Our McDojo Sister

[TKDKid]

I have a bit of a problem, and I wonder if I could get some advice from those of you who are wiser than I.

We recently gained a new student at our Dojang. She came from one of the two other Tae Kwon Do schools in our town. As it is, she came from the one with the reputation of being a McDojo. At my school it takes five years to earn a black belt, we know at the one she came from it takes somewhere around a year.

When she came to our school she told our instructor that "I don't spar with other women because I'm too powerful." She also told my instructor that she got kicked out of her old school for getting all up in the instructor's face. She's the same rank as I am, which is pretty advanced, I've been practicing for about four years. The woman has no technique whatsoever. She doesn't even demonstrate a basic knowledge of power exchange.

I've sparred with her once. When we spar, we spar light contact. We don't use power so as to protect the other practioner, but we still make our strikes touch so they know where they're open. When I fought her she was all charge with wild swings, showing no respect to the strikes I got in on her. Which were many. After class my instructor told me that she had warned our new student that however hard she fought was how hard she was going to get it back, and she told me I should do what I needed to in order to make her respect me.

In essence my instructor told me that if hurting her is what it takes to make her respect the strikes she's taking, then that's what I need to do. My instructor is a wise woman, and she's been teaching TKD on the order of twenty years, so I'm sure she's seen this sort of thing before, and I'm sure that if that weren't the best way to handle it, she wouldn't have told me to do what I needed to do. I just don't feel quite right about hurting this woman, I know my instructor doesn't really want this woman to get hurt, it's just that sometimes life requires hard lessons, but I would feel guilty about laying her out with a strong attack that I know she'd never be able to defend against. On the other hand my instructor told me not to let this woman embarass me because I won't make her respect what I can do.

Anyone else been in a similar situation, anybody have any good advice?

[Blindside]

Your instructor gave you good advice, take it. One of my favorite sayings from kenpo is "Whatever the attitude, so the response."

Lamont

[Silat Student]

She's been warned and since she seems determined to take the hard way I don't see any reason why you shouldn't oblige her.

[mj-hi-yah]

Believe it or not, you are actually doing her a favor by fighting her with more power and by taking all the strikes you can get. Don't confuse this with being out of control however. You should always exercise control when you fight, but if she is fighting wildly and ineffectively, and you bring your level of sparring down - she will learn nothing from that, not to mention the respect issue your instructor is dealing with. Play any sport, or chess even, with a stronger more experienced opponent and it brings up your game. You will both get something out of your working harder here...you can work on ways to make openings and exercising control, while she learns to really defend herself, and remember some guy in the street who wants to attack her will not be so kind!

MJ :asian:

[Jmh7331]

Your instructor is right, I remember the same thing from an old school years ago. We had a big guy that would flail away and think he was awesome. He had no technique, he was just big and everyone was being nice. One time he was sparring my friend and my friend was just trying to block everything and back up with the MASS coming his way. The guy started laughing at him. Our instructor pulled my friend aside and, to paraphrase, said, "Tear this guy apart." So my buddy just started "wrecking" this guy. The guy didn't know which end was up, it was almost comical. Anyway, this guys attitude totally changed, he started learning, and is now an exceptional Martial Artist. Some people will only learn that way.

Jim

[Drac]

Your instructor gave you good advice, take it. One of my favorite sayings from kenpo is "Whatever the attitude, so the response."

Lamont
Sounds like great advice..

[MJS]

I agree with your instructor to a point. First off, I'd talk to this student. Make sure she fully understands the way you do sparring in the school. Make sure she understands what is to be expected of the students. If however she continues to spar hard, getting in some of those extra hard shots to get your point across can be done. I have sparred students who were a little out of control before and have "juiced" some of the shots. The majority of the time, it worked. However, this can also send the wrong signal to the student. It may tell them, "Oh, ok...well, I'm hitting him hard, he hit me harder, so now I have to hit him harder than he just hit me!" Now, this can turn from a friendly match to a brawl very quick. If the student is not getting the 'message' that I'm trying to send them, I stop the match and explain the rules again! If they can't seem to understand what I'm saying, they are usually done for the day as far as sparring is concerned. Keep in mind that if this school is not owned by you, and someone gets injured, a lawsuit is very possible. I don't want my inst. to lose his/her school due to a student who has no control. I have no problem with sparring hard, however, it needs to be mutually agreed upon before the match gets underway.

