Here is a link to the video clip (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page43.html) page on my site which has footage of me demonstrating working against knife, stick, kicks, on the floor, taking punches and other areas of Systema.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

Those vids are pretty slick...

Regards,
Walt

Neat! I liked how smooth and effortless you make the techniques look. Good moving out of the way/using joint locks/pins/ & using the other guys momentum (sp?) against him.

Robyn :-popcorn:

Glad you enjoyed them.


I am putting an article together on striking. It will have some clips attached to it. I will post a link here when I get it sorted.

Paul Genge

I also forgot there is article here (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page38.html)that covers taking strikes to the body. It contains a clip on page two.

Paul Genge

I like the gun video, not sure the knife would work.

Are you supposed to be that relaxed?

Yes you are ment to be relaxed. Tense muscles cut easier for a start.

I had a private student from a kenpo background have the same reservations until I taught him using a slightly blunted filleting knife. This guy is a butcher by trade and appreciates what a knife can do. He went away convinced.

Tension stops you moving freely. When faced with a knife free movement is an essential.

Paul Genge

Very smooth and relaxed, look great.

looked at the knife video, good stuff very effective. very similar to aikido and ju jitsu. very relaxed. going to check out the rest.

Very good stuff. relaxed, effective and simple. The only move that looked forced was the rear choke in the chair but that was done in the 'final stage' of the choke so it shouldn't have been able to be done as relaxed as the others. Very interesting.

Great Clips Paul... very impressive demo.

Very good stuff. relaxed, effective and simple. The only move that looked forced was the rear choke in the chair but that was done in the 'final stage' of the choke so it shouldn't have been able to be done as relaxed as the others. Very interesting.
In systema we encourage our body to react to the first sign of fear that is caused by our attackers movement or actions. We should therefore move and escape the lock or throw preventing it from taking hold.

If caught out, as in this case, it takes greater effort to escape and the work is less clean. It is only by doing this unclean work and then evaluating it that we can polish our body movement.

Thankyou for your positive comments. It is appreciated.

Paul Genge

Great clips
I always enjoy watching people who study Systema demonstrate techniques

SHEESH!!! So relaxed! Almost looked like you were bored... :)

Those were some great clips. Makes me want to take a good, hard look at systema...

Every situation ended with the aggressor on the ground. Lots of circular motion. I think that I even saw some motion that guided the opponent downward in a spiraling/swirling manner. Love the subtle leg work.

Great stuff!

Hi Paul,
Great to see you are posting some Systema VidClips on Martialtalk.
Paul Genge is a quality Systema Instructor with a solid Martial Arts backround, having trained with Paul I can assure you that his training methods are effective also what you see on these clips is just the tip of the iceberg!!
Systema works well with Kenpo (it does for me anyway).
I always tell my students "that one real lesson in Kenpo, should be a lesson of self improvment" , well "I" would say the same about Systema ("real" being the important bit).
Good Luck Paul
Richard

Really nice videos thanks for putting them up for us to watch.

New clip shot at the residential training camp taught by Rob Poynton and myself.

http://www.systemauk.com/video/SCAMP05.WMV

Enjoy,

Paul Genge

I can't help but notice how similar some of the movements are to stuff contained in Gyokko ryu (Ninpo Taijutsu). For example in one of the kick defenses you allowed him to kick, moved slightly to the side and forward and allowed him to fall onto your leg, resulting him falling backwards.. This is almost a mirror image of 'Koku' found in Gyokko ryu..

Very interesting :)

You are right there is a lot of similarities between the movement of the Bujinkan and systema. That is why Bujinkan students tend to pick up systema quickley.

Some people simply like to learn systema's drills and add it to their standard Bujinkan training to compliment what they are already doing. This works well because there is no fixed attacks in the drills and the student quickley learns to move instinctually, which is different when practicing kihon and henka.

Paul Genge

I dunno Paul, it looked far too relaxed for a violent situation. You were practically mocking those guys. Could you explain the first two defenses against a knife? I'd like to know how that movement around the head makes the other guy fall, or maybe there were other movements I missed.

A further question: Could the tall wiry teen have pulled off those techniques against a heavy-set guy like you?

