Weapon Techniques

[Kenpo Yahoo]

{I also posted this on the Kenponet forum}

The other day I was talking to a friend about some of the weapons techniques found in kenpo. He and I disagreed in a few areas, so it made the conversation a little more interesting. Anyway, I thought I would throw this out to see what some of the different views might be.

What do you think about the kenpo weapon techniques (i.e. defenses against an armed assailant)? What do you think about the prescribed attack and the effectiveness of the subsequent response? Do you feel that you could execute the techniques with a high enough degree of skill to keep yourself from danger? Do you have a technique that you think is great, or maybe one that you just can't stand?

You can choose from any of the techniques available in the kenpo arsenal (if you choose something not in the general kenpo curriculum please describe it). Oh yeah, and just to keep everyone on track please don't say,"I would just shoot the guy," you could do that without training in the martial arts. Pick any of the weapons knife, stick, and/or gun. My friend and I have a few view points that appear to be diametrically opposed to one another. So any info, insight, or stories that you can share would be appreciated.

Respectfully,
Kenpo Yahoo

p.s. Sorry I can't tell you what my opinion is just yet, I don't want to taint the responses. Besides this is more about the general Kenpo population, than it is about me.

[Bob Hubbard]

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

So far, no takers willing to risk a hellava welt.

Speaks wonders for their confidence in their techniques, I think.

:asian:

[Robbo]

Unless you knew you were going to be shot, you would be a fool to try a gun self defense technique. Just give the person whatever they want. If at some point you realize that you will be shot at no matter what and running isn't a option, what have you got to lose?

Rob

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

So far, no takers willing to risk a hellava welt.

Speaks wonders for their confidence in their techniques, I think.

:asian:

If you ever get a chance to come to Pasadena, I would love to take you up on the offer. I've done that a few times with live weapons and no real ammo, and with plastic bullets. Can't say I used a standard ideal Kenpo technique but they worked. The bigger question is, are you willing to accept the damage inflicted as well?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Klondike93]

So far I've only done a few club disarms in kenpo and they're all from an ideal phase. I did go to a Al McLuckie seminar on Filipino stick and knife work where we did some stick and knife disarms.
But most of my knife disarms so far have been in Systema, and I think they're quite effective, just not by me right now. I'm looking forward to the kenpo ones so I can compare between the two.


I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

I wouldn't mind trying it, with a vest of course to lessen the welt, just to see how well any of them work.


:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

Trying kenpo pistol disarms with paintball pistol sounds like a cool idea, but dont forget a thick vest AND a mask. Our school did the disarms with ink filled squirt guns

[Klondike93]

I like the ink filled squirt gun idea.



:asian:

[satans.barber]

Some are decidedly better than others it has to be said.

Defenses against a thrusting weapon (be it a stick or blade) such as Clipping the Storm I think are pretty good, striking the muscle groups if done correctly should have the desired effect.

The defenses against the overhead attacks are a bit more mediochre, things like Capturing the Storm and Evading the Storm would leave you with a split skull if you didn't do them correctly, I prefer something where you're getting right out of the way of the strike and if you fluff up the hand movements if doesn't make that much of a difference (such as Clipping the Storm, or to use an unarmed example the start of Circling Destruction).

The defenses against the swinging attacks are a lot worse, people would strike with the end of the stick with an extremely fast whipping motion, there's no way you'd get chance to step inside of the arm and block it as in Defying the Storm or Securing the Storm. However the ones where, again, you get right out of the way of the initial strike such as Returning the Storm and then move in are a bit better.

Of course, all these ones take on a new meaning if you have a weapon to fight back with/block with such as a stick, but for open hand to weapon defences I question the effectiveness of some of them at high/full speed. It's difficult to train realistically without hurting people though!

As for gun defenses, as I said somewhere else it's ridiculous. People who knew what they were doing would be out of reach, and could shoot you before you were in reach.

Ian.

[Blindside]

When we do defenses against clubs I really advocate "crashing" in on the attacker, it isn't pretty but it negates the club pretty fast, it also gets us kenpo guys to our optimum range. We arm the attacker with foamed PVC clubs and let them go at it. If the initial swing misses then you enter. I also think that charging the guy with the club is going to surprise the attacker on the street.

I prefer the defenses I learned in FMA for knife work, though there are a couple of kenpo defenses that are pretty good, though the majority of the ones that I have learned I'm not really happy with. I think I like the FMA defenses because they assume that your opponent actually knows what to do with a knife, and isn't going to pose for you after he thrusts, or do the straight arm psycho attack.

Guns; well I guess the assumption is that the person isn't standing 10 feet away with the gun pointed at your chest. They are predicated on mugging situations where they are poking you at close range, or are going to draw. If they are that far away from you and they haven't shot yet, the statistics say to run, most people are bad shots. Have you guys seen the airsoft guns? They are realistic looking, leave a good welt, and you can run paintballs (they are smaller paintballs than the 68caliber paintball guns). You can get them pretty cheap now, I've got one on my "to buy" list of training gear.

Lamont

[Robbo]

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

I wonder if you'd be willing to take the consequences if they actually did pull off the technique?

:D

Rob

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

So far, no takers willing to risk a hellava welt.

Speaks wonders for their confidence in their techniques, I think.

:asian:

Actually that sounds kinda fun. I will have to see if the guys at the dojo are willing to shoot me. hehehehe. To bad you are so far away. Glock actually makes a marker gun that shoots rubber or paint The blue gun (http://www.glock.com/training.htm) I think this would be a fun dojo tool. Too bad your so far away Kaith.