Mike

[Rich Parsons]

In essence my instructor told me that if hurting her is what it takes to make her respect the strikes she's taking, then that's what I need to do. My instructor is a wise woman, and she's been teaching TKD on the order of twenty years, so I'm sure she's seen this sort of thing before, and I'm sure that if that weren't the best way to handle it, she wouldn't have told me to do what I needed to do. I just don't feel quite right about hurting this woman, I know my instructor doesn't really want this woman to get hurt, it's just that sometimes life requires hard lessons, but I would feel guilty about laying her out with a strong attack that I know she'd never be able to defend against. On the other hand my instructor told me not to let this woman embarass me because I won't make her respect what I can do.

Anyone else been in a similar situation, anybody have any good advice?

First off did your instructor really tell you to hurt her? Or did she sya she needs to learn respect for what could happen to her?

If it is the latter, which is what I expect, then I think she is trying to get you to step up your responses. i.e. do not kill her, or knock her out in the first exchange, but, let her know she has been touched. If this does not work, then you increase the contact a little to let her know she has been made contact, shihc might have slowed her down, (* still with out knocking her out and also without hurting her permanently. *) Sometimes, in very circumstances, you do have to give a person a real shot, but instead of a round house to the head, tell her the next shot to her shoulder is really intended for her head. Or place the side kick in her stomache and not the ribs, to slow her down or stop her. A good shot to the body, but not in a vital area, would also let her know she has been hit or touched, and should respect what people can do to her.

Just some thoughts from my experience.

Peace
:asian:

[shesulsa]

MJS makes a good point. Without some careful orchestration, responding in kind could simply escalate the level of force on her part and the underlying lesson will soar right over her head. I would say your instructor gave you good advice as well, but how you present yourself in response is just as important as the advice she gave you. Perhaps trying to get the first hit on and giving an example of how it SHOULD be. Perhaps starting with you landing hits with control and after three hits and she doesn't get the message just tell her however hard you hit me, I'm gonna hit you. And do it.

You might also want to know that this might not be all about attitude or poor training - she might just have strong proprioceptive needs, so she's just a hard hitter by nature and doesn't feel how hard she hits. That could take A LOT longer to fix because it's indicative of a different neurological sensitivity.

Sounds like a good challenge for you and your teacher. Happy training!

[Rich Parsons]

You might also want to know that this might not be all about attitude or poor training - she might just have strong proprioceptive needs, so she's just a hard hitter by nature and doesn't feel how hard she hits. That could take A LOT longer to fix because it's indicative of a different neurological sensitivity.



This is true, in the beginning of my training when people would say, go light and I thought I was and they were complaints, and these guys go defenitely go harder, it was an issue of sensitivity. I had one officer, tell me that he liked working out with me that my 50% was as hard or harder then most of the people who woudl swing and possible land a sucker punch on him, It let him know he could take it and move on. But this is not true of everyone, it could, as Shesulsa stated, escalate the level of contact. But if she is wild and open, you shoudl still be able to get in control techniques and possible use your techniques as checks to stop ehr forward motion to show her she cannot just ignore these shots.

Nice points G! :)

[evenflow1121]

Are you guys allowing her to start as a BB in your school?

Go easy on her most of the time poor students had really terrible teachers, it's not her fault, that's the reason she acts the way she does. It is your job or your studio's rather to teach her the proper ways of MA.

[Miles]

Go easy on her most of the time poor students had really terrible teachers, it's not her fault, that's the reason she acts the way she does. It is your job or your studio's rather to teach her the proper ways of MA.
While I agree w/Evenflow1121 to a certain extent, I do think sometimes someone needs to be shown the light. I don't believe you need to attack her to the point she is injured....

