Has anyone here had any serious training with Pressure Points? It does not matter who the instructor is/was. Just wondering what your thought on the subject are.

thanks!

I just read more on pressure points in the Karate section.

However I am learning pressure points from one of Dillmans students. I have to say that I have found it intresting, if not painful. I have been adding some of the techniques to my Arnis classes. The points work very well with just a small shift in grip position.

We had a seminar with Jack Hogan scheduled, but he cancelled due to illness. I will post notification of upcoming seminars in the advertising section.

Is he teaching you the katsu as well? I've seen clips of some of the pressure-point 'knockouts'. No offense intended to anybody practicing Dillman's system, but I'll have to reserve judgement until I actually experience one of these myself. I won't make any opinions either way until such time.

We use 'pressure points' in Okinawa-te, but they are primarily used as pain induction techniques as distraction or for escape techniques. We don't train them for knockouts.

Won't say the same thing about 'Sifu' Mooney's so-called qi powers. I've seen clips of those as well, and they are not convincing at all. Whoops, sorry. I could go on for a bit about this, and it isn't related to the topic. 'Nuff said.

Cthulhu

No, we are not learning the knock-outs. I'm with you, I will believe it when I experience it.

We also use the pressure points for pain compliance, and escapes. I have Dillmans book, and some of the knock-outs are shown, but without expert instruction I wouldn't try it.

That's good. And if he/she does start teaching you the knockouts, I would demand that the katsu be taught *first*. Just my opinion, but I happen to be paranoid. :)

I've seen Dillman's book, but have never studied it seriously. I may do that if I ever run across it again. I'm becoming more interested in chin na, the Chinese seizing art. Doesn't really rely on pressure points, but there is pain compliance a-poppin'!

Cthulhu

I haven't heard of chin na. Are there any reference areas, websites, books, etc.

I'm always interested in learning pain points.

B&N carries a book called 'Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na', which I probably what I'll end up picking up. I've also heard that many kung fu systems teach chin na to advanced students.

Cthulhu

Thanks I will look for it on my next trip.

If you have any other suggestions for good reference material let me know. I haven't found to many that I thought had many practical applications.

Thanks to everyone for their replies! I appreciate and understand the comments / statements regarding KO's. I did not believe it at all until I had it done to me by Dillman about 12 years ago. I was a believer as I lay on the floor with my head very cloudy after only being struck on the arm.

I have taught pressure points for pain, KO's, the revival method(s), etc in Italy, England, Scotland, Finland, Sweden, and here in the USA. They work!! I have done it on people who I did not know at first.

We probably should not say something does not work, especially if we do not have much experience with it. Myself and I am sure others will be happy to demonstrate this on anyone...and...if you like...I will teach you the revival first.

If you are on the floor though, you will have a hard time reviving yourself.

Mark

I'm interested in learning more about the pressure points.

I wouldn't even begin to train KO's without a very advanced instructor. This is not the time to learn from a book.

If you know any instructors in the Portland Oregon area please let me know.

Well, the reason I'd want to be taught the katsu first is so that if what I'm taught actually works the first time I were to try a pressure point KO, I'd be able to revive the guy! I can envision a whacky situation where a student pressure point KO's somebody, doesn't know the katsu, and just stands around wondering what the hell to do next. :)

Again, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt...I won't formulate any opinions for or against until I experience it for myself. If you're ever in Brevard County, FL, let me know so you can knock me out :)

Cthulhu

Oct 13th Dillman will be in Jacksonville, FL teaching a seminar. If you are truly interested then you will want to make your way there. The seminar will cost around $90. I will be unable to make it, but if you go and are not satisfied, I will have your $ refunded.

It can't get much easier than that.

Mark

I would like to check that out, but Jacksonville is a bit farther than I'd like to drive. Thanks for the heads up, though. If something happens and I am able to attend, I'll be sure to let everybody here know about it.

Cthulhu

Florida is a bit far for me to travel also, but I would be interested in future events.

I would love to host a seminar on the West Coast. I am sure there would be a good response.

Something to look into for the future.

I was told a story once and thought that you could easily replace the "lock" with "pressure point" in the story.

"A man once told another man he could put him into a lock he could not escape from. Wanting to see it the man agreed and the first man put him in the lock. Try as he might the man could not escape the lock. He agreed that this lock was truely unescapable. That there was no counter and was impressed. The first man then let him go. The man in the lock then went back in a fighting stance and said, 'Now, try and put it on.' The first man then went to put it on again and was given a black eye."

Sometimes compliance is our worst enemy.

Im responding to alot of your posts on Pressure Point training.

I have to add my experiences with alot of these techniques.

