Hello!
I have no training what-so-ever in any Sword Art. My background is in Kenpo, yet I am interested in learning a solo form of Swordsmanship. Something that I can train in alone. I have no particular interest in rank or associations (not to insinuate that these are bad things :) ).
I suppose that I am more interested in the focus and awareness that I have heard Iaido provides to those who train diligently. Is it possible to train independently in Iaido?

I understand that learning from a book or video is far, far inferior to live instruction and may never lead to any great skill; however, in this endever, that's ok with me. I doubt that I will ever seek formal training (with the sword), and I will certainly never present myself to another as having had any formal training(with the sword). It is something extra that I wish to do in privacy...just for me.

So, with this in mind, is there anyone here that is willing to point me in the right direction? Which videos or books are the best at conveying knowledge?
More importantly, what dangerous pitfalls should I avoid?

More importantly, what dangerous pitfalls should I avoid?
Here's the major pitfall you should avoid. This is from a gentleman that posts on swordforum.com. He is quite familiar with swords, and had been teaching himself iaido out of a book for a while now. The problem is that books and videos can only give you a general idea of what you are doing. With no instructor to tell you where you are not correct, something like this can happen from just trying to resheath your sword (that's how it happened). He can only move two fingers on that hand now. Please think about this before you decide to try and teach yourself.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/pgsmith/Cut_arm.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/pgsmith/exitwound.jpg


Good luck!

Not only was the hand somewhat disabled, he nicked two major arteries and if someone hadn't been there to slap a tourniquet on quickly, he would surely have bled to death.

And in answer to your question, no you cannot train in a JSA without someone to teach you. You can swing a sword around all you want, but you won't be doing a JSA. You'll be swinging a sword around. There's a BIG difference.

If you tell us where you are, we can probably point you towards a training oppurtunity somewhere in your vacinity.

Ok, well that was quick and painless. Thanks for the input.

Maybe there's something that I can learn using a Bokken...

Okay, I just have to comment on this guy in the pictures...

Umm...wouldn't an Iai-to (not sure if that's the right word for "unsharpened practice sword") have been a good selection for trying to learn this stuff at home. I mean, if you have no experience with a sword, why on earth would you want to train with a razor sharp one???

It strikes me that a live blade should be handled with the same respect as a loaded firearm. An untrained person whipping a sharp sword all over the place is incredibly dangerous.

To cause that kind of injury he must have tried to sheath his weapon we alot of speed and power. Doesn't precise speed and power with a sword take years to develop properly so you won't hurt yourself?

SHEESH!!!! Darwin awards are calling his name...

Okay, I just have to comment on this guy in the pictures...

Umm...wouldn't an Iai-to (not sure if that's the right word for "unsharpened practice sword") have been a good selection for trying to learn this stuff at home. I mean, if you have no experience with a sword, why on earth would you want to train with a razor sharp one???

It strikes me that a live blade should be handled with the same respect as a loaded firearm. An untrained person whipping a sharp sword all over the place is incredibly dangerous.

To cause that kind of injury he must have tried to sheath his weapon we alot of speed and power. Doesn't precise speed and power with a sword take years to develop properly so you won't hurt yourself?

SHEESH!!!! Darwin awards are calling his name...

I suspect that if the individual in the pictures had been using an iaito he would have been in a great deal MORE trouble. Sharp edges make nice clean cuts. Clean cuts are far preferable to nasty jagged tears. Believe me if he had done the same thing with an iaito, he still would have pretty much ran his arm through. Iaito are plenty sharp on the pointy end to have wreaked enourmous damage. I suspect the surgeon who managed to stich the arteries back together would have had a much more difficult time of it had the arteries been torn apart instead of severed.

You can certainly train by yourself when it comes to Iaido, but you should still at least get a set of basic fundamentals, before you start practicing on your own.

Also, until you are familiar with the handling of a sword, I would suggest practicing with a wooden bokken. While it's not quite the same as drawing it from a scabbard, you can still practice the art of drawing from a belt or a sash.

BTW, Mr. Mahan is correct, in that you can still injure yourself with an unsharpened sword! Yes, this also applies to bokken as well.

Once you get your bokken, maintain it regularly, using boiled linseed oil, some fine sandpaper, and a lot of elbow grease.

