Better know something than know nothing once on the ground.

2- All "tools" are useful in a self-defense situation: eyegouge, ripping off testicles, ripping off the throat, round kick to the knee, to the groin, jabs and cross.

In general (not you, in GENERAL), people have a fanatic belief in their martial art, this also is sad. I just want ppl to open up and take what really works, no restriction. Every technique can be helpful, I just suggest to explore. TKD is good, back it up with some boxing. Aikido is good, back it up with some submission. Karate is good, back it up with bixing or muay thai.

Sometimes, we look to close at one tree and we miss the whole forest.

Peacefully,

-Bushido

[fist of fury]

Most martial arts have some type of ground work. I'll have agree with Kirk a woman should never let herslf get taken to the ground. Yes technique can help but if the man is big enough and psyched out enough he's not going to "submit" he's just going to pound her into Unconsciousness. She should damage him as much as possible and then run like hell. Most male attackers are bullies and thus out weigh women by alot. They aren't brave enough to take on someone that can handle themselves. Sure thier are women that can hold their own against a male attacker on the ground but why take the chance. Grappling and groundwork are useful tools but to calim that an art isn't complete unless it focuses heavily on grappling is ignorant.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Bushido



1- I never said that women should go and grapple with men in a self-defense situation. Of course they absolutely have to avoid going to the ground by learning striking, but they HAVE to know what to do if they are taken down. It is a MUST. Most so called self-defense classes dont even teach some ground defense, THIS is sad. Better know something than know nothing once on the ground.

2- All "tools" are useful in a self-defense situation: eyegouge, ripping off testicles, ripping off the throat, round kick to the knee, to the groin, jabs and cross.

In general (not you, in GENERAL), people have a fanatic belief in their martial art, this also is sad. I just want ppl to open up and take what really works, no restriction. Every technique can be helpful, I just suggest to explore. TKD is good, back it up with some boxing. Aikido is good, back it up with some submission. Karate is good, back it up with bixing or muay thai.

Sometimes, we look to close at one tree and we miss the whole forest.

Peacefully,

-Bushido

There's women out there that CAN choke me out, I'm sure. But
I doubt that the average weight/height woman could. I'd be
willing to find out too, WITH witnesses! (I live in San Antonio, Tx if anyone wants to take me up on this). My neck is probably the
same diameter as most average women's waist. I feel fairly
confident that the only way she'd get me off her is with SPECIFIC
target attacks .. e.g. as said before eye gouge, testie attack,
biting off a chunk of flesh, etc .. this part I'm NOT willing to find
out about! ;) We can even post an mpeg of the whole thing
right here! That should end the whole discussion.

I have checked out quite a few women's defense classes .. a lot
of them cover a "man on top" attack scenario.

[Bushido]

100% true, women should avoid been taken to the ground. Ignorance is thinking that a system is complete without grappling. Not focussing only on grappling, but having 35-40% of grappling technique. Not only for women, for everyone.

It does NOT mean that the other system are no good, far from that. A complete system is one that teach all ranges of fighting: trapping, punching, kicking, grappling, ect.

I just think, it is good to know all we can on the battle arts.


-Bushido

[Bushido]

Your understanding of my words are limited: grappling for women DOES NOT only means "submissions". There is more to grappling than subsissions. Grappling for women can also mean escaping (or getting back on your feet to run like hell, or hit and run)...that is to me the most important aspect of ground fighting.

-Bushido

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Bushido

Your understanding of my words are limited: grappling for women DOES NOT only means "submissions". There is more to grappling than subsissions. Grappling for women can also mean escaping (or getting back on your feet to run like hell, or hit and run)...that is to me the most important aspect of ground fighting.

-Bushido

Interesting. And your contention is that a 130 lb. woman, once
on the ground, can escape a violent 360 lb. man who's beating
her?

[Bushido]

Even I would have trouble! :D Not all attacker are 360lbs, and yes some techniques CAN work for smaller female vs a man. Do you understand what I say, it is not the BEST thing, striking and running away is the best thing, but you never know. Better know something that know nothing on the ground.

Even a man who practicing striking technique for a long time can be taken down in a real fight. Or he can slip, loose its balance. Stress can be a major factor, you can "freeze" and "bang!" youre there on your back. No martial art is completely "proof". That is why we should try to learn the most we can in all ranges.

With all due respect, how long have you been into the martial arts? You'll see, your vision will transform.

