Losing faith in a favorite instructor

[Sam]

I am livid.
I just got back from saturday's sparring class, and I am NOT happy. After the hour long class, some guys stick around and spar. I was invited to stick around a few months ago and have ever since. Its usually mostly upperbelts and one or two underbelts. (me, obviously, being the latter.)

One of my favorite instructors today randomly decided that orange and purple and blue belts could NOT spar afterwards, with no explaination offered as to why. I was pretty upset about that to begin with because the upperbelts teach me a lot in those 30 minutes after class. No one had recently been injured, nothing bad had happened... but I just sighed and pulled my gear off. Dont argue with instructors after all - he might say NO one can stay after.

A few guys had been in the changing rooms and hadn't heard him. A black belt began teaching an orange belt some things. I didn't say anything because I figured the instructor had said it because I'm a girl and a lot smaller and younger than most of the people sticking around - the orange belt was a 25-ish male who didn't have a problem taking care of himself.

a few minutes later the instructor walks through and sees the orange and black belts sparring. Without mentioning that the reason was rank, the instructor got very angry with the black belt and demanded that they stop at once. The two said okay, and turned to continue to spar. They thought the instructor was joking, because he looked SO angry and the request made no sense. The instructor was like, I'm serious, guys... so they just looked at him, dumbfounded.

heres the part that made my blood boil.

Both the black and the orange belts stopped fighting, but the instructor, who was sitting on the floor, acted as if they had ignored him, saying,

"It's not open for discussion guys. If you got something to say I'll put my gear on right now and beat the F out of you,"

Everyone in the room stopped sparring after that.

I can NOT believe it.

First of all, there was NO reason for him to say anything at all - they weren't arguing with him, they were following his directions.

second of all, that is NOT the way to get what you want. You dont threaten people if they don't do what you want - not that there was any need - they WERE following his instructors.

and third of all, and most importantly in my eyes - HE'S AN INSTRUCTOR!!! Does he not remember the pledge he took at each of his belt testings - "the art of karate for the purposes of defense, never for agression....I make these pledges solomnely and on my honor" did he not take that seriously??? Was that just lip service? He's THREATENING students, isnt he? and what the HELL kind of example is that to set for your students??

I am severely dissapointed in him. I had a lot of respect for him.

and of course, the icing on the cake - the black belt apologized to the instructor - and the instructor said that HE didnt hold grudges... without apologizing himself!!!!

I thought he was such a nice guy... I'm furious. what kind of example is this? why would he do that?

even if your having a bad day that is NO reason to take it out on other people....

GRRRR!

[jfarnsworth]

Most likely the head instructor there that had the problem must have had a reason to make them stop. I can only speculate what it could be. On the other hand most people could type a book here on their various OPINIONS about the situation you were just in. The only thing I can add is to ask him yourself to see what he says. :asian: Do it respectfully of course. :)

[MA-Caver]

True, having a bad day IS no excuse to take it out on people. But instructors are human too and thus subject to falliacies like everyone else. If he's carrying on the same attitude a couple of days later or even a week later then something is wrong and well... like Mr. Farnsworth said... ask him yourself... respectfully. :D

[TigerWoman]

I would cut the instructor some slack. I agree it would be better to ask him.
First thing I thought of, and of course, is speculation, but not letting the colored belts spar sounds like someone has gotten hurt. And they possibly could have threatened litigation, a lawsuit, if they were sparring without supervision. If the instructor is touchy (and we all are at times) the two might have stopped sparring but the one colored belt was not taking off his gear or leaving. It may have looked like they were questioning the instructor. I remember a furor over that more than once in our dojang, usually ending with the student getting suspended or ousted. After, all if it is a safety, liability issue, then it is up to the owner of the school to control. TW

[Lisa]

Hey Sam,

What everyone here has said is very true. Talk to him. Don't do it when you are livid ;). Give yourself time to calm down. Don't confront him in anger. Just tell him you don't understand his decision and that his reaction has you confused. Everyone has a bad day, even those we look up to. :)

[andy]

no matter what your emotional response.
never quit your dream.