You can certainly train by yourself when it comes to Iaido, but you should still at least get a set of basic fundamentals, before you start practicing on your own.

Also, until you are familiar with the handling of a sword, I would suggest practicing with a wooden bokken. While it's not quite the same as drawing it from a scabbard, you can still practice the art of drawing from a belt or a sash.

BTW, Mr. Mahan is correct, in that you can still injure yourself with an unsharpened sword! Yes, this also applies to bokken as well.

Once you get your bokken, maintain it regularly, using boiled linseed oil, some fine sandpaper, and a lot of elbow grease.Iaido with a bokken? Now that isn't a bad idea... Certainly something I could do without risking anything other than a bad bruise or three.
I didn't realize that a bokken had to be maintained.
Great information here! Thank you.

If your self-instructing through media (book, video, etc.) then I think that you should use a wooden bokken, or some other not sharp tool. You can learn a lot and have fun without hurting yourself. Then, if you decide you really like it, seek out a competent instructor and then play with a real blade under supervision.

Paul

Iaido with a bokken? Now that isn't a bad idea... Certainly something I could do without risking anything other than a bad bruise or three.
I didn't realize that a bokken had to be maintained.
Great information here! Thank you.

Glad it helped. In general, some types of wood need more treatment than others. Regardless of the wood used, you don't want the wood to get too dry, since this can make it much more susceptible to cracking.

Giving a bokken a light coating of boiled linseed oil (don't get regular linseed oil; it will never dry out / cure in time), will help insulate it against extremes. Follow this up with a light sanding, using fine grit sandpaper.



BTW, here's an example of a bokken that comes with a scabbard (so you could get a bit more of a realistic feeling), just in case:

http://www.woodenswords.com/AMA/saya.htm

You can certainly train by yourself when it comes to Iaido, but you should still at least get a set of basic fundamentals, before you start practicing on your own. Yeah, you can do this if you do not care that you will be doing things wrong and ingraining them. If you ever get a chance to learn by a real teacher; you must find a way to unlearn all the bad habits you acquired. If all you want to do is go out in the backyard and play swordfighting, do so; however, if you are serious about learning JSA, wait until you find a good teacher. And as a side note; you do not have to oil a bokuto unless you are engaging in hard contact kumitachi on a regular basis.

Ouch! Those pictures hurt me. My iaido sensei cut himself once when an old scabbard gave way during a cut, but it was not nearly that bad.

When I studied, we started with a bokken, then an iaito, then--only if desired--a live blade.

I hop every thing works out for him

The gentleman in the photo was attempting to learn from a book and was trying something he wasn't ready for when he ran his arm through. The actual sword inflicted wound is difficult to see in the picture. Due to the massive internal bleeding that came from the severed arteries, the ER docs had to make the long elbow to wrist incision to allow the pooled blood to drain out.

Here's the original thread
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

I practice a tai chi form with an unsharpened steel practice blade. There are a couple of quick movments in the form that could lead to a very nasty injury like that. I wonder if I should get a wooden version of the sword I use? I just like the practice the form and the fundamentals. Why put myself at a greater risk if I don't have to?

If your self-instructing through media (book, video, etc.) then I think that you should use a wooden bokken, or some other not sharp tool. You can learn a lot and have fun without hurting yourself. Then, if you decide you really like it, seek out a competent instructor and then play with a real blade under supervision
Right on.

One of the other MT members sent me a link to a JSA studio. It's several hours from my house, but it is good to know the nearest location of a qualified instructor.

BTW, here's an example of a bokken that comes with a scabbard (so you could get a bit more of a realistic feeling), just in case:

http://www.woodenswords.com/AMA/saya.htm That is perfect! Just the type of bokken I'm looking for. Thank you very much.

Yeah, you can do this if you do not care that you will be doing things wrong and ingraining them. If you ever get a chance to learn by a real teacher; you must find a way to unlearn all the bad habits you acquired. If all you want to do is go out in the backyard and play swordfighting, do so; however, if you are serious about learning JSA, wait until you find a good teacher. And as a side note; you do not have to oil a bokuto unless you are engaging in hard contact kumitachi on a regular basis.I don't really place alot of value in self-instruction unless one has at least a couple of years under a live instructor, so I'm not too concerned with ingraining incorrect posture unless it will lead to a horrible self-inflicted injury :uhohh: .