Michael

[Chronuss]

my personal favorite is Raining Lance. this technique is lightning fast when executed and can cause serious damage. I mean come on, first you stab them with their own weapon, club their floater rib, crack the adam's apple, grab their jewels, then pinch their eyes. as if this isn't enough, you bring over your knee, theoretically break their back, smash the adam's apple again, then put their right jaw where the left is. this technique is pure Kenpo, independent motion and economy of motion are found in this entire technique. and thinking about it while I'm typing, almost all of the counter offenses are center-lined, going right down the primary meridian of the oppenent's body. I just think this technique kicks all kinds of :cuss:.

[brianhunter]

never say never......not to insult anyones intelligence but some need to try and see these things in the real world. Get ahold of training videos from police shootings, dash cameras, wildest police videos etc...these guys all needed some kind of techniques because it was fight or die. You will see some of these guys use basic concepts and they made it out alive...this Kenpo stuff does work!!

The techniques where designed for a reason, its up to you to develop the concepts and applications. They are good sound techniques with solid well thought out principles and they will work to one extent or the other. As to the studio challenge..you already have the edge, you KNOW the person your holding the gun on is going to attempt a disarm. Most street thugs if its car jacking, mugging, whatver dont expect someone to try to disarm them, they are expecting complete compliance then maybe killing you afterwards for being so cooperative, it does happen guys....and depending on your environment you might not have much to loose.

I have been to several training seminars and classes on surviving edged weapons and armed attackers in my short law enforcement career believe it or not alot of the base techniques we learned have a ton of the same concepts as techniques like capturing the rod just not as complicated.....sometimes in these situations there is no flight only fight and I hope to God I have every tool concept or principle to survive this in my head somewhere. Alot of the principles are universal and work well when given a real world application its up to you to find it. Take care guys and be safe out there techniques work...one way or another they will get you home.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

So far we've come up with training with foam clubs and knifes and using paint guns to practice the firearms techniques (I'm gonna look into that Blue Gun thing... sounds pretty cool). We had several individuals identify their favorite techniques (clipping the storm, raining lance, etc.).

After looking through some of the weapons defenses, do you think that AK offers a realistic option to the practitioner? Do the gun defenses take into account guns like the semi-auto pistol which has become so popular over the last couple of decades (I don't know, that's why I'm asking)? Several of the techniques have you grabbing the gun to control it. If the gun were a six-shooter, you would be able to fire one round only (because the cylinder wouldn't turn to load the next shot), but with a semi-auto you could fire the entire clip (unless you got a finger stuck in the slide. Either way your going to get burned by the gas (although comparitively it's a small price to pay). Is there a better way to deal with this situation?

What about the knife techniques? According to the department of justice most knife fatalities are from repeated stabbings in the short held position (blade protruding from the bottom of your fist), unfortunately most are from people that the victim knew but that's a different post all together. Other than raining lance, which has you stepping to the left, there aren't any other overhead techniques. What if you can't step to the left (maybe your out of position or there's something obstructing your movement). What about knife techniques against an attacker who's in the mount position (probably more prevalent in a rape situation).

Most of the club techniques are against overhead stepthrough attacks. I hate to say that I've never seen anyone strike from overhead, yeah sure it was a beer bottle but I think that qualifies as a club. So why do we have all these techniques against overhead assualts?

Any responses will be appreciated. Please know upfront that I'm not trying to start a crazed argument, rather I just want to know why we do things the way we do. Any good scientist will ask why from time to time. Since kenpo is the ultimate blend of art and science I think that it's important for us to do the same.

Respectfully

[Chronuss]

well, just like you say, most of the techniques are for over the head club strikes (e.g.: broken beer bottle, knife, pool cue, ball bat, etc.) these are common weapons that people will grab or have with them in common situations. think about the drunk guy that's gonna do a big, big roundhouse punch that's gonna take three weeks to make it to it's destination, hell, I could go have a cigarette and wait for the punch to get there. we have all these techniques against the same thing simply so you have options for variables such as space, environment, and surrounding people. if you start one technique, you can graft into another depending on the juxtaposition of the variables. you could do Checking The Storm just as well as Raining Lance against an over the head attack, it just depends on timing and surroundings.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I don't know that you could use overhead club techniques against a Norman Bates type attack, seeing as how the blade is poking out the bottom. Your wrist and/or forearm would be pretty messed up.

[Stick Dummy]

Chronuss,


Talk to me next time I stumble into your dojo - Monday7/08???

I'm sure that Seig knows where this one is going to leade, and it'll be more fun than the "Blue Ball" drill - PROMISE :D


now where did I put that soothing whale music???????

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Stick Dummy

Chronuss,


Talk to me next time I stumble into your dojo - Monday7/08???

I'm sure that Seig knows where this one is going to leade, and it'll be more fun than the "Blue Ball" drill - PROMISE :D


now where did I put that soothing whale music???????

Oh Doomed I say~!!! Hey Pete.. Chronuss didn't get to experience the "Blue Ball drill.~!! His dad was having surgery that day. sooo guess he needs a heads-up on that one.. He was rather pouty when I told him what he missed :(

Monday eh.. *pokes Seig.. do tell.. ~!! Rats.. He's sleeping.. ~!
Guess I better get out my Combat armor for Monday by the sound of it~!

[Stick Dummy]

Time to break in that APD.....................