I have been doing alot of study with them here in the past 10months or so. I am a Corrections Officer so alot of the self defence tactics we use is Pressure Points. And I have to say they are very quick in getting a positive response from someone. Although there are points that dont work on every one so you have to use and have more than just a couple PP in your bag.

But I have also been training with the Dillman RyuKyuKempo and I find it very interesting as well. A good friend of mine I met is very proficient with the dillman studies and he has shared a great deal with me and I use alot of it at work and I have to admit it really works.

for me to say it is 100% effective or effecient I cannot. But i can say that with it used in the correct way or even simply mixed with other certain valued techniques it could be quite extrodanary.

But I also use alot of the Pres Point related techniques with my FMA and Karate training. I had trained with a group of 7 star Praying mantis guys a few weeks ago and they had a great system I liked on joint locks called Chin-Na. I would like to go a bit deeper into that system but seeings how it was at least an 1.5 hour drive, I really kinda let that go. but if anyone gets the chance to learn or Train Chin Na its worth the time.

I like discussing and hearing others opinions on this subject
I'll do my best as a beginer on this post to help. If I can I'll get my friend to start posting for he has alot more expeirence in these PP fields than I.

Cory

If you'd like to delve a bit more into Chin Na, then see if your local Barnes & Noble has the book "Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na" (or something to that effect). It seems to be a pretty comprehensive book, from what I can remember.

Cthulhu

Okay I will thanks.

I would like to learn more about the chin na and how it differs from other pressure point systems.

I have to say although I am still pleased with Dillman and his array of pressure point system, Im sure that maybe thiers other systems such as DimMak etc... that is just as infomative.

Thanks again

Cory

Yang's Martial Arts Association (www.YMAA.com) has several video tapes out on the art of Chin Na (Qinna). I have the tape that complements "Anyalis of Shaolin Chin Na" book. It is very good material.

Also look to Tim Cartmell's translation of some older Chinese texts. The book is called "Practical Chin Na: A Detailed Analysis on the Art of Seizing and Locking".

I HIGHLY recommend the book on TUITE by George Dillman. This book gives some great examples of pressure point techniques and locking techniques working together.
"Stike a point to lock a joint, Lock a joint to strike a point"

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

thanks Jeremy

Maybe the next time we get together you can loan me one of those tapes.

I know we didnt have alot of time yesterday to play due to going to the Karate class and showing Justin.

But one day we should get seriously into the Pressure points stuff.

like alternate training one time for pressure points and one time for stick work.

sounds like a plan.

see ya next week
Cory

Alright, ladies and gents...here's the info on two books on Chin Na (both available from B&N):

Both books are written by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na
ISBN 0-940871-04-1
about 175+ pages

Comprehensive Application of Shaolin Chin Na
ISBN 0-940-871-36-X
over 400 pages!

The same author had two other books at B&N...one on Taiji Chin Na and another on Shaolin White Crane, which I believe is where he garnered his Chin Na knowledge.

Have fun,

Cthulhu

The following information is fron Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's website.
If you are looking for his books, check out www.half.com They have several of his books at discount prices.

-Jeremy Bays


Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming started his Gongfu (or Kung Fu) training at the age of fifteen under the Shaolin White Crane (Bai He) Master Cheng, Gin Gsao. In thirteen years of study (1961-1974 A.D.) under Master Cheng, Dr. Yang became an expert in the White Crane style of Chinese martial arts, which includes both the use of barehands and of various weapons such as saber, staff, spear, trident, two short rods, and many others. With the same master he also studied White Crane Qin Na (or Chin Na), Tui Na and Dian Xue massages, and herbal treatment.

At the age of sixteen, Dr. Yang began the study of Taijiquan (Yang Style) under Master Kao Tao. After learning from Master Kao, Dr. Yang continued his study and research of Taijiquan with several masters and senior practitioners such as Master Li, Mao-Ching and Mr. Wilson Chen in Taipei. Master Li learned his Taijiquan from the well-known Master Han, Ching-Tang, and Mr. Chen learned his Taijiquan from Master Chang, Xiang-San. Dr. Yang has mastered the Taiji barehand sequence, pushing hands, the two-man fighting sequence, Taiji sword, Taiji saber, and Taiji Qigong.

When Dr. Yang was eighteen years old he entered Tamkang College in Taipei Xian to study Physics and also began the study of traditional Shaolin Long Fist (Changquan or Chang Chuan) with Master Li, Mao-Ching at the Tamkang College Guoshu Club (1964-1968 A.D.). He eventually became an assistant instructor under Master Li. In 1971 he completed his M.S. degree in Physics at the National Taiwan University and then served in the Chinese Air Force from 1971 to 1972. In the service, Dr. Yang taught Physics at the Junior Academy of the Chinese Air Force while also teaching Wushu. After being honorably discharged in 1972, he returned to Tamkang College to teach Physics and resumed study under Master Li, Mao-Ching. From Master Li, Dr. Yang learned Northern style Gongfu, which includes both barehand (especially kicking) techniques and numerous weapons.