In all respect

-Bushido

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys, I'm popping in a bit early here, but wanted to toss a little cold water on things. Please keep it a little less heated. Theres a lot of good info here, and I dont wish to see it get personal/flameish.

Keep the info / debate / discussion going, but please take the step back when ya need to to keep it polite.

Thanks!

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Bushido

With all due respect, how long have you been into the martial arts? You'll see, your vision will transform.

In all respect

-Bushido

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe some with as much experience as you
or more will chime in and confirm or negate your opinion. But I
do know basic physics. I also know that most women can't bench
their own weight, let alone twice that. The fact that women get
attacked by men is apparant, and rampant. How many women
have the time to study TWO arts? Your opinion came across to
me that they're doomed unless they study a striking art AND a
grappling art. Only "karate dorks" like ourselves will ever want
to do that. Women are vulnerable NOW. They need to learn
quick, fast techniques, without flash or style NOW. I know few
woman that want to spend a lifetime study m.a. But I know
quite a few that are willing to take classes for a period of time,
and then repeatedly practice THOSE manuevers.

Side Note: I mean karate dorks in the most complimentary way.

[Bushido]

Everything is with full respect. We just share opinions/toughts. No hard feelings. :asian:


-Bushido

[Bushido]

Originally posted by Kirk

How many womenhave the time to study TWO arts?
Very few, thats true.


Originally posted by Kirk

Your opinion came across to me that they're doomed unless they study a striking art AND a grappling art.

No, not doomed. You can do well with striking, you can do well with grappling, but you can do better with both. It's just putting all the chances on our side.



Originally posted by Kirk

Women are vulnerable NOW. They need to learn
quick, fast techniques, without flash or style NOW. I know few
woman that want to spend a lifetime study m.a. But I know
quite a few that are willing to take classes for a period of time,
and then repeatedly practice THOSE manuevers.

I dont say that in a arrogant way, far from that, but after studying ma for the last 17-18 years and teaching for the last 10 years, all I can say is that to be effective, ma in all forms (striking or grappling) need a certain amount of time training in order to be effective. I do not believe in learning self-defense with a "week-end" class. If someone wants to acheive its goal, it needs time. If a men or a women wants to have a certain level of confidence or effectiveness, they have to train, it's plain logic. Practice makes perfect.


-Bushido

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

And your contention is that a 130 lb. woman, once
on the ground, can escape a violent 360 lb. man who's beating
her?

This has got to pretty rare--360 lbs. is a sumo wrestler.

A great many of the sexual assault situations--in fact, most--are ones where the assailant is known to the victim, and hence the victim may have to defend herself (possibly himself, but this is a women's self-defense forum) from a disadvantaged position. What may have started as a consensual encounter may have gone too far as far as the victim is concerned but the assailant may not stop; this may well mean that the victim is already in grappling range (if that sounds like it's meant as a humourous comment--grappling range--it isn't; it's meant as an observation). One must be prepared to defend oneself from this range.

Biting and scratching and clawing are good starts. I don't think it's always that simple, and so I think that one may need wrestling/jujutsu style grappling techniques in order to free pinned arms so as to be able to make full use of these techniques. Bear in mind that a common response to a claw would be punches from the assailant to weaken the desire to resist, and BJJ techniques--as they have successfully shown--address this. Add in drunken/drugged assailants and all in all I think that, while scratching/clawing/ripping is well worth a try, it isn't as easy as it sounds. Your 360 lb. man could hold both of his victim's wrists in one hand while keeping the other free. That situation is best addressed by a BJJ/jujutsu/judo/wrestling technique.

I'll say it again--clawing the eyes isn't as easy as it sounds, even on the ground. It's well worth a try, and one can increase the odds of success perhaps by playing along until one gets one's hands into position (feigning compliance with the attacker), but I wouldn't count on it. Grappling techniques are needed.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Bushido

ma in all forms (striking or grappling) need a certain amount of time training in order to be effective. I do not believe in learning self-defense with a "week-end" class.

You're guilty of a fallacy: Conflating self-defense and the martial arts. A lot of self-defense can be learned very quickly: It consist more of advice than physical techniques for fighting an attacker.

The martial arts take time and practice. Self-defense, e.g. walk in pairs, lock your doors, look in the car before getting in, watch for these signs of an abuser, walk with your head up, etc., can be learned relatively quickly, and can have a surprisingly large effect on the likelihood of a person being a victim. Backing it up with the martial arts is so much the better.

[Eraser]

Hey....