(insert sinister laugh here)

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

I don't know that you could use overhead club techniques against a Norman Bates type attack, seeing as how the blade is poking out the bottom. Your wrist and/or forearm would be pretty messed up.


well, for starters, rule number one when being confronted with someone with a knife: you ARE going to get cut, but you can choose where it is. I'd rather get cut on my forearm than my noggin', why?, simply because there are NO vital nerves in the forearem. it is simply muscle. number two, a technique like Raining Lance and Checking The Storm are designed for the Norman Bates type of attack, with the knife blade jutting down from the closed hand.

Raining Lance is an awesome defense against a knife attacker, it has you restabbing the oppenent with his own knife and such, quite a good tech.

[Robbo]

Is raining lance restabbing your opponent or just continueing his motion through to a new target of your designation? I know it's a question of semantics but it seems to me to be a vital point.

Rob

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Robbo
Is raining lance restabbing your opponent or just continueing his motion through to a new target of your designation? I know it's a question of semantics but it seems to me to be a vital point.


I would think for it to be "restabbing" you would have to have stab the first time...........

It is "redirecting" the initial attack back into the opponent. (self inflected wound) lol

The targets are limited in this case but certainly you or your body is not on the list!!

:asian:

[Blindside]

Kenpo Yahoo posted:Do the gun defenses take into account guns like the semi-auto pistol which has become so popular over the last couple of decades (I don't know, that's why I'm asking)? Several of the techniques have you grabbing the gun to control it. If the gun were a six-shooter, you would be able to fire one round only (because the cylinder wouldn't turn to load the next shot), but with a semi-auto you could fire the entire clip (unless you got a finger stuck in the slide. Either way your going to get burned by the gas (although comparitively it's a small price to pay). Is there a better way to deal with this situation?

Well the semi-auto pistol has been popular for more than a few decades.... :D

Anyway, I'm not saying this is what AK advocates since I'm not an AK guy, but this is what we do. When we do grab the gun, we usually try to grab over the hammer (assuming its exposed.) If the gun hammer is down, and the gun is a double action, then you hold the hammer to the body of the gun. My experimentation shows that a good grip will prevent firing. If the gun is cocked (Single action) then when you grab the hammer you try to seperate the hammer from the body of the gun, preferably by sticking a body part in the way (like the web of your hand). This is particularly difficult, you can also drop your palm over the top of the hammer hope that the pressure of your hand keeps the hammer from dropping. With revolvers you can also try to grasp the cylinder so that it won't rotate with relation to the body of the gun. You can also try sticking a finger behind the trigger of the gun so the trigger cannot depress (this will probably get your finger broken, but its better than nothing).

I'm not saying that these strategies are easy or foolproof, they are options to add into your techniques. I should also say that you must practice these on real guns, or good facsimilies to feel how these work. Try all of these techniques on a real weapon to see how the mechanics work.

Another good drill is to practice gun disarms, while someone else is randomly firing blanks nearby. It tends to break your concentration, see "Glory" for an example. :) It helps if you live in BFE or your studio doesn't have any nervous neighbors.

Good luck,

Lamont

[Nightingale]

just FYI, you can get disappearing ink at toy stores. I think its called Zappit or something like that. Comes in red or blue. it stays visible for about five or ten minutes, and disappears as it dries, leaving white uniforms still white.

[Kalicombat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chronuss

[B]


""well, for starters, rule number one when being confronted with someone with a knife: you ARE going to get cut, but you can choose where it is. I'd rather get cut on my forearm than my noggin', why?, simply because there are NO vital nerves in the forearem. it is simply muscle. ""


It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. Just because a person has a blade does not mean he knows how to use it. Also, going into any knife confrontation with the expectation of getting cut is too self-defeating for me. It should be understood that it may happen, and be prepared for it if it does, but dont accept that it is inevitable.

Also, if you are going to sacrifice your forearm, do so with the outside of your forearm, not the inside. If the inside is severed, you are unable to make a fist, and your weapon just became a limp noodle, if the outside is severed, your fist cant open, and you still have your weapon. Also, the veins are closer to the surface on the inside of the forearm then the outside.

One other point I'd like to make is that an overhead strike with an icepick grip is a very slow attack, but it is not always easy to defend against because the intitial movemtent is a downward thrusting, or puncturing attack, but in the right hands, can become a draw cut/slash attack. Many defenses against this type of attack I have seen are just plain BS. One such defense is to stop the downward movement before the arm passes the apex with some type of upward block or an x block. If the attacker has any knowledge of the blade at all, he will simple drop his elbow and slice the forearm or X block instantaneously.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I would think for it to be "restabbing" you would have to have stab the first time...........

It is "redirecting" the initial attack back into the opponent. (self inflected wound) lol

The targets are limited in this case but certainly you or your body is not on the list!!

:asian:


very true, Mr. C, thanks for pointing that out, guess I was too happily typing. it is more of a redirection of the knife blade...yes...redirecting right into the oppenent's right quad...hehe.

[Seig]

A couple of points here......

It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. To a very experienced practioner, this is true. to an experienced one...Well, I teach them that they ARE going to get cut, once they have accepted the fact, it seems to hace lessened the fear they have of the attack. I have had students come back and say, they were not afraid of an attack because they knew they were going to get cut, and then they wound up not geting so.

