Punches in the Breasts

[drunken mistress]

There´s a new guy in my class who keeps punching me in the ****. Unfortunately he is stronger, younger and faster than me. All the other guys (I am the only woman in a Kyokushinkai karate class) have good control and don´t aim to hurt. When punching they always aim for below or above my ****. I am wondering if I should a) buy a breastplate and b) give the newcomer a really hard kick in the balls... Anyone else had the same experience?

[Martial Tucker]

I'm a guy, but I would warn him not to do it again, and quietly mention the problem to your teacher. You are relatively new, so you should not feel like you need to defend yourself, and should definitely not have to be intimidated by a more powerful student. If it happens again after your warning, I would retaliate with a swift kick, as you suggested. If something like that happened in our dojang, and our teacher knew about it, the offender would be privately warned, and a general statement would be made to the class about such behavior without naming names. If it continued, the offender would be "invited" (not optional) to a full contact sparring session in front of the class with the teacher. Or, if the offender had a history of being a jerk, he would just be directed to the sidewalk outside in an unpleasant manner.

[Rich Parsons]

*** Post Removed

Please keep the posts on topic, and polite.

Thank you

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator

[arnisador]

I've seen this before. Some guys think they're doing the right thing by "not noticing" differences and treating everyone the same. Of course, this means treating everyone like men...which doesn't actually make sense. Of course, some of them are just being jerks, or immature.

I agree that you should first quietly ask him to not punch you there. If necessary, explain that it's the same basic idea as the rule about kicking males in the testicles. Remind him once if he "forgets" about it. Then, I'd say bow out of working with him and later ask your instructor for guidance. I expect he/she will either speak to the offender or reiterate the rules for the whole class. If the instructor says to deal with it, you have a choice of getting a breastplate, retaliating in kind to his testicles, or switching schools. Personally, when I've had to work with people who go too hard and won't show control, I've usually given them a taste of their own medicine, but sometimes I've bowed out if I really thought they were dangerous.

Do you think the other student is just not thinking, or being a jerk to hurt you, or looking for a cheap thrill, or what have you?

[kenpochad]

i would say something to the teacher.
and then pop him in the cup good and hard


:erg:

[mj-hi-yah]

I agree with Arnisador and Martial Tucker on the quietly mentioning it to him. Guys should not aim for that area on a woman. For sparring situations you really might want to consider wearing a chest protector anyway though. Even well intentioned guys can accidentally hit you there.

[Lisa]

Newcomers are inexperienced and sometimes just don't know what they are doing, other times they are exactly as Arni explained and trying to treat everyone the same or being jerks.

Have a talk with him, if that doesn't work, talk with the instructor. Most people are surprised and don't even realise what they are doing. As for the jerks, let the instructor deal with them, that is their job.

[drunken mistress]

I think he is just a jerk because I mentioned something the first time he did it. I also saw him go really hard on a kid of 15 who is a bit overweight and struggling with this class. The kid looked really shattered after he´d beaten him up. I think anyone weaker than him gets laid into.

[kenpochad]

I think he is just a jerk because I mentioned something the first time he did it. I also saw him go really hard on a kid of 15 who is a bit overweight and struggling with this class. The kid looked really shattered after he´d beaten him up. I think anyone weaker than him gets laid into.iam am a big guy and where i train we have a new guy that keep making coments about how he likes to fight big and he said that he could tell that i was
slow so he came in on sat. for sarring and told the teacher that i want the big
guy the bigger they are the harder they fall he just was talking all kinds of Edited to conform to MT's Profanity rules
we went for about two min. and he had chainged his song maybe hit two or three times in that tamount of time he started to get mad and he was swinging
hard so i told him as hard as you hit me thats how hard you will get hit so then tried to kick me in the face about 3 times so on the last on e i leaned back
and kick him right in the cup when his leg was as high as me head it slowed his talk down alot. sometimes people need help with control by giving them the same as they give out

[TigerWoman]

