Scenario - Mall Parking Lot - After Hours

[Bob Hubbard]

Location: A mall parking lot after hours.

Setup: Walking back to your car. Lighting is dark. (Mall kills the lights at 930, its 10:00) Your car is way in the back, by itself. You are half way to your car when you notice a person by it. You also hear someone behind you (aprox 100' back, not directly) You are alone, and the doors back to the mall are locked. Situation at this point is uncertain. No obvious threat yet.

What would you do in this situation?

To the qualified SD instructors watching, what would you advise someone to do here?

:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

As you are slowly walking to your car, look on the ground ahead of you to see if you can pick up anything to use as a weapon as the need for one is almost definitely going to be there. If you cant find a ready weapon ahead of you, prepare to use your keys by placing them in your hand, keys pointing out, and DO NOT look back a second time at the one behind you. You do not want to give away the fact that you know you are flanked. Their overconfidence will be their downfall. Approach your car door and if the first guy approaches you, tell him in a commanding voice to back off and if he does'nt immediately launch a solid kick to his groin or preferabily the knee. Depending on the distance between you and the second possible attacker, you may have a few moments to get in your car if they did'nt screw with the lock

Tip.
Although it may be paranoia, I would advise people, especially ladies, to somehow attach a club to the car's frame right below the each door and the trunk. That way, you will have a weapon at hand if the need arises.

[GouRonin]

Obviously they must be vampires. You'll swing out your trusty sawed off shotgun with silver buckshot and then blow them away.

Don't forget your stake in the heart to finish off the evening!

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

As you are slowly walking to your car, look on the ground ahead of you to see if you can pick up anything to use as a weapon as the need for one is almost definitely going to be there. . . .


I was once met by a group of people pulling into the parking lot I had my car in. I found a can of tuna fish in the parking lot. I picked it up to have in my hand to help hit the guys that got out of their car. :asian:

I would still use my peripheral vision to continue to observe the person behind you(me).

As for the Vampires Gou, I would tell them I am a 7' tall Blue Troll. :D

Train Well

Rich

[tshadowchaser]

Anyone carry a wistle onthem these days the noise attract atention over a large area.
You may not have a problem (but mostly you do) how about diverting you walk away from your car . Walk as is if your crossing to the other side on an angle. If the steps behind you follow run for it.

[theneuhauser]

try stuffing some mace in your purse?

[GouRonin]

There are a few things I recommend for women. 3 in particular.

1) The Fox 40 whistle. You start blowing this sucker and people will hear it for sure.
http://divemar.com/Divemar/docs/fox40.html

2)Dyewitness mace spray. Use it and not only is it effective it lasts.
http://www.karajan.com/ebanc/dyewit.htm

3)Me. You can hire me at a greatly exaggerated cost to follow you around and make sure you are safe.
http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/houseofronin.html

The first 2 options are pretty cheap compared to the last.

[tshadowchaser]

Ok this may sound silly but most people carry a cell phone these days. If you work at the mall have the security number programed into the phone if you dont work there have the local police or 911(if you truley belive you are in danger). A call only takes a few seconds discribe where you are why you belive you need help Scream and let the phone go dead if nessacary (this usualy gets results if the other informaion has been given. The phone can always be another weapon.

Shadow:asian:

For that matter no matter where yu work if you work late have the security number programed into the phone if you see a situation that dose not look right befor ou exit the building GET HELP

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Ok this may sound silly but most people carry a cell phone these days. If you work at the mall have the security number programed into the phone if you dont work there have the local police or 911(if you truley belive you are in danger). A call only takes a few seconds discribe where you are why you belive you need help Scream and let the phone go dead if nessacary (this usualy gets results if the other informaion has been given. The phone can always be another weapon.

Shadow:asian:

For that matter no matter where yu work if you work late have the security number programed into the phone if you see a situation that dose not look right befor ou exit the building GET HELP

To echo Shadow,

The phone allows them to know you are in contact and immediately aware that you the intended victim will be missed. Also, use the local security for an escort, many places give them, you just have to ask.