In 1974, Dr. Yang came to the United States to study Mechanical Engineering at Purdue University. At the request of a few students, Dr. Yang began to teach Gongfu (Kung Fu), which resulted in the foundation of the Purdue University Chinese Kung Fu Research Club in the spring of 1975. While at Purdue, Dr. Yang also taught college-credited courses in Taijiquan. In May, 1978 he was awarded a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering by Purdue.

In summary, Dr. Yang has been involved in Chinese Gongfu since 1961. During this time, he has spent thirteen years learning Shaolin White Crane (Bai He), Shaolin Long Fist (Changquan), and Taijiquan. Dr. Yang has more than thirty years of instructional experience: seven years in Taiwan, five years at Purdue University, two years in Houston, Texas, and sixteen years in Boston, Massachusetts. In addition, Dr. Yang has been invited to offer seminars around the world to share his knowledge of Chinese martial arts and Qigong. The countries he has visited include Canada, Mexico, France, Italy, Poland, England, Ireland, Portugal, Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, Belgium, Iran, Chile, Venezuela, Morocco, South Africa, Holland, Hungary, Spain, and Germany. Dr. Yang has published twenty-four books and twenty-eight videotapes on the martial arts and Qigong. Currently he is president of Yang's Oriental Arts Association, Boston, MA.

Oh, I almost forgot...........

Check out the website www.ymma.com for a good article on the different types of Qinna.

-Jeremy B.

Nothing there. Just a page saying the domain name is taken.

Cthulhu

Sorry about that website address....
The right one is www.ymaa.com

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

I have seen Mr. Dillman on several occaisons, and have been knocked out. I was captured on tape, and I do know that these can be effective, they just don't work on everybody the same way.

True! They do not work the same on everyone. This is where study comes in. If one is familiar with body types (endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph or enrgy types Fire, Water, Wood, Metal, earth) then your choice of techniques will be greatly increased. Unfortunately many high ranks do not want to feel like a white belt again, but we all are. If we are not growing then we are dying. Mr Dillman continues to amaze me with his sharing of information. I have been with him almost 14 years so yeah, I am pirvy to more than someone on the outside.

good posts!

Mark

Have any of you pressure point guys ever run across somebody who just couldn't be knocked out? This is just curiosity. Whether it be some type of conditioning or the person was just a freak of nature :). I'm referring to pressure point KO's now...no fair cheating by clubbing 'em over the head with a pipe wrench :D

Cthulhu

I actually had a student who could not be knocked out. My instructor at the time (a 7th Degree Black Belt under George Dillman and a 5th Degree in American Kenpo) tried several times to knock out this guy and it wold not work. Mr. Dillman claimed the guy needed to see a accupuncturists to get help with his Chi flow.

No, that wasn't a request :rofl:

I think it's just more likely that the fella just couldn't be KO'd that way. That, or your instructor may have just needed more time to adjust the techniques to that particular person's body.

Or, you were trying to KO Clark Kent and didn't know it :D

Cthulhu

Mr. Dillman said that there is a low percentage of people that just can't be knocked out. He could take all the banging we gave him and not bruise. . This guy doesn't feel heat on his arms, he would burns himself at work with grease and not notice it. Mr. Dillman said that he had a problem with the flow of his chi. It turns out he guy had a problem with his liver, and had work done by a accupuncturists and seems to be doing ok.

Owie. Personally, I like knowing that my body will tell me when I'm too close to hot grease and/or fire :D

I often run across people who can't use pressure points on me, but I don't believe I'm particularly impervious to them or anything. They're just not doing them right. Usually, the instructor will come along to see why they're having problems and I end up writhing in pain for a bit. :)

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I often run across people who can't use pressure points on me, but I don't believe I'm particularly impervious to them or anything.

I have not had them successfully used on me for knock-outs and with only limited success for pain. After the last George Dillman seminar I was once again covered with black-and-blue marks from people trying desperately to find points on me. I would like to be knocked out sometime--I remain a skeptic. But Mr. Dillman does have some great information.

Hi

I am more than interested in pressure points and indeed teach both pressure point application and revival techniques as part of our advanced syllabus.

However, there are attackers out there who are immune to pressure points, particularly attackers with layers of thick padded clothes.