Really, I view this (Iaido) as an interesting form of meditation. The serene calm comes before the flash of the blade. It's the 'serene calm' part that I am interested in.

I don't have any interest in 'playing swords'. If that were the case, I'd be looking into Chanbara :) .

Why put myself at a greater risk if I don't have to?Yeah, my thoughts exactly! I'd be perfectly happy with a bokken.



Honestly, this is just something extra that I want to do. I don't need to be on the road to sword mastery; I'm far to busy trying to master other aspects of life for that road anyway. This will serve me as a form of meditation.

I'm glad that there are people out there who are willing to give some decent advice in this area. Thanks!

If meditation is what you are after? Why not just take up meditation? Why bring swords into it at all?

If meditation is what you are after? Why not just take up meditation? Why bring swords into it at all?Why do some people choose moving mediatation instead of stationary meditation?

Why would I bring a bokken into my moving meditations?

The answer is rather simple: I want to. I choose to.

If I decide that this is enjoyable and beneficial then it will become a fixed part of my day. If I decide that it has no benefit then I will discard this method. I am free to experiment. We all are.

Why do some people choose moving mediatation instead of stationary meditation?

Why would I bring a bokken into my moving meditations?

The answer is rather simple: I want to. I choose to.

Then why call it Iaido?

Then why call it Iaido?Okay.
It really isn't anything that I'm interested in arguing over.

I see in your profile that you are a Godan in Iaido. I understand that you are quite possibly offended by the fact that I take this subject lightly. For me, it's no big deal. For you, it looks as if it is a lifelong pursuit.

I respect anyone's dedication to their choosen art. If it bothers you that I am not interested in fully entering the realm of Iaido to the extent that others have, I am more than willing to call it something else. A catchy phrase does come to mind: 'Psuedo-Iaido', or perhaps 'Meditative Psuedo-Iaido', or maybe just call it 'meditation with a stick'. Yes, I think the name, "Meditation with a Stick" is possibly the most appropriate.

Problem solved.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Well what you're after just strikes me as odd. I'm a rather simple individual. I wanted to learn Japanese Swordsmanship and lucked out. There was a fantastic instructor who just happened to live in my suburb of a suburb of a suburb of Dallas. If I had wanted to learn meditation, I would have joined the local zen meditation group. If I just wanted to whack stuff with sticks and get a great cardio vascular work out, I coulda joined the local SCA or Amtgard chapter. If I'd wanted swordsmanship with a competitve edge, I'd have joined Kendo. I'm not really interested in making up my own stuff, so if I wanna do something I do it. I don't understand why people insist on making up there own stuff, which is what you are doing, and I'm genuinely curious about what makes people do it when there are usually other options to be had. That's why I was asking. It's not that what you do bothers me really. I don't really care what you do, where you do it, or who you do it with, but I was curious about why you would do what you were talking about.

Well what you're after just strikes me as odd. I'm a rather simple individual. Okay, I understand this.

...I'm not really interested in making up my own stuff, so if I wanna do something I do it. I don't understand why people insist on making up there own stuff, which is what you are doing,...Not at all. I'll pick up a good Iaido video and work with a bokken. I am not making anything up.

In meditation classes you don't find the practice of obtaining a form of serenity and then acting violently with an extension of your body. In Iaido you do find this. It interests me. I honestly could not figure out why that bothered you.

and I'm genuinely curious about what makes people do it when there are usually other options to be had. That's why I was asking. It's not that what you do bothers me really. I don't really care what you do, where you do it, or who you do it with, but I was curious about why you would do what you were talking about.I must have read some animosity into your posts when that wasn't what you intended to communicate.
I am a Kenpoist. I have no problem reaching out and trying to absorb something that may be useful. Iaido is something that I am interested in. At this time I do not have the ability to commute back and forth to OKC; although, a visit to the JSA studio there would be beneficial.

Then why not do it for real? Why play at it? You have access to top notch instruction. How far is it to OKC that commuting is a big problem?

How far is it to OKC that commuting is a big problem?I'm taking 20 credits this semester in addition to clinicals. Honestly, I don't have the ability to commute to OKC at this time.

If you're happy, enjoy! We all have different goals in studying--all the more so for an art that no longer is of practical import.

