Vertical vs. Horizontal punching

[MJS]

http://www.savateaustralia.com/savate%20essays/bare-knuckles%20to%20modern%20boxing.htm


I came across this article and thought that it was pretty interesting. What are everyones choices for throwing a punch?

Personally, I'd rather throw something that would be less likely to injure my hand, such as an elbow, but if I had to choose between the 2, I'd go with the vertical.

Mike

[kenpochad]

I came across this article and thought that it was pretty interesting. What are everyones choices for throwing a punch?

Personally, I'd rather throw something that would be less likely to injure my hand, such as an elbow, but if I had to choose between the 2, I'd go with the vertical.

Mikei like to throw 3/4 i think thats what its called ,
its in the middle of the two. that way your bones in the forarm are lined up with
the knuckles .do you think that this is true ?. and i two like to use the elbow

but one of the two it would be the vertical

[MJS]

i like to throw 3/4 i think thats what its called ,
its in the middle of the two. that way your bones in the forarm are lined up with
the knuckles .do you think that this is true ?. and i two like to use the elbow

but one of the two it would be the vertical

There may be a slight difference between the 3/4 and the vertical, as the elbow is jutting out compared to being down as with the verticle.

[7starmantis]

Hmm, I think the two punches are different, not neccesarily better or worse. I do have a few problems with the article as well. I dont agree that a verticle punch is stronger for the arm, or better because of skeletal alignment. That is an argument often raised in this discussion. However, the skeletal structure is the same from a verticel punch to a horizontal. The difference is "weakness" in the alignment is on a horizontal plain or a verticle one. How can changing the direction of the weakness do away with the weakness altogether? The article said:

Punching with a vertical fist provides for two things – fewer places in the arm for energy to “get lost” (like a bent elbow or wrist) However, if your punching either verticle or horizontal with a locked elbow for "maximum energy" your going to find that the energy is going to find your locked elbow joint and actually release there in the shape of an injury. Having a bent wrist is incorrect in either of the punches. Just turning your punch verticle isn't going to do away with bad habits.
Also:

With a vertical fist, the entire arm is extended in one line from the shoulder through to the fist. The elbow is tucked beneath the arm as opposed to jutting out, and the wrist is kept completely straight Your elbow shouldn't be "jutting out" in either case. Any "jutting" will occur on a verticle plain just as it would on a horizontal one. The truth is to throw a proper punch on either plain, not that just by changing the orientation of your punch you will start throwing proper ones.

Just my 3 cents
7sm

[shaolinDave]

Nice article. Punching this way(verticle) is also pretty common in some styles of kung fu. I know bruce lee used it.

[Jerry]

It's a really nicely written piece on boxing and pugalism, though the punching critique's are not generalized enough that I'd try to wrap them around systems with drastically different punching (say "Systema" for example).

[kenpochad]

i was thinking some on this. i like the vertical when iam inside and going to the body. but when i throw a jab i use a horizontal punch, i dont fell like my shoulder comes up to cover my jaw if i throw a vert. punch like a jab i dont fell like it covers as much
i dont now if it just becouse i ve always go horiz. on jabs and that is what i am use to

[Andrew Green]

Ok, here's my take:

Twisting the forearm at the elbow gives bad alignment. But twisting at the shoulder gives you a horizontal punch that IS aligned properly at the forearm. Also protects your jaw line with your shoulder which is a good thing :D (Like your looking down your arm)

So it is not a horizontal vs Vertical issue, it is a twisting the forearm or not issue. Whether your fist ends up vertical or horizontal after that depends on how the rest of your arm and body behave durring the punch.

[rutherford]

I also prefer not to punch, and am actually concerned about the amount of punching I do in training in order to set up a partner's practice.

But, I punch differently depending on the situation. My basic is a vertical straight up the centerline. But with my knee on somebody's chest for a Ground n' Pound, I'm going to throw horizontals. In neither case is my forearm twisted.