Pressure points are great but if you go for one in a real situation you betted have a damn fast and effective follow up in case it fails or you're history.

I have little experience learning/doing myself. I have had people of varying backgrounds try pressure points on me, with no success. I would love to have someone knock me out with light manipulation of pressure points. At this time, I remain highly skeptical.

- Kyle

Go meet Rick Moneymaker at a seminar and say 'Hey pressure point knockouts don't work'

The world of pressure points looks different from a prone position.

Some of it I'll buy. Some of it I won't. (I'm a big fan of the pipe wrench method anyway)

Dillman has some good stuff that can be very useful. But then again telling people he grew his belly big to protect his pressure points there kinda throws me.

Ed Parker once was told by a man that he could put him into a lock he couldn't get out of. Ed Parker said "ok" and when it was on he agreed he could not get out of it. Then after he was let go he stood back into a ready sort of stance and said, "Now try and put it on."

My point? Sure some pressure points work. Trying to apply them on some guy swinging isn't as easy as people think. Not to say it's immpossible, just not as feasible as one would think. Now most of the pressure points work in the "Ideal phase." Outisde of that I don't know.

Hi all,

This has been a very interesting thread. I've seen Dillman demos before...and it seems pretty impressive. Of course (like the analogy of the armlock) most techiques look impressive with a willing opponent.

I feel that many people put too much focus on pressure points. Recently while training with a kohai, I was doing a technique that ended with a Shuto to Uko (nape of neck). The kohai asked, "What if I turn and move away from you? Then you can't hit that point." I said, "Do that." He demonstrated what he was referring to and the motion of his movements brought another kyusho towards me and my downward traveling fist (shichibatsu...top ridge of the pelvis from the back/side).

He seemed to be quite shooken up by this idea. He was so set on hitting "the point" that the rest of the body was ignored. The body has enormous amounts of kyusho and to constrict yourself to "that one target" will put you into a very difficult situation. I explained to him that we are defeating the negative emotions of the attacker through his body...not one specific point.

Pressure points are just another tool in your repitoire. They just help what you are doing, if you know what you are doing. I look at them the way I look at a good book or video, just something to help with my training.

Some people think they are greater than sliced bread, but you still have to have martial arts basics to employ them properly. People also have to learn which direction to attack the points, which also means the person has to have more knowledge than what most people think.

I have been knocked out from pressure points and I have seen people try to knock me out after they have attended a seminar. They lack the knowledge to do so properly. Like a said they are just another tool to help me be a better martial artist.

Agreed hands down, Rob. Kyusho is much like anything else in martial arts. There's the age ol question of, "What is more effective, striking or grappling?". If you're limiting yourself to one or the other, you're lacking period.

So though kyusho are incredibly effective...I feel that if it's the entire basis of what is being practiced, there's far too much to loose.

Generally Speaking, I would say that preasure points are effective, but you would have know a bit more than just the points. I mean, just knowing a set of preasure points is not going to get you far, you probly have to have another system of selfdefense aswell. But for the most part, when i'm being driven in the ground by a boshiken to the upper part of my waist line, my eyes are wide open, and i'm in excruciating (sp) pain. ;)
That's just my uneducated opinion.
Steve

Here is a great book on Chin Na:

PRACTICAL CHIN NA: A DETAILED ANALYSIS OF THE ART OF SEIZING AND LOCKING, by Zhao Da Yuan (translated by Tim Cartmell).

Just a sidebar about applying Chin Na techniques...

Gou Ronin had a great point - no one is going to just let you grab them and apply a joint lock on them. Soften them up first with a nice hard strike or kick...then break their arm.:)

You must have your fundamental strikes, kicks, and footwork down in order to set up the optimum conditions for applying a Chin Na technique -- distracting pain and the element of surprise.

Originally posted by Zujitsuka

Gou Ronin had a great point - no one is going to just let you grab them and apply a joint lock on them. Soften them up first with a nice hard strike or kick...then break their arm.:)


More important than the pain and distraction in my opinion is the motion. This is the bane of all beginners: They learn a wrist escape only to find it doesn't work on their friends in the usual static demonstration situation. Get them moving--break their balance--and things are much better. The joint locks will flow much more smoothly. The pain certainly helps but the off-balancing and the motion is what really does it, to my mind.

Off-balancing is such an important part of so many techniques in so many arts, but too few arts (or perhaps I should say instructors) emphasize the fact that it's a component of many if not most techniques. I'm glad I did some judo and some aikido so as to gain an appreciation of that fact.

Great point Arnisador. I agree that a person must be in motion to achieve the best results with a Chin Na technique. However, you must still preface your techniques with good 'ol fashion pain. Once you deck your opponent, you can close the gap and apply a Chin Na technique or break his balance for a throw.