[arnisador]

Worrisome.

He probably was having a bad day, but threatening to spar and beat people to enforce his will is a dangerous sign. I wouldn't leave yet...but I'd keep a sharp eye on what goes on from here on.

Let's hope he makes a public apology next class. Hopefully there's a black belt there who feels he can approach him after class, in private. I know if my arnis instructor did something like this, he'd want me to smack him upside the head after class...and I would!

If he doesn't apologize/explain...I'd be concerned.

[Hollywood1340]

I've been taught what goes on off the floor, STAYS off the floor. In my school, this would be unexcusable. It appears VERY unprofessional and furthermore, "They should no better"

[still learning]

Hello, Do not make quick judgements. Please make a appointment to talk to him about whys's. Explain how you feel. Be truefully about your thoughts.

We all have bad days or problems that he might not want to share. He may be having some personal/business troubles.(Guessing?)

Talking to him may make him realize he maybe treating you guys the wrong way. I am sure he is a great guy that's why you are wondering whys he is acting this way? No one is perfect..............Aloha

PS: lets us know what happen if you decide to talk to him? OK!

[terryl965]

samantha sometimes people forget instructors are humans as well no EXCUSES like you said but then adain do you not want people to fotgive you when you are out of line. The thing that gothers me is why would you question his authority his dojaang or dojo his rule's, you have always said nice things about him one day kills him training you of course not sit down and talk make your self feel better and go back and train.
Terry Lee Stoker:asian:

[ave_turuta]

Hello Sam!

Although I believe you have the right to feel concerned about this particular incident, I would ask you not to be too tough on your instructor. While I think the attitude was inappropriate, I also agree with the rest of folks that - contrary to popular belief - instructors, teachers, and the like are also human (yes!) and they make mistakes. I would simply go up to this instructor after class and very respectfully point to the fact that his behavior greatly upset you. If he cares about his teaching skills, he will not only offer you an explanation but also thank you for bringing the matter to his attention. I teach at college level and I am always very grateful when a student comes up to me and points to a particular deficiency either in my style or in what I was saying: teaching is also part of a learning process.

My two cents http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Stay well,
A.T. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif

[lonecoyote]

Don't worry too much about it. Enjoy your class, enjoy the martial arts, you don't have to idolize the man to get something out of your experience. He's shown you how he is, that's all. And rest assured, someday he will say something like that to the wrong man, whether in a dojo or on the street, and that will be the day he gets his medicine.

[Gin-Gin]

Hey Sam, What everyone here has said is very true. Talk to him. Don't do it when you are livid ;). Give yourself time to calm down. Don't confront him in anger. Just tell him you don't understand his decision and that his reaction has you confused. Everyone has a bad day, even those we look up to. :)Sorry to hear about that Sam. I agree with Nalia's advice. Take care of yourself, & please let us know how it goes if you decide to talk with the instructor.

teaching is also part of a learning processVery true :asian:

[Mariel Maeso]

I understand the situation and I think the instructor should not used that kind of language . But if the instructor says that he don't want the underbelts sparing it must be for a reason. I suggest that you talk to the instructor in a very respectful way and told him your bad feeling. Anyway keep practicing!

[The Kai]

Nothing ever happens randomly, there is probably a reason. The language, that's another thing

[kenpochad]

samantha sometimes people forget instructors are humans Terry Lee Stoker:asian:I agree with Terry .

[DavidCC]

The higher the pedastal, the harder the fall. One outburst and the foundation is rocked? Lighten up :)

[Jonathan Randall]

Worrisome.

He probably was having a bad day, but threatening to spar and beat people to enforce his will is a dangerous sign. I wouldn't leave yet...but I'd keep a sharp eye on what goes on from here on.

Let's hope he makes a public apology next class. Hopefully there's a black belt there who feels he can approach him after class, in private. I know if my arnis instructor did something like this, he'd want me to smack him upside the head after class...and I would!

If he doesn't apologize/explain...I'd be concerned.Exactly!