Also, if you are going to sacrifice your forearm, do so with the outside of your forearm, not the inside. If the inside is severed, you are unable to make a fist, and your weapon just became a limp noodle, if the outside is severed, your fist cant open, and you still have your weapon. Also, the veins are closer to the surface on the inside of the forearm then the outside.
Good point. He was referring to the outside of the forearm. I'm not sure if I have made that clear to my students ornot, but I will make sure Ihave explained it al ittle more thoroughly.

It is "redirecting" the initial attack back into the opponent. (self inflected wound)
When i teach Raining Lance, I make sure that when they do the redirect that they bury the knife in the femur. I do this by not only have them doing the redirect but adding some force of their own.

:asian:

[FUZZYJ692000]

Originally posted by Stick Dummy

Chronuss,


Talk to me next time I stumble into your dojo - Monday7/08???

I'm sure that Seig knows where this one is going to leade, and it'll be more fun than the "Blue Ball" drill - PROMISE :D


now where did I put that soothing whale music???????

Oh no, Pete, I don't think I can take another night with those Blue balls. The 1st time with the front kicks was all fine and dandy after that it took me 2 days for my legs to de-Jello themselves. :waah:

That's okay. It was different and fun though. Looking forward to what new and weird things you can come up with next.

Jani

[Seig]

Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000





That's okay. It was different and fun though. Looking forward to what new and weird things you can come up with next.

Jani
Now you've done it, I wash my hands of the consequences:EG:

[Sigung86]

Personally, and having been there ... I can't imagine that I would want to confront a knife attack empty-handed, if there were a chair or something "large" nearby. In lieu of something to can the crap out of the attacker with (the theoretical chair), I would do all that I could to beat a hasty retreat. No credit card, and most certainly, no job is worth that much... But then that's why I study Kenpo, I am a devout coward, and the idea of presenting any part of my body to be cut is "yucky"! :lol:

No matter which side of your arm you get cut on, if it is deep enough, you are in what we on Farmer Mountain call "The deep weeds"! You are also dealing with the psychological state of seeing blood all over the place, and realizing that it is yours ... Most especially, if you are dealing with an experienced or very lucky inexperienced knife fighter.

Having said all that, let me add, that unless you practice your knife and gun disarms and defenses on a really seriously regular basis, you are, for all intent and purposes, spitting in the wind, if the real thing comes along.

Not trying to poohpooh what anyone has said here, there have been some eloquent statements on the requirements and the techniques. I am simply injecting a reality check for us more chicken-hearted types in this thread.

Dan

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Kalicombat



It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. Just because a person has a blade does not mean he knows how to use it. Also, going into any knife confrontation with the expectation of getting cut is too self-defeating for me. It should be understood that it may happen, and be prepared for it if it does, but dont accept that it is inevitable.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman [/B]


said very eloquently and exactly what I was thinking, I just get into typing sometimes and don't express all my thoughts. thank you for correcting me. it is self-defeating having the expectation to be cut, but it is always possible, simply accepting the fact that you could be cut in a confrontation with a blade is part of defending against it.

[Self_Destruct]

Originally posted by Kalicombat


It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. Just because a person has a blade does not mean he knows how to use it. Also, going into any knife confrontation with the expectation of getting cut is too self-defeating for me. It should be understood that it may happen, and be prepared for it if it does, but dont accept that it is inevitable.

Also, if you are going to sacrifice your forearm, do so with the outside of your forearm, not the inside. If the inside is severed, you are unable to make a fist, and your weapon just became a limp noodle, if the outside is severed, your fist cant open, and you still have your weapon. Also, the veins are closer to the surface on the inside of the forearm then the outside.

One other point I'd like to make is that an overhead strike with an icepick grip is a very slow attack, but it is not always easy to defend against because the intitial movemtent is a downward thrusting, or puncturing attack, but in the right hands, can become a draw cut/slash attack. Many defenses against this type of attack I have seen are just plain BS. One such defense is to stop the downward movement before the arm passes the apex with some type of upward block or an x block. If the attacker has any knowledge of the blade at all, he will simple drop his elbow and slice the forearm or X block instantaneously.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman [/B]


All I can say to that is RIGHT ON! It sounds like you've had some training in Kenpo knife fighting. I couldn't agree more with the mentallity aspect. If you've already taken the mindset of getting cut instead of cutting at the onset of engagement then that's what is most likely to happen. Just as you wouldn't have the mindset of getting hit in an unarmed situation...instead you would have the mindset of hitting. Not doing so would give the enemy a tactical advantage before it even started.

Who do you study with? Just curious.

[rmcrobertson]

Folks:

I don't know if this'll help, and I've only had a gun pointed at me a couple times (no shots fired), and nobody's come after me with a real knife in more than twenty years, but I did have a couple thoughts.

First off, I was taught that the first rule of fighting someone who's got a knife is this: don't fight someone who's got a knife. Are you crazy? Avoid such situations; run away; talk your way out; give them your money, your pants, your car, but don't fight someone who's got a knife. If necessary, run them over. Shoot them. Hit them with a chair, a staff--but fighting. Nope. You could get hoit. Then, Rule 2 is: if you violate Rule 1, you're going to get cut. You can only decide how bad you're going to get cut.

Second thing is, I note that all the kenpo knife and gun techniques are designed to work againsst somebody who really doesn't know what they're doing. Raining Lance: they overcommit to the classic Norman Bates attack. (On the other hand, have you seen the MaxEx video and x-ray of the guy with the 11-inch bowie running from the top of his skull to his lower jaw?) Thrusting Lance: they fall for the invitation to aim at the stomach, and overcommit. Piercing Lance: they go for the hands framing up high, and inviting a high stab. The only technique, come to think of it, that looks different is Entwined Lance...