A good example of moving when applying a Chin Na is this:

When applying an outside wrist turn (kote gaeshi in Japanese), you will get the best results when turning your body 180 degrees while pushing the wrist down and right or left (depending on the direction of your turn). This will drop your opponent.

Originally posted by Zujitsuka
I agree that a person must be in motion to achieve the best results with a Chin Na technique. However, you must still preface your techniques with good 'ol fashion pain. Once you deck your opponent, you can close the gap and apply a Chin Na technique or break his balance for a throw.


Yes, I think that there are at least four components to the set-up to a joint lock: Pain and the accompanying loss of focus/decrease in resistance/interruption of their attack; off-balancing that is disconcerting and that hinders an effective response/escape; motion for the simple reason that, as Newton's First Law of Motion tells us, things in motion tend to remain in motion and things at rest tend to remain at rest (that is, just as it's harder to start pushing a stalled car than it is to keep it rolling once you've started, it's easier to put on a lock if the body part and perhaps the whole body is already moving); and finally distraction to keep the person from realizing they're being put in a lock until it's too late, possibly due to the pain, possibly due to the off-balancing, possibly due to the motion from a technique that spins a person into a lock, and possibly due to the old "Look out behind you!" trick. (One musn't underestimate the utility of these ploys!)

A solid punch could easily accomplish all four of these at once; an aikidoka might spin the person around into the lock, which is a different way of accomplishing at least most of these goals; either way, this is what one wants to do first.

Speaking for myself, however, I still believe that getting the arm in motion is the most important of these components. I'd like to have all four, but if I had to order them by importance I'd say motion, off-balancing, pain, distraction. Of course, this is no doubt strongly influenced by the type of locks I'm imagining applying.

Well said Arnisador.

I've been staggered by Mr. Dillman at a seminar, where he grabbed by wrist and struck my neck. I believe it works, but again, I was a willing guinea pig.

Some thoughts for discussion from www.straightblastgym.com:
Frequently asked question:
I don’t see what the difference is between what you teach, and NHB training. What about Self Defense! Some of us just want to go home to our families and don’t care about brawling it out in a ring.
Answer, posted online:
This is a question that is becoming so common I thought I would try and address it as simply as possible.
The idea that there is such a thing that is "self defense" training is in and of itself yet another in a long line of martial arts myths.
Let me explain. What works in "sport" is what works against resisting opponents. Much of what is passed of as to "deadly" for sport, is simply technique which will not work against resisting opponents. Obviously there are some foul tactics (such as biting and eye gouging) which could never be allowed in sport. But, would you really want to go tit for tat with a Rickson Gracie, or Tom Erickson by biting or eye gouging?


Scary, but I tend to agree with GouRonin. You can do some crazy chit if your opponent is willing, or if there is a large enough gap between your skill levels.

Originally posted by Icepick
I've been staggered by Mr. Dillman at a seminar, where he grabbed by wrist and struck my neck. I believe it works, but again, I was a willing guinea pig.

I go to Mr. Dillman's seminars when I can; I have always come away with much wheat and a constantly increasing amount of chaff. On balance it's well worth my time and money.


The idea that there is such a thing that is "self defense" training is in and of itself yet another in a long line of martial arts myths.
Let me explain. What works in "sport" is what works against resisting opponents. Much of what is passed of as to "deadly" for sport, is simply technique which will not work against resisting opponents. Obviously there are some foul tactics (such as biting and eye gouging) which could never be allowed in sport. But, would you really want to go tit for tat with a Rickson Gracie, or Tom Erickson by biting or eye gouging?


As is so often the case, there's some truth in that but I can't really agree. Mindset--aggressiveness--makes the biggest difference in most fights and in many competetive sports, I think, but it is a different attitude (for most of us), "I want to win" vs. "I want to live". True aggressiveness will equal out a lot of skill. Not all of it, of course, but a lot of it. Because of this, what will stop someone who is fighting for money is not necessarily the same as what will stop someone who is fighting for survival.

But I would agree that there's a large overlap, both in terms of the level of intensity and in terms of techniques. One needs to be able to stop someone who doesn't want to be stopped in both cases. Training in combat sports, and developing the focused, controlled aggression attitude associated with boxers, will serve a person well.

One of the key reasons the militray still trains soldiers in hand-to-hand combat is because it builds self-confidence. Serious training in serious techniques with a serious mind works. For me, I prefer to enjoy the arts now.

I like the spot above and behind the elbow. My favorite is the back of the mandible. Have you noticed how freakily flexible some people's fingers are?