Good Call Shadow (* Pun Intended! :rofl: *)

Rich

[Eraser]

Hey...

I must Admit that i find this question quite difficult to answer.. because i believe that you can say oh this is what I'd do if.. but in reality.. you might do something else.. for me i just try to make sure that I don't end up in that type of situation.. and if the time ever arises.. then i hope that my mind can react to the situation...
Now don't get me wrong.. im not saying don't ever think about it... (geez there were lots of good tips..) but in the heat of the moment.. i hope that I can remember what to do...

Thats all i hafta say....:asian:

[Eraser]

But then again... If i have my Trusty Cast Iron Frying Pan with me.... then pray for the other guys..... LOL:D

[Bob Hubbard]

With a Cell Phone, just be 100% certain they got your location clearly. The 2 times I had to call 911 with mine I had to go over it a few times. Thankfully it wasnt a life-or-death thing. With a land-line, they can usually do a trace/caller id, etc and get your location info, but a cell just doesnt allow that in most places.

[Seig]

In my opinion, the smartest thing you can do is turn around and go back inside. Call security and ask for an escort. IF security is not avail, call the police. Remember, the best Self-Defense technique there is, is avoidance.

[Nightingale]

if I'm going somewhere like this, I never go alone. I have had to lock up a store before, and I make the other employee wait so neither of us walks out alone.

also, from your description it seemed like you could see the car from the door of the mall....if you could see it, and someone standing by it, why leave the mall in the first place?

[Kenpo Wolf]

When the alleged victim left the door of the mall, she could not see the man by her car until she got close to it as it was dark, which was stated in the parent post.

The suggestions on carrying a whistle or a cell phone are excellent ideas. When ladies work late and have a distance to walk to their car, they should ALWAYS be in contact with someone, via either walking with someone or by using a cell phone. But if worse comes to worse, the lady will have to defend herself against possibly two predators. A pipe which can be easily attached to your car can go a long ways toward equalizing your odds. Mess one of the predators up and the other predator will have second thoughts about continuing the attack.

[Bob Hubbard]

They may also take control of the weapon and use it against you.

This point has to be kept in mind...also, once weapons come into play, things get more intense. My instructors have always said "dont bring out a weapon unless you a-intend to use it and b-know how to use it".

:asian:

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

When the alleged victim left the door of the mall, she could not see the man by her car until she got close to it as it was dark, which was stated in the parent post.

The suggestions on carrying a whistle or a cell phone are excellent ideas. When ladies work late and have a distance to walk to their car, they should ALWAYS be in contact with someone, via either walking with someone or by using a cell phone. But if worse comes to worse, the lady will have to defend herself against possibly two predators. A pipe which can be easily attached to your car can go a long ways toward equalizing your odds. Mess one of the predators up and the other predator will have second thoughts about continuing the attack.

you'd have to make sure to train with the pipe then... otherwise, it'd just be like handing the attacker a weapon.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

They may also take control of the weapon and use it against you.

This point has to be kept in mind...also, once weapons come into play, things get more intense. My instructors have always said "dont bring out a weapon unless you a-intend to use it and b-know how to use it".

All excellent advice. Bringing out a weapon raises the intensity/excitement level. It also has the potential of being used against the wielder--it happens all the time. Using a weapon may be the thing to do but one has to consider it.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador



All excellent advice. Bringing out a weapon raises the intensity/excitement level. It also has the potential of being used against the wielder--it happens all the time. Using a weapon may be the thing to do but one has to consider it.

The use of a weapon against one or even more than once assailant, could make the law your enemy. Yes, boys and girls let us assume you have trained and even can keep it from the bad guys. You use it and they get hurt, which requires ambulances or police can lead you to be the aggressor. The bad guys lie and say she looked like she needed help and we just went over to help her.

Now, if the woman is against two men, most likely the system will look at it as self defense. But most does not mean all. Use the eyes and ears, pay attention before you get there, and if they surprise you use the cell phone or whistle, and the other good ideas here. Yes defend yourself, but remember when the mother of the bad guys comes after you the instructor in court because you told someone women to carry a pipe and to hit people in the head with it.