I dunno Paul, it looked far too relaxed for a violent situation. You were practically mocking those guys. Could you explain the first two defenses against a knife? I'd like to know how that movement around the head makes the other guy fall, or maybe there were other movements I missed.

A further question: Could the tall wiry teen have pulled off those techniques against a heavy-set guy like you?
you know i was thinking the same thing, i saw this stuff before and i had some things to say about it, and was told that i was attacking this man on what he did, let me say this ,i was asking about the tecq he was doing, and how it looked ,paul did not get back to me, i even put my cell # out there for him to call me, but he did not. i just wanted to know about how he was doing them and people took it like i was attacking this man, i wll say this , NOBODY SWINGS A STICK LIKE THAT GUY DID IN THE VIDEOS ON THE STREET!!!! my daughter in law is Russian,and she is from over there also
she knows a little bit about this style,anyway here we go again.

it looked far too relaxed for a violent situation.

I fear that I misunderstand you. Can you develop ?

I dunno Paul, it looked far too relaxed for a violent situation. You were practically mocking those guys. Could you explain the first two defenses against a knife? I'd like to know how that movement around the head makes the other guy fall, or maybe there were other movements I missed.
Just from watching the first one a few times, it looks like a trip. The forearm's not operating on its own. Watch the feet.

I don't really get what's happening in the second defense though. At a guess, the inital thurst's redirected, the attacker's just starting to attempt to recover balance, and the weight shift's used against him, which is what causes him to crumple like that. Can't tell if the kick's supposed to just be pushing him back, or applying stopping power. Systema people, am I even close?

i would like to know, where did they get that knife stuff they were doing in the car???, i know that if someone puts a knife to your throat amd you try what that guy did, you would be dead!!! come on.:idunno:

lonekimono10 said
"anyway here we go again."
I think sir that you should have said …anyway here I go again.

Once again speaking with such knows it all authority while at the same time speaking out with such obvious closed minded ignorance. Is it any wonder your ‘questions’ or ignored or ridiculed by all except the most tolerent of the Systema people? I wish you good luck sir on your continued battle in learning how to communicate via this medium. I have spoken with some friends of mine from your community (kempo) and they tell me that ya ain’t such a bad guy, just very opinionated and hard headed, just that once you get on line you come across as another one of those 30 year “I have no ego but am always right” types that just loves the sound of their voice (or print) that feels that they must comment on anything and everything so as to reinforce their self esteem.

Nothing personal, I am sure as I was told that you are an alright type of guy, but really, you do seem to come across as an :moon: (imho)
I wonder is that the image that you are trying for when you post? Is it unconscious or conscious this persona that you are adopting on line?

Good luck in your training and in your writing
Hope to see you on the floor soon
Friends
Brian King

lonekimono10 said

I think sir that you should have said …anyway here I go again.

Once again speaking with such knows it all authority while at the same time speaking out with such obvious closed minded ignorance. Is it any wonder your ‘questions’ or ignored or ridiculed by all except the most tolerent of the Systema people? I wish you good luck sir on your continued battle in learning how to communicate via this medium. I have spoken with some friends of mine from your community (kempo) and they tell me that ya ain’t such a bad guy, just very opinionated and hard headed, just that once you get on line you come across as another one of those 30 year “I have no ego but am always right” types that just loves the sound of their voice (or print) that feels that they must comment on anything and everything so as to reinforce their self esteem.

Nothing personal, I am sure as I was told that you are an alright type of guy, but really, you do seem to come across as an :moon: (imho)
I wonder is that the image that you are trying for when you post? Is it unconscious or conscious this persona that you are adopting on line?

