Limits on sharing information

[Don Roley]

Recent events and various threads have got me to thinking about this more the usual lately.

Just how much information should there be out there on the internet about ninjutsu? How much should we be helping people?

I want this board to be a good source for information. Or at least, a source with no bad information. But how much is enough and how much is too much?

In the last few years I have moved away from posting a lot of information about history and things like that and now I mainly try to point people to where they can get more physical training.

There are a few reasons why I do this. First of all, there are frauds out there that try to make what they do sound like the stuff from Japan. Why should I help them to better fool students?

But there are other reasons as well. I think that people should help each other, but that everyone needs to make an effort on their own. So my pointing a finger towards bettering themselves is my way of doing both. If people want to get better, they can do that on their own. I will only tell them how to get to a good instructor or find a good source.

Some people think that we should do more to help people understand. Some people can't make it to Japan, etc, is the cry I hear. Well, we all can't do as much as we would like. I have a family to take care of and I can't get to training five days a week. I do not see how anyone who can owes me a damn thing.

I would like to hear some reasoned and calm discussion about the matter to try to get a better understanding and see if I am missing something.

[arnisador]

On the one hand, I see your point--especially with regard to arming frauds with information that they could use to defraud others.

On the other hand, playing "I've got a secret" never comes across well, even when it's appropriate--and all the less so on a discussion board.

It's a tough call, and I don't have the answer.

The issue about going to Japan, though, speaks to commitment. Is there a minimum commitment level that gives a person "buy-in" to information--that allows them to be treated as a comrade? I'm fully committed to Modern Arnis, but I study JKD and BJJ on the side, to augment it. When I practice at home, it's Modern Arnis. This has meant that my BJJ, for example, hasn't advanced as quickly as it could have--but, my focus is where I want it to be. Still, if BJJ people withheld info. from me on that basis, I'd be put off--though I'd understand them not investing a lot of their time in me since it isn't my focus. I guess my question is: Where are you drawing the line between people with whom you'd share and those with whom you would not? Or, is it just that this is public and archived--would you share via PM?

As an aside, this interests me in part because I'm about to spend a year in Albuquerque, NM, where this art is taught, and I'm looking for a temporary place to study. All I want is too expand my knowledge by doing something intersting; I'll still be an arnisador at heart. I was looking at a ninjutsu school website tonight. (I have no idea if it's close to where I'll be living or not, but it's in the same city. I could end up studying anything!) But if I went there and said I was coming for one year only, would I be frozen out of the good stuff?

Again, it's a tough question and I can see why you're grappling with it.

[Shogun]

It is a tough call, but I think what Don is refering to is NON practitioners. if you practice BJJ and someone withholds info from you, they are not worth training with, or even talking to. but if you dont train it, they have the right to let you find out for yourself. well, thats my opinion on that matter.

[Don Roley]

On the other hand, playing "I've got a secret" never comes across well, even when it's appropriate--and all the less so on a discussion board.

That would be annoying. But I am mainly talking about detailed discussions of kata, moves, etc. There is no secret that I have seen some stuff here in Japan. I am not just willing to be too free with the information.

And as for you New Mexico question, I do not think that anything would be held back because of the limited time you plan on training. But naturally some stuff will be held back until you get the building blocks needed down.

[Don Roley]

It is a tough call, but I think what Don is refering to is NON practitioners. if you practice BJJ and someone withholds info from you, they are not worth training with, or even talking to. but if you dont train it, they have the right to let you find out for yourself. well, thats my opinion on that matter.

Well, I was talking about non-practicioners. But I also am talking about helping practicioners.

I have seen people who refused to use the search function and said so. They wanted all their answers laid out for them. They wanted people to spend time typing so they would not have to spend time reading.

In this case, if someone wants answers about kata being taught in Japan, I don't think I should be answering their questions. If I know someone who was here when the kata was being taught I could drop their name and advise people to go see them. But if the other guy is not willing to do that, why should I put out any effort to help them understand the kata?

One thing that Bester wrote kind of sums up my thoughts sometimes.


(name removed), why don't you just ask us all your questions, and we will be more than happy to do all the searching for you. We're out of Silver Platters however, so you'll have to take paper.

Yeah, some people do not have access to resources others have. We all make choices as to what it important in our lives. If someone wants to build up their business or devote time to their family they are not expected to give me time with their kids or part of their paycheck. So why do I see some people seem to say that those that sacrificed to live here in Japan are under an obligation to hand something over on a silver platter?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That would be annoying. But I am mainly talking about detailed discussions of kata, moves, etc.
Hold on a sec. Is it historical matters or techniques you do not want to inform the fraudsters about?

The latter is something I don't think we need to be concerned about...

[Shogun]

The latter is something I don't think we need to be concerned about...true.
We can say, "capture uke's right hand with you right, then reach across with your left and grasp their lapel." and that kinda stuff but it would be impossible to learn "ninja" from that. The history....yes. if a fraud had detailed historical info, then they could lie easier, couldn't they?

[Don Roley]

I don't think they could learn enough to do the techniques. But I thing they could learn enough to fool other people. If they know the language (Koppojutsu, kuzushi, etc) and the movements they do has some sort of resemblence to the Bujinkan guys down the block, the students would be less likely to realize they were not getting the real deal.

[arnisador]

But there's enough of that sort of info. in the books by Stephen K. Hayes, and the grandmaster, and otehrs, isn't there?

Heh, maybe these are the same frauds that can't use Search and so reading is too much for them! I agree, there's no excuse for that, esp. since people here will usually point them to it and suggest keywords.

[Don Roley]

But there's enough of that sort of info. in the books by Stephen K. Hayes, and the grandmaster, and otehrs, isn't there?

There is some stuff out there. But should we put out more than these people can get from such sources?

Moreover, sometimes people can read things and get the wrong idea. If people are training with a legitimate instructor, they can get their mistaken impressions corrected. If they are a fraud, then they will go to the internet to get corrected and be more like the real deal- but not quite.

One of the first things I think when I hear some of the questions posed on these forums is, "why is he asking here instead of his teacher?" I am very suspicious of questions that would be best asked to a real, live teacher but are instead asked here.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

One of the first things I think when I hear some of the questions posed on these forums is, "why is he asking here instead of his teacher?" I am very suspicious of questions that would be best asked to a real, live teacher but are instead asked here.
These are the most common explanations to that phenomenon in my experience...

a) the guy has already asked his instructor but the instructor is not a shidoshi but a shidoshi-ho running a training group, and thus not as knowledgeable as might be preferable

b) the guy has already asked his instructor and is curious to see if his ideas are supported by other shidoshi

c) the guy is relatively new to the X-kan world and is hesitant to ask his instructor face-to-face.

[Shogun]

I have asked questions here that can be found in my school, but the problem lies in how the Bujinkan conducts its "open" concepts. It may not be the answer one is searching for, and they legitimately beleive the right answer for them is out there. so they ask here, where they have access to dozens of Booj guys of all levels.

[arnisador]

If people are training with a legitimate instructor, they can get their mistaken impressions corrected. If they are a fraud, then they will go to the internet to get corrected and be more like the real deal- but not quite. Agreed; Nimravus makes some good points about why asking their instructor maynot be enough for them, though. I can think of others, but your objection still stands.


One of the first things I think when I hear some of the questions posed on these forums is, "why is he asking here instead of his teacher?" I am very suspicious of questions that would be best asked to a real, live teacher but are instead asked here. I agree. I have the same suspicions. But I feel this way across many forums here--yet, isn't that what a discussion forum is for?

I'm not arguing against your point--I have similar concerns and am also not sure where I want to draw the line. Your art fires the imagination and inspires wholesale frauds, but many instructors add "just a little" stickwork to their art and claim they're teaching arnis. Often they use the terminology in very wrong ways, but worse yet, they're teaching nonsense--hitting incorrectly, blocking incorrectly, using deep horse stances to spar from, etc. We see more of it than you mightthink.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

One might also start in the other end - what is it that enables the frauds to attract students despite obviously questionable credentials? It's not that complicated to cater to people incapable of critical thinking...

[Don Roley]

One might also start in the other end - what is it that enables the frauds to attract students despite obviously questionable credentials?

The owner of this site had a great quote that people shop for martial arts instructors like they shop for toasters. Whatever has the lowest price and the most chrome. :rolleyes:

Gawd Damn but ain't it true?

[Jonathan Randall]

I don't think they could learn enough to do the techniques. But I thing they could learn enough to fool other people. If they know the language (Koppojutsu, kuzushi, etc) and the movements they do has some sort of resemblence to the Bujinkan guys down the block, the students would be less likely to realize they were not getting the real deal.Actually, I think you are doing a service to potential, MATURE, students. The best way to spot a forgery is to be knowledgeable about the real thing - ask any document examiner.

Also, there are enough Bujinkan or offshoot videos out there for an aspiring fraud to get a hold of so I really don't think your posts are enabling them.

Also, as a non-practioner, I have enjoyed reading your posts over the years both here and at E-Budo where I am a lurker. When I had a co-worker who was interested in a home study course offered by a neo-ninja, I was able to point her in the right direction as a result of my Martial Talk and E-Budo education.

Face it, those who want to be fooled, will be fooled. Take a sport karate or tkd McDojo BB with really cool spinning jump kicks and a black suit and the gullible will flock to join. Think of these phonies as a filter - they keep real instructors from having to deal with so many immature "ninjer" wannabees.