Everyone has a bad day. Everyone has a rude moment. However, threatening someone physically is a sign of trouble. Like anyone else, I have sometimes snapped at people unfairly, occasionally treated people disrespectfully who deserved better, etc.; however, the only time I have ever threatened force was in physical defense of myself. Like Arnisador wrote, keep a SHARP eye out in the future. Sometimes a bad moment is just that, a bad moment, and sometimes it is the REAL person showing through. Hard to tell. Absent the threat of physical violence, I would say forget about it and remember that we are all fallible humans.

In any case, enjoy your training and don't hesitate to respectfully and PRIVATELY speak with the owner/head instructor if you become uncomfortable.

[lonecoyote]

You know, I hate to bring this up, but someone has to. People without self control give themselves their own punishment. Look at how that man has made those around him look at his actions, his behavior. He became smaller. Yes, he is human, but you know what, you can get pissed off at the convenience store, the mall, the jiffy lube, doctors office, whatever, and you're just a human being pissed off. You say something like that in the one place where you should put being in control above all else, a place where you are a teacher, a place where people look up to you, a place where control is perhaps the most necessary attribute one can have to prevent people from being hurt, that speaks to character. And one more thing, I'm a grown man, a lot older than 25, and if someone offers to beat the f out of me, they're going to get the chance to try.

[KenpoEMT]

...Look at how that man has made those around him look at his actions, his behavior. He became smaller. Yes, he is human, but you know what, you can get pissed off at the convenience store, the mall, the jiffy lube, doctors office, whatever, and you're just a human being pissed off. You say something like that in the one place where you should put being in control above all else, a place where you are a teacher, a place where people look up to you, a place where control is perhaps the most necessary attribute one can have to prevent people from being hurt, that speaks to character. And one more thing, I'm a grown man, a lot older than 25, and if someone offers to beat the f out of me, they're going to get the chance to try.Well said!

[RachelK]

I agree with Kai, the language would be a problem for me, too. Although some of my teachres swear (some are military guys and I've found most soldiers swear), they always do so in a joking or good-natured way. My teachers would not swear at us in anger. As far as the policy itself, I would guess that there is some legal issue or some new development that caused your teacher to put a halt to the sparring. Maybe a complaint from a student or parent or some other issue that might be a concern for him and the school. Still, he should have explained the reasoning to you guys...you deserve an explanation.
I'm afraid that a scenario like that might be the end of it for me. But before giving up, I would approach the teacher and ask for an explanation. It's true that teachers are only human. But in some ways, they have to be a little bit different from the rest of us. Teaching is a skill in and of itself and it's not enough to be a good martial artist.
If your teacher doesn't want to explain what happened that day, then I'd find a new one if I were you. But of course, I am me, not you :) So I don't know your whole history with this teacher and I don't want to tell you to leave the school when there might be a lot of good things about training with this guy.
In the style I practice, we have very casual relationships with our teachers. There are no ranks or belts or competitions, and the idea is that we respect everyone equally. Of course, that does not always happen among students, but the teachers treat everyone with equal respect. My teacher would never raise his voice in anger at his students. I sometimes wonder if he ever gets angry, he's so mild-mannered and patient. Sometimes he seems a little exasperated, like if he's told a student the same thing twenty zillion times, but it's more like he just wants the student to get it, not that he's angry. And if the student finally does get it, his eyes just light up. It's obvious that he loves teaching and finds it very rewarding. Maybe your instructor is a skilled martial artist but not cut out to be a teacher...it's a unique skill.
Anyway, I think you ought to approach your teacher and try talking about it. That is usually a good way to handle conflict. Just be honest and say that you were hurt (not insulted!) by what he said. If you tell someone that they hurt your feelings, they can understand that and sympathize, whereas if you tell them they acted inappropriately, they get very defensive. Don't tell him that his behaviour gave you second thoughts about training with him because again, that sort of thing can make people defensive and indignant. But if he does prove to be uncommunicative and doesn't want to explain his actions, then I would not continue to train with him.
Keep us posted, Samantha. I hope it all works out but keep in mind that you have to do what's best for your own training.
Best wishes,
Rachel