Good luck in your training and in your writing
Hope to see you on the floor soon
Friends
Brian King

Well Mr King it don't really bother me what you say about me, and as far as what you said about authority and closed minded ignorance???
i can't remember the last time someone called me that, oh wait yes i do, it was when i started Kenpo(not kempo) in 1965 that was the last time that was said to me, well you see Mr King i'm not a person who shoots off at the mouth over nothing, and yes i do think that after the time that i have in the Martial arts (and law inforcement) that i can say that the stuff that was done in the car will get you hurt or killed!! and as far as your system i did not say anything about that, just some of the tecq, and oh yes , what you said about "hope to see you on the floor soon"?? i don't play games.
and i see that you don't have your DOB listed??? why , oh and one more thing i called the # on your web site and a nice man (George) and i was talking, wow you are not even on the site, why???? , oh and please tell my friends i said HI.

ps i want to leve you with something that MR Parker said
"it's not who's right, it's who's left"

Mr. Elmer.
While you may take it as personal- it is not. Regardless- I will say what I feel.
You don't know Systema. That is a cold fact. All the references to your age, years (decades) in the arts and not so subtle pokes at other posters- implying their immaturity in arts as compared to your expertise- all of it and general confrontational attitude of yours is projecting huge ego problem. Demanding respect (it is earned commodity BTW), calling people to complain about "disrespect" they have shown towards you- even trying to contact Vladimir to complain about what is your perception of disrespect born of self centered pride. While at the same time I have not noticed much of respect being shown by you, sir, towards the ones you are demanding respect from.
It is a 2 way street.
Assuming that you are more "been there, done that" type than the ones you are arguing with is just that- ASSumption. In some cases you could be very wrong in that...
There is nothing wrong questioning aspects of work you have seen on the video. Making statements "it will get you killed" is wrong without understanding the context of the work, the purpose of specific training drills and without having slightest knowledge of the method or art in question.
While you may have decades in the art of your choice- you fail to grasp that much of Systema training drills are not techniques in context it is practiced in your art. These drills are not designed to teach practitioners the specific defenses against specific threats. Elimination of fear based flinch response, of intention to hit, kick, grab, etc. and gradually replacing it with just movement, emotional detachement in confrontation are just a few concepts I'm guessing you are not aware off being the essence of much Systema training drills.
Mr. Elmer- most of Systema people do not have enough knowledge to make statements about much of what we see in kenpo, kempo in public- while we may feel that many of the things are lacking in some aspects- most of us will not go into Kenpo discussions without making serious and honest effort to understand in some depth the art in question.
Or does your 40 years in kempo gives you the infinite wisdom- knowing the undisputable truth of combat realm?

I will reply in bold sir, please do not consider it yelling or that a special emphasis should be placed on the embolden words I do so for ease of writing and understanding. Pardon my ignoring the usual forum protocols this once.

Well Mr King it don't really bother me what you say about me, and as far as what you said about authority and closed minded ignorance???
i can't remember the last time someone called me that, oh wait yes i do, it was when i started Kenpo(not kempo) in 1965 that was the last time that was said to me
Perhaps that is correct, yet I have heard it of you, read it in your posts on this and various other threads so maybe you are not hearing? It happens. Re-kenpo/kempo oops miss keyed. No insult was intended to Kempo practitioners or kenpo practitioners. That you took the time to correct me …thanks…I hope that you did not take it as an insult?

, well you see Mr King i'm not a person who shoots off at the mouth over nothing,
Yes you are which is the point

and yes i do think that after the time that i have in the Martial arts (and law inforcement) that i can say that the stuff that was done in the car will get you hurt or killed!!
First, thank you for your service in law enforcement. (with an e not an i…one spell checker to another :asian: ) but once again spoken with such arrogance and ignorance. Do not presume to speak for me sir! What you should have said was something along the lines of

IF I tried something like that I would get killed. Instead you have closed your mind and do not see any of the other possibilities. Did you try the movements out before you judged them so harshly on the motions forum? Our did you shoot your mouth off in what appears yet another vain attempt at proving your self worth?


and as far as your system i did not say anything about that,
I never said that you did (did you read the post before replying?), but in fact you did with this statement
"i would like to know, where did they get that knife stuff they were doing in the car??? Bold above by you not me
maybe try reading and understanding before responding?

just some of the tecq,
Uh, again sir, you did not question any technique at all, you just started out with the rolling on floor laughing icon and then proceeded to state a bunch of off topic ‘facts’ as you know them, questioned their teachers and system and then proclaimed how the movements would get you killed!