Use common sense, use good awareness techniques, use your self defense if needed, and the use of a weapon if you have it and are prepared to use it. Just be aware of the results.

Sun Tzu "The Art of War' - this is not a direct quote, but close enough. If there are multiple lines of defense people will not defend the first line since they know they can fall back to the next line. This will keep on happening until the last line. The weapon at the car could be the last line, yet would the person in question gone back inside or done something different if they did not have that last line of defense that they went forward looking for.

Just some food for thought.

Rich

[Kenpo Wolf]

Of course the weapon can be used against you but weigh the altenative. A lady is going to be attacked by two men. Is she going to beat them with just her hands? HELL NO!!! Is she going to get hurt or worse anyways? Most definitely. Predators like this use fear and brutality to get what they want. Take away the fear they have over you and one of their major weapons are gone. If the predator does'nt know you have a available weapon, hence it being attached to the car, how can they defend against it? Even if a predator sees a weapon in a lady's hand, what is chance of him being skilled enough to take it away without getting A broken arm or busted open in the process? Without a weapon against two men, a lady will likely get very badly hurt at the least. With a weapon, trained or not, at least she has a fighting chance

[Chiduce]

As far as the mall situation. It seems that the mall parking lot patrol would be observing from at least one post in the car's direction. Plates probably would have already been checked just after closing. If she had denied the escort to her car, it would explain why she was walking alone. The use of weapons should be very discrete on her part. Short dark colored and relatively small, if not black needles, over-sized (not very large) pins, sturdy safety pins for raking and scraping and even puncturing the eyes would be a suggestion of basic natural tools to weapon transformation in the lady's arsenal. Single edged razor blades darkened with a black marker are also very good tranformation tools. These natural tool weapons can very easily be concealed within the hand and or fingers without notice. This would also buy her time to be in one piece when the authoritites arrived from the 911 call. The local martial arts store in the mall where i live has a selection of short sturdy black needles which would serve the female as well as male, as a fine tool of escape in violent multiple attack situation, confrontation. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[TkdWarrior]

When you are walking to your car, the same thing applies, do not walk so close to the car that someone can pop up right in your face. Walking to your own car, give it a wide swing so you can see what is between the cars before you get caught in the fatal funnel. When you are in the funnel, use the mirrors and glass on your car and surrounding cars to check things out.
personally i m bit paranoid about my environment tho i m big fellow to average Indian guy, :)
check out the rest of post inself awarenesss (http://www.donrearic.com/environment.html)
-TkdWarrior-

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Location: A mall parking lot after hours.

Setup: Walking back to your car. Lighting is dark. (Mall kills the lights at 930, its 10:00) Your car is way in the back, by itself. You are half way to your car when you notice a person by it. You also hear someone behind you (aprox 100' back, not directly) You are alone, and the doors back to the mall are locked. Situation at this point is uncertain. No obvious threat yet.

What would you do in this situation?

To the qualified SD instructors watching, what would you advise someone to do here?

:asian:

Ok, if it's dark you won't be able to see a weapon, and I wouldn't think the average woman would be able to use one effectively. I've seen "trained" individuals unable to strike an attacker with a club under training conditions, no way they would be able to do it in real life.

This scenario is a criminals dream; the cover of darkness, a lady alone, a possible accomplice...

SECOND LINE OF DEFENSE: First off, you don't know what's going on, but you don't want to be in the middle of it without assistance. I like the idea of using the cell phone, you can be giving directions to your location and a description of the person(s). If nothing else happens, at least you are being proactive. Even if you don't own a phone, act like you do, they won't know the difference. I wouldn't bother with mall security. In general their are too many malls that I visit, I can't have all of their numbers in easy access. I would call 911 or the local police. Also, DO NOT HANG UP, no matter what. If nothing else the call is recorded and can be used as evidence against them.

You can also act like a police officer. Stop and call out "I'm a police officer, is there something I can help you with?" Of course this calls for some serious role playing, but some people can pull it off. Criminals are not likely to harm a police officer since the penalties are more severe and they may be armed.