My suggestion when you spar is to block this student's every attack very assertively. You don't even need to counter-attack, just make sure that each time she attempts a technique, she is thwarted and repelled. As my students hear over and over, your block is a strike... :>)

Miles

[evenflow1121]

While I agree w/Evenflow1121 to a certain extent, I do think sometimes someone needs to be shown the light. I don't believe you need to attack her to the point she is injured....

My suggestion when you spar is to block this student's every attack very assertively. You don't even need to counter-attack, just make sure that each time she attempts a technique, she is thwarted and repelled. As my students hear over and over, your block is a strike... :>)

Miles
Excellent suggestion, you do not need to humiliate her, blocking her strikes alone should do the job.

[Andrew Green]

That's often the only way people learn, you're instructor knows the drill.

Don't feel so bad about hitting someone, it is a martial arts class afterall. People don't get "broken" that easily, enough to make the point but not to really hurt is a good thing.

What she has is one of the biggest bad habits that comes from light / no contact all the time. No respect for the strikes, leaving you very sloppy and getting hit a lot, because, well, there is no motivation to not get hit...

[evenflow1121]

Yes, but atleast in my view there is a difference between walking into an MA school, undisciplined for the first time, and walking in there with a McDojo BB. The latter would prob take hits and strikes a lot better, since they have never been exposed to martial arts. The former having been exposed to teaching, albeit poor teaching at best, no matter how little even a year, may simply run back to her old school, and continue on a negative trend. It's a kid what we are talking about here, not an adult afterall. If you strike this kid to the point that she is humiliated infront of the class, it is going to do more damage than good.

[silatman]

This is true, in the beginning of my training when people would say, go light and I thought I was and they were complaints, and these guys go defenitely go harder, it was an issue of sensitivity. I had one officer, tell me that he liked working out with me that my 50% was as hard or harder then most of the people who woudl swing and possible land a sucker punch on him, It let him know he could take it and move on. But this is not true of everyone, it could, as Shesulsa stated, escalate the level of contact. But if she is wild and open, you shoudl still be able to get in control techniques and possible use your techniques as checks to stop ehr forward motion to show her she cannot just ignore these shots.

Nice points G! :)
Sorry if this takes it off topic but I'm always being told to go lighter when I think I am, how do you go about changing the your sensitivity?

[TKDKid]

Yes, but atleast in my view there is a difference between walking into an MA school, undisciplined for the first time, and walking in there with a McDojo BB. The latter would prob take hits and strikes a lot better, since they have never been exposed to martial arts. The former having been exposed to teaching, albeit poor teaching at best, no matter how little even a year, may simply run back to her old school, and continue on a negative trend. It's a kid what we are talking about here, not an adult afterall. If you strike this kid to the point that she is humiliated infront of the class, it is going to do more damage than good.
Well...actually, she's probably in her mid thirties, I'd say. She isn't a black belt, she has a blue belt from her previous school, which she says is the equivelant to our purple belt. At our school purple comes after blue.

[shesulsa]

Sorry if this takes it off topic but I'm always being told to go lighter when I think I am, how do you go about changing the your sensitivity?
There are sensitivity exercises you can do to increase your tactile impress. First, ask your teacher/instructor about it. PM me later.

[Han-Mi]

When beginners or new students first start asparring in our class, they always spar with higher ranks first. THe higher ranks are able to control the match and it lets the person ease into what is happening. There have been students who would blow through the light strkes that were placed on them and keep attacking unaffraid of the consequences. I like to call it a blatent disregard for self preservation.

What I usually do is give them a warning then I take all of their air and make it mine. If every time the person attacks wildly they get knocked down, they stop attacking wildly. The key is to allow them to attack without dropping them if they actually control themselves, so that they learn that it is better. Though if you are good at dodging, it can be fun tagging and circling so that they ant get a fix on ya. But they need to learn eventually

[Rich Parsons]

Sorry if this takes it off topic but I'm always being told to go lighter when I think I am, how do you go about changing the your sensitivity?