I've actually played with the 180 rotation punch a bit, but just because I think I should know how to do it.

[arnisador]

There's a place for both. I was trained in Isshin early on and adopted the vertical punch, but I now prefer a regular old cross.

[punisher73]

I think it boils down to personal preference (assuming mechanics are correct). One of the main arguments against the horizontal "twist" punch is that the forearm bones overlap so that only one of the bones is taking the brunt of the force.

My question is does anyone know of ANYONE who has ever broken their forearm using a twist punch because they punched so hard that the structure of the arm couldn't take it?

As a follow up, how many people know someone who has sprained a wrist or something attempting a corkscrew punch and had the person move in as they were rotating?

[MJS]

Also:
[/size][/font]Your elbow shouldn't be "jutting out" in either case. Any "jutting" will occur on a verticle plain just as it would on a horizontal one. The truth is to throw a proper punch on either plain, not that just by changing the orientation of your punch you will start throwing proper ones.

Just my 3 cents
7sm

Thats interesting and I didn't even notice until I looked at the pic. right under his statement. Its showing him locking his elbow during the punch..a big no-no.

Mike

[Floating Egg]

I would like to see a scientific study regarding this.

[BlackCatBonz]

the problem i have with the article is the point about the elbow jutting out as well. the mechanics of pronation and supination in the elobow are such, that the base of the ulna stays in place while the radius moves around it. you can test this by putting your elbow on a stationary surface and turning your fist back and forth. as for the medial and lateral rotation of the brachium in regards to throwing a horizontal fist, a properly aligned and mechanically sound punch with a horizontal fist will see the brachium medially rotated and the punch will arrive at its target off center with the elbow bent, while it is indeed important to have a good skeletal structure for stability, it is equally important to have good muscular structure. if you place your hand on your deltoid when you throw a horizontal punch, you will that there are muscles at work helping to stabalize the joint. do this when you are throwing a vertical punch and you will find that only the anterior portion of the deltoid is at work and thus making the SITS (rotator cuff) muscles work harder stabilizing the joint. this is also why throwing an elbow on the horizontal plane is so devastating, you have the rotation of the axial skeleton and all the muscles of the back, abdomen and legs, chest and arm working in concert to create a stable structure and mechanically sound movement during the course of the movement, with a vertical fist you dont have nearly the amount of the body at work.
while both have their place, for a truly powerful punch i would use a horizontal fist.

[searcher]

Having been influenced by an Isshin-ryu instructor that I once had I teach both ways of punching. I find it useful to have both for varying situations. The key I find to preventing injury with either is to get good wrist alignment and a good tight fist. They both have their advantages and weaknesses. The vertical tends to be faster, but does not have the added power of full tricep engagement. The horizontal has more power but tends to be a little slower. I have had tro condition my hands and body to be able to use either one very well. I have found that the use of boxing style punches are fast and wonderfully powerful, but unless you condition your hands you can mess up the skin on your hands from the power of them.

[bignick]

I've always been taught and looked at it as a range issue, a fully extended punch at farthest range is the horizontal fist, but with targets closer than that you will have trouble getting full rotation so you a medium range would use a 3/4 turn and a close in target would use the vertical punch.

[hardheadjarhead]

The observation of the elbow jutting out to the side, what I call "floating the elbow," is valid. This does tend to attenuate the power of a punch by taking the arm out of the axis of the punch. Many schools strive to correct this problem by having their students strive to keep the elbow in close to the ribs when punching. Some don't, and we see some pretty flippy punches.

The notion of the forearm bones being in line with the bones of the wrist in the vertical punch and not twisting as they do in the pronated (horizontal) punch is...I think...unsupported. I've heard people say this twisting binds the ligaments of the arms, causes the bones to cross...all this leading to loss of power and structure.