Two schools here in Albuquerque teach iaido, and I hope to check them out soon. I have no idea how I'll choose between the styles if the instructors are equally impressive!

I too have the same problem, but even compounded. There nearest anything is 5 hours away from where I live, in the middle of rural Nebraska. Sorry, but I am not going to drive and pay a ton of money just for maybe a few hours of instruction each month. I have taken Korean Sword before. I have no intentions of ever fighting a live opponent. And if I did, I would find it fun to see if what I invented worked. Other than that, sword dueling is not going to come in handy in real life because let's face it, no one walks around anymore challenging each other for a duel. That is my humble opiuon. No insult to anyone who has the time money and motivation and access to instruction to dedicate themselves to the study of their art.

Take care,
John

I have taken Korean Sword before. I have no intentions of ever fighting a live opponent. Was Shim Soo Do the Korean art that you were studying? I thought Shim Soo Do was interesting. I was surprised to learn that the weapon that is used is very similar to a modern movie sword, the 'ninja-to'.

Other than that, sword dueling is not going to come in handy in real life because let's face it, no one walks around anymore challenging each other for a duel. That is my humble opiuon. No insult to anyone who has the time money and motivation and access to instruction to dedicate themselves to the study of their art.That's the primary reason that I am not to concerned with ingraining bad habits through media instruction. Anyone who attacks me with a sword is probably a psycho that will spend the rest of his/her life in prison. ...and I doubt that I will have a sword handy in order to defend my self. Guess I'll have to look into the ancient way of defense against lunatic swordsmen: 'Office Chair Do'.

I've heard it said that in the seitei iaido techniques, changes were made to techniques that made them less functional but more aestheticly pleasing. I don't know if this is true!

Originally Posted by Basicman:
Other than that, sword dueling is not going to come in handy in real life because let's face it, no one walks around anymore challenging each other for a duel. That is my humble opiuon. No insult to anyone who has the time money and motivation and access to instruction to dedicate themselves to the study of their art.But that's not the point of taking a sword art. People study a sword art for different reasons - none of them with the intent of "real life" dueling (I hope). I study Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, not only because I'm interested in learning Japanese swordsmanship, but also for the self-discipline. It's also interesting to study a fighting system that has been in existence for over 400 years.

If you want to learn *real* swordsmanship, then go to a *real* school. If you are just trying to learn from a book or video, then you aren't studying swordsmanship. You're just playing with swords - and playing with fire if you're using a live blade.

The sword art I studied was Haedong Gumdo. I respectfully disagree that unless you study a formalized sword art, you are "playing" with a sword. While the pictures from that gentleman's accident are terrible and he had a good outcome, IMO those types of accidents are in the minority. Look at how many blades are sold in the US and probably the percentage injured is very small. I am a Paramedic, believe me, if the number of mortal wounds were high with swords, it would be reported in our trade journals. And it isn't. I am not saying that swords are toys, I feel they need the same respect as any weapon. But there is nothing magical or mystical about a sword. I enjoy the workout I get from using a sword.

I undertsand there are many reasons for studying the traditional arts or the through a traditional school, but I feel it is not the only way. A journey has many roads to its conclusion.

I've heard it said that in the seitei iaido techniques, changes were made to techniques that made them less functional but more aestheticly pleasing. I don't know if this is true!
Ok, Take this with a grain of salt. I'm not a kendo guy, nor do I play one on TV.

The Seitei waza were originally drawn from several different koryu sword styles. As a result the original waza chosen, when lumped together, were disjointed and seperate from each other. These waza were modified slightly here and there, not for aesthetic reasons, but to accomplish a number of goals. The first was to tie the various waza together so that they seem more integrated. That doesn't mean that combat effective principles were lost necessarily, but they were changed out in favor of others. This also served to seperate them from their parent koryu so that the kendo renmei would not be seen as trying to teach koryu principles outside the auspices of the original ryu-ha. So the net i that they are stilll reasonably thought out and effective if performed well, but somewhat different from the original waza in places.

Perhaps a kendo exponent will come along and expand on what i'm saying, but that's what i've gathered from a few years of forum hopping and speaking with various JSA folks in and out of the Kendo renmei.

This has been a very interesting thread. I am glad to see that so many people favor proper education when handling a deadly weapon. I wonder if everyone feels the same about firearms?