Third point I'd like to note is that if you look at Capturing the Rod, particularly after working on the execution of that technique in Long Form 6, the slide on top of a semi-auto is accounted for by the right hand--or, with a revolver, the theory is that that same hand pincches down on the cylinder while the left parry moves the barrel out of line with Robert's precious vital organs.

But this returns me to the start; on Larry Tatum's tapes, everything with guns starts with noting that you do NOT want to have to need these techniques--and their execution is only for a desperate moment. Which is why he argues for then executing the technique with real ferocity.

By the way, I was interested to see that nobody advocated kicking a knife or gun away. back when I first worked in hospitaals, I saw a guy who'd tried it. he was in for an angiogram, because he didn't have any pulses in his lower leg and foot, and they wanted to see if they could repair what got ripped when the knife went completely through his calf from side to side--musta tried a crescent, or a bad roundhouse...

Nice discussion, ladies and germs. Thank you.

[kenpo3631]

It is my understanding that the gun and knife techniques in Parker Kenpo are the same techniques. Any validity to that?

Personally I prefer to use some Philipino concepts with my Kenpo knife techniques.

Parker Kenpo is primarily an empty handed system. The Philipino systems are weapons oriented right from the beginning. Tried and proven techniques using sound principles not to mention they flow well with Kenpo.

:asian:

[Seig]

First off, I was taught that the first rule of fighting someone who's got a knife is this: don't fight someone who's got a knife. Are you crazy? Avoid such situations; run away; talk your way out; give them your money, your pants, your car, but don't fight someone who's got a knife. If necessary, run them over. Shoot them. Hit them with a chair, a staff--but fighting. Nope. You could get hoit. Then, Rule 2 is: if you violate Rule 1, you're going to get cut. You can only decide how bad you're going to get cut.
That is exactly what I teach my students.
As far as the Filipino, from what I understand, the evolution of FMA and Kenpo is reversed, in Kenpo, you start with empty hand and work your way up to weapons; in FMA, you start with weapons and work your way up to empty hand.

[eternalwhitebelt]

I have a feeling this will be an unpopular post but here goes. I have been in AK for many years ,I have seen the advanced weapons concepts of AK. All of the techs. and I have seen and worked with forms seven and eight. The concepts that are being taught do not even come close to touching what the filipino systems do when it comes to weapons. I love AK but a lot of people are being misled when it comes to what they think they are going to be able to accompolish. I have seen a lot of seniors in AK work the weapons and none of it comes close to what I have seen average students of the flipino arts do. American Kenpo is great, it is my base art, but if you want to compliment you empty hands with weapons, study a good filipino system, you will not be dissapointed. As for the common argument that a weapon is merely an extension of your hand, well that is only partially true.
I don't understand why people keep trying to invent the wheel.
Even in form 6 there are many things that go against basic weapons rules.

[Kenpo Wolf]

[i]Originally posted by rmcrobertson

By the way, I was interested to see that nobody advocated kicking a knife or gun away. back when I first worked in hospitaals, I saw a guy who'd tried it. he was in for an angiogram, because he didn't have any pulses in his lower leg and foot, and they wanted to see if they could repair what got ripped when the knife went completely through his calf from side to side--musta tried a crescent, or a bad roundhouse...



We aint as dumb as we look. Actually, I know of a tkd stylist who tried to kick a box cutter out of somebody's hand and failed miserabily. Now his right leg is so badly damaged that he had to go through rehabilitation(spl) and he still can't support his body on it for very long, not to mention that he's not such a fancy kicker any more. Eventually he did get back into the arts with kenpo.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Seig

As far as the Filipino, from what I understand, the evolution of FMA and Kenpo is reversed, in Kenpo, you start with empty hand and work your way up to weapons; in FMA, you start with weapons and work your way up to empty hand.

Not all FMA are like that but by and large, yes. I put a stick in my students' hands first, and work to empty hand (and knife) later. The concept however is "it's all the same", that is, what we do with the stick translates to other scenarios.

[Seig]

Stick Dummy has been introducing me to FMA and I have been enjoying it. I see how easily the two arts compliment one another.

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Eternalwhitebelt:

Sorry, but I ain't being misled. I never expected that kenpo would make me invulnerable, nor was it ever suggested in my training that it would.

More importantly, could you explain--with precise examples--precisely what it is that you find so much more comprehensive and developed in the Filipino knife strategies, tactics and techniques? Could you contrast this to the Form 7 and Form 8 material?

I don't mean to merely disagree--I'm certainly not claiming any expertise with weapons--but I should very much like to see details.

Let me repeat: all I'm asking for is precise detail. I've no idea whether you're right or not, and I've no intention of running out to study another art: I'd just like to read some precise explanations of just what you're talking about.

Thank you, in advance, for your time.

[Stick Dummy]

Seig,

Thanks again to all of your school:asian:



As far as Kenpo, I don't know Jack.........

I have on occassion trained with Master Seig and his students, Mike and I have spent a few hours before and after work discussing technique (some quite animated - much to the amusement of co-workers).

This is inclusive of internal and external theory of various arts, and a number of other subjects related to survival of a confrontation.

Kenpo definately has a certain synergy with any of the FMA or Indonesian martial arts. Just as it does close circle Ju-Jitsu and many Chinese styles.

Seig is a very quick learner and it did not take him long to have a light bulb come on for integration of technique.