Ya know what kinda irks me.. (but im not blaming anyone..) but i always read average this and average that... at this day and age.. who can say or predict what's average..
and besides.. my idea of average and joe smoe's idea of it can be way off... That term I find is used way to often.. not just in here.. but everywhere... Who in the hell made up the "average" measurement anyways.. I'd like to have a few words with him.. or heck.. her for that matter.. dont want to be judgemental...hehehe

Nuff said... :soapbox:

[Bob Hubbard]

I define average as the 'most common' person that I see. This of course is subject to many things.

Case in point. Goto a sci-fi con. One could come to the conclusion that the average fan is short, overweight and a little loopy. Then again, I tend to find a number of decent looking folks at any con I go to.

Its all subjective. My Arnis class is mostly female. (Sometimes Im the only guy outside of the instructor). Does this mean Arnis is a good art for women? Not necessarily (though I think it is).


Perhaps a better way to look at this is, What arts work for certain mental/physical traits?

Thin/Agile - Tai chi

Athletic, can handle some punishment - Muay Thai

Analytical - Kenpo

etc. (These are examples, not necessarily answers).

Is this a better way to look at the question?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I define average as the 'most common' person that I see.

This is the mode (mean, median, mode; mean=average, median=half above, half below, mode=most commonly occurring), understood literally, or the archetypical or iconic meaning (exemplar of a class, i.e., what bird comes to mind when you hear the word bird--a cardinal or a penguin?).

I am reminded of the apocryphal story of the statistician who drowned in a lake of average depth six inches.


Goto a sci-fi con. One could come to the conclusion that the average fan is short, overweight and a little loopy. Then again, I tend to find a number of decent looking folks at any con I go to.

Alright, now you're stretching my credulity to its limit.

I do think that, while the male/female split has some value in this discussion, you're dead-on in saying that other qualities such as height/weight/body shape, athleticism, degree of aggressiveness, strength, speed, etc. should be factored in.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador



This has got to pretty rare--360 lbs. is a sumo wrestler.

A great many of the sexual assault situations--in fact, most--are ones where the assailant is known to the victim, and hence the victim may have to defend herself (possibly himself, but this is a women's self-defense forum) from a disadvantaged position. What may have started as a consensual encounter may have gone too far as far as the victim is concerned but the assailant may not stop; this may well mean that the victim is already in grappling range (if that sounds like it's meant as a humourous comment--grappling range--it isn't; it's meant as an observation). One must be prepared to defend oneself from this range.

Biting and scratching and clawing are good starts. I don't think it's always that simple, and so I think that one may need wrestling/jujutsu style grappling techniques in order to free pinned arms so as to be able to make full use of these techniques. Bear in mind that a common response to a claw would be punches from the assailant to weaken the desire to resist, and BJJ techniques--as they have successfully shown--address this. Add in drunken/drugged assailants and all in all I think that, while scratching/clawing/ripping is well worth a try, it isn't as easy as it sounds. Your 360 lb. man could hold both of his victim's wrists in one hand while keeping the other free. That situation is best addressed by a BJJ/jujutsu/judo/wrestling technique.

I'll say it again--clawing the eyes isn't as easy as it sounds, even on the ground. It's well worth a try, and one can increase the odds of success perhaps by playing along until one gets one's hands into position (feigning compliance with the attacker), but I wouldn't count on it. Grappling techniques are needed.

I weigh 365 .. and I'm no sumo wrestler. BIG .. but not
close to sumo size. I'm not talking drunken/drug induced
assaults. IMO men are just a liable to become victims here.


I'm talking rapist and/or murderer. Where someone gets a
joy out of being in control, or from just having a victim.

[arnisador]

If you mean stranger rape--the so-called "jump out of the bushes rapist"--those account for the minority of cases. Isn't it smart to direct much of one's attention to the most likely threats? One wants to be prepared for all cases, of course, but let's start with the most likely ones--play the odds. After all the use of stats. here, aren't we prepared to use them to help our training?

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson




I suspect that most women--not because of their natures, but because of their socialization--are going to ultimately do better with an art that takes some time to learn, precisely so that they have the time to slowly unkink the knots that may very well be the problem in the first place. I don't know, certainly, being a guy and only having studied a little over ten years--but every woman I've talked to in kenpo related experiences of guys (boyfriends, brothers, husbands, etc.) going out of their way to make them feel helpless in their training. Apparently this kinda works up until around blue to green belt--the point at which a friend of mine threw her much bigger older brother through a coffee table, and the boy didn't wanna play any more.[/B]

This is so true... the last guy I dated knew I was a martial artist, but never came to watch my tournaments or anything...we'd get in a wrestling match (all in fun) and of course he'd win, being bigger and stronger than me, but then he'd tease me about why I didn't use karate on him to win. he'd say "you're such a wuss, sweetie." I couldn't make him understand that I was perfectly capable of getting out of the wrestling holds. I just chose not to, because, not having the brute strength to force his grip open, I would have to cause pain, which I was not willing to do.