I have seen and felt the teen boys punch hard and I have on a good chestgear. I can imagine how it would feel with no protection. I had a young girl punch me with no protection, told her where but her aim drifted. Left a small bruise. I was trying to get her to punch like that for her form and that part worked. But teen boys don't really think about others so much, trying to prove themselves. I would quietly remind him, and if it happened again go to the head instructor. The head instructor/owner needs to know anyway for the sake of others. TW

[Martial Tucker]

I think he is just a jerk because I mentioned something the first time he did it. I also saw him go really hard on a kid of 15 who is a bit overweight and struggling with this class. The kid looked really shattered after he´d beaten him up. I think anyone weaker than him gets laid into. That's totally inexcusable, and he needs a quick and thorough "attitude adjustment". I can't imagine that your teacher hasn't noticed this type of behavior, but I guess it's possible. If you are uncomfortable approaching your teacher by yourself to report this person's behavior, is there a black belt or senior student that you feel comfortable talking to that could say something to your teacher about the situation, or if necessary, even confront/correct the offender himself? I know in our school, our teacher misses little or nothing that happens in the room. Still, the black belts have our teacher's total blessing to enforce discipline and decorum on his behalf in the dojang if he does happen to miss something.
Also, if you are sure your teacher is aware of the situation, but still ignores it, that is a "yellow flag" to me that might indicate the teacher values his income more than his student's "quality of experience"...just a thought....

[rmclain]

While this is very obvious to women, some males don't realize how tender the female breast are and that they should be avoided. While the chest on a male or female should not be a target anyway, he may have a control (targeting) and/or attitude problem - attitude by the description of what he did to the 15 yr old.

You should discuss this with your instructor. If the instructor has the attitude of "deal with it," then you know that he doesn't care about your safety. You should move on to another school. The instructor should take charge and remedy this situation.

Trying to make your point by retaliating with a kick to the groin area may or may not get your point across. It could backfire, then you have a larger situation to handle. Dealing with jerks is like walking down the sidewalk and coming across a large pile of dog poo. You could easily kick the poo out of the way, but you end up getting some on you and stinking as well. Better to simply walk around and avoid the situation.

Sorry you have to deal with this situation. Hope things work out.

Robert McLain
www.arlingtonkarate.com (http://www.arlingtonkarate.com)

[DavidCC]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but the floating tool-tips from the thread list do not enforce the lagnuage filters!!!

[Thesemindz]

There's no excuse for deliberately setting out to harm another student. To challenge, defeat, overcome, press, push, or engage another student, sure under certain specific conditions in the right context. Any of my students who intentionally tried to hurt another student would have a meeting with me in the office. Either right then, or immediately after class. They would only get one warning. Anyone seen intentionally trying to harm another student after I had discussed with them, in no uncertain terms, my opinion of that type of behavior and how it needed to be adjusted would be removed from class. Period. I have alot of students to care for, each with their own unique challenges and question and I will not spare discipline for a second on someone who tries to hurt his fellow students.

Now, I have had problems with bigger stronger students accidently hurting smaller weaker students. We have ongoing discussions about how to correct the behavior, I give the student specifically tailored training regimens, which they are required to abide by, and when neccessary I have removed people from specific activities, drills, and even classes even for accidently hurting other students, if I feel that letting them participate poses too great a risk to others.

I try to pair students by size and gender for some, but not all drills. And not all the time either. It is good to train against a variety of sizes and shapes. As for men hitting women in the chest, I have found that with beginners this is usually more about ignorance than anything else. When I have a beginner male student hitting a shield that's being held by a female I sometimes see him hitting to hard, or hitting high on the shield where she is more sensitive. I make a point of quietly mentioning to the male that he needs to adjust his actions in a specific manner, and I quietly speak to the woman to check her physical, mental, and emotional state. Being "beaten up" by a bigger, stronger opponent, even when we're just doing shield work, can be very intimidating, even more so to women in my experience, and I want to make sure both students are encouraged, ready to continue their training, and able to participate in a safe fashion. I have always found that men overhitting women is a result of ignorance of the differences between men and women physically, and a simple lack of foresight on the man's part. Not malevolance, merely self-centered thoughlessness.