Do not approach either person but I would let them know I see them both and head anywhere where there are other people; a gas station, fast food restaurant, etc. Your best friend right now is to let them know you know they are there; you are aware and can offer up descriptions after their arrest. This raises the stakes a bit. Mace or pepper sprays are good to keep on your key chain, which should already be in your hand. Drop the purse and all bags. If they just want money, they got it and you got away without harm. If they don't want it, you are free to run unhindered.

If there are no other places around, head back towards the mall entrance where more people are likely to be exitting. In the very worst case, maybe you can throw something to break the glass doors or windows to attrack attention (nothing draws a crowd better than breaking glass and an alarm). If you pass the person behind you, look them directly in the eye to let them know you're prepared for them.

Finally, as long as the guys are there, bang on the mall doors while facing out and wait for someone to help you. Use your keys to bang on the glass because it's a louder sound.


FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE: If you work at the mall, you should know when the lights go off. Don't let them turn them off while you are still working. I would make the mall keep them on until midnight. I would think for security most malls would do this anyways because they can be sued or it directly threatens their business. If you don't work for the mall, you're shopping too late, go home earlier...

Never go out alone. Always use the buddy system with someone else leaving, anyone else, such as a mall employee, mall security, or a friend. Criminals don't like it when there are several people, possible witnesses and the ability to raise more noise.

Always have your keys in hand when you leave and watch your desination for 10-15 seconds before you venture out.

WhiteBirch

[Chronuss]

now, it is my common experience that usually ladies have gigantic keyrings with every key that they have collected since they were twelve years old resulting in about 29 keys... Now, when you have a distance to walk to the car, always use the LONGEST key on the ring and place it between the forefinger and middle finger along the top of the knuckles with the body of the key facing outward. makes for a nice stabbing and slash weapon. also, many college peoples nowadays have those nifty key lanyards. these are a nice unnoticable weapon to the same effect as parachute cord. we had a class about the lanyards and was pretty nifty.

[Nightingale]

I've got a strap with a clip on it that's about 6" long and attached to my keys. I can put my hand through it and use the keys like a mace.

I've got:
keys to 2 different cars (total of 4 keys, plus 2 alarm click thingies)
keys to my parents house (total of 3 keys)
the four keys for gates in my apartment complex
my mailbox key
my front door key
keys to three of my friends' places and their gate keys (total of 8)
keys to the office and studio at work (3 keys)

so, on my keychain are 24 keys (unless I forgot one or two! LOL)
a kenpo keychain
a rather sturdy carabiner
and a strap.

and I have practiced hurting people with it. Well, ok, I practiced on a couple of canteloupe, but it does do a lot of damage.

[Felix]

Arnisador:

What source told you that weapons being taken away from someone and being used against them happens "all the time"? A link to a Justice Department or other such reputable site would be appreciated, though citing a study or scholarly work by a criminologist or other legitimate expert would be fine too.

I'm pretty skeptical about such claims, but I'd truly be interested in seeing solid evidence supporting them. I have sparred unarmed with people who had training knives and other weapons, and seen others do so, many times. I have seen minimal-armored full contact stick fights where someone dropped a (non-padded) stick and was up against someone who was still armed. I've also talked to cops and ex-cops about this topic. From what I've seen and heard, it is very hard for an unarmed attacker to disarm an armed and determined person, especially if a knife is involved.

Felix

[KenpoTess]

Let's hear what the new members think.

[samurai69]

If there is a way to get back to safety, that would be the best option.

Are there any other cars in the lot? yes, then the person behind may be going to their car so a heightened state of awarness at the current time,maybe slow down and see where the person behind is going, if they are not the threat, they maybe able to assist you, if they are a threat, then one of the following

If you have to, then a verbal fence (acting like a mad banshee) is a good option possibly this can create a fear effect and may induce an adrenal dump in the would be attcker, they may run. You may be able to attract someones attention by the noise too

If you have to attack, then a good weapon is a tightly rolled magazine (if you have one) atleast if you drop it its unlikely they will be able to use it against you :uhyeah:.