Sounds good, but I'm not sure its true. It'd be testable in part, I suppose, by having people perform a bench press with a standard bar and a modified bar that allows partial supination (I've seen them), using a Smith machine perhaps for added safety. The problem I see with this test is that in a normal bench the elbows are away from the body with the upper arms at right angles to the torso. This is hardly a horizontal punch structure. It'd be neat if someone could device a bar that would allow the lifter to keep the elbows in and do a full or partial pronation of the wrist as the bar was lifted. I can visualize this...but can't imagine anybody going to that extreme.

I also disagree with the notion that one can hit with the full fist when throwing the vertical. One could hit with the full fist with the horizontal as well...but many styles don't advocate this, prefering to put the energy into the index and middle knuckles and sparing damage to the smaller and more flexible bones behind the ring and pinky fingers.

The vertical punch has one very clear advantage in close in punching, of course. That's why people who snap the wrist over in a horizontal punch only do so near the end of the extension. Its a long range punch. The vertical punch can be either long range or short.




Regards,


Steve

[Flatlander]

It'd be neat if someone could device a bar that would allow the lifter to keep the elbows in and do a full or partial pronation of the wrist as the bar was lifted.Maybe I'm not reading this right, but would a dumbell not work for this?

I've always been taught and looked at it as a range issue, a fully extended punch at farthest range is the horizontal fist, but with targets closer than that you will have trouble getting full rotation so you a medium range would use a 3/4 turn and a close in target would use the vertical punch.Actually, I can shoot out a vertical fist jab much farther than any other punch - its all in the rotation of the shoulders.

[hardheadjarhead]

Maybe I'm not reading this right, but would a dumbell not work for this?
Actually, I can shoot out a vertical fist jab much farther than any other punch - its all in the rotation of the shoulders.

Bars versus dumbells:

You could use a dumbell, but because of the lack of a bar there is greater difficulty stabilizing the weight on a horizontal plane. Dumbells are excellent for working out, but for testing max strength a bar would be required. That said, I'm not sure even a barbell would be a valid test because of the positioning of the elbows. If one kept the elbows in and "down" with either fist position and used a modified Smith machine, we might be able to get an idea of relative strength for each of the hand postures...or we could poll a bunch of orthopedists and see what they say.

Rotation of the shoulder:

When I hold my arm out to the side and turn my palm down from an up position, the shoulder rotates slightly. The reach of the arm doesn't change. Close your palms into fists and try it, rotating them over and back from vertical to horizontal.

Try rotating your shoulders and touching the wall with your vertical fist using maximum extension and reach. Once you've touched it keep it in contact with the wall. Now pronate your fist to a horizontal punch. Nothing changes.

The reach of the punch here is either from the twisting of the hips, which brings the shoulder forward, or by throwing the shoulder forward by flexing the pec and stretching the scapular muscles. Both of these add more reach depending upon a person's body proportion and flexibility. Either of these can be accomplished with the fist in any position...provided the person attempting it has no injuries limiting range of motion.


Regards,


Steve

[still learning]

Hello, Very good thoughts on this topic. Will this be different for Hook punches to the face and body?

It seems the hook "Vertical" to the face may have a better chance of getting wrist broken or is it the "Horizontal" fist?

Punching a hook to the body? will the vertical fist be better?.......Aloha

[Andrew Green]

Hooks thrown horizontal impact with the lower knuckles and can break the hand ("Boxers Fracture")

So hooks are safer palm towards you

[bignick]

Same here, our hooks are thrown with the "vertical" fist

[BlackCatBonz]

you can throw a hook and hit with the knuckles of the index and middle finger quite easily. if you're hitting with the knuckles of the ring and little finger you've probably glanced your punch off of the intended target.
the muscle groups involved for both punches are not entirely different, but with a straight vertical punch coming through your centre, some important stabilizers, IMO, are left out of the mix.
its all about using the right tool for the job.

[arnisador]

I've been taught the hook can be thrown either way, but the "boxer's fracture" comment raises concerns. Still, I think thta, by habit, I usually end up going palm-down.