I await the video of how you would deal with the situation in your police car….Really it would be interesting.

and oh yes , what you said about "hope to see you on the floor soon"?? i don't play games.
Really, never? I pity you. So besides appearing close minded, arrogant, self serving you seem to have no sense of humor, very sad.

and i see that you don't have your DOB listed??? why ,

Really your obsession with age is quite curious. It reminds me of two E1 soldiers (privates who usually just got their haircut and will be promoted to E2 as soon as they learn how to polish their boots arguing about who outranks who, it always ends with “what is your time in service, what’s yours…June 14th HA mine is June 13th) I have added my birthday to my profile, will you send me a card?

oh and one more thing i called the # on your web site and a nice man (George) and i was talking

Oops! My bad, we moved out of his school after we got our own place a couple of years ago. We trained there (Aikido Eastside) for a couple of years and I was a student of his for a number of years prior to that. Any of his students get 50% off of our tuition as one way of thanking him for giving me the space, and the time and the sharing of his experiences that allowed me to grow our program from a simple study group to what it is today. We are still very good friends. I thought my profile here had been updated. I tried to update again but for you sir here is my web page http://systemanw.com not that I can see how it matters. I am glad that you got a chance to talk to George he is a wonderful person and very knowledgeable. George has problems sleeping and has not been feeling well. I hope that you took time zones into consideration before you called him, but I would guess in your hurry to shoot off your mouth you did not, am I right. What time did you call him sir?

wow you are not even on the site, why????
See above

, oh and please tell my friends i said HI.
Uh again read the f’n post jeez. I have friends, if you do I have not meet them.

ps i want to leve you with something that MR Parker said
"it's not who's right, it's who's left"
Uh..thanks….but I am a Replubican..one of the few things George (the nice man you called on the phone) and I disagree.

Good luck in your training
Hope to see you on the floor soon
Friends
Brian King

Brian and Sonny,

Thank you for your posts. I am happy to know that my assessment of said poster was not just me.

brad you are a funny guy

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26480 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Georgia Ketchmark
-MT Senior Moderator-

Guys, like the mod said, please keep the flame wars outta the thread. My comment was made to understand the reasoning and technique behind what I saw, and while I admit to being skeptical, I respect Paul. Drop the ad hominem and use actual arguments.

Guys, like the mod said, please keep the flame wars outta the thread. My comment was made to understand the reasoning and technique behind what I saw, and while I admit to being skeptical, I respect Paul. Drop the ad hominem and use actual arguments.

May we state that on this one we agree ? ;)

as a member not a mod i post this

please keep the bold type to a decent level it hurts my eyes plus it equates to shouting

Now back to the techniques and what they showed and how the people moved to accomplish the techniques please

I saw some good movement that was fluid and damn effective in some of the clip

Marginal and Loki
You are not being ignored…it is Paul’s’ thread and his clip so I feel he should have the first privilege of answering your questions. I am sure that he is busy and will be back shortly. It will be interesting and I look forward to the dialogue.

Sorry the thread got off track a bit.

Some people, and the way that they state things tend to get my short hairs tied up.
My apologies. My tolerance of fools has been short lately, which as you can imagine often makes looking in the mirror difficult.

See you on the floor soon
Friends
Brian King

Systema and Kenpo are really on opposite ends of the scale as far as their approaches to training go...Systema doesn't even want to teach single strikes, while Kenpo teaches multi-strike responses to a long list of enumerated situations. People are bound to talk past one another!

I would like to say to Mr King thank you for the phone call, it was great talking with you and getting past with what happen,with the way i put things down, and let me say that i'm sorry if i said anything to get the people in your system upset,i'm kenpo and you are right i don't know your style, and thank you for the insite in your art, hope we can talk again, thank you.

It is amazing what can happen when you spend the week away training and not sparring on the internet.

The answer to all the questions is simple. Either you have a authorised instructor nearby and you can check this stuff out, then make an informed decission or if not find something else to worry about.

If in the NW of the UK feel free to look me up.