I've been out with guys who are not martial artists, and they tend to think that either I'm looking for an excuse to beat them up (and I do nothing to give them this idea other than saying "I can't go out on friday, I have a karate lesson) or they think I'm just playing at martial arts. There's not a lot of respect for a woman martial artist in the outside world. However, I do get a lot of respect from the men in my studio...maybe its because I outrank most of em, I dunno... I usually end up being the person that the technique is demonstrated on, so they know I can take pain, and they've all seen me dish it out too, so that may be part of it too.

sigh...life is weird.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Bushido

Womens need a martial art to get the job done, no sissy stuff. This is not West Side Story, this is the real world!!! THE REAL WORLD! Womens ABSOLUTELY need to practice a martial art that combine both striking AND grappling. A martial art without grappling is NOT complete. 90-95% of the time, a woman will get to the ground, and groundwork is not an option, it is a MUST, people have to understand this. Sorry, but no Aikido or TKD will stop a man from taking a woman down.

Jeet Kune Do would be good. Muay Thai combine with brazilian jiujitsu would be awesome for a women.


-Bushido

I got attacked...the only thing that hit the ground was my attacker. I walked away, he didn't. I used kenpo. I know it works, and that's good enough for me. There are a lot of good styles out there, and there are some that are not so good. If the woman does her research before walking into any old martial arts school, she'll probably do just fine.

[Eraser]

Hey there..

Nightingale... i must disaree with your saying that Aikido or TKD would not prevent a man from taking a women down...
But you say kenpo works (in not saying that is doesn't ) but because that's what you have trained in.. I don't think its fair to say certain types of MA don't work.. when they are different.. but also in some ways the same...
I have taken Aikido for 2 yrs and now im in Hapkido.. we do a lot of TKD... and trust me. .if i wanted to i could stop a man from taking me down.. it might not be graceful or with lots of style but you can grasp what im saying.. yes there may be some styles that are more agressive than others ... Aikido is a very passive MA.. but when studied for a bit.. the movents are very effective...
This is something my Hapkido instructor tells us all the time.. its like the rule we live by...

"In true self-defence, there is no body contact"

How true...

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Eraser

"In true self-defence, there is no body contact"

I love it! This is great.

[Bob Hubbard]

1 question is, for those who have used their training in a real life situation, how long were you training at the time?

:asian:

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Eraser

Hey there..

Nightingale... i must disaree with your saying that Aikido or TKD would not prevent a man from taking a women down...


I didn't say this. Bushido did. I quoted him.

Aikido could absolutely prevent a takedown. I believe that every style has its own merits and that no one style is "the style" if that was so, there would only BE one style, because everyone would do the one that works. Each style has different strengths, and you have to find what's right for you.


And Kaith, at the time, I had a total of nine years in martial arts. I was nineteen years old at the time. I'm 23 now. I started kenpo when I was ten and have been going back and forth between kenpo and TKD for the last 13 years. I like kenpo better, but there wasn't always a convenient school.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

1 question is, for those who have used their training in a real life situation, how long were you training at the time?

:asian:

Kaith,

May I answer the question?

I would have to say negative 14 or 15 years. I had a real bad bully on the streets. She was really mean and about four or five years older than me. Then there were the guys that were also bullies. I have been running away or avoiding fights for a long time, if I can. IF I cannot then I give it my all, win or lose. :(

I started studying officially when I was 18 almost 19. The above happened when I was 3 to 8 years old. At eight I one a couple of the fights and all the bullying stopped. :D

I know this is not what you were looking for.

Just thought I would start you out on the wrong foot for everyone else to be able to put the responses back on line.

Best Regards

Rich

[Eraser]

Night,

Im truly sorry for directing my post at you when it should have been Bushido... please accept my humblest apology!!

Bushido.. shame shame.. read my previous post and that's for you... hehehehehehe

Arnisador... if you liked that quote.. i have a few more from my Kosho Ryu buddies....