Certain Kenpo books mentioned on this page would probably bring some enlightenment here.

I took up FMA/IMA with a group of VERY talented individuals as it gave me a VAST selection of tools for my personal tool box. The biomechanics and power generation is PHENOMENAL.


1st lesson learned : you THINK you know how to defend against a knife, or "knife fight" until you come up against a skilled practioner (B.T.D.T both real world, and Full Contact training with various weapons)


Please try to understand this humble laymans corroberation:

Why use a hand screwdriver, when you can use a power screwdriver to do the same thing quicker and with less work?

Stick Dummy humbly bows

:asian:

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Dear Eternalwhitebelt:

Sorry, but I ain't being misled. I never expected that kenpo would make me invulnerable, nor was it ever suggested in my training that it would.

More importantly, could you explain--with precise examples--precisely what it is that you find so much more comprehensive and developed in the Filipino knife strategies, tactics and techniques? Could you contrast this to the Form 7 and Form 8 material?

I don't mean to merely disagree--I'm certainly not claiming any expertise with weapons--but I should very much like to see details.

Let me repeat: all I'm asking for is precise detail. I've no idea whether you're right or not, and I've no intention of running out to study another art: I'd just like to read some precise explanations of just what you're talking about.

Thank you, in advance, for your time.
The word invunerable is no where in my post, so I don't know where that was coming from, but I will try to answer your post as best as I can. I have a feeling I am being set up by your questioning but I will give it my best shot anyway. Need I state that these are of course just my opinons, and I do think I am qualfied because I have trained in both arts. Do I think I know everything? Of course not, but here goes.

The weapons of AK consist of the basic techs. against a club, stick, knife, and Gun. Staff set. Form 6 introduces these techs. in a set pattern with some other empty handed techs., adapted for this purpose. Old form seven was orginally a double dagger form. It was later moved to eight and seven became a double stick form. The original double dagger form has been changed. Some do it the old way and some do not.
We can probably agree on this so far. (I hope.) Now the debate.

1. Form 6 doesn't take into account the reverse motion of an attackers hand. (Unfurling the lance as an example.) I find this strange because kenpo is big on reverses and opposites and things like that. Every filipino art I have studied takes this into account with the first lesson. With the exception of striking disarms, this form does not go into detail about disarms. Yes the isolations at the end teach two. How many people know this? What about the other variations, such as a strip and keep? What about from other angles of attack? What about counters? What about trap door techs.? This is too difficult to teach in a form( I say impossible). If the opponent does not drop the weapon, do most people know to not let go of the weapon bearing limb and perform the techs. one handed or no handed? (I.E. never let go untill th weapon is gone!) More importantly do they train this? I have sen a lot of high ranking black belts commit this error. Slice and Dice is the term we use.
2. Form 7. The premise is wrong. You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent. This teaches nothing about weapons combat. The second set of moves (Reversing Storm) violates a rule of weapons. Weapon always moves on the outside first. This is one of the reasons ( I think) that kenpo sticks are supposed to be shorter than most filipino sticks. If you have weapons training and you see someone perform this move it makes you cringe because it is one of the first things you are taught NOT to do in the filipino arts. The stick is easily trapped. If this motion were transfered to the blade you would cut your own arm. Hence the rule. This is a MAJOR difference between an unarmed system and a system based on weapons.
3.Form 8. Same as above. I have seen this form done many ways, against a mythical armed opponent and ofcourse against an unarmed opponent and so on. TO ME, what I stated above still apllies. To be quite honest with you, after studying the filipino arts I quit doing these forms. They seemed like a waist of time, and something that was just added on to the system.(my opinion). Whirling Lance will get you sliced if the opponent knows what he is doing. I still do 6. I just think about adding the disarms. When I work these techs. on a person I always do a strip or never let go of the limb. You have to do on or the other.
4.There is no laid out curriculum for weapon vs weapon training. I know I will get a lot of responses stating that Mr. Parker took it into consideration, just read insights and so on and so forth. However from my experience with many different seniors, some have tried to DEVELOPE a curriculum and some have not. I speak mainly of Mr. Pick and Mr. Mills. Huk also taches weapons. Can these men handle weapons in a fight? Of course they can. It is my experience in AK that they are the exception and not the rule. It is also my experience that a lot of the things they are teaching are in the Filipino arts, almost verbatim. Is this an unpopular view? Yes, but again it is just my observation. Some seniors will say that and some will say they created it. I don't really care either way, knowledge is knowledge.
5. The filipino arts that I have studied, not only teach you a systematic approach in dealing with certain weapons senarios,(unarmed vs knife, unarmed vs stick, knife vs knife,knife vs stick, stick vs stick, and so on, but they aso give you flow drills that help you practice them AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON PROVIDING RESISTANCE. Instead of just doing repititions of static techs. you get the feel of working at full speed with MANY variables thrown in. A persons skill level jumps by leaps and bounds.
6.Kenpo lacks these drills, even for empty-handed combat. That is why a lot of people are adding hubud-lubud, and chi-sao to their training. It only helps. This structure is not in kenpo. I don't believe the argument that it is in the freestyle part of the system. This is severely lacking when compared.
6. Many people always state, it is all in kenpo you just have to know what you are looking for. Granted this statement is usu. by a student who has only been in it a couple of years but still you get the point. That is hogwash. I learned more in 3 months of filipino weapons training than I ever learned in years of working kenpo weapons. The strucure is just not there when it comes to WEAPONS.
.7. And of course the most important reason is that I have never seen a kenpo person handle a weapon as good as a person who has been trained in the filipino arts. This goes for both the stick and the knife. Have I seen everyone? No. Again just my opinion. It took a lot for me to admit to myself that I did not know anything about weapons. It is hard to be arrognant when you are consistently being disarmed and your knife is returned to your throat. You either accept the truth and swallow your pride, or you can continue to live in a fantasy world and hope that a deadly situation never comes up. I chose to swallow my pride and started to learn other ways. In fact every person in kenpo that I have met in person and has had an open enough mind to work out, has left the session with their mind changed when it comes to weapons. I say this freely admitting that I am only an average student when it comes to the filipino arts. I have only studied them for five years and I consider AK my true art. If you were to take AK as the base and learn basic weapons rules and some flow drills like( spelling is wrong I am sure) hubud, siniwalli, palisut, sumbrada, basic lock flows, and learn how to incorporate all of that together, well I can't think of anything better.