Don't get discouraged. Sometimes it's hard not to, but legitimate practioners have the respect of those whose respect is valuable; frauds only have the adulation of the gullible.

[Don Roley]

Interesting responses.

One thing else I should throw out- there are people who do have some training in the Bujinkan but have let their ego control them to the point where they no longer think they need a full time teacher. The get by with the DVDs and such. Those types are the folks that now bad- mouth Hatsumi and yet try to use his reputation to attract students.

I really do not want to help people like that. There are new things being shown that old timers say they have never seen. So why should someone who has not bothered to show any loyalty to Hatsumi get a bit of help in trying to make his stuff sound up to date?

[DWeidman]

Interesting responses.

One thing else I should throw out- there are people who do have some training in the Bujinkan but have let their ego control them to the point where they no longer think they need a full time teacher. The get by with the DVDs and such. Those types are the folks that now bad- mouth Hatsumi and yet try to use his reputation to attract students.

I really do not want to help people like that. There are new things being shown that old timers say they have never seen. So why should someone who has not bothered to show any loyalty to Hatsumi get a bit of help in trying to make his stuff sound up to date?Hey Don -

Since there is no quality control on who reads this board - there is no way to make sure the message only gets to who you want it to get to.

If you are really worried about the above scenarios - then it looks like your posting days are over.

I - for one - don't care about any othe situations posted above. Water seeks its own level - and my additional information has little to do with enabling someone who is already of low moral character. frauds will be frauds - and wannabes will be wannabes. In the end - it is all about the taijutsu. If your body speaks - the *right* students will come. And the wrong ones will still be training under the spinning kick guy or the guy who is on his own.

Just my .02.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy.

[Shogun]

I think in the end, info can be posted on the web, but we dont need to go spilling everything out there. however, I think if someone asks a question, than its only nice to help them w/the question (I know, I know, Mr Roley is not a nice guy)

[Gina]

I feel the problem with the internet is that it is very difficult to vet who is putting the information on the forums in the first place. Although some of the more expererienced members may be able to tell what is true or fraudulent technique there are others that do not. I have to agree with Don Roley here. Kata, technique etc should not be published on the internet.

Only recently i met an ex student of mine who had decided to go his own way. He had not reached black belt but was teaching. He then showed me what he was teaching. And it was pages of kata from the nine schools printed from the internet and without mentioning no names much of the stuff was from very dubious sites.

There are many of us out there studying the Takamatsuden Arts in a honest, responsible, and professional manner. But equally there are people out there who are not. Lets not give these people free information they can use to make money off others. If they want to learn the real Takamatsuden arts let them pay like the rest of us for our training material.

Gary Arthur
(Quest UK, Northants Quest Centre)

[Koinu]

In short the Dojo and and good instructor/s is the place for teaching and to have any questions answered , ( Oximoron as all questions I have ever asked my instructors just lead to more questions, even when provided with the answer)
I don't feel the internet is any place to provide answers to any but the most basic type questions for several reasons.
You need to feel the (insert) Tec, waza, kata, henka) and how it relates to sanshin/Kihon too have any hope of understanding it.
Most of the people asking the questions are really trying to get to far ahead of themselves and would be better served just trying to gain the feeling from the lessons of the day as presented by their instructor/s,and how they relate back to Sanshin/Kihon.
Then you get into the area of who is asking the questions and what will they do with the info who else may read it.
Etc Etc Etc

[DWeidman]

I feel the problem with the internet is that it is very difficult to vet who is putting the information on the forums in the first place. Although some of the more expererienced members may be able to tell what is true or fraudulent technique there are others that do not. I have to agree with Don Roley here. Kata, technique etc should not be published on the internet.

Only recently i met an ex student of mine who had decided to go his own way. He had not reached black belt but was teaching. He then showed me what he was teaching. And it was pages of kata from the nine schools printed from the internet and without mentioning no names much of the stuff was from very dubious sites.

Gary Arthur
(Quest UK, Northants Quest Centre)
And???

And what happened when you met him - is his more successful? Did you lose sleep that night? Did he thrash you within an inch of your life?

If Hatsumi is willing to make training videos and sell them (doing a much better job of "teaching" than these internet boards) why are you worried about a dork who has "kata pages" from "dubious sites"?

Hell - half the instuctors ***in*** the Bujinkan currently have crappy kata...

Do you think that highly of your coveted information?

-Daniel Weidman

[Mountain Kusa]

I have been watching this thread with interest. How ever I dont believe that someone who is not training with some one will not be able to understand it anyway. For example the Konigun thing keeps coming up here and at other sites. Without getting into a big disortation about that, the frauds are generally easy to spot. Even from Web pages it is easy to spot bad Kamae. I think the best way to squash these people is to get the good information to the people that are truly seeking what it means to be training in Budo Taijutsu. I myself train with many instructors that all know each other, train with each other, go to seminars with each other and help each others students; be it with ranking, help with kata, sanshin Kihon etc. We lovingly call it the collective.

I myself have never been a kata collector, everything I have was given to me freely without me ever asking from reputable people. If I need help with something, or am not understanding it, I have many people to call, or ask help from, and we make it that way. We then take this thing work on it, make henka from many directions, the Kihon, sanshin, gyakku, musho, oase, otoshi, ori, etc.

I have come to realize from Don that the kata I have may be and probably are incomplete. But it is all I have, but I believe that If I train long enough, It will eventually come to me. If it dosnt, I have plenty to skin. I would rather be excellent at a few things and be able to use them, then be mediocre at many and not.

So I believe that helping those that are serious students is a good thing, if we help them, then their students get better, attain their yudansha levels, spread out across the land, and open new training groups. Then we will eventually choke out the frauds. All of our instructors under the collective travel around, and all the other instructors try to attend and bring their students, then we have big seminars. Instead of ten in the beginning showing up, they are now getting up in the 40-60-100 range. Everybody learns and profits.

Let the fakes do what the fakes are going to do, if there is anything of value people will try to copy it and profit from it. Just look at money. Despite all the technology, somebody all ways manages to make a counterfeit. They look good, but are worth nothing. Eventually with a little tattletale pen, the truth will come out. Time will tell. Good thread

[Henso]

Gentlemen,

This is a an excellent post, and recently, almost every board I have visited seems to be recycling the same tired old posts, so a courageous one is refreshing. As concerns the matter of posting too much on the web, and thus accidently assisting frauds by providing them with information that they otherwise would not have had, the cat is already out of the bag.

Long ago, Hatsumi Sensei decided to share this art with the world, and even secrets eminating from the Togakure Ryu, itself, are avaialable for all to see. Visit Richard Van Donk's site and you can buy videos that show extensive portions of 6 of the ryuha's kata. Flip through Sensei's last book, The Way of The Ninja, and you'll see some of the most coveted kata of the Bujinkan, those of the Santo Tonko Gata, plainly laid out for all to see. A different strategy to protect the innocent from frauds is required other than attempting to screen information that is already widely available.

In say all of this as a current member of the Bujinkan, who became such after discovering the art through a fraud who had attended SKH seminars, only to then declare himself soke of the Koga Ryu, via the Fujita Seiko line. I then utilized available information to determine that the fraud in question, David J. D'Antonio, could not be what he claimed he was. My ability to do so was based upon the available information, and not upon what information was withheld by legitimate practitioners. Indeed, the refusal of many to share information about the legitimate practices of the BBT, only serves to sheild the frauds from unfavorable exposure that would result from comparisons of the real thing to the egotistical parody thereof.

My personal conclusion is that maximum exposure serves to separate the sublime from the contrived, and that more open information will force the frauds to acheive a threshold of skill and knowledge that they don't posses the dedication to attain. This will then lead to the weeding out of the true from the false, mirroring the actions of Hatsumi Sensei, as demonstrated in his books, videos, and seminars, over the last twenty five years.

I urge everyone to share as much information as possible, as wideley as possible, in an attempt to combat the depraved egotist that thrive in the shadows of this art's reputation. Below are a few small contributions to this effort that I have either authored or collaborated in, there are more in progress that I cannot currently mention at the time.

http://daviddantonio.tripod.com/ (Authored)

http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com (http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/) (Authored)

I have recently recvd three Menkyo Kaiden issued by Fujita between 1943-1948, and an item that appears in one of his books that I will be making public as part of a larger publication.

http://www.specsec.org/CDWall.html (Collaborated)

[Shogun]

A different strategy to protect the innocent from frauds is required other than attempting to screen information that is already widely available.
Interesting, yet very valid approach. If only the "real" guys know whats real, then its easier for frauds to do what they do. If the info is widely available, anyone can see the real stuff, granted they understand that everything spawns from Bujinkan.

[Tengu6]

Don, this is a very valid concern IMO, however, take a look at the most successful frauds.......they have no legitemate info whatsover, only black Gi's with hoods........even if you post true history, those who are frauds would find it takes too much effort to learn and they have already fooled thoudands with BS.......why invest time in the real stuff?

Seriously, look at Rick Tew and his Tew Ryu Ninjutsu, he runs a very successful business on completely erroneous info.

As you may know I publish an online magazine with the intent of sharing different persectives from respected Buyu internationally. Even for students who make it to Japan, Soke can teach something and it can be interpreted differently even by Judan and above. IMO, these differing persectives can be of great value.