[BlackCatBonz]

accidents can happen anytime and the boxers fracture is one of them. you can throw a punch to anywhere on the body and, if not correctly timed, you could suffer all different kinds of sprains and fractures. there is no one foolproof method of striking, which is why there are many tools for the job.

[hardheadjarhead]

It seems to me the small knuckles are equally exposed on either hook.

When I throw it with a horizontal fist I find it hard to lead with anything other than the bigger index and middle finger knuckles...but that is likely an issue with the flexibility of the wrist.

Hold your arm out in front of you in the hook position and hold your fist up against something like a wall. Turn your fist from one position to another. What changes?

When I do it I don't notice much of a change insofar as exposure of the knuckles. The pinky knuckles would be closer to the opponent's head, and might be broken if he slipped to the side or faded back, catching them accidentally with his noggin. By the same token they're at risk if he bobs under it and again catches the knuckles just right with the side of his head.

These same risks exist no matter what posture or punch you use. Those small knuckles have to travel with the rest of the hand...and there is always the chance you'll catch him wrong.


Regards,


Steve

[Pale Rider]

I agree that I prefer the 3/4 turn on the punch better. It is more medically sound. I agree 100%.


i like to throw 3/4 i think thats what its called ,
its in the middle of the two. that way your bones in the forarm are lined up with
the knuckles .do you think that this is true ?. and i two like to use the elbow

but one of the two it would be the vertical

[rutherford]

It is more medically sound.

Sources? Reasoning?

[BlackCatBonz]

this is where knowledge of kinesiology is helpful. the upper arm (humerus) can rotate from its relaxed position both medially and laterally. with this understanding, one can apply it to a punch in order to make it as structurally sound as possible. whether the hand is fully pronated or supinated, the humerus will rotate as well to increase the range of motion in the hand. also, the muscles of the antebrachial region both medial and lateral need to work together in order to give it the strength it needs. many people often confuse the muscle groups that are used while employing various hand weapons and motions of the arm. by making yourself aware of the muscles involved from a kinetics standpoint, you increase your ability to train those muscles by concentrating on correct form which includes muscle action and effective range of motion.
i wouldnt worry too much if your radius is crossing your ulna.......its designed to work like that.

[silatman]

We train for the vertical fist on all punches except the hook and body shots where we use the horizontal. By using the horizontal hand position for the hook I am better able to slip the opponents punch and contact him in the face as my shoulder seems to be better placed for power. Maybe its the placebo effect that I'm getting on the vertical fist punches, ie, it seems better cause thats what I have been taught.

[7starmantis]

this is where knowledge of kinesiology is helpful. the upper arm (humerus) can rotate from its relaxed position both medially and laterally. with this understanding, one can apply it to a punch in order to make it as structurally sound as possible. whether the hand is fully pronated or supinated, the humerus will rotate as well to increase the range of motion in the hand. also, the muscles of the antebrachial region both medial and lateral need to work together in order to give it the strength it needs. many people often confuse the muscle groups that are used while employing various hand weapons and motions of the arm. by making yourself aware of the muscles involved from a kinetics standpoint, you increase your ability to train those muscles by concentrating on correct form which includes muscle action and effective range of motion.
i wouldnt worry too much if your radius is crossing your ulna.......its designed to work like that. I agree with you about knowing how to train correctly for the right muslce groups, but knowledge of the bones and muslcles of the arm doesn't make either punch more "medically sound" than the other if thats what you were saying. Trust me, while in the process of getting my Masters degree in Physical Therapy I've spent countless hours studying and thinking about the bones and muslces of the arm, I've found nothing to convence me that one punch is "better" than the next.