This was long winded and I am not sure that I even really accomplished what you wanted. Ultimately, it does not matter, because as long as a person has faith in what they know that is half the battle right? Some say attitude is the most important thing but I really think it is knowledge. Knowledge is really the key. I just want to understand motion. Empty handed and with weapons.

Mr. Robertson I hope I did a decent job of answering your post. I also do want to repeat that I think AK is a wonderful Empty-Handed art.
Salute.

[Blindside]

Wow, nice post eternalwhitebelt!!!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Form 6 doesn't take into account the reverse motion of an attackers hand.

Can you explain for me what you mean by reverse motion of the hand and later by "Weapon always moves on the outside first."? I am not a kenpoist and don't know the language.



You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent.

??? Why would one practice that? Is it for would-be mob enforcers only?

[eternalwhitebelt]

Reverse motion of the hand--- If you can slash in, you can slash out. I am positive you know what I am talking about it is just hard in this medium to be clear. If the defender goes for the weapon hand you reverse the motion and slash the limb or hand.

Weapon on the outside--In kenpo the the common motion is to do an inside parry followed by an outside parry. If you do this with a stick it will be trapped. If you do this with a blade you are going to cut yourself.

As I stated before I believe the premise is wrong. I guess you could justfy it by saying it is a mob attack.:confused:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Blindside

Wow, nice post eternalwhitebelt!!!

I agree, seldom can I say that I have picked up so much knowledge from a post with such non-motivated honesty. Now it's time for me to go and explore your premises....

Thank you...jb:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Reverse motion of the hand--- If you can slash in, you can slash out. I am positive you know what I am talking about

Ah, yes--I just didn't recognize it by that name. Yes, even trained martial artists often don't expect this and end up hugging the blade to their arm or something.



Weapon on the outside--In kenpo the the common motion is to do an inside parry followed by an outside parry. If you do this with a stick it will be trapped. If you do this with a blade you are going to cut yourself.

I think I follow--essentially a crossing motion? The two parries are with two different hands?



As I stated before I believe the premise is wrong. I guess you could justfy it by saying it is a mob attack

OK, fair enough! Were these forms created by Mr. Parker from scratch or are they modifications of other, older forms? Again, I'm not a kenpoist so please forgive me for asking questions about what is I'm sure common knowledge.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by arnisador
You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent.
??? Why would one practice that? Is it for would-be mob enforcers only?

Arnisador, to answer your question.... we have established a basis for study which is........ Methods of attack and methods of Training for an attack.

The 4 methods of attack are: (you are always in the first position)

Unarmed vs. Unarmed
Unarmed vs. Armed
Armed vs. Unarmed
Armed vs. Armed

Much of our early training is within the 1st two methods. The Intermediate or Advanced is the next two methods. The better you know how to use a weapon the better prepared to evaluate your opponents skills (although do not depend on this the highly skilled are clever and disguise their skills). So the forms fall under this method for specific training purposes. The next category expands to the next level.
:asian:

[rmcrobertson]

First off, thank you. It's nice to see a post from someone who actually can be detailed and explicit in discussing their experience, training, and theories.

I am sorry to continue to disagree, especially since I can't do so on the basis of knowing the Filipino arts, or either Form 7 or Form 8. However, I have to tell you that each of the concepts you've brought up I've heard, and witnessed, and on occasion felt, Larry Tatum demonstrate--particularly the forward and reverse motion.

On the ground of Long 6 I am a bit more knowledgeable, and again I must say that I was taught the form and its applications in a fashion that has included the disarms throughout the form, not merely at the end: again, you might look at Mr. Tatum's discussion of applications on the tape.

Again, however, thanks. It'll be something to think about, as I progress. I don't agree with some of what you wrote, but I appreciate both your thouroughness and your candour.

[eternalwhitebelt]

I do not mean this in a disrespectful way at all. I too have taken lessons from Mr. Tatum. I have been around the kenpo block so to speak. I respect your position, but I do believe I have a pretty good grasp of 6. It is hard to convey thoughts on this board. What you talk of in Tatum's curriculum is not the same thing. I must humbly state that I too thought that at one point. I firmly believe that you have to experience both sides of the argument to really understand. However I will respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree.

[rmcrobertson]

Well, it has the same words, offers the same concepts, advances the same theories. I say it's a duck.

Again, thank you.

[Blindside]

rmcrobertson posted: Well, it has the same words, offers the same concepts, advances the same theories. I say it's a duck.