[Nightingale]

hehe. apology accepted, friend.:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Bushido

Everything is with full respect. We just share opinions/toughts. No hard feelings. :asian:


-Bushido

I know it is late in the thread but I wanted to chime in.

Bushido, some of your posts do come off very confrontational, but I try not to overreact.

As for grappling, I don't watch a lot of mixed martial arts events but I understand that the grapplers are not cleaning up like they used to.

I also understand that there is a guy out there named Wanderlei Silva http://www.wanderleisilva.com.br/
who almost never goes to the ground. When he drops his opponent, he kicks him or hits him without getting into a grappling situation. He is one of the "strikers" who regularly avoids grappling. That's the way I hear it anyway. :eek:

I just wanted to see if I could find some evidence that you can strike and win without grappling. He is a good example as far as I know. I just found his website while writing this post.
:asian:

[Bushido]

Originally posted by cdhall




Bushido, some of your posts do come off very confrontational, but I try not to overreact.

The Learned Professor came to the house
of the Zen Master to ask to learn Zen.

"You are most welcome, " said the Master,
inviting the Learned Professor in for tea.

They sat on cushions facing each other.

Preparing to make tea, the Master set a pot of water
on the charcoal brazier on the floor in front of him,
while the Learned Professor began to tell of
all of the books he had read about Zen.

The water having boiled, the Master made tea
while the Learned Professor told of all the insights about Zen
he had gleaned from talking to other great scholars.

The tea made, the Learned Professor held up
his cup and continued to talk about Zen.

The Master poured tea into the Learned Professor's cup.
And he and poured...and poured...and poured,
until tea was spilling over the top of the cup
and cascading onto the floor.

"What are you doing?" cried the Learned Professor.
"The cup is full. No more will go in!"

"Your mind is like the cup,"said the Master.
"How can you expect to learn unless you first empty your cup?"


It is not my intention to be confrontational, I just want to make peoples "think" their training and not only "take" what people gives to them, like a sponge. Some people are very close-minded toward martial arts and alot live in a fantasy world. Sorry, but it is a fact. I dont talk about you or someone in particular, but in general. I'm not trash-talking about any martial arts. If you understand the core of my words, you will see that I agree that there is "good" in every style, but why practicing with fragments when we can have the whole? THAT is my speech.

There are some techniques that work for real and there are some that do not work. People got to be aware of that and analyse what and how they "absorb". There is NO superior style, just superior training.

I will finish with a Bruce Lee quote:

"Some martial arts are very popular, real crown pleasers, because they look good, have smooth techniques. But beware. They are like wine that has been watered. A diluted wine is not a real wine, not a good wine, hardly the genuine article.

Some martial arts dont look so good, but you know that they have a kick, a tang, a genuine taste. They are like olives. The taste may be strong and bitter-sweet. The flavor lasts. You cultivate a taste for them. No one ever developped a taste for diluted wine."

[Bushido]

Originally posted by Eraser


"In true self-defence, there is no body contact"

How true...

Sometimes "true" and sometimes "false". This is putting a situation into a category, limitating it, freezing it. This is typical to westerner: putting things into boxes where they are classified and labeled (conceptualization). Self-defense is to adapt to your oponent, it is fluid. Sometimes body contact, sometimes no body contact, it depends. There are NO "10 step to survive in self-defense", no fixed pattern.


-Bushido

[Eraser]

Originally posted by Bushido



There are NO "10 step to survive in self-defense", no fixed pattern.


-Bushido

I agree with ya 100% there dude...
and i will add my 2 cents to it as well..
No two fight or confrontations will ever be the same, therefore your reactions can't either!!

[Bushido]

Finally, someone who understand...i'm not alone...yes!!! ;)

-Bushido

[Nightingale]

I agree. There's no perfect formula. I'd say a good art for women would be any that teaches you how to improvise, not one that says "if he does this, you do this." because what you practice in the studio is way different than what happens in the street.

[Chiduce]

There are a lot of very good posts in this thread. I would be very skeptical of attacking a woman whom had a Shaolin White Crane background foundation for kicking, striking, and evasion; Eagle Claw intermediate and advanced level tearing , control, joint manipulation and throwing mid-structure; Baguazhang Cricle Walking 8 Mother Palms and Okinawan vital point striking upper structure! I don't think that it she would be perfect, yet she would be very very close.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[7starmantis]

I agree that a woman should never let herself be take nto the ground. NEVER, its a must. Also, I think you should never allow yourself to be hit in the face. NEVER! Oh wait, thats impossible.
While I think the focus shuold be evasion, and grab breaks, quick ending techniques, you cannot ignore the fact that there is basically no 100lb woman (or man for that matter) that a 250 pound guy could take to the ground almost instantly if they had no training to evade such tatics. So to ignore ground techniques for womens self defense I think is basically ignorant. As far as the sexual assult statistics, I know several women who have been raped, and that is the exact reason you cannon ignore ground techniques. Most rapes happen on the ground.