7sm

[RichK]

Interesting how everyone has looked at the process of the arm being locked or not and the striking force of the knuckles/forearm alignment. I did not see anyone (or I missed it) discuss the relationship between choice of weapon (horizontal or vertical fist) and target. The type of weapon used (fist, chop, finger strike) is dependant upon the target. I was just explaining this to my students the other night. If you hit me in the chest with a horizontal fist I will laugh at you as my sternum is protected by my pectorals, but if you turn it over to the vertical position it will fit nicely in there to cave my sternum in. And let's keep the replies down that you are 500 pds and I wont laugh at you if you hit me in the chest, just cuttin' you off at the pass :-) It was a lesson on weapon/target relations.

[BlackCatBonz]

I agree with you about knowing how to train correctly for the right muslce groups, but knowledge of the bones and muslcles of the arm doesn't make either punch more "medically sound" than the other if thats what you were saying. Trust me, while in the process of getting my Masters degree in Physical Therapy I've spent countless hours studying and thinking about the bones and muslces of the arm, I've found nothing to convence me that one punch is "better" than the next.

7sm
thats my whole point, 7sm. thats why in the martial arts we have several hand weapons available, no one tool is perfect for every job. the design of the human body is such, that it works harmoniously throughout its effective range of motion. the purpose of martial arts in my eyes, is to distort your opponents effective range and thusly defeating him.
i didnt understand the whole "medically sound" comment myself.

[7starmantis]

Gotcha

[BlackCatBonz]

Interesting how everyone has looked at the process of the arm being locked or not and the striking force of the knuckles/forearm alignment. I did not see anyone (or I missed it) discuss the relationship between choice of weapon (horizontal or vertical fist) and target. The type of weapon used (fist, chop, finger strike) is dependant upon the target. I was just explaining this to my students the other night. If you hit me in the chest with a horizontal fist I will laugh at you as my sternum is protected by my pectorals, but if you turn it over to the vertical position it will fit nicely in there to cave my sternum in. And let's keep the replies down that you are 500 pds and I wont laugh at you if you hit me in the chest, just cuttin' you off at the pass :-) It was a lesson on weapon/target relations.
unless you have giant pectoral muscles, the index and middle finger knuckles of a horizontal fist fit right in there.

[RichK]

BlackCat, by using the index and middle knuckle of your fist on me would put your wrist at an awkward enough position that you would hurt more from it than me. "I will pump you up"...lol

[BlackCatBonz]

BlackCat, by using the index and middle knuckle of your fist on me would put your wrist at an awkward enough position that you would hurt more from it than me. "I will pump you up"...lol
the best striking area to use with a fist are the index and middle knuckles because the small bones of the hand, specifically the metacarpals are inline with the distal end of the radius......these are usually the same 2 knuckles used to smash through a stack of boards or concrete slabs.
but then again, maybe thousands of martial artists have been wrong all these years.

[MJS]

the best striking area to use with a fist are the index and middle knuckles because the small bones of the hand, specifically the metacarpals are inline with the distal end of the radius......these are usually the same 2 knuckles used to smash through a stack of boards or concrete slabs.
but then again, maybe thousands of martial artists have been wrong all these years.

Interesting that you say that. If you raise you hand, make a fist and put it against a wall, you'll notice that its the knuckles that you mention are the ones that contact the wall, but yet people tell you to punch with the first two.

Mike

[BlackCatBonz]

Interesting that you say that. If you raise you hand, make a fist and put it against a wall, you'll notice that its the knuckles that you mention are the ones that contact the wall, but yet people tell you to punch with the first two.

Mike
your index finger is your first finger, and your middle is....oh i give up

[MJS]

your index finger is your first finger, and your middle is....oh i give up

LOL!! See what happens when you post early in the morning!! Sorry about that. I misread what you posted. Yes, punching with the first 2 is what you see everyone doing.

[BlackCatBonz]

LOL!! See what happens when you post early in the morning!! Sorry about that. I misread what you posted. Yes, punching with the first 2 is what you see everyone doing.
lol.......groggy head does that to a person

[VSanhodo]

I read the article and agree it is an interesting article.