I'm starting a thread about this in the firearm forum.

Firearm Education (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=427859#post427859)

Thanks Mr. Mahan. That makes sense!

I respectfully disagree that unless you study a formalized sword art, you are "playing" with a sword. Personally, I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that statement. If you are making up your own stuff, and using your sword for a workout, you are not studying swordsmanship. The techniques and teaching methods of the Japanese sword were created back in a time when the sword was actually used. If you aren't doing these techniques or learning in the proscribed teaching methodology, you have no idea whether what you are doing is real or crap. Since you are just guessing at what is essentially a life or death art, you aren't truly practicing, you're just playing. Don't get me wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as you're careful. Swords are fun, and not everyone wishes to dedicate themselves as much as necessary in order to properly learn. That's cool, and I understand it. I just object to people trying to delude themselves into thinking they truly are "training" in sword arts just because it sounds more macho than playing. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
While the pictures from that gentleman's accident are terrible and he had a good outcome, IMO those types of accidents are in the minority. Look at how many blades are sold in the US and probably the percentage injured is very small. I am a Paramedic, believe me, if the number of mortal wounds were high with swords, it would be reported in our trade journals. And it isn't. I am not saying that swords are toys, I feel they need the same respect as any weapon. But there is nothing magical or mystical about a sword. I enjoy the workout I get from using a sword. Yes, the injuries are in the minority. However, they can be terrible. We don't have a high profile lobby like the NRA to object if politicians decide to use swords as a rallying point to garner votes. If more people start getting hurt or killed with swords, and they tell the media that they "train" in Japanese swordsmanship, then the media will make no distinction between proper training and people playing. If swords get banned, how can those of us in legitimate dojo make a case for allowing us our swords for training when it's considered exactly the same as every Joe and Bob playing with their sword in their own backyard? That's one of the problems facing some in Australia at the moment. That's why you'll always find those that train under a qualified instructor object when people try and say they are teaching themselves iaido.

Paul Smith

While the pictures from that gentleman's accident are terrible and he had a good outcome, IMO those types of accidents are in the minority. Look at how many blades are sold in the US and probably the percentage injured is very small.Although those injuries may be in the minority (at least compared to the number of firearm accidents), many of those injuries could have been avoided with proper training. Same with many firearm injuries. Swords and firearms are not playthings. They were created with the intent of maiming or killing another human being, and should be treated with the utmost respect.

I don't think that anyone here believes that a sharped sword is a plaything.

I'm fine with a dull blade. I have no desire to actually cut anything--there's just something Jungian (or, I'm sure some would say, Freudian) about a sword.

... there's just something Jungian (or, I'm sure some would say, Freudian) about a sword. That's the truth! Hmmmm ... both schools I practice require longer than normal swords. :)

Compensation! :D

Compensation! Bwahahahahahahahaha ... wait .... that's not funny! :)


But I've been told that I swing my sword really well! :D Ok, I'm lying. I just got bitched out this last weekend for being too tense!

I find using a bokken terribly inadequate for learning Iai-do. YMMV
There's a surprisingly large amount of saya manipulation involved in the draw and resheathing as well as in some of the more advanced forms that you simply cannot do with a bokken. One can try to find a bokuto with saya, but they're fairly expensive. The one shown earlier in the thread I don't particularly like, ymmv. During the draw, the saya sometimes bends.

I practice MJER, btw.

My recommendation is to seek out proper sword instruction for a variety of reasons.

1) they'll probably have a good line on practice equipment and apparel. That will save you some grief and $$ on replacing inadequate equipment/apparel as well as tendonitis from poorly balanced swords.

2) they can help you with the fundamentals, from just getting dressed to the proper draw. The proper draw is so very important, because one can seriously damage their koiguchi and/or saya requiring you to replace the saya. That is an EXPENSIVE endeavor.

3) safety issues.

4) correction of your technique so that at least you avoid use injuries and the expense of seeing your doctor about your tendonitis in new and creative places.


Just my opinion, based upon my short experience in Iai.

Rob


Iaido with a bokken? Now that isn't a bad idea... Certainly something I could do without risking anything other than a bad bruise or three.
I didn't realize that a bokken had to be maintained.
Great information here! Thank you.