7sm

[7starmantis]

Chin Na would be a great system to learn for a woman looking for effective self defense. On that note, I think most "soft" arts would be bennificial. Flowing arts seem to cater to women better than alot of hard arts do.

7sm

[Chiduce]

Most think that the crane, eagle, and dragon styles of kung fu are external or hard styles; yet the opposite is true. They are internal systems which emphasize hard external foundation training in the beginning. As the student progresses into the intermediate and advanced levels the true internal style training is revealed. With praying mantis, wing chun and dragon styles being full high systems; snake being high/low systems and tiger, leopard, eagle, and white crane being low systems. Yet; few versions of these ancient style philosophies are seen today. The basic internal styles that most view as such are tai chi ch'uan, xingyi quan, lo he ba fa, and baguazhang as internal styles. Each having their respective versions of the above internal styles of mantis, crane, dragon, eagle etc,. The American, Japanese, and Okinawan versions of each almost eliminate to the true intent of the system's training. With the exception of the Okinawans, the true Chinese relationship for street combat of these styles are relatively lost.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Most think that the crane, eagle, and dragon styles of kung fu are external or hard styles; yet the opposite is true. They are internal systems which emphasize hard external foundation training in the beginning. As the student progresses into the intermediate and advanced levels the true internal style training is revealed. With praying mantis, wing chun and dragon styles being full high systems; snake being high/low systems and tiger, leopard, eagle, and white crane being low systems. Yet; few versions of these ancient style philosophies are seen today. The basic internal styles that most view as such are tai chi ch'uan, xingyi quan, lo he ba fa, and baguazhang as internal styles. Each having their respective versions of the above internal styles of mantis, crane, dragon, eagle etc,. The American, Japanese, and Okinawan versions of each almost eliminate to the true intent of the system's training. With the exception of the Okinawans, the true Chinese relationship for street combat of these styles are relatively lost.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

I would like to see where you are getting your information on this. To say one system has lost its application but this system is true to the core, is the same as saying "My art is better than your art". How would you know what is actually the true system unless you learned it at its creation?


7sm

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I would like to see where you are getting your information on this. To say one system has lost its application but this system is true to the core, is the same as saying "My art is better than your art". How would you know what is actually the true system unless you learned it at its creation?


7sm Mantis you got the wrong impression. My information came from the shaolin kung fu institute online! The url is http://www.shaolin.com/page.asp?content_id=973 My posting was to show the styles characteristics, differences, and similarities; not to say that one art is better than another! Frankly i do not and have not ever cared which art was considered best, because that art may not be best for myself.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[sammy3170]

All the advice about testicle grabbing and eye poking is fine but
something that I haven't seen mentioned in here is probably one of the most important things a woman needs to learn how to use in a self defence situation. HER VOICE. People forget what a powerful tool this is and don't train in how to use it properly.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

[jkn75]

I'm glad this post got revived. It got a little heated but I think it's a good topic.
I think any art that gives a woman options is good - something that teaches striking, interception and some ground fighting. Even a combo of arts is good but here's the problem- in order to learn these things it takes time.
So what to do? Women will take self-defense classes because that is a type of quick-fix. They get information, they learn a couple of techniques, they go home AND NEVER PRACTICE THE TECHNIQUES AGAIN.
:soapbox:
This is the problem with women's self defense courses. I think they can provide a false sense of security because they teach a couple of techniques but women never practice them after the initial class.
Some schools offer women's self-defense classes that are taught over a period of time and some instructors will even tailor a program for a women who seeks to learn self-defense. I think if self defense is the women's goal, these are the best ways to do that. The woman gets simple techniques with a couple of options and they can continually practice. Can any martial art do this? Yes.
:asian:

[Nightingale]

whenever I've taught a womens' self defense course, I usually only teach one technique (off a shoulder grab or an arm around the shoulders).

most of the time is spent on what NOT to do...

don't walk alone.

act like you know where you're going even if you're lost

be aware of your surroundings.

carry keys/license/cell phone in pocket/hand, never purse

check under and in the back seat of your car before you get in

that prickling on the back of your neck is trying to tell you something! listen to it! get away!