[Sam]

Well our school is very big... lets see... *counts* we have 11 instructors or so, and I take my private lessons with a different instructor, so if it really came down to it I could stop going to monday night sparring and friday night group - I'd still get 8 1/2 hours of training in a week - I'd lose two hours but better that than just up an leave...

my friend who got me into kenpo expressed her dislike for this instructor, telling me that they've had problems with him in the past a few months ago, but I didn't see it at all. At least he doesnt act that way that often... I mean, I've been at my studio since september, and I've never had a reason to think badly of him...

anyway, I am gonna talk to my instructor about it (the one I take private lessons with I mean) on thursday which is my next lesson.

[BrandiJo]

I dont have much experence with this kind of stuff, but i know i would be at a total loss if my inst said something like that, 1 the lang isnt alowed in our school and the ofending person will get told about it even if they are of high rank (including black belts) 2 My inst make it clear that you do not get your way with force and last its totaly disrespectful. I would talk to him (like most everyone has said) and be a little leary of him till things settle down.

[Loki]

Sam,

I was gonna go ahead and agree with JR, arnisador, lonecoyote etc. and I do for the most part, but if like you say a friend said he's been troublesome in the past few months, maybe something serious is going on in his life, which would explain a raged outburst.

Any news on the matter?

[Sam]

yeah, I dont know whats goin on.
A while ago I heard the instructor who got mad and a few other instructors talking about the incident. His version of what happened that day was severely different from what I witnessed.

He said that the students who thought he was joking talked back to him and challanged him which caused him to make his foul remarks. The unfortunate thing is that the students that were involved - the one he blamed it on anyway - is severely annoying and tries to coach students (incorrectly) and fancies himself equal to an instructor.

Its not hard to envision the version of events that he presented the other instructors with. I unfortunately was the only other one who witnessed it and I'm not trying to start problems. I don't want to get in the middle of anything and besides, between an instructor and a lower ranking student... who would you believe?

I dont know whats goin on with that instructor, but during his last group class last week, he came out of the instructors dressing room and had clearly been crying.

Something's wrong and I don't know what it is but I hope he works it out soon
or stops taking agressions out on students.

He's better than that.

[Loki]

Gee, sounds like a tough situation.

Hope it works out.

[Mark L]

It sounds like the guy is having some problems, and might benefit from some help. If other instructors are getting involved, and the guy is outwardly showing signs that there's a problem (anger, hostility, denial, crying), the cat's out of the bag. The Chief Instructor/School Owner is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on in the school, he/she should be made aware of the situation (by the other instructors), and deal with it for the benefit of the all involved. If he is the boss, you might want to seek other instruction.

[Loki]

I'd try talking to another instructor I felt comfortable and gently and non-pryingly try to ask if everything's ok with that instructor and convey your dismay that he's taking out his frustration, however legitimate it may be, on his students.

[Hand Sword]

Sam,

I agree that everyone can have a bad day, but, threatening people in that way is completely unacceptable! This instructor is obviously still immature. That kind of stuff is school age stuff, and doesn't belong with someone in his position. That kind of attitude is what gets people killed, or seriously hurt. It has no place in a dojo (or really anywhere), and if it was a student that did that, they would probably get kicked out, or seriously reprimanded. Don't take classes with this person anymore, if there is a chief instructor, go talk to them about it.

[bushidomartialarts]

i'm in with the 'find out why' crowd on this one. an instructor who has earned your trust and respect deserves at the least for you to ask about what went on there.

i've been teaching karate 8 years and coaching for 15. i've lost it with students or instructors three times. all three were mistakes and all three embarass me to this day. all three had 'mitigating factors' and subtext that led up to them.

[Touch Of Death]

I remember a pledge I took once that said not to publicly discuss personal issues about those with whom you train; however, I must have missed the clause that said it was OK if they trained on a different night. Who remembers those pledges anyway?
Sean

[Devin]

Is that pledge standard to Kempo? I've never heard of any such thing before.