If no weapon and there is no chance of escape and you have to fight/defend yourself, then a good pre emptive strike to start things off and continued assault until you can escape or help arrives

[Carol]

Location: A mall parking lot after hours.

Setup: Walking back to your car. Lighting is dark. (Mall kills the lights at 930, its 10:00) Your car is way in the back, by itself. You are half way to your car when you notice a person by it. You also hear someone behind you (aprox 100' back, not directly) You are alone, and the doors back to the mall are locked. Situation at this point is uncertain. No obvious threat yet.

What would you do in this situation?


Depends on what the person is doing. If they are trying to get in to to their own car, I might slow my pace and watch them for a second to ensure that they drive off someplace far away from me.

However...

If they are hesitant about climbing in to their car, I would trip the panic button on my remote so it sets off the alarm and the lights as I am approaching the vehicle. This would hopefully provide just enough distraction for me to climb in to my car without incident.

If my car is isolated, and there is a person just hanging out by my car for no apparant reason, I would have no issue with making a preemptive call to 911 from my cell phone to report where I am and to report the suspicous character. If the situation degrades to where I need to use my skills, I'm confident that the 911 dispatcher will react appropriately.

I love my training, but I know I am not a match for everyone and everything that may threaten me.

[elder999]

My wife is pretty much trained to have the pistol ready in this situation-in fact, it's probably what I'd do, in addition to tripping the panic on the car-having the cell phone ready is a good idea as well, but they often don't work around here-but the pistol, well, that's a machine that works.Yes, we both have CCW, and yes, we usually do.....

[Kacey]

Well... first of all, I wouldn't be in this situation - I would either walk out with someone from work, or get an escort. Given that the best defense is a good offense, I would avoid the situation entirely.

However, this is not always possible for all people. If I had no option but to return to my car under the given circumstances, I would have:

Before entering the mall I would have:

- parked in a direction that allows me to enter my car without having to circle around it
- parked near a light source that doesn't go off - if the mall lights go off, then I would have parked near a street light

As I leave the mall, I would have:

- my keys in hand (which I do anyway), with the biggest key between my fingers, for punching
- my cell phone in easy reach, with 911 dialed, only needing to push the dial button
- my purse ready to swing - have you ever been hit with a purse? Especially one with a large, heavy wallet, 2 metal eyeglass cases, and a novel in it?

Awareness and preplanning are key to self-defense.

[evenflow1121]

This is a very good question, but quite complicated in itself to answer. Its difficult because given such a scenario you are more likely than not to hesitate, I mean its a dark area, you are practically contained there, you have someone by your car and another walking from behind.

I try to keep a watch on the guy behind me as much as I can, for a possible ambush. This is where it gets compicated for me at least, One scenariowould be this: I would try to do is to walk slow, possibly slower than the guy behind me to watch his reaction, since the car is parked way back I d much rather take out the guy closes to me. So at that particular point if the guy from behind gets too close to me or obviously tries to attack me I would go for his groin or knees (I dont really want ot get too much into the techniques because that is just technical would depend on how the person is positioned at the time). Then however you need to ask yourself what if the guy infront standing way over by your car is carrying a gun? Because if he is, party is over, its a dark mall garage, no one is around, mall closed its doors, you get the picture. So the other scenario is you keep walking and pacing yourself at a distance and try to get close to the both of them, still quite difficult two assailants at the same time, and if both are carrying weapons you are going to have a very difficult time coming out of it.

I would try to pick anything up I could find to use as a weapon, I would also try to see if there is any opening to the garage for example the exit, if there is an exit ramp where cars drive off I would actually walk down that ramp and deviate from approaching my car to see what happens. One reason is you may actually find more people or a better lit area as you approach the exit, the other reason is it screws up your assailants trend of thought, they are thinking that you are approaching your vehicle now all a sudden you took a different direction and one of the guys is still way by your car, may save you some time, may give you some time to take the guy behind you out and run to a safe area.

Last, if there is nothing to pic up, dont forget your keys, your keys can be an effective weapon to use.