Certain things definately should only be transmitted in person, but there is a way to be helpful without saying too much. Once people have trained in Japan or with those who do, certain things you say will make sense, but not to outsiders. Even Sokes video do not reveal everything, if you do not have an instructor you may not see the things Soke left out on purpose.
So, I guess what i am trying to say is that frauds dont need factual info to be successful. If you post something historical it will require more on my end than just simply reading it to make use of it, and IMO, frauds wont invest that kind of effort.

Just my perspective,
Markk Bush

[Don Roley]

I don't know. I think I have done the best service not be introducing new information, but rather when I point people in the direction of existing sources that contradict what the fruads are putting out.

But there is also the matter of should we be putting out all this information instead of forcing people to get real instructors with valid, current links to Japan?

Much of what American Bujinkan members do is wrong, just wrong. Dan touched on this. It is not just the written kata that are mistaken, the very way they are used and the skills that they are built on are just missing from a good part of the American (and presumably other countires) version of Bujinkan. San shin, etc- most people really don't know much of what they are doing I think. Everyone thinks they are doing the right thing and talk about basics- but a lot of them do things I have been corrected on here in Japan. I can show you kenjutsu videos for sale by people like Steven Hayes who just do not seem to even know how to cut with one.

They did not learn the way the Japanese shihan did. They learned from seminars, from students who had only seen the information for a short while before trying to teach it and even things like videos and the internet.

But there are people like Luke Molitor who teach sword and do it right. He lived in Japan and got a good relationship with Someya- the guy to know if you want to know swordsmanship Bujinkan style. He got led through the basics, had them corrected over time when needed and still comes back to get his skills corrected and expanded.

He is out there right now giving classes in how to use a sword and he seems to be revolutionizing Bujinkan kenjutsu in America almost single handidly.

What does this have to do with what I am talking about? Well, despite all the stuff availible on sword in the Bujinkan over the years, the quality is still pretty low. But once a person like Luke sails through, the source can be used correctly. Before that, they mearly seem to serve as a means of fooling people into thinking they are learning more than they do.

So by giving out too much information instead of helping people to get here to Japan, are we perhaps just helping them to fool themselves and put off the lessons from a real instructor that they need?

[Tengu6]

I don't know. I think I have done the best service not be introducing new information, but rather when I point people in the direction of existing sources that contradict what the fruads are putting out.

But there is also the matter of should we be putting out all this information instead of forcing people to get real instructors with valid, current links to Japan?

Much of what American Bujinkan members do is wrong, just wrong. Dan touched on this. It is not just the written kata that are mistaken, the very way they are used and the skills that they are built on are just missing from a good part of the American (and presumably other countires) version of Bujinkan. San shin, etc- most people really don't know much of what they are doing I think. Everyone thinks they are doing the right thing and talk about basics- but a lot of them do things I have been corrected on here in Japan. I can show you kenjutsu videos for sale by people like Steven Hayes who just do not seem to even know how to cut with one.

They did not learn the way the Japanese shihan did. They learned from seminars, from students who had only seen the information for a short while before trying to teach it and even things like videos and the internet.

But there are people like Luke Molitor who teach sword and do it right. He lived in Japan and got a good relationship with Someya- the guy to know if you want to know swordsmanship Bujinkan style. He got led through the basics, had them corrected over time when needed and still comes back to get his skills corrected and expanded.

He is out there right now giving classes in how to use a sword and he seems to be revolutionizing Bujinkan kenjutsu in America almost single handidly.

What does this have to do with what I am talking about? Well, despite all the stuff availible on sword in the Bujinkan over the years, the quality is still pretty low. But once a person like Luke sails through, the source can be used correctly. Before that, they mearly seem to serve as a means of fooling people into thinking they are learning more than they do.

So by giving out too much information instead of helping people to get here to Japan, are we perhaps just helping them to fool themselves and put off the lessons from a real instructor that they need?Possibly yes, on the other side some sincerely want to get to Japan but just can not make that a reality....or, they can only afford it maybe once and are saving for that one time trip. However, in the meantime these people are still doing thier thing in the USA (or other countries) so without guidence from those who have the exposure such as yourself, they may be turning into frauds within our own organization unknowingly.

As you have stated, those who train in Japan do not owe anything to those who dont. But helping goes a long way toward the betterment of those who study this art.

BTW, I just attended a seminar with Luke Molitor and you are not kidding, what a wealth of knowledge that man is, and if you pay attention there are all kinds of nuances under the surface that he is showing.

Markk Bush

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

*thread hijack*

Don, could you check your inbox please?

*/end thread hijack*

[Floating Egg]

I'm not so sure that encouraging people to go to Japan is the answer.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I am.

Not for a mere two weeks though.

[Henso]

I would never discouarge the idea of going to Japan, however, going for more than two weeks simply not in the cards for most people, as they are not independently wealthy. There has to be a more practical way to enlighten and encourage the innumerable seekers who have seen the magic of BBT, just as the fundamental ideas of the martial arts have journeyed from India to China to Japan, etc.


It is via the free exchange of ideas that cultures and arts have flourished throughout human history, and the martial arts are no different. During the course of this exchange, the martial arts (BBT) will evolve. Yes, often for the worse, but, somewhere along the path of it's travel outside of Japan, it will encounter someone who will impact it profoundly, and for the better(Think of Hatsumi openly teaching these arts to the Gaigin, as an example). This is the way of ideas, concepts and arts, and BBT is no different than any other idea/concept.

Take one look at Hatsumi Sensei, nobody can deny that he is a visionary of the first order. Is it because he is a purist, rigidly adhering to the letter of Japan's martial traditions? No! It is because he had the courage/vision to depart, both in thought and practice from the tradition of holding these among a small, closed group of individuals, and thus never having them extend beyond the confines of this small group, let alone Japan.

We must take page out of the book of the book of the man who made it possible for us all to discuss, let alone practice this art, spreading it far and wide, so that it can both effect and be effected by those who come in contact with it.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It is via the free exchange of ideas that cultures and arts have flourished throughout human history, and the martial arts are no different. During the course of this exchange, the martial arts (BBT) will evolve. Yes, often for the worse, but, somewhere along the path of it's travel outside of Japan, it will encounter someone who will impact it profoundly, and for the better(Think of Hatsumi openly teaching these arts to the Gaigin, as an example).
Sounds like you are suggesting that us westerners can teach Hatsumi sensei how to do his job. :rolleyes:


This is the way of ideas, concepts and arts, and BBT is no different than any other idea/concept.
Uhm, yes it is.


Take one look at Hatsumi Sensei, nobody can deny that he is a visionary of the first order. Is it because he is a purist, rigidly adhering to the letter of Japan's martial traditions? No! It is because he had the courage/vision to depart, both in thought and practice from the tradition of holding these among a small, closed group of individuals, and thus never having them extend beyond the confines of this small group, let alone Japan.
Before that "departure", he was also firmly rooted in kihon far beyond what most people in the Bujinkan are today...

[White]

if we are talking about budo, then one knows that you have to go through the 3 diffrent levels, shu, ha and ree. you can talk about the same thing with all 3 of these students of diffrent levels, and you will get 3 diffrent answers.

as for secrets there are none in budo. do is tao in mandarin and tao is nature. you could translate budo as human responses to nature.
i can tell you anything i like about budo, but unless you experience the tao you will still be as you were before.

so i woulden worry about giving away any secrets.

[Don Roley]

I would never discouarge the idea of going to Japan, however, going for more than two weeks simply not in the cards for most people, as they are not independently wealthy.

Which is why I say to either train in Japan and/or train under someone who does!!!! I already mentioned Luke "Tamayoke" Molitor as an example. Hatsumi has said basically the same thing. Train under people who are still training under him.

I think it is important in a lot of ways.

For one, there was a heck of a lot of mistakes made in the early transmision of the art to America. We are still paying the price overall. Everyone can point to people they know who have bad basics. Guys..... are you so sure your own basics are up to snuff? I thought I knew the basics when I got here and had my nose rubbed in it after I had proven myself a bit. I am still trying to get rid of bad habits built up from years of doing things my old teacher's way instead of what the guys in Japan are teaching.

We need to stop trying to add on new information and start looking at the very, very basics to try to get them down. That really will not happen in a seminar- and especially not from the internet.

I also think the tie to Japan is important in what it says about the person. Everyone can get better. Who do you get better from? If you claim to teach Hatsumi's art, somewhere in the mix there has to be a current link to Hatsumi. Otherwise you are saying you know more than he about his art. There has to be some way of someone looking at what you do and making corrections. Just piling on more kata is probably pretty worthless if you don't get that type of feedback on even the most basic stuff. That ain't going to happen over the internet.

But there are folks who don't train much with anyone. What the heck are they thinking? But some of them are big on the internet and have large piles of videos.

Oh, and I will be the first to admit that I have seen people show up in Japan merely looking to vailidate what they do and impress their students with their pictures and next rank. Hatsumi gives them what they want and doesn't help them much. They go away and the serious students get to go to smaller, more hands on, classes.

But if someone is not even willing to train with others or go to Japan, how are they going to get better? They are not. But with the amount of stuff out there they can fool themselves and others by thinking that by expanding the size of their notebooks, they expand their skill.