Thanks,

Paul Genge

The answer to all the questions is simple. Either you have a authorised instructor nearby and you can check this stuff out, then make an informed decission or if not find something else to worry about.
Doesn't that kinda defeat the point of a martial arts forum? The idea is for us to talk about martial arts and learn from experts in arts we don't have access to, among other things. If I were to express opinions only on arts I've seen personally, I'd be restricted to Krav Maga, Ninjitsu and ever so little TKD.

The obvious question is, "Are you trying to learn from other martial arts or just run your mouth of in an attempt at scoring points?"

Systema is like any other martial art. You need access to tuition to learn it. This cannot be gained through cyber space, it needs real one to one contact. The purpose of articles on forums are to spark interest in people that would seek a little real experience.

If you do not think it is for you fine, go find something that is. If there is a class near you and you really have issues with what we do please attend. I will be away for a few days. Please do not get too excited while I am away.

Paul Genge

The obvious question is, "Are you trying to learn from other martial arts or just run your mouth of in an attempt at scoring points?"

Systema is like any other martial art. You need access to tuition to learn it. This cannot be gained through cyber space, it needs real one to one contact. The purpose of articles on forums are to spark interest in people that would seek a little real experience.
I don't understand what your problem is. My original post on this thread asked you for information about techniques. It's hard to learn from you if I don't understand what you're doing. I wasn't asking for a cyber lesson, I was asking for a breakdown and explanation of a technique to understand how it works. I don't know of any Systema centers in Israel, so this is the best I've got. If that's not trying to learning, I don't know what is.

I have just completed a new article (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page23.html)on surviving knife attack. It documents some of the drills used and has some video footage of them and work against slashes, stabs and while against a wall.


Enjoy.

Paul Genge

Here's a quintessential Krav Maga response:

Wouldn't it have been much simpler to just kick him in the balls?

I think the body movement in systema looks great, i love the way it looks so fluid and relaxed. It does remind me in some ways of ninjutsu, we also do a fair bit of blindfold training now and training where there is no specific technique to do, just them attacking and you utilising your body movement and theirs. So I think it looks good and as for Paul looking too laid back, I think making it look easy and relaxed is what a good instructor should do.
But I do acknowledge that there is no pain like a good hoof right in the balls. Sometimes that is the best thing to do. OOOOf!

Got a good kick in the family Jewells practicing working against kicks from the floor and they say that our training lacks reality.....

Paul Genge

Thanks for posting these, Paul. I really enjoyed watching them - they reminded me of my Tai Chi instructor and his ability to deflect attacks. Systema intrigues me.

I've heard of Systema, now I have an idea what it looks like. Thank you for sharing the clips. I enjoyed them.

I'd like to say first that my comments below are not about Systema itself (I don't know enough about it), rather about the video clips themselves.

3 thoughts.

1. The attackers go down so easily that it lacks credibility as a demonstration. In the stick attack video, for example, much of the disarming technique can be simply boiled down to a) dodge the stick, followed by b) push the attacker down. A little too simple. I'm watching it thinking "no way a real attacker is going down like that." And in some of the others, he starts going down before he's even forced in that direction.

2. I understand why the law enforcement guy before was critical of the car-knife video. It seems unlikely that this would have a high rate of success. For starters, in the first demo of the video, the blade of the knife gets pushed into the underside of the defender's wrist. This is obviously very bad. The point being that when under controlled response from the attacker in a demonstration a cut is suffered, how reliable can this particular technique be under real circumstances? Notice that I'm only criticizing this 1 technique here.

3. The article about taking punches was pretty good, mainly the part at the bottom about breathing. This is important for any martial artist.

Systema is most likely a very good martial art. My comments should not be interpreted as an endictment of the art. Regardless of my impressions, I think these are good to show the general idea behind Sytema.

I will try to address your points in order.

1) Though many styles rely on obvious locks or throws to put a person on the floor it is not the only way to acheive this goal. Try a simple experiment. Have as big a training partner stand with a straight spine. Put all your weight on their shoulders and see if they fall (They will not).

Next take the same person and twist their shoulders slightly so that their spine is no longer straight. You will be surprised how little distortion in the alignment of the spine you need for the next part of the exercise. Again apply presure down onto your partners shoulders (They will fall). Do this with as little presure as is effective. This way you will learn how to drop people with far less effort than is needed in throwing techniques.