we discuss this, and then discuss how to go about doing it, like asking a security guard to walk you to your car and stuff like that.

most of the time, if you don't look or act like a victim, someone looking for an easy mark will move on to someone else. If they're targeting you on purpose rather than random, that's a whole other kettle of fish. however, most attackers are looking for victims. if you don't look like a victim, they'll find someone who does. (usually...there are always exceptions)

[Zujitsuka]

I believe in equality. Women should train in a striking art (i.e. Kickboxing) and a grappling art, like Judo. I think that a woman trained in the martial arts has the ultimate potential advantage on her side - the element of surprise. Most men would never expect a woman to give them a good one-two combo, a few low kicks, and then throw them brutally.

Just my humble opinion.

Peace & blessings,

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by sammy3170

All the advice about testicle grabbing and eye poking is fine but
something that I haven't seen mentioned in here is probably one of the most important things a woman needs to learn how to use in a self defence situation. HER VOICE. People forget what a powerful tool this is and don't train in how to use it properly.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

How so, you mena screaming for help? Things like that ?

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

How so, you mena screaming for help? Things like that ?

To a degree, but women (and men) should also learn how to try to diffuse a situation using their voice as well. Just screaming for help will often lead to the attacker wanting to shut them up. Using you voice in a strong and confident manner can also give the attacker second thoughts about what they are getting themselves into. It isn't always going to work but using it properly can prevent a lot of trouble. Things like yelling fire instead of help or rape are also useful.

Cheers
Sammy

[Damian Mavis]

Yes and added to voice could be body language, you can enforce if not get the same message across with body language. Body language could be even more important because it could defuse the situation before your voice ever even needs to come into play, and you might not even know that you just avoided an incident just from looking confident.

Reinforcing what others like Nightingale have already said.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[wlpm]

Good point, women need to be made aware of this weapon they have.

[Mike Clarke]

There are a few women training at my dojo just now.
One has the kind of attitude that some have spoken of here, you know the, don't even think of it, kind of look. She also has the skills to back it up.
But another young woman is almost apologetic when she's training with a partner. I'm doing my best to encorage her to 'swich on'.
I was wondering, it's okay to teach people how to do techniques etc, but how can we teach someone to have the right 'attitude'?

Look forward to your comments.

Shinjin.

[Damian Mavis]

I think we already covered that, my advice was that time and experience in the martial arts will slowly teach it to them. Assuming the instructor isn't letting them coast through their training with no care for their mental development in regards to aggression and realistically being able to use her skills in a self defence situation.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Nightingale]

very true... people will figure it out. Once you get exposed to martial arts, and become fanatical about it, (like all of us here!) you learn that there is a whole world out there, and if people don't feel that they're getting what they want, they move to somewhere where they're happier.

[cali_tkdbruin]

What ever martial art a woman chooses, any art is better than having no MA experience, and possibly subjecting yourself to being a helpless victim. :(

The principal reason why I have my daughter in the martial arts is because I want her to know, and do whatever she has to do to keep herself safe! Unfortunately there are a lot of scumbags in our world, and the cops can't always can't be there to protect her. I know I can't always can't be there to protect her either. The bottom line IMHO is to avoid confrontation if you can, or defend yourself if you must. Just be safe...

[Lawman9]

I hope I don't offend anyone but here is my 2 cents worth. I don't think there is any art that is "quick" to learn and "completely" effective. I believe the Bujinkan is the most complete martial art in the world. It does take time and practice to get good. The major pay off is that you can get REALLY good. It is perfect for women and shorter men. I have trained several women and once they learn balance and get over some fears of martial arts, they can be awesome!! But it takes practice.
There is no easy and quick martial art that you can learn without years of practice.
But that's just my 2 cents worth.

[Aikikitty]

What is Bujinkan? Is it similar to Aikido?

Robyn :asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by The Opal Dragon

What is Bujinkan?

Ninjutsu (http://www.martialtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=13).

[Aikikitty]

Thanks, Arnisador! :asian:

Robyn :asian:

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Lawman9

I hope I don't offend anyone but here is my 2 cents worth. I don't think there is any art that is "quick" to learn and "completely" effective. I believe the Bujinkan is the most complete martial art in the world. It does take time and practice to get good. The major pay off is that you can get REALLY good. It is perfect for women and shorter men. I have trained several women and once they learn balance and get over some fears of martial arts, they can be awesome!! But it takes practice.
There is no easy and quick martial art that you can learn without years of practice.
But that's just my 2 cents worth.