This is a wide ranging topic and one that I frequently think about. We have to do our best to get better. If we can't get to Hatsumi, we need to get to someone better than us in his art. We need to cut down to what we know, instead of what we can get off the internet and videos. In short, we need to be good at a few things instead of lousy at a lot.

[Floating Egg]

For the record, I agree with much of what Don has said, but I'm going to play devil's advocate in the hope of gaining some clarity. I’m going to try and phrase my questions from the perspective of what someone outside of the Bujinkan might think. I have an investment in the Bujinkan, so I’ll probably fail miserably, but I think it’s worth a try.


Which is why I say to either train in Japan and/or train under someone who does!!!! I already mentioned Luke "Tamayoke" Molitor as an example. Hatsumi has said basically the same thing. Train under people who are still training under him.How strict should one be with your suggestion? What about these people that train in Japan and return to their homeland to teach? They are a minority within the organization and they certainly don't reside in all territories. For some people it is as difficult to move to another state or province for training as it is to move to another country.

For those of us that are willing to move to train with someone that has a direct and active connection to Japan, does this completely eliminate controversy? What about practitioners that actively go to Japan and train regularly, but are viewed with some level of skepticism by other practitioners?


For one, there was a heck of a lot of mistakes made in the early transmision of the art to America. We are still paying the price overall. Everyone can point to people they know who have bad basics. Guys..... are you so sure your own basics are up to snuff? I thought I knew the basics when I got here and had my nose rubbed in it after I had proven myself a bit. I am still trying to get rid of bad habits built up from years of doing things my old teacher's way instead of what the guys in Japan are teaching.Is it also possible that what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching is riddled with mistakes if looked at from a certain perspective? We are a much different people, the Japanese included, than the founders of our art. None of this was developed for personal growth, fitness, or fun. It was originally intended for hurting people. We dress it up as a survival art, but if you look closely at what we do, much of it is for causing pain, injury, and death. And yet we practice all of this with a completely different mindset then that of Ancient Japan. Though we may train for survival, we certainly don't need it to survive. How would one of the founders of the various Ryu view our interpretation? Is it not a corruption of a sort?

Has the evolution of the art been entirely for the better? Judging by the videos, Takamatsu Sensei moves differently than Hatsumi Sensei. Is it possible that Hatsumi Sensei has forgotten something or that his interpretation of something is different than that of his teacher?


We need to stop trying to add on new information and start looking at the very, very basics to try to get them down. That really will not happen in a seminar- and especially not from the internet.Who's basics exactly? Even for those that train in Japan regularly, there seems to be a divergence on this point.


I also think the tie to Japan is important in what it says about the person. Everyone can get better. Who do you get better from? If you claim to teach Hatsumi's art, somewhere in the mix there has to be a current link to Hatsumi. Otherwise you are saying you know more than he about his art. There has to be some way of someone looking at what you do and making corrections. Just piling on more kata is probably pretty worthless if you don't get that type of feedback on even the most basic stuff. That ain't going to happen over the internet.Are you sure it's happening outside of the internet? There have so far been a number of divergences from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi Sensei by some high level practitioners. Not all of them have left the Bujinkan itself. Currently, as viewed by the community, and with a significant level of caution, there are members ranked as Judan and above that seem to share a philosophy and approach to the Bujinkan that is radically different than the majority's interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's teachings. Despite regular training with Hatsumi, these practitioners are either ignored or indirectly accepted. Sometimes they're scolded, but it is a fleeting thing, and when they return to their homeland they often take on the role that Hatsumi should play.


But there are folks who don't train much with anyone. What the heck are they thinking? But some of them are big on the internet and have large piles of videos.Aren't there exceptions to the rule? I know of a few practitioners that no longer have a valid link to Japan. Some have produced students solidly grounded in the "basics" and some of these students have gone to Japan with a foundation that is sometimes viewed as greater than that of those that visit Japan once or twice a year.


Oh, and I will be the first to admit that I have seen people show up in Japan merely looking to vailidate what they do and impress their students with their pictures and next rank. Hatsumi gives them what they want and doesn't help them much. They go away and the serious students get to go to smaller, more hands on, classes.Isn't this equally as damaging as publicly supporting these practitioners?



But if someone is not even willing to train with others or go to Japan, how are they going to get better? They are not. But with the amount of stuff out there they can fool themselves and others by thinking that by expanding the size of their notebooks, they expand their skill.Are you sure that those that go to Japan are always bettering themselves and improving? Are all of them great practitioners?


This is a wide ranging topic and one that I frequently think about. We have to do our best to get better. If we can't get to Hatsumi, we need to get to someone better than us in his art. We need to cut down to what we know, instead of what we can get off the internet and videos. In short, we need to be good at a few things instead of lousy at a lot.Who did Takamatsu Sensei learn from in his later years? Many people suggest that mastery is just a label when referring to the Bujinkan, but Takamatsu Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei are both held with high esteem. They are often viewed as masters, though Hatsumi Sensei has stated that he is not. And yet he improved, by his own measure, without the availability of Takamatsu Sensei. How is this kind of self-discovery possible without someone of higher rank and skill? How did Takamatsu Sensei compare to his teachers?

If we go down the pipeline of legacy, what corrections would be made to Hatsumi Sensei's form? What would the ancestors of the art have to say about all of us? Hatsumi Sensei has never tested himself on the battlefield. He's never had to slit someone's throat. He's never faced a trained Samurai with intent to kill and the ability to do it. He walks his dogs for several hours every day and he wows us with his level of skill, but at his prime, would he have survived the ultimate test? How can we possibly answer that?

[Dale Seago]

I'm with Don on these points.

I can't afford to live in Japan, and frankly wouldn't want to -- it would drive me buggy, as a man can't even possess a proper dirk to wear with his kilt there.

But I do go and train in Japan, and when I'm there I don't just train with Soke: I make a point of always training with two of the shihan in particular, and occasionally others as well.

And in the time between trips, I go and train with others who also go to Japan. It's the next-best thing to living there.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

For those of us that are willing to move to train with someone that has a direct and active connection to Japan, does this completely eliminate controversy? What about practitioners that actively go to Japan and train regularly, but are viewed with some level of skepticism by other practitioners?
a) I'm not sure about what you're getting at and b) if you don't like someone's particular style of taijutsu, or don't think he's worth training with - don't train with him.


Is it also possible that what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching is riddled with mistakes if looked at from a certain perspective? We are a much different people, the Japanese included, than the founders of our art.
He's Soke now, he decides what is and isn't a mistake.


We dress it up as a survival art, but if you look closely at what we do, much of it is for causing pain, injury, and death. And yet we practice all of this with a completely different mindset then that of Ancient Japan.
Yes, most of us.


Though we may train for survival, we certainly don't need it to survive. How would one of the founders of the various Ryu view our interpretation? Is it not a corruption of a sort?
They would probably be rotating in their graves if they knew about some of the crackpots the Bujinkan has had its share of...also, better to have and not need than to need and not have.


Has the evolution of the art been entirely for the better? Judging by the videos, Takamatsu Sensei moves differently than Hatsumi Sensei. Is it possible that Hatsumi Sensei has forgotten something or that his interpretation of something is different than that of his teacher?
That his interpretation is different - probably. I haven't seen so much of Takamatsu sensei in action that I feel I can comment on the issue with certainty, I do however know that Hatsumi sensei himself has said he will never be as skilled as Takamatsu.
Which Takamatsu sensei would probably say about Ishitani, Mizuta and Toda as well...and on and on and on...

Also, I have a little theory that the behaviour of Hatsumi sensei's uke has at least a little bit to do with the responses generated on his part...the same is also true everywhere else. Don't think that the authority of a particular tori doesn't affect uke's behaviour...


Who's basics exactly? Even for those that train in Japan regularly, there seems to be a divergence on this point.
I'm with you on this point for the most part, however, one needs to keep in mind that there is a difference between basics as they're ment to be applied and basics whose main purpose is to create attributes.


here have so far been a number of divergences from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi Sensei by some high level practitioners. Not all of them have left the Bujinkan itself. Currently, as viewed by the community, and with a significant level of caution, there are members ranked as Judan and above that seem to share a philosophy and approach to the Bujinkan that is radically different than the majority's interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's teachings.
Though I don't agree with all of the opinions of the people I believe you are referring to, with Hatsumi sensei's artistic spirit, I can't say I'm all that surprised.


Aren't there exceptions to the rule? I know of a few practitioners that no longer have a valid link to Japan. Some have produced students solidly grounded in the "basics" and some of these students have gone to Japan with a foundation that is sometimes viewed as greater than that of those that visit Japan once or twice a year.
I think this is mostly an issue of how the former choose to train. I'll never tire of saying this - you CANNOT gain proficiency equal to that of any of the Japanese shihan if you only train the way they do nowadays. They're old men for crying out loud, no wonder they're taking it easy!


Are you sure that those that go to Japan are always bettering themselves and improving? Are all of them great practitioners?
I think this has been overlooked a bit, but going to Japan to train should probably been put into a perspective overlooking how they usually train.


Who did Takamatsu Sensei learn from in his later years?
It's funny, because this was brought up after yesterday's training at our place. Have you ever wondered if Hatsumi sensei is actually teaching as much as he is training himself?