I have not used physical violence specifically as a punishment against my students, and I don't believe in doing so. I will sometimes use it to correct errors in techniques, make a point about stances or positions, challenge my students to improve or try harder, reinforce a sense of discipline, or to attempt to realign their perception in some way, but not to punish. If a student needs to understand self-discipline, sometimes being wildly outmatched and overcome by their instructor can help, but if he needs to be punished, or worse, if I feel a need to use physical violence to punish him for something, then it is far better for me to engage him in a positive dialogue, and if neccessary, ask him to leave. I go to class to share Kenpo and train others in its execution, not to engage in street fighting with cocky, out of control amateurs.


-Rob

[Jonathan Randall]

I think he is just a jerk because I mentioned something the first time he did it. I also saw him go really hard on a kid of 15 who is a bit overweight and struggling with this class. The kid looked really shattered after he´d beaten him up. I think anyone weaker than him gets laid into.You definitely have to go to the instructor with this - for your safety AND the safety of others. Bullies do an incredible amount of harm if left unchecked. To purposely wail on an overweight, struggling student of 15 is an absolute red flag, and his refusal to stop hitting you hard in the upper chest is another. Breast damage is nothing to laugh about - there is potential for SERIOUS INJURY here. You've done your part in a courteous manner in asking him to cease; now your instructor needs to be made aware of this, if not for you safety, than for others. I believe you have a responsibility to inform him/her of this behavior. In my college MA classes we (guys) were told in no uncertain terms what not to do and I am very sorry that you have to deal with this trashy behavior.

[Feisty Mouse]

You definitely have to go to the instructor with this - for your safety AND the safety of others. Bullies do an incredible amount of harm if left unchecked. To purposely wail on an overweight, struggling student of 15 is an absolute red flag, and his refusal to stop hitting you hard in the upper chest is another. Breast damage is nothing to laugh about - there is potential for SERIOUS INJURY here. You've done your part in a courteous manner in asking him to cease; now your instructor needs to be made aware of this, if not for you safety, than for others. I believe you have a responsibility to inform him/her of this behavior. In my college MA classes we (guys) were told in no uncertain terms what not to do and I am very sorry that you have to deal with this trashy behavior.Right on - this guy sounds like a bully, and a jerk.

Some women can "roll with" a punch to the breast. Most that I know find it *very* painful to be struck there, especially a direct hit (vs. glancing blow).

If that were a situation I was in, I would probably yell bloody murder the first time he did it, and if it kept happening, I'd probably lose my cool and tell him off, and/or let an instructor know, and/or grab one of his nipples and twist like I was dialing a radio tuner.

I'm not listing any of these things as suggestions - rather how angry deliberate things like this get me. Someone who does it by accident? Sure, it happens. It hurts, but that's OK. But you (and others) are not there for this (blank)'s amusement.

[kenpo tiger]

Right on - this guy sounds like a bully, and a jerk.

<snip>If that were a situation I was in, I would probably yell bloody murder the first time he did it, and if it kept happening, I'd probably lose my cool and tell him off, and/or let an instructor know, and/or grab one of his nipples and twist like I was dialing a radio tuner.

<snip>you (and others) are not there for this (blank)'s amusement.
Feisty, you rock my world.:ultracool

All kidding aside, it seems the offending behavior is very much intentional and, as has been said upthread, your instructor needs to be informed of the situation immediately. Yes, there are those 'big guys' who can roll over any and all comers, but most big men (and women) are keenly aware of their size and strength and are *usually* able to control their strikes and punches.

As to this maroon who decided to challenge 'the big guy' -- with that type, the mouth is usually in gear before the brain is engaged. However, those aren't the dangerous ones, are they?

[andy]

Drunken mistress--I'm a dude;

about 8 years ago I accidentally made contact in a similar manner to what you originally described

It happened once and once only. I Immediatly stopped and thru my beat redface politely and quietly apologised (as any real man would) she knew it was an accident and knew I was sincere.whereupon we both laughed and went about our training and we grew in ma together without any problem.It never happened again. It sounds to me like he is intentionally being a 'cad'

You should inform your instructor in a private calm manner. furthermore; the unspoken rule in my style was if someone is being to aggressive warn them once.And make your instructor aware asap If they refuse to listen then use the same force.