That being said I would also have to say that 98.9% of all martial artist punch incorrectly. Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages in method of punching. Many years ago, Punching was taught like you point which is the same method I use to this day. Keeping the elbow down helps protect the body from punches. SO I will stick to that style of punching. There are other advantages to what is being called vertical puncing. There simply is not enough room or enough time now to explain how martial artist have been taught and teach punching incorrectly. Once again a sad example of how the martial arts have been watered down through misunderstanding.
Teach someone that the sky is purple and what do you think they will teach? And to correct ppl after they have been taught and or learned incorrectly challanges their belief system and of course very few want to change what thier Grand Master Poooo Pa has taught them, even if it can be shown to be wrong.
SIMPLY AMAZING

Thanks

San

[IWishToLearn]

I believe that every person has to figure out which punch works better for their specific anatomy. Personally, techniques that allow me greater penetration are my preference. I have switched away from doing kicks with the instep or top of my foot and I use heel kicks or front thrust/ball kicks unless I'm way out of position or if I kick to a soft area (groin/neck if he's bent over). For punching techniques because of the way my hands are made, if I use a full rotation horizontal punch I will actually make contact with the flat part of my fingers rather than the knuckles. If I use a vertical or 1/2 turn punch I penetrate with the knuckles. I try to always go for more penetration.

[first123class]

I just wish that someone would have a sure answer, so that I would not have to think about it.

I have a number of instructors. They teach on different days. One day, one man demands that we punch vertically, the other day another instructors wants us to punch horizontally. I don't particullary think it's good for our training.

However, I thought the point of punching vertically is to use the whole fist.

But if you wear gloves than you don't need to punch with two top knuckles. And I thought the point of horizontal punching was to hit with two top knockles. So in my oppinion if you wear gloves you might as well hit with a vertical punch. I mean Karate gloves of coarse, not boxing gloves.

[MJS]

I just wish that someone would have a sure answer, so that I would not have to think about it.

I have a number of instructors. They teach on different days. One day, one man demands that we punch vertically, the other day another instructors wants us to punch horizontally. I don't particullary think it's good for our training.

However, I thought the point of punching vertically is to use the whole fist.

But if you wear gloves than you don't need to punch with two top knuckles. And I thought the point of horizontal punching was to hit with two top knockles. So in my oppinion if you wear gloves you might as well hit with a vertical punch. I mean Karate gloves of coarse, not boxing gloves.

Keep in mind that this article is based on one persons thoughts. Everybody is different so we all need to ultimately find what works best for us in the given situation. As for training both punches, why not? I still throw both during training sessions. There have been articles on here with people saying that throwing a Thai style kick is going to cause hip problems down the road. That is one persons opinion. I know people who have been training that style kick for many years and they have not had any problems.

Mike

[Simon Curran]

I would have to go with those who say they work with both, I would hate to think that I might find myself in a position where I would need a vertical punch, having only ever trained a horizontal punch, and vice-versa.

[MJS]

To first123class:

Here are a few of the threads that I was referring to

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23344

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22613

There might have been a few more, but I can't find them.

To Simon:

I agree! During the span of our training, we are going to be taught many different kicks and punches. Will we ever need all of them? Probably not, but like you said, I'd rather know them, have them in my bag of tricks in the event I need to use it, than to not train it.

Mike

[Grenadier]

Interesting discussion.

At my school, we use three angles. Horizontal for "long range" punches, vertical (tate) for "medium range" punches, and inverted (ura) for "short range" punches, yet the motion for punching is still the same, regardless of which punch is used.

[Martialscientist]

Interesting approach Grenadier.

But what if you expected an impact at certain range, and the opponent moved. Would your wrist be safe?

[Grenadier]

Interesting approach Grenadier.

But what if you expected an impact at certain range, and the opponent moved. Would your wrist be safe?
Yes. The wrist stays straight at all times.

Also, there's enough of a margin of error in the ranges, that what is "acceptable" at a given range can certainly overlap.

[Martialscientist]

I see,
thanks.