They are often viewed as masters, though Hatsumi Sensei has stated that he is not.
"Anyone who says he's a Zen master/Mafioso isn't." :ultracool


If we go down the pipeline of legacy, what corrections would be made to Hatsumi Sensei's form? What would the ancestors of the art have to say about all of us? Hatsumi Sensei has never tested himself on the battlefield. He's never had to slit someone's throat. He's never faced a trained Samurai with intent to kill and the ability to do it. He walks his dogs for several hours every day and he wow's us with his level of skill, but at his prime, would he have survived the ultimate test?
He has however been known to tell people at Taikai and such that they were free to attack him with whatever they could throw at him even off the mat.

[Floating Egg]

a) I'm not sure about what you're getting at and b) if you don't like someone's particular style of taijutsu, or don't think he's worth training with - don't train with him.I was addressing Don's point that we should either train in Japan or under someone who does. If a student is training under someone that does visit Japan regularly, but teaches in a certain way that is detrimental to the student, the result is just as unsatisfactory as training with someone that does not visit Japan regularly.


He's Soke now, he decides what is and isn't a mistake.I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Sensei's relationship with the art grants him omnipotence?


They would probably be rotating in their graves if they knew about some of the crackpots the Bujinkan has had its share of...also, better to have and not need than to need and not have.Yes, but it indicates something very specific about how we train, and how it has changed over the centuries. We're a fat decadent people now.


That his interpretation is different - probably. I haven't seen so much of Takamatsu sensei in action that I feel I can comment on the issue with certainty, I do however know that Hatsumi sensei himself has said he will never be as skilled as Takamatsu.
Which Takamatsu sensei would probably say about Ishitani, Mizuta and Toda as well...and on and on and on...

Also, I have a little theory that the behaviour of Hatsumi sensei's uke has at least a little bit to do with the responses generated on his part...the same is also true everywhere else. Don't think that the authority of a particular tori doesn't affect uke's behaviour...If taken literally, we will never be as good as Hatsumi Sensei, and those that come after will never be as good as us. How then does one make the journey?


I'm with you on this point for the most part, however, one needs to keep in mind that there is a difference between basics as they're ment to be applied and basics whose main purpose is to create attributes.I think I know what you mean, but could you elaborate?


Though I don't agree with all of the opinions of the people I believe you are referring to, with Hatsumi sensei's artistic spirit, I can't say I'm all that surprised.Does lack of surprise mean acceptance in this case?


I think this is mostly an issue of how the former choose to train. I'll never tire of saying this - you CANNOT gain proficiency equal to that of any of the Japanese shihan if you only train the way they do nowadays. They're old men for crying out loud, no wonder they're taking it easy!What can you gain? How should one train? My understanding is that there's a great deal of variance as far as early training is concerned.


I think this has been overlooked a bit, but going to Japan to train should probably been put into a perspective overlooking how they usually train.How do you mean?


It's funny, because this was brought up after yesterday's training at our place. Have you ever wondered if Hatsumi sensei is actually teaching as much as he is training himself?No, I never thought about it before.


"Anyone who says he's a Zen master/Mafioso isn't."What about treating someone as if they're a master?


He has however been known to tell people at Taikai and such that they were free to attack him with whatever they could throw at him even off the mat.Yes, I've noticed this in other Martial Arts as well. I'm not sure what it justifies.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was addressing Don's point that we should either train in Japan or under someone who does. If a student is training under someone that does visit Japan regularly, but teaches in a certain way that is detrimental to the student, the result is just as unsatisfactory as training with someone that does not visit Japan regularly.
And sometimes, possibly even worse.


I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Sensei's relationship with the art grants him omnipotence?
As far as you and I are concerned, yes. Or do you think we know better than him?


Yes, but it indicates something very specific about how we train, and how it has changed over the centuries. We're a fat decadent people now.
Speak for yourself. :2xBird2:


If taken literally, we will never be as good as Hatsumi Sensei, and those that come after will never be as good as us. How then does one make the journey?
Making the best of the situation and training your a** off I suggest. It's what people have been doing so far.


I think I know what you mean, but could you elaborate?
Let's say you're doing a musha dori or related technique. Most of the time, what you're doing is training to understand the basic principles of what is required to make the move work - breaking the balance, moving your feet, twisting your hips, bending your knees etc etc. This means that all such motions are overdone in order to teach them to your body, but that is not necessarily the way it will look like when you've gained enough proficiency. Same thing with the step-through punch; we start out at a distance in order to have time to learn how to shift the weight and when to put the foot down and so forth. Once you have all your hip/spine twisting and all the other goodies in place, you don't need to exaggerate the movement as much in order to hit with all of your bodyweight.


Does lack of surprise mean acceptance in this case?
No, but there isn't very much I can do about it either.


What can you gain? How should one train? My understanding is that there's a great deal of variance as far as early training is concerned.
Indeed there is.


How do you mean?
See above. It's been said time and again that what Hatsumi sensei is teaching isn't in any way "finished" technically speaking. By the time you delve deeper into the abstract things he focuses on, you should already know a substantial part of the repertoire of throws, chokes, locks and so forth - otherwise you won't have any experience with which to elaborate on what he's been showing and making it work for YOU (this, of course, applies mainly to people of fifth dan and up - lesser mortals like myself are better off to just shut up and train for the time being).


No, I never thought about it before.
Bingo. What do you think he means when he says we have to "steal" knowledge?


What about treating someone as if they're a master?
I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, as I have a real problem with authorities who think they have to point out themselves as such...


Yes, I've noticed this in other Martial Arts as well. I'm not sure what it justifies.
That if you are uncertain about Hatsumi sensei's ability to fend for himself, go to Japan and have at him.

[Floating Egg]

And sometimes, possibly even worse.I guess this is where awareness, even in the dojo, comes into play.


As far as you and I are concerned, yes. Or do you think we know better than him?No, but I think it means that we can and should question him. I believe he advocates skepticism.


Speak for yourself.Ha, ha. The few, the proud. :D


Making the best of the situation and training your a** off I suggest. It's what people have been doing so far.It's almost necessary to create a vacuum in which we can train without all of the antagonism, politics, and negativity that seems to pervade every organization.


Let's say you're doing a musha dori or related technique. Most of the time, what you're doing is training to understand the basic principles of what is required to make the move work - breaking the balance, moving your feet, twisting your hips, bending your knees etc etc. This means that all such motions are overdone in order to teach them to your body, but that is not necessarily the way it will look like when you've gained enough proficiency. Same thing with the step-through punch; we start out at a distance in order to have time to learn how to shift the weight and when to put the foot down and so forth. Once you have all your hip/spine twisting and all the other goodies in place, you don't need to exaggerate the movement as much in order to hit with all of your bodyweight.Nice explanation.


No, but there isn't very much I can do about it either.And yet we discuss it. Go figure.


Indeed there is....


See above. It's been said time and again that what Hatsumi sensei is teaching isn't in any way "finished" technically speaking. By the time you delve deeper into the abstract things he focuses on, you should already know a substantial part of the repertoire of throws, chokes, locks and so forth - otherwise you won't have any experience with which to elaborate on what he's been showing and making it work for YOU (this, of course, applies mainly to people of fifth dan and up - lesser mortals like myself are better off to just shut up and train for the time being).If only we started training when we were seven.


Bingo. What do you think he means when he says we have to "steal" knowledge?You have a point.


I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, as I have a real problem with authorities who think they have to point out themselves as such...And the same goes for pointing out others? I guess I'm refering to the cult of personality.


That if you are uncertain about Hatsumi sensei's ability to fend for himself, go to Japan and have at him.That would be a boastful enterprise indeed. I wasn't trying to illustrate my doubt of his abilities, but I also have no frame of reference when discussing combat of a form that no longer exists, hence the battlefield analogy.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I guess this is where awareness, even in the dojo, comes into play.I'd say the most important thing is to train with everyone at least once. It's the only way to tell if your current instructor sucks.


No, but I think it means that we can and should question him. I believe he advocates skepticism.Absolutely, but then again, you cannot be totally sure about what it is he wants to point out whenever he demonstrates something.


It's almost necessary to create a vacuum in which we can train without all of the antagonism, politics, and negativity that seems to pervade every organization.Sometimes I think we would be better off if everyone could agree on a certain level of (hard) contact. Much would be won if we could all just decide from the beginning to train hard, that would for instance solve the issue of people who seem to think "if you hit me hard I'll hit you harder".


If only we started training when we were seven.I was about nine, does that count? Truth be told, it hasn't helped much.


And the same goes for poing out others? I'm guess I'm refering to the cult of personality.There's one thing all the people within the Bujinkan I admire have in common - they lead by example.


That would be a boastful enterprise indeed. I wasn't trying to illustrate my doubt of his abilities, but I also have no frame of reference when discussing combat of a form that no longer exists, hence the battlefield analogy.Read somewhere that someone once asked Someya sensei how one could be sure that cutting through a rolled tatami mat was equivalent to cutting through a human neck.
His response was "I have no reason to doubt that information".

[Floating Egg]

Read somewhere that someone once asked Someya sensei how one could be sure that cutting through a rolled tatami mat was equivalent to cutting through a human neck.
His response was "I have no reason to doubt that information".
Touché. I think you've done a good job of answering all of questions.