There are other variations of this drill Where you have a partner take exagerated stances and you learn to identify the points of tension and support that these generate. by adding to or removing them is is easy to effect posture and cause it to collapse. With a little time the stances are brought back towards a natural position, making the drill more difficult.

2) There are several clips involving knife defence in cars. Which one are you refering to. I will then have a look at it. It has to be understood working against knives in vehicles is throught with many dangers. It is possible in desperate situations to lever a knife using the forearm on the flat of the blade. It might be that which is going on in the clip you refer to, but I will not know until I see it.

3) Thanks for the comments on taking strikes. There is an interesting clip at the end of the learning to punch article (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page15.html) that has a Muay Thai and BJJ competitor learning what a strike can do and eventually how to dissipate it's effects using movement. This might be interesting to you because it shows the other side of this kind of work.

Paul Genge

I enjoyed the video, and reading the comments.

Thanks for the videos, I found them very interesting.

Pax
Cujo

Very cool! I always liked to watch the systema techniques. When I first saw them back in the 90's, with a Vasiliev video set, It blew my mind. It was so unique.

I watched these a little while ago. Very nice.

The only techniques that scared me a bit were the gun techniques with your head so close to it and not really getting out of the way of the barrel. The one where you did not have control of the gun you may want to work that one a little different. I like the relaxed movement I to agree being relaxed in self defense helps you move quickly and smoothly like you need to.

The only techniques that scared me a bit were the gun techniques with your head so close to it and not really getting out of the way of the barrel. The one where you did not have control of the gun you may want to work that one a little different. I like the relaxed movement I to agree being relaxed in self defense helps you move quickly and smoothly like you need to.

Interesting videos Paul, thanks for putting them up. Inevitably it opens a whole can or worms right or wrong.

Anyway, I like them and have always been interested in Systema and it's principals.

Can I just ask - I believe it's more of a combatitive rather than an actual art with gradings, kata etc? I may be wrong though.

Also, I thought that there were a lot of stuff with the knife and gun attacks - why do you tilt your head into the gun? Maybe you dont but looked like it to me.

My instructor did a seminar on Systema a few years back and showed us some really interesting stuff from it.

I agree with what one of the guys earlier said about more aggressive attacks - just so that it provides us with a sense of realism (to the untrained eye lol)

For example, a full headlock from the rear, stabbing motion with a knife maybe, etc etc.

Thanks
Ross

On the pistol clips it is essential that the body part the barrel is pressed on gets out of the line of the shot. If not things can get messy very quickley.

If you simply pull your head away from the weapon it can track your movement. When you move the head into the pistol the part of the head in the way of the muzzel gets out of the way and only a very small movement is needed to achieve this. The down side is that the head is next to the slide and you could get burnt by the muzzle flash or cut by the slide action. This is in no way perfect, but what is when faced with such a dangerous situation.

The problem unless there is visible resistance to the moves it will never appear full on enough to silence the critics, because of the way we work we do not oppose the tension given us by our partners and it works easier. This does not make any better a clip.

I will be trying to re-shoot clips for the video page in the near future and will take you observations into account when I do it.

Thanks,

Paul Genge

Two new clips.

Systema real self defence in real environments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejn6Q5gVUes)

Systema the questions answered. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_-5MY7qFWA)(Excert from a DVD I have been working on where an MMA fighter and street fighting authority tests out systema to find out what it is all about.)

Paul Genge

Just an update to let you know my video page (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page43.html) has been updated.

The clip of Systema the Questions answered is different from the one already posted on this thread. In it Richard Grannon talks about his experience of making the film and his impressions of Systema both before and after the experience.

Paul Genge

Although watching the clips are nice. I thought the knife defenses were kinda impractical. At least the ones in the open air. The ones demonstrated against the buildings. Were better in my opinion because they demonstrated getting control of the weapon. Which I think would be of vital importance in a situation like that. Am I off base in this? Please understand that I mean no disrespect to this system, or the instructors in the clips. This is just my simple observation.

1stJohn1:9