As Shesulsa stated, there are ways to this and I am sure there are many. One of them was to feel the tension in the body for joint locks to understand pressure applied. Another was to go with someone who has patience, and allows you to punch them in the arm or chest while you work on the level of contact, with the person. They explain that it should be softer or harder, for the level of contact they are looking for.

This helped me to work with people of other arts as well as those in the same art.

[Jonathan Randall]

Well...actually, she's probably in her mid thirties, I'd say. She isn't a black belt, she has a blue belt from her previous school, which she says is the equivelant to our purple belt. At our school purple comes after blue.If she's in her mid-thirties and still has, apparently, a maturity problem than I don't think you're going to cure her of it. Just protect yourself and don't worry so much about "teaching" her as staying out of her way. Odds are she'll be kicked out of your school for misconduct before too long as she was kicked out of her previous school.

McDojang trained students can be frustrating, though, as they have no basis of comparison and are used to instant gratification in the way of promotions.

[evenflow1121]

Well then I have to agree with the above poster, I am really at a loss for words. A mid thirty year old person should have enough common sense to not get up on anyone's face.

[hardheadjarhead]

Personally, I don't think that nailing her with some hard shots will educate her. From what you described, she's likely to just leave or blow a fuse.

I'd suggest talking to her about it. Were I the instructor, I'd have her sit down after several warnings...if need be publicly admonishing her to watch her control and lack of technique. I'd try saving face for her by first talking to her behind closed doors. A sample of what I might say:

"If you can't throw clean technique, with control, you can't wear that belt in here. Performing like that reflects poorly on the art and this school. You have to live up to your rank here, and I expect you to start NOW."

I'd ask you to consider that this isn't about the McDojo...this is about her. Indeed it sounds like she was every bit a problem for them, as well. While they're to blame for giving her a belt far too quickly, she's the one with the majority of the issues.

What can you (and your instructor) do to help salvage her as a martial artist?

This could be one of those times you'll look back on with regret, or it could be one of the best moments of your martial arts career where you know you contributed to the development of a person's character. True, no matter how you play it this might turn out bad. Some people are impossible to work with...that said I hope you, your peers, and your instructor don't unintentionally set her up for failure.

Good luck.



Regards,


Steve

[Han-Mi]

usually, people this immature don't respond well to suggesting they tone it down. They usually say something like, well if you cant handle it, I'll go somewhere else. They need to understand and respect the abilities of the other students and their well being as the other students do respect hers. Most often this is best accomplished by a short spurt of pain.

[Grenadier]

My opinion (and it's just mine):

1) This lady seems to have good spirit, even if some of it may be misplaced. That's good, since you have a pretty nice foundation on which to build.

2) Kindly explain to her, that everyone in the classroom is there to help each other, and not to antagonize. You're all there as professionals, and comrades, and aren't there to beat the stuffing out of each other.

3) Also explain to her, about the merits of practicing with control. By all means, encourage her to go hard, but to also practice the art of pulling one's punches. Explain to her that the principles of tapping the gi versus giving an all-out hit are still the same; one stops at the surface, the other goes 8 inches beyond.

Now, if none of the above are helping...

Some "gentle" humility lessons are in order for her. While nobody should be out to harm her, or even hit her with a brutally hard shot, it wouldn't hurt to let her spar with the more senior students, or yes, even the instructors. If their defenses are good, they can deal with her hard-charging, sloppy techniques.

If she realizes that her techniques aren't getting the job done, maybe that will open her mind to a much greater world. If, though, she continues to persist, then it wouldn't hurt to give a decent thumping shot as a gentle reminder that her methods could use some refinement. Since she's experienced, and has probably taken her share of hits, this shouldn't be too shocking to her.

Above all, be patient. It's probably going to take some time to erase some of the misconceptions that she has learned. If you can help her overcome these, then you'll get the enjoyment of having been a significant contributor to her becoming a fine student.

[DavidCC]

Whoever administers the wake-up call to her should definitely be one of your female students.

[Han-Mi]

Whoever administers the wake-up call to her should definitely be one of your female students.
Agreed