No thats right but there are specific self defence techniques that can save your life that you can learn quickily

Cheers
Sammy

[Taiji fan]

oh well, I have come in a little late and as I have just skim read the other posts please forgive me if I am being repetetive...first of all it does appear that many of the posts here come from men ( I didn't go through the profiles) so let me give you a womans point of view.

the best martial art for a woman is one that teaches confidence and self worth. The one that teaches a woman not to be a victim, but also not to throw caution to the wind either. One that enables contact to understand an appreciate the skill levels infolved in technique, but not necessarily bogs them down with variety.....a short self defence course can offer these skills with a small number of usable techniques along with the 'how not to be a victim' as described in previous posts.

Its interesting how taiji always turns up as a kind of soft option. Forget it, if you recommend taiji you will end up sending people to any number of teachers who peddle anything but taiji and let me tell you there are enough dodgy teachers who are happy to turn their students into victims rather than the other way. A former teacher of mine wouldn't teach women self defence as "they would probably freeze and be unable to use it anyway".....what an arrogant, pathetic opinion and as it turns out probably came more from the fact he was dominated by his wife, his martial arts class was the only place where he could exercise any control over women......also Taiji is complicated to learn, the form its self is only the start but sometimes people train for many years and never get past the performance stage. Often many classes don't teach partner work at all, and there are a ton of new age classes that do little more than musical movement.
I had spent years in taiji without having ever punched anything....I decided to do a little cross training and will never forget the first time I hit a pad....i ended up with nail marks on the palm of my hand and a tremendous pain in my wrist when it distorted hitting the pad.....funny though punching thin air in taiji my alignment was 'perfect'. I spent a year training in karate, along with my continued studies of taijiquan and what an eye opener it was. Moving slowley maintaining balance was easy but moving fast....:eek: now that was a different story. I don't train in karate any more, I only wanted to sample the art, as I am devoted to the Chinese arts, but I learned loads, I remember little of the one steps, but I know what its like to hit something, I can move quicker and stay balanced and even managed to kick pretty decently too. Now in my taiji class (which like many tends to consist largely of older people)...we hit pads, we do partner work, we apply our techniques, we work on fitness and stamina and sometimes, we even spar. But this is not a bog standard taiji class.
There is a great book by a British author, called The Art of Fighting Without Fighting it is well worth reading, most of it is involved with the way you carry yourself, your perceptions, you state of awareness etc....
Back to the question.....the best martial art for a woman.......whatever they fancy doing, a bit of cross training doesn hurt either

[yilisifu]

I agree with Taiji Fan; no single art is best for women. It depends on the individual student and the teacher, as she pointed out.
Many women are brought up with the notion(s) that (a) it isn't "lady-like to fight, and (b) women are much weaker than men. This causes many women to shy away from solid martial arts training and it's a shame.
No, it isn't "lady-like" to fight, but it isn't "manly" to attack women, either. Yes, women are generally physically weaker than men but strength isn't the determining factor in a fight....

I think the teacher has to take a realistic view of self-defense (for women) and provide realistic training. The students must develop a strong fighting spirit and confidence in what they can do.

The greatest self-defense "weapon" is AWARENESS. For both men and women. Be aware of what's going on around you at all times, especially when out in public.

[kicksindabank]

If your mind and heart is open, then any martial art will be for you.

[Hand Sword]

The same arts as men.

[Carol]

A student in the arts will excel where there is interest and a good instructor.

Gender is irrelevant.

[Ceicei]

A student in the arts will excel where there is interest and a good instructor.

Gender is irrelevant.

Yes!!!!

[still learning]

Hello, One of the first art's a woman should tried is "JUDO". My son and few girls in High school do JUDO for sports. Anyone can learn this.

Two: Most men will grap a hold of a women, learning how to do throws will help in the escape/ chance to do other things to fight back.

Judo is a good base to start from....Do not under estimate this art? ....it is call the "gentle art" ...but those who know this art? ..know the other side too. Because it is hands on training...you will learn faster in defending your self. (because you will be learning to throw at ever class..)

I am bias to any "Kempo/kenpo" training ....Aloha (done shotokan too)

The key is" if being aducted/rape" fight back.....do not become his next victim by becoming a victim. FIGHT BACK! ....Aloha

PS: Judo is rarely mention here on these sites....that's OK...but you may want to go and check it out?

[matt.m]

Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Jujitsu. Not necessarily in that order.