[Shogun]

I can show you kenjutsu videos for sale by people like Steven Hayes who just do not seem to even know how to cut with one.
I'm probably gonna get eaten for this, but IMO the way i've seen (most) of the Bujinkan guys handle Kenjutsu is a joke. I know there are really good people out there (thats what I here) but the advancement in the art is way to fast. i've seen classes conducted in and out of the schools I attend where they are seemingly learning kamae and cut patterns within a few short classes! this is impossible. I first delved into Kenjutsu from my Aiki no Michi teacher (reverend K. Barrish). I spent about 20, 2 hour classes perfecting the basic grip, and I still have work to do. the idea of "moving on" after only a few classes in the subject makes it so it seems pointless to introduce it in the first place. maybe its because there is so much to cover. maybe not. (we only have 9 basic cuts, and a few kata in Aiki).
This is just my opinion. I have not seen every class or teacher (far from) so I dont know how everyone does it, this is based on what I've seen.

[Don Roley]

I'm probably gonna get eaten for this, but IMO the way i've seen (most) of the Bujinkan guys handle Kenjutsu is a joke.

No argument here!

The problem is that many people skipped the learning phase of sword before moving into teaching it. Luke is good with a sword, good at a lot of things. What he did not learn over a period of time in progresive steps he does not teach!

It is not just swords or "Tamayoke" Molitor. You talk about things like the san shin or Gyokko ryu, etc and the result is the same. People's approach to this art is hit and miss in the way they learned things. People with terrible san shin are advertising seminars in Koto ryu, etc.

So, considering the fact that perhaps the best thing to improve kenjutsu in the Bujinkan is to get people to go to instructors like Tamayoke Molitor, how is anything I post here on kenjutsu, etc going to help people. As far as I am concerned, if you have not gone through the type of stuff that he has and teaches, you should just put aside your bokken until you can. Thats it, just stop training and teaching kenjutsu until you get real instruction from a teacher of a claiber like Tamayoke.

Everything I could post here would just be a distraction.

[Don Roley]

Just got off the phone with someone and thought of this thread. I would like to toss something out for discussion.

The guy I talked to was saying that I should put out more good information to counter the bad stuff that is so common out there. In particular, we were carping about the 'ninja as oppressed religious minority' story that the latest DVD seems to push.

But instead of putting stuff out there for free, I should do something proffesionally.

People do tend to take stuff they pay for more seriously than things they can get for free. And I think that people should not be paying much attention to a lot of stuff they get on the internet anyways. This guys point was that if I charged something for what I write, people would take it more seriously and I might be better able to get the good stuff out there.

I don't know. What do you guys think? I am interested less in the money (pennies probably) than in the idea of being able to write something deep and meaningfull and then controlling who I sold it to so as to not have to worry about Koga ryu frauds using the information later on.

There are a lot of options. I could easily use the stuff on my computer to come out with some pretty proffesional materials on an as needed basis. And that would just be by myself. Working with others I could do more.

So, again, what do you guys think?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Don,

I think that is a great idea! Your forte so to speak is in the
history area, so you should write a book! If you need any
ideas let me know I just finished writing my first book as
well and it is a big project when done right! Do not do it
if you are not whole heartedly behind it. That would be
my biggest advice. Hopefully you will write something, I
would love to read it.

Brian R. VanCise

[Kizaru]

The guy I talked to was saying that I should put out more good information ....But instead of putting stuff out there for free, I should do something proffesionally.?

Nothing wrong with putting out good information.


I don't know. What do you guys think? I am interested less in the money (pennies probably) than in the idea of being able to write something deep and meaningfull and then controlling who I sold it to so as to not have to worry about Koga ryu frauds using the information later on.

Why control who you sell it to? Why not just do some good work and make it available for sale to everyone?

[Don Roley]

Why control who you sell it to? Why not just do some good work and make it available for sale to everyone?

Because I am a little tired of seeing fruads knowingly twist what I write to make themselves look good and attack the Bujinkan. If I had a dime for every time some fraud said, 'but even Don Roley said...' followed by a very liberal interpetation of what I said I could retire rich right now.

You think I am being silly about just how much some guys will twist words and use them to attack others? One word- SOJOBOW!

Among other ideas, I have been thinking that if I came out with the huge work on ninjutsu history some people have been encouraging me to write I could do it up on the computer and print out copies for individuals. Since profit is not a motive, I could do it for less than most people could photo- copy it and sell it at that price. So if I said I would only sell it to people who were reccomended by prior buyers to me, I could keep a matter of control over who gets it. It would be less for people to get it from me than to photocopy it if I thought they were honorable.

Then I could do a work that assumes no prior knowledge about Japanese history and build up from there with as complete a knowledge as I could. I could talk about all aspects without fear of a Sojobow, a Carlos Febres or a Steve McGovern trying to copy the story or use it to attack the Bujinkan.

[Deaf]

Don,

I can understand your hestitation in regards to sharing information and I think your idea of publishing your work to only a selected individuals is a good one.

It is actually a bit sad that things have come to be this way though. But if my little bit of history is correct... many of the arts within the Bujinkan were "closed" to only those selected to train within the ryuha. So in essence, I guess you could say we are going back to our roots! :)

If you do decide to publish some of you work, please let me know since I am and will definitely be interested.

~Deaf~

[Satt]

Well, Don, just let us know when we can put in our pre-orders. :-partyon:

[heretic888]

So, again, what do you guys think?

Don,

I, for one, would be very interested in such a project.

Laterz.

[Floating Egg]

I'm interested.

[Kreth]

I find it interesting that given Don's stand, none of the 4 of you who have expressed interest have a real name listed in your profiles...:idunno:

[Deaf]

Actually, I never thought of filling out my profile to be honest. Just signed up and went along etc. However I do not have anything to hide if that is what is being assumed.

Michael Goddard
Dayton Ohio

aka

Deaf

(Edit --- Actually I did fill out my profile however what I didn't realize is that there are two places to place your name within the profile. The first one being private and the second one being public display. An honest mistake which I didn't realize)

[Kreth]

Deaf, I knew who you were from other forums, and I know who heretic is as well. It just seemed amusing to me giving Don's stance on the subject.

[stephen]

Don,

Sounds like a great idea. For the controlling the sales, just sell it in Japan. If you're the sort of person who 'can't go' then you can get it from someone you train with who does. Somewhere done the line someone will have a connection to Japan if they are committed.

[Jonathan Randall]

Just got off the phone with someone and thought of this thread. I would like to toss something out for discussion.

The guy I talked to was saying that I should put out more good information to counter the bad stuff that is so common out there. In particular, we were carping about the 'ninja as oppressed religious minority' story that the latest DVD seems to push.

But instead of putting stuff out there for free, I should do something proffesionally.

People do tend to take stuff they pay for more seriously than things they can get for free. And I think that people should not be paying much attention to a lot of stuff they get on the internet anyways. This guys point was that if I charged something for what I write, people would take it more seriously and I might be better able to get the good stuff out there.

I don't know. What do you guys think? I am interested less in the money (pennies probably) than in the idea of being able to write something deep and meaningfull and then controlling who I sold it to so as to not have to worry about Koga ryu frauds using the information later on.

There are a lot of options. I could easily use the stuff on my computer to come out with some pretty proffesional materials on an as needed basis. And that would just be by myself. Working with others I could do more.

So, again, what do you guys think?

There will ALWAYS be people out there who will abuse ANYTHING. If you do the work, and I am including the years necessary to have aquired the expertise to do so, than you deserve to be payed for it. There is enough out there via books and DVD for the aspiring fraud to lead the gullible with, anyway. Just throw in some hints on how to find an authentic teacher so that those who do read it will know what to be wary of. Believe me, limiting it in distribution will NOT keep it out of the wrong hands in the long run - so why not make some well earned money?

[Kizaru]

There will ALWAYS be people out there who will abuse ANYTHING. ..Just throw in some hints on how to find an authentic teacher..... Believe me, limiting it in distribution will NOT keep it out of the wrong hands in the long run - so why not make some well earned money?

Some really excellent points! Thank you for your input!!!

[Floating Egg]

I find it interesting that given Don's stand, none of the 4 of you who have expressed interest have a real name listed in your profiles...

There's something to be said for anonymity on the Internet. If Don implements a policy requiring validation of Bujinkan membership to gain access to his materials, I will share my personal information.

[Don Roley]

There's something to be said for anonymity on the Internet. If Don implements a policy requiring validation of Bujinkan membership to gain access to his materials, I will share my personal information.

And really, it is not important that the entire world know who you are- just that I know who you are. And even without knowing some names, I feel I know the type of person some of you are. So far, not a dishonarable person or egomaniacal empire builder in the people who have responded so far based on your posting histories.

[Henso]

Gentlemen,

I am of the opinion that there is more than enough information for the frauds, if they have the industry to do so, to concoct whatever they desire. I put it to you, however, that most will not be willing to invest the time required to be convincing, if currently secret information is more widely available.

Think for instance of the information put out by Quest, vis-a-vis the details of the various Bujinkan Ryuha. Once in becomes known to those who are interested that a certain waza, kamae, etc, is specific to a particular ryu, it becomes more difficult for charltans to duplicate them, claiming that they originated from some other unrelated ryu.

If you have something interesting to say, please say it, Hatsumi Sensei certain does, and even as all the inconsequential frauds fade into irrelevance, Hatsumi Sensei's mystique endures.

P.S. I just returned from the Daikomyosai, and I can only describe his abilities a being simply sublime!