[Swordlady]

You know what's worse than getting punched in the breasts? Getting jabbed by a bokken in the breasts. I was sparring with bokken yesterday (no armor), and got poked several times on the chest. My sempai insisted that it hurts more for a man to get kicked in the groin than for a woman to get poked on the chest. I don't know about that - anyone want to test that theory out?

Oh yeah...the reason why we don't spar with armor? "Pain helps you to toughen up."

[Loki]

I agree with everyone else. This guy is a jerk. Giving him some of his own medicine (i.e. snap to the nuts) would probably only make him angrier. Refuse to spar with him and make sure your instructor knows.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

ta
There´s a new guy in my class who keeps punching me in the ****. Unfortunately he is stronger, younger and faster than me. All the other guys (I am the only woman in a Kyokushinkai karate class) have good control and don´t aim to hurt. When punching they always aim for below or above my ****. I am wondering if I should a) buy a breastplate and b) give the newcomer a really hard kick in the balls... Anyone else had the same experience?
(a) buy a breast protector

Yes very recommended! Get one as soon as possible. This is your natural rights as a woman to protect your reproductive organs.

(b) kick in the balls

Not recommended, due to litigation problems. Better to report this inexcusable behavior to the Sensei and have the offender banned from the Dojo.

[kenpochad]

get a sheild I would not go to a sparring class with out my cup on .
But where i train the breast it ok traget so is the cup if you dont have a cup on or sheild you should not be in that class both are legal shots

[Schtankybampo]

Riiiiiight. Um, Fellas? You're in the WOMEN'S Forum. In your class it may be perfectly acceptable for me to run up and kick you as hard in the franks-and-beans as I like. That doesn't make it any less rude. We shouldn't be forced to wear armor to protect ourselves. Good manners and respectful training practices should do it for us.

No-one in my class wears a cup. We refer to them as "shrapnel"


M

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Riiiiiight. Um, Fellas? You're in the WOMEN'S Forum. In your class it may be perfectly acceptable for me to run up and kick you as hard in the franks-and-beans as I like. That doesn't make it any less rude. We shouldn't be forced to wear armor to protect ourselves. Good manners and respectful training practices should do it for us.

No-one in my class wears a cup. We refer to them as "shrapnel"


M
Accidental or moderate contact to a woman's chest is a given if she's in serious martial arts training for self defense purposes. However direct intentional aggressive contact should be a no-no. But that carries a double edged sword. If your training partner is not hitting you in the chest (in sparring) in some way or not at the least indicating in some other way that they could have they aren't doing you any favors for real life. They are giving you a false sense of security by allowing you to think you are protecting an area that you might not be. Then you get in an altercation, your aggressor sees that your chest is unprotected and proceeds to hurt you. So while I wouldn't say "you HAVE to wear a chest protector so get over it!" or anything along those lines I would highly recommend it as an instructor and allow for light to moderate contact so that you get some definite feedback on where you are open. It just may save your life. No-one in your class wears a cup? Wooo braver men than myself. In my training the groin is a viable target because in an altercation the aggressor isn't going to be nice and avoid hitting me there. I don't advocate full power shots to my groin but I expect to get "tapped" if I'm open so that I know that I'm open. I'd rather learn in training from a friend/training partner than "in the street" from someone who cares nothing about me and who is going to give me more than a tap. Also I wear my cup for all the accidental groin shots that occur in either striking or grappling. Protect myself first, expect others to protect me second. I believe in taking responsibilty for my own safety and not entrusting that to others. It's my body after all. But as a "fella" Maybe I shouldn't respond to the WOMAN's forum. I'm sure my help, advice, or insight are somewhat less useful since I'm a "fella" regardless of how much experience I may have with training methodologies, martial arts education, physiology and anatomy, personal injuries, etc. Or maybe I just care enough to try to help? You decide but, I know I chimed in to help if possible as I saw the subject line and thought this was a VERY serious issue worth my time commenting on. Salute :asian:

Respectfully,
James

[tsdclaflin]

I've seen this before. Some guys think they're doing the right thing by "not noticing" differences and treating everyone the same.
I don't buy this. (I'm a guy by the way) Over the years, I have sparred a lot of men and women. The chest is not a target for me on either men or women, and I don't recall ever targeting that area. (That is not to say that I have never hit someone there unintentionally.) As a Tang Soo Do stylist, we do point sparring. I aim for the head, face, lower ribs, solar plexis, stomach. Even in a self defense situation, I would not target the upper chest.

He's not treating you like a guy; he is probably very much aware of your feminity.

Let the instructor know now. And, next time he hits you there, drop him with a shot to the groin.

Good luck,

[Ceicei]

Being hit in the breasts do not bother me (and usually doesn't hurt)--I pay no attention as it is basically a given that being hit in the chest is a possibility (I'm female and relatively short, most of my partners are male and tall). There are many techniques in kenpo that have the chest and the groin as target areas. We all have a good working relationship when we train together. We know the difference between strikes that are training, accidental, or blatant to chest/groin.

That said, I worry more about being hit in the sternum though, especially during hard sparring. I am frequently paired with a sparring partner who loves to do power kicks. I do have an under-shirt chest protector I wear primarily to protect my sternum when I spar. It does a good job of protecting the breasts as well, if that is an issue for some females.

I bought mine from a website in the US (there are several websites that sell those). If you want to know what it looks like, you can click on the link below.

http://www.qp-sport.co.nz/en/maxiguard.mv

- Ceicei

[mj-hi-yah]

Maybe I shouldn't respond to the WOMAN's forum. I'm sure my help, advice, or insight are somewhat less useful since I'm a "fella" regardless of how much experience I may have with training methodologies, martial arts education, physiology and anatomy, personal injuries, etc. Or maybe I just care enough to try to help? You decide but, I know I chimed in to help if possible as I saw the subject line and thought this was a VERY serious issue worth my time commenting on. Salute :asian:

James,

Testosteronoids :) are always welcome to participate in The Women's Forum so long as you/they are not in a thread in which the topic is addressed to or requesting information from women only.

By the way I agree with and find value in your post, so thanks for taking the time to participate.

MJ :asian:

[Kenpojujitsu3]

James,

Testosteronoids http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif are always welcome to participate in The Women's Forum so long as you/they are not in a thread in which the topic is addressed to or requesting information from women only.

By the way I agree with and find value in your post, so thanks for taking the time to participate.

MJ http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gifTestosteronoids??? I have to write that one down! http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl.gif http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/roflmao.gif Thank you for reading and I'm glad you found my post of some use. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Gin-Gin]

Riiiiiight. Um, Fellas? You're in the WOMEN'S Forum. In your class it may be perfectly acceptable for me to run up and kick you as hard in the franks-and-beans as I like. That doesn't make it any less rude. We shouldn't be forced to wear armor to protect ourselves. Good manners and respectful training practices should do it for us. No-one in my class wears a cup. We refer to them as "shrapnel" MSince this area is not restricted, everyone's opinion is welcome.

[Schtankybampo]

I do beg your pardon, I wasn't intending to say that their opinion wasn't welcome, and I'm sorry if it sounded as though I was!
What struck me as funny was the statement:

"...if you dont have a cup on or sheild you should not be in that class both are legal shots."

Of course they are legal shots. And yes, I tap groin and chest shots in class. Yes, I've learned what it is like to suck that hit up when I have to. Generally speaking, they are testosterone-laden men who learn that it's a lot scarier when I tap their groin than when they tap my breasts.

I guess where I was coming from was a knee-jerk reaction to what I have heard before (not here, but that statement was shades of it...)

"Women shouldn't study martial arts because they are weaker and can't take the pain."

No-one here said that, but it's what I thought I was hearing. I don't want men to stop posting in here! What sort of world would THAT be? I apologize to all the guys. :) You're welcome here, naturally.