Well, don't have the amount of experience of eternalwhitebelt in FMA, but I will say that the concepts are similar but not the same. It may be a goose or a rail or a murrelet, I don't hink I'd call it a duck.

Eternalwhitebelt:

You posted that in FMA that "the weapon always moves on the outside." In a standard two-stick siniwali doesn't the first move contradict this, where you are doing a right hand #1 strike that crosses your chambered left? The simple unarmed application of that motion is essentially an right inward parry, left outward parry, right chop. Is this a case of with two weapons you simple will cross at some point?

My FMA instructors have definately given me the same tips regarding single weapon usage that you did, but I never thought it was a "rule." :)

Thanks for the good discussion guys!

Lamont

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Unarmed vs. Unarmed
Unarmed vs. Armed
Armed vs. Unarmed
Armed vs. Armed


OK, I see the logic and symmetry here. Thanks!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Blindside

You posted that in FMA that "the weapon always moves on the outside." In a standard two-stick siniwali doesn't the first move contradict this, where you are doing a right hand #1 strike that crosses your chambered left? The simple unarmed application of that motion is essentially an right inward parry, left outward parry, right chop. Is this a case of with two weapons you simple will cross at some point?

Much of the sinawali exercises in Modern Arnis are intended to develop a certain facility with the sticks--coordination--and the ability to go from open to closed and closed to open positions. The chambering actions would be shortened considerably in application (this was recently discussed in the Modern Arnis forum) and the sticks would be kept more in front of you. There is a complete system known as Sinawali but the Modern Arnis sinawalis are drills for coordination and getting a feel for stick-on-stick; empty-hand applications are also made of them (sinawali boxing and some locking sets).

If you cross the weapons then--just like if you cross your arms in a fight--you run the risk that someone will tie up both your arms/weapons with only one of yours, which would be bad.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador

empty-hand applications are also made of them (sinawali boxing and some locking sets).

Kinda like 5 swords, huh?

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by Kirk



Kinda like 5 swords, huh?

Kinda but not quite the duck, so to speak.


As for the sinawali question I think it was answered perfectly above.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

Kinda like 5 swords, huh?

Sorry, I don't speak Kenpo! I feel like the spouse at a physicians' conference!

[Kenpo Yahoo]

So since I'm mainly a kenpo guy, I thought I would ask a few stupid questions about the FMA's (which I just discovered stands for Filipino Martial Arts..... look MOM I'm learning)

Anyway, on to the questions
1) So are Arnis and Kali two seperate entities? I'm assume they are, but like I said I know jack crap about the FMA.
2) Does Arnis only study the sticks?
3) Does Kali only study knives?
4) Do you think that either one of the two approaches their respective situations realistically?

EternalWhiteBelt:
You made some really good points about Kenpo's weapons curriculum.

The reason I started this thread was because I felt like we were being mis-informed through our curriculum. I won't discuss the Gun techniques mainly because I'm not sure anyone would argue to their effectiveness. What bothered me was the lack of realistic knife defenses. We live in the era of the clip knife. I see 'em everywhere, so if we live in a weapon prevalent environment, then why isn't anyone working to change or create better weapon defenses? I've had some weapons training with both the knife and clubs. In each instance, I was taught ways to open up targets based on the reaction of my opponent. The knife curriculum covers topics such as reverse motion or "back-cutting." Heck we run a drill where we try and bait the guy into blocking our attack just so we can get him to extend his arms (this opens up the wrists and forearms). So if in Kenpo we are taught to be wary and not over commit, why would we train as if our opponent would be stupid enough to overcommit?

I'm excited about direction that my association is headed, and in my opinion I think that they are going a long way in trying to fill in some of the gaps that Mr. Parker left behind. However, it's still hard to try and think of an opponent with a "straight forward" plan of attack, especially when a weapon is involved.

I've enjoyed the posts that I've seen so far. You guys tend to be a little more relaxed and not quite so fast to jump someones back for making an unpopular statement. I appreciate all the input.

Respectfully

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

1) So are Arnis and Kali two seperate entities? I'm assume they are, but like I said I know jack crap about the FMA.

There's been discussion of this on the FMA-General forum here. In short, arnis-escrima-kali mean the same thing; differences are regional or traditional. Other terms are also used. In fact, the term kali really isn't used much in the Philippines.

As a very general rule, with many exceptions, escrima tends to emphasize the stick, arnis tends to have a few weapons plus empty hand, and kali tends to emphasize bladed weapons and often a greater variety of weapons. I repeat, there are many exceptions!



2) Does Arnis only study the sticks?

There are different systems of arnis, but usually only systems labeled escrima are apt to be stick-only, and most of them are not in fact stick-only (though such systems exist, e.g. Balintawak eskrima). A typical selection of weapons is stick, short sword, knife, and staff, plus empty hand.


3) Does Kali only study knives?

No, though it tends to lean toward bladed weapons. Sayoc Kali is extremely knife-oriented but Kali(s) Illustrisimo for example has a lot of stick work.



4) Do you think that either one of the two approaches their respective situations realistically?


Much of the techniques were developed for dueling (stick-stick, knife-knife, sword-sword) and this must be taken into account. This has happened in Modern Arnis, for example, which has been modified for modern self-defense, but in general one must watch for this. The FMAs have very effective dueling techniques, but dueling is a limited way to view an encounter.

Check out the FMA-General and Modern Arnis fora as well!

[Seig]

What about Penjak?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Seig

What about Penjak?

Indonesian. The blade work hand motions are very similar but not the footwork and empty hand techniques.