[Dale Seago]

P.S. I just returned from the Daikomyosai, and I can only describe his abilities a being simply sublime!

So did I. I'd say you have a gift for understatement. . .

[Henso]

And you for masking surprise, Dale. I was present at the Hombu when you were promoted last week-congratulations to you.

[Dale Seago]

And you for masking surprise, Dale. I was present at the Hombu when you were promoted last week-congratulations to you.

Hee! Thanks, I don't know how well "masked" it was, but I felt poleaxed. When Soke called for me I'd just finished squirming through the crowd to get a bottle of tea from my pack, and I thought "Crap, we're starting again and he wants me to show something." Then I finally get back to the other end of the dojo and he's waiting with the menkyo.

To give you an idea of my mental state, at Saizeriya afterward I had to ask someone at what point during Soke's class this had occurred, because I couldn't remember. . .

[MJS]

Hee! Thanks, I don't know how well "masked" it was, but I felt poleaxed. When Soke called for me I'd just finished squirming through the crowd to get a bottle of tea from my pack, and I thought "Crap, we're starting again and he wants me to show something." Then I finally get back to the other end of the dojo and he's waiting with the menkyo.

To give you an idea of my mental state, at Saizeriya afterward I had to ask someone at what point during Soke's class this had occurred, because I couldn't remember. . .

Congrats Dale!!:asian:

Mike

[Don Roley]

I have been giving serious thought about writing something since I last posted in this thread. I even have notes, outlines, etc.

But I am thinking of putting together something on my own rather than go to a publisher. The big problem with doing so is binding the finished product. Can anyone help me, either here or by PM?

[bencole]

I have been giving serious thought about writing something since I last posted in this thread. I even have notes, outlines, etc.

But I am thinking of putting together something on my own rather than go to a publisher. The big problem with doing so is binding the finished product. Can anyone help me, either here or by PM?

I would be happy to help you, Don. Just let me know.

-ben

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Don,

One of the aspects that I have gone with my company Instinctive Response Training LLC is to create my own DVD/publishing company. I bound my book Advanced Wrist Strike Technique in a beautiful hardbound cover. If you need any help just email or call and I will be happy to share some secrets.

I'm sure Ben is also a wealth of information here as well. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

By the way I think it would be great if you wrote a book! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[bydand]

Wow, what a great resource. Good luck with your venture into this area Don.

[Don Roley]

I have gotten a few PMs. It looks expensive to bind things. I do not want to make this an expensive project. One of my goals is to put this thing out for less than it would cost to photocopy. That way people would be less willing to make copies and instead send other to me and give me a say in who gets this stuff and who does not.

Thanks for those that have helped.

[bydand]

How big are you talking in regards to number of pages? Have you considered either spiral or plastic combs. I personally like that style better because they lay flat when you are reading them and should be far less expensive than conventional bindings. I have a few books like this and as long as the cover art is well done and the paper stock is heavy enough it comes out looking just as professional as the other types of book binding.

[Don Roley]

Have you considered either spiral or plastic combs. I personally like that style better because they lay flat when you are reading them and should be far less expensive than conventional bindings.

That is what I was hoping for. Someone once gave me a manual of their dojo when they were in Japan and it was bound that way. It looks cheap, and good enough for what I am thinking of putting out. But I don't think any of the advice that has been sent me regards that type of binding.

And I can't even think of what terms to use in a yahoo/google search.

[Jonathan Randall]

I have been giving serious thought about writing something since I last posted in this thread. I even have notes, outlines, etc.

But I am thinking of putting together something on my own rather than go to a publisher. The big problem with doing so is binding the finished product. Can anyone help me, either here or by PM?

Yes, you can (with some practice) bind them yourself. Binding machines cost about $350.00 here in the States, Sacramento, CA, in particular, for a decent one. Below this price the equipment is only for occasional and less-professional work. Next, buy a high capacity Laser printer that has (relatively) inexpensive toner cartridges and at least 600x1200 or 1200x1200 d.p.i., print the cover front with a high quality color inkjet (about $200-$250) and add an insert page done with the color inkjet to have illustrations (both sides, if possible for the colour plates - saves cost of the paper). Also, by including some colour work, you will make these alone worth the price of admission.

My former portrait art teacher binds his own books for about, IIRC, $1.50 to $2.50 a piece and sells them for $29.50. He makes more publishing himself (and selling copies at his workshops) than he did when these books were carried by a national publishing company and sold in bookstores and through art book clubs throughout the U.S.

http://www.officezone.com/bind2.htm

http://www.factory-express.com/Binding_Machines/binding_machines.html

http://www.factory-express.com/Binding_Machines/PlasticCombBinders/GBC-C250/gbc-combbind-c250.html?source=C300

[Don Roley]

Does anyone know how much those machines weigh? I will be in America later this year. If one of the models were less than my check in luggage allowance, I could get one sent to someone and bring it back with me.

Some of them look like I could put together a 200 page (double sided?) book. If I could get out a book that size and break even at about 25 dollars a book, that would be ideal. I have a scanner/printer/copier all ready to set up. My wife is an illustrator and I have never been at a loss for things to write down.

[bydand]

I don't know which machine you are looking at, but on the web sites that are business' I add one to my cart then figure shipping costs. Usually it gives you what the weight of the package is when it gives you the shipping costs. If I remember right the manual punches are between 20 and 30 Lbs, but as the saying goes, "your milage may vary."

[Brian R. VanCise]

Does anyone know how much those machines weigh? I will be in America later this year. If one of the models were less than my check in luggage allowance, I could get one sent to someone and bring it back with me.

Some of them look like I could put together a 200 page (double sided?) book. If I could get out a book that size and break even at about 25 dollars a book, that would be ideal. I have a scanner/printer/copier all ready to set up. My wife is an illustrator and I have never been at a loss for things to write down.

Don the real price for binding lies in the ink spent. Really when I bound my last book the hardcover books and the machine were pretty cheap in comparison to the laser print ink. Having said that you can definatley make more and have more control doing it yourself than going to an editor. (as you are the editor, publisher, printer, etc)

A good friend of mine Dan Anderson also binds his books and is thrilled doing it this way rather than going through a publisher which he did in the past.

I hope that you do publish something as the Bujinkan needs more people publishing, particularly in the historical area.

[saru1968]

And I can't even think of what terms to use in a yahoo/google search.

http://www.idealb2b.co.uk/Shop/section.php?xSec=65&xPage=14

A4 manual binding machine

You can get them for alot cheaper and lighter but the lighter and cheaper they get the robustness of the machine and quality goes down.

[Kreth]

I hope that you do publish something as the Bujinkan needs more people publishing, particularly in the historical area.
As long as we don't see the info next year in some Koga Kiddies' training manual.

[Brian R. VanCise]

As long as we don't see the info next year in some Koga Kiddies' training manual.

Well that would be sad. Fortunately most of them are not to smart. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[bencole]

As long as we don't see the info next year in some Koga Kiddies' training manual.

This is precisely why putting together some laserprinted, ring-bound thing only available via email from Don Roley is such a *BAD* idea, imo.

If you are going to go through all the trouble to write the darn thing, do it right, Don. Don't reason your way out of doing justice to your hard work, by selling some slapped together manual.

Something like that will *NEVER* get respect, which would be a shame in my opinion.

You need an ISBN number. You need it to be bound, either paperback or hard cover. You need it to *LOOK NICE* and *FEEL NICE,* not look like it was slapped together in the corner of your bedroom on Monday night when the email arrived. You want the book in the Library of Congress!!!

I honestly do not care if you avail yourself of Brian or me in the process. Just do it right, PLEASE!!!

It would be a tremendous disservice to your hard work to do otherwise.

If you want people to reference the material on a regular basis, you need to make something that people (1) can look at frequently (and it not get worn), (2) can actually *FIND* a copy (without having to know Don Roley's personal email address, and (3) actually believe that you care enough about your hard work to not make it look like something made at Kinko's for a high school project.

There are lots of options, Don. Please, please forget the idea of lugging some hole-punching machine to Japan so you can slap things together on Monday nights.

Just do it right, or more than just me will be severely disappointed. You know my email address.

-ben

[jks9199]

Another idea to consider is self-publishing it as an electronic book on CD. That way -- you don't have any issues with bindings. It's up to the guy who prints it for himself.

The only catch I can see is that issue of printing multiple copies... But the guy who prints a dozen copies off your CD is the same guy who's going to take your book into Kinkos and run a dozen copies off. (Or, even more likely, do it at his job on the office copier when he's supposed to be working...)

[Cryozombie]

Don,

That link I pmed you does ring binding like that... if you decide thats the route you wanna go...

[Don Roley]

As long as we don't see the info next year in some Koga Kiddies' training manual.

That is a concern. And I am of two minds on the subject.

On one side is trying to keep the knowledge to just those that can be trusted with it.

The problem with that is that I just dealt with a case of someone being talked about over at e-budo. This woman claims to be a member of a Koga ryu honbu dojo in Tokyo- which of course does not seem to exist and she is not willing to give an address. :rolleyes:

One of her defenders tried to say that years ago she revealed information about the ninja that no other Koga ryu practicioner knew and tried to put forward that as proof that she had some real instruction. Of course, I quickly pointed out that if noone else had heard of it, there was a real chance that she just made it up.