~m~

[matt.m]

There are as many women in my pops hapkido class as men. About 15 yrs. ago some newer student was paired off with a much smaller, albeit upper ranking belt, woman than he was.

This guy was Mr. Go time all out if you don't wanna get hit then block kind of idiot. Well he blasted the lady in the chest, she fell. Everyone saw it. Pop said "You will use control,"

Dude said he understood, but a few minutes later he must've forgot. So long story short, dad walked over to the guy and says "Ok, hit me as hard as you want. It seems you want to have hard contact so cool."

Dad put on the hands, feet, shin and instep. He told the guy to wear hogu only. He didn't have to wear the pads. In any event dad took four really good hits from the dude. After doing so pop clocked him with a reverse punch to the midsection that knocked him out for about 5 minutes.

I don't believe in bullies, this guy is an insecure bully. There should be none of that kind of nonsense, period. I dealt with people like that when I taught Judo to Jr. High and High School kids, basic classes while in the Marine Corps.

[Ange]

I'm new to this forum, but can't help putting in a post. I'm a "Mature" 5th Gup Soo Bahk Do student, I'm also a women and happen to be a Maternal Health Nurse in Australia.
With my line of occupation, I would consider that the breasts should never ever be a target. The result of soft tissue damage, whether repeated or singularly to this area, can be potentially life threatening, and proceed to one of the greatest killers of women today.
Definately tell your instructor, and if you have no joy there go higher up in your association.
Good Luck
Angela

[RachelK]

Welcome to the forum, Ange, and thanks for your uniquely qualified perspective on this particular issue. I think men and women should treat the breasts and the testicles with the same consideration. I was discussing this on another martial arts forum and one of the guys replied "I treat 'em like punching bags." I was appalled. Breasts and testicles are both organs, and trying to damage your training partner's internal organs is very shabby behaviour indeed. However, I do think these are acceptable targets only if the students have enough precision and control to hit lightly to exploit the flinch response. In that case, the person will move not so much from the actual pain of contact as from the intent...for example, guys are very conscious of the vulnerability of the groin and will move to protect it even before there is contact. So it is possible IMHO to target these areas and get the desired response (e.g. doubling over) without even making contact, or at least with very light contact. Unfortunately, the number of students who think they have this kind of precision and control far exceeds those who actually do. I can well understand why instructors do not allow these kinds of hits. They aren't specifically banned in my school, it's more of a matter of common courtesy and "do unto others..."
All the best,
Rachel

[saleem]

Hi Rachel,

Its good to see your opinion on this and this has been an excellent thread. You said it right that a woman's chest is actually a functioning organ that should be guarded as best as possible. Remembering what the nurse said above about the health hazards. There is also the possibility of internal damage reducing a woman's ability to breast-feed.

A woman should still train as effectively as ever, no doubt, but extra care should be taken to train in protecting this area just as one would for the head or groin. For me, as a guy, its off limits. I'm married and I would not even like to cause my wife that kind of pain, even accidentally.

Saleem,
Richardson, Texas

[karateka]

b) give the newcomer a really hard kick in the balls...


This is a very dishonourable action and can lead to infertility and impotence, and he is a newcomer so he probably doesnt know the rules or regulations. tell him, and if he keeps attacking you there, report it to your sensei.

[Kacey]

I agree with what seems to be the majority opinion - breasts and groin should be light or no-contact areas, depending on the rules of your art. Strikes that are harder than intended, or hit a different target than intended, are a fact of sparring practice - but strikes that deliberately aim excessive contact (at any target) that are intended to intimidate (which is what this sounds like) demonstrate that the person does not understand the precepts of the art and is, indeed, a bully.

Here's what I did in a similar situation that occurred when I was a yellow belt: I spoke to the student (a female blue belt), who told me to suck it up (along with 6 or 7 other students junior in rank and smaller in size). I spoke to a senior, who referred me to another senior. That senior discussed the issue with her... when that didn't work, he sparred her the way she sparred us. End of issue.