But what if someone like her got her hands on my book and revealed it to certain Bujinkan members to 'prove' to them that she was from a related tradition? The Bujinkan members would know that the knowledge was supposed to be not common knowledge and think she got it from some Koga ryu master.

Oh and then there is the matter that we confirmed that she had a modest rank in Toshindo and also claimed to be a Bujinkan member at one point. So if I try to keep this to just Bujinkan members, I do not doubt that someone wanting to set themselves up as a Koga ryu master like her would get the book before doing so.

Maybe I should just give up the idea of trying to keep this all a secret. I am still in debate with myself.

[Rook]

That is a concern. And I am of two minds on the subject.

On one side is trying to keep the knowledge to just those that can be trusted with it.

The problem with that is that I just dealt with a case of someone being talked about over at e-budo. This woman claims to be a member of a Koga ryu honbu dojo in Tokyo- which of course does not seem to exist and she is not willing to give an address. :rolleyes:

One of her defenders tried to say that years ago she revealed information about the ninja that no other Koga ryu practicioner knew and tried to put forward that as proof that she had some real instruction. Of course, I quickly pointed out that if noone else had heard of it, there was a real chance that she just made it up.

But what if someone like her got her hands on my book and revealed it to certain Bujinkan members to 'prove' to them that she was from a related tradition? The Bujinkan members would know that the knowledge was supposed to be not common knowledge and think she got it from some Koga ryu master.

Oh and then there is the matter that we confirmed that she had a modest rank in Toshindo and also claimed to be a Bujinkan member at one point. So if I try to keep this to just Bujinkan members, I do not doubt that someone wanting to set themselves up as a Koga ryu master like her would get the book before doing so.

Maybe I should just give up the idea of trying to keep this all a secret. I am still in debate with myself.

Someone wanting to set up a fraudulent organization wouldn't need to know anything about any tradition - 30 years of Ashida Kim confirms that pretty well.

The people frauds want credibility from first is going to be their prospective students... the more people have the resources to "out" them as frauds sooner, the better chance there is of nipping the neo-ninja empires in the bud.

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference. There are few fake judo schools, free style wrestling schools etc. precisely because it is easy to get information on them, which allows normal people to check the validity of what they are being taught.

[bencole]

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference. There are few fake judo schools, free style wrestling schools etc. precisely because it is easy to get information on them, which allows normal people to check the validity of what they are being taught.

I agree. Don Roley cannot personally quash every neo-ninja in every venue on earth. He may try, but he must limit his reach to a few boards online. Don Roley is human and has a family with whom he enjoys spending time. ;)

The words of Don Roley, available in a citable book that is available for purchase by people in small town America, will do more to reduce the influence of these jokers than Don Roley's occasional rant on the subject on Martial Talk or Kutaki no Mura. No offense to these venues, of course.

That is the beauty of citable research--people can *CITE* it, rather than point people to random conversations on impermanent bulletin boards.

Don Roley's book should be in libraries.

-ben

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am in agreement with Ben that Don should write some books. Particularly since I love to read about martial arts. Give it a try
Don! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[jks9199]

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference. There are few fake judo schools, free style wrestling schools etc. precisely because it is easy to get information on them, which allows normal people to check the validity of what they are being taught.


I agree. Don Roley cannot personally quash every neo-ninja in every venue on earth. He may try, but he must limit his reach to a few boards online.
...

That is the beauty of citable research--people can *CITE* it, rather than point people to random conversations on impermanent bulletin boards.


I think these are good points; there's a lot of questionable info out there about the Bujinkan (and for that matter, the other x-kans). The more solid information that gets out, in a credible manner, the more people will be able to identify the frauds -- or at least be able to be a knowledgable consumer.

If you're concerned about it -- restrict the sale to certain channels. But even then, you can't rely on it. I've seen material from The Manual of the Bando Discipline, which is a private publication only sold through the ABA, on the internet. There's always someone out there who thinks they know better or that they're special or just plain doesn't give a damn about the author's wishes...

Honestly, depending on the material, I'd love to read a book Don wrote. But, to me, if he chose to keep it as Bujinkan-only, that's his choice.

[bencole]

Honestly, depending on the material, I'd love to read a book Don wrote. But, to me, if he chose to keep it as Bujinkan-only, that's his choice.

Keeping it "Bujinkan only" will be impossible. People come and go all the time.

Undeserving people will get a hold of the book. Deserving people will get a hold of the book.

In the end, the more information that is out there, the better.

-ben

[jks9199]

Keeping it "Bujinkan only" will be impossible. People come and go all the time.

Undeserving people will get a hold of the book. Deserving people will get a hold of the book.

In the end, the more information that is out there, the better.

-ben

I would've sworn I said something like that... :wink:

Let me rephrase slightly. If it's Don's desire that the book be kept within the Bujinkan -- I will respect his wishes. I only wish everyone would...

[Don Roley]

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference.

I have always thought that the reason there were so many frauds in ninjutsu was because people actually seem to think that the excuse of secrecy is a valid one with ninjutsu. If anyone in Karate or Bando said they could not show you proof that they had a real teacher due to secrecy, they would be laughed out of the room. But the image of the ninja seems to attract people that will accept that the guy on the corner had a teacher, but just can't reveal it do to some sort of secret ninja war.

Anyways...

I have been exchanging e-mails and it looks like I will be putting out two works.

The first one will be geared towards Bujinkan members. It will have stuff about ninjutsu, but will also have stuff about the Kuki family and non- ninjutsu stuff like the Nyoibo. I hope that I can help people understand why we do certain things in the Bujinkan with this work. But I don't think it would get a very wide acceptence by the public at large since things like what a suigun is can't be justified in a book with a title about ninjutsu.

The other book will be done through one of the profesional book binders that has been reccomended by so many. This book will be about only ninjutsu and I will try to get it in the hands of as many of the general public as possible. I hope that maybe libraries might choose this book rather than ones by Ashida Kim when looking for books on ninjutsu. I will drop the stuff like the sharin from the Kukishinden ryu and replace it with a lot of stuff about Fujita Seiko and strategies/weapons/history from other traditions than those found in the Bujinkan.

I can get the first book done (after I talk to some people here in Japan for their advice and blessing) probably by this summer where I would pick up the book binding machine. Then I would make as many copies as needed as the orders come in. I would then start the other book using the stuff on ninjutsu from the first book as a base and adding to it. I need more time for the later book because (believe it or not) there are still some books here in Japan on ninjutsu I have not read.

What do people think?

[bydand]

I was just about to post the question if you had come to any conclusions yet. Right now I don't think you could wipe the smile off my face if you tried! Sounds like a great bit of news to all in the Bujinkan, (and offshoots as well.) Let me know the costs and dates as I would LOVE to add these to my library. As for the professionally bound book, I would get a couple of copies to donate to the local libraries here if I could swing it.

[paolo_italy]

hello from italy,

I think there is a big need of good books around the world.
speaking about my country, the situation is a disaster both outside and inside (mainly) the bujinkan.

the new frontier here seems: to be recognized as bujinkan (even with a super-dan) and then to teach your own stuff (worse than frauds).

I hope a few more good books will help people in opening the eyes.

In brief, I can't wait!! :uhyeah:

Bye,

Paolo

[Don Roley]

As for the professionally bound book, I would get a couple of copies to donate to the local libraries here if I could swing it.

They may not take it. There are a lot of issues involved. More likely your donated copies would be given to a book store they run to raise funds for the library.

And you do not have to wait for my book to come out- if it ever does. (Hell, I put things off like most people do.) S. Turnbull has a book out from Ospery that is decent. It is a little thin, but there are no errors in it.

My suggestion is for everyone to try to talk to their local librarian about the matter and suggest Turnbull's book for them to pick up. Since Turnbull is not part of our orginization, the librarians will be a lot less suspicous about getting the book. His credentials are well know and verifiable.

If we can get his book to be picked up instead of something from Ashida Kim we all can help out. If you want to make a difference, don't wait for me to do something- talk to your librarians this week.

[Rook]

I have always thought that the reason there were so many frauds in ninjutsu was because people actually seem to think that the excuse of secrecy is a valid one with ninjutsu. If anyone in Karate or Bando said they could not show you proof that they had a real teacher due to secrecy, they would be laughed out of the room. But the image of the ninja seems to attract people that will accept that the guy on the corner had a teacher, but just can't reveal it do to some sort of secret ninja war.

Most people who send their kids to the local karate, judo or wrestling schools don't know what lineage is, why it is important or how to verify one. Heck, wrestling doesn't even have a concept of lineage.

[Bigshadow]

Most people who send their kids to the local karate, judo or wrestling schools don't know what lineage is, why it is important or how to verify one. Heck, wrestling doesn't even have a concept of lineage.

I believe that those people initially start out doing that as a hobby and if it ever turns into a life path, then those issues will come up. But until then, I agree it probably wouldn't be important to the casual hobbiest.

[Shicomm]

In general in don't see any problems in sharing information on the web.
Not everything pops up straight away on google's first page so if you're seeking for something very specific you'll have to do some work ;)

The beauty of the network is in the fact that everybody is able to share, so why shouldnt we ?
There is indeed the thing of the frauds and wannabe's but they'll be around even with the least amount of public info available.

On the other hand ; maybe it is a good point to not just spoon feed the info.
Just give the basics and point in a direction of search ;)