Who here is backing up its striking art with grappling?

[Bushido]

Karate and judo ?
Muay Thai and bjj ?
Boxing and wrestling ?

I dont search trouble, FAR from that. But only if a fight happen, I want to be fully prepared. Personnaly, I backup my karate (main art) with bjj. I think that even if your striking is effective, it is essential to know ground work, you never know: you could slip, get hit, ect. It is not always easy to stop someone with strikes. :eek:

-Bushido

[Kempojujutsu]

It's part of Belt ranks. It is not separated from the main course. We teach one art (Kempojujutsu) which deals in all ranges including on the ground.
Bob:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Bushido

I think that even if your striking is effective, it is essential to know ground work, you never know: you could slip, get hit, ect. It is not always easy to stop someone with strikes.

I've added BJJ to my Modern Arnis. Since the BJJ instructor also teaches JKD I'm taking that too, but it was the BJJ I went for, not the JKD. Modern Arnis has standing grappling techniques--locks and takedowns--but doesn't really have groundwork. Since I believe the losing party in a fight is very likely to go to grappling with an attempt to down his opponent to regain an advantage, I thought it would be useful to have--and frankly I was curious about BJJ after all the hype.

[sweeper]

one thing I have noticed about some of my freinds who cross train in a grappaling art or have previous experience in such an art is some times they go for a hold or an armbar, or just position when they should be striking.. I don't know how you would get around that problem without including striking in your sparring.

[deadhand31]

My school's TKD training is backed up with hapkido, hosinsul, and backsudo. I feel it complements TKD very well, teaching to submit the opponent if they get in close. It also helps in confrontations when there are witnesses around, since hapkido and hosinsul tends not to be flashy.

[TangSooGuy]

Hapkido is integrated into our Tang Soo Do curriculum.

Learning to grapple and to deal with people who grapple rather than try to strike is an important part of self defense development in my opinion. I actually haven't seen schools around me which are for primarily striking arts that DON'T integrate some method of grappling as well....

[arnisador]

My BJJ instructor typically discusses both the self-defense ("now start hitting him") and sport ("this sets up the arm lock") aspects of techniques. We're often reminded that in some positions you should probably strike.

[bscastro]

We are studying some grappling as part of my instructor's JKD curriculum. Apart from being an important part of being well-rounded, it is also fun and a great workout.

As for striking while grappling, we sometimes do ground drills with headgear and bag gloves as well as a little sparring with some striking.

Bryan

[Blindside]

Let me make one thing clear, I DON'T like grappling, I don't enjoy it, it just isn't fun for me.

So anyway, I have about a year of BJJ and a bit of judo under my dingy white belt, I'm not terribly good at them, but they taught me ALOT. I am now comfortable at grappling range and am familiar with alot of wrestler and other grapplers initial attacks, I know enough not to fall for the easiest submissions, and I can usually reverse someone if they get a dominant position on me. And that is exactly what I wanted out of the grappling education that I got my ass kicked so many times to learn :D .

I do have a hard time integrating, but I've been working on just getting control positions and hammering with strikes, so far it is working out OK, I do need to get back into grappling, just to maintain those skills, as I don't get to test them enough in my kenpo school.

Just my experience,

Lamont

[sweeper]

I'm with you blindside, I hate grappling. I just have absolutly no natural ability or intuition with it, I'm the slowest grappling student you could imagine ;-). But I know enough where I could beat someone with absolutly no skill on the ground.

[cdhall]

At both schools I have attended there has been an awareness of grappling and both my teachers have studied grappling somewhat and have held grappling nights/workshops and/or seminars. There is no real groundfighting in EPAK.

However, currently one of our teachers is teaching grappling in his class. He has been to some BJJ schools and worked out with somme Greco-Roman guys and College Wrestlers. He has now taught about everything he knows. 2-3 escapes and counters. Some bridging and throws. Mounts, Guards and Side Mounts. 2-3 Armbars and Chokes. A few points about takedowns.

That is about all he has, but he says when he goes to a grappling school to "roll" with them, he does hold up OK, and this against guys who know what they are doing. So I'm not studying another art, but I want to concentrate on enough grappling to not panic or get taken out instantly when I hit the ground. I think I have seen enough and I go to this one class to work on it. I think this counts as "a little bit."
:)

[sumdumguy]

:rofl: I have to disagree! there are far many more things about ground fighting within the system of Kenpo then most probably realize. And likewise for the grappling arts to striking..... :asian:

[Bushido]

Hey guys, it is always good to see open-minded people like you that are conscient that if they are in a fight (unvolountarely), it might go to the ground. Of course, the goal is to stay keep it standing but, who knows what can happen?

It is extremely important to stay open to the different martial practices. Some people hide behind what they already know and are afraid to progress. Some others claim that their style will prevent them form going to the ground: THIS is the goal, staying on your feet, but on the streets you might "freeze" (witch is generally the case ;)), you might "slip", you might get hit and your ending down there: better know what to do. This is especially true for women.

Recently, some hard karate styles like Seidokaikan, Maki-Dojo, Byakurenkai adopted some grappling, there must be a reason.

Sometimes tradition can become a trap...

-Bushido

[cdhall]

I'm sorry. I'm confused. I'll restate my positions.

We have a lot of takedowns and follow up strikes.
We have a lot of joint attacks, sprains, hyperextensions and stuff either explicit or implicit in the system.
Encounter with Danger is the only technique I think I know where you attack/defend yourself from the ground, so we don' t have a lot of "groundfighting" that I have encountered.

I have decided that Snapping Twig works well when someone is on you in a mount. I mean, they Fall into your handsword...

I know we have some standup grappling in EPAK but I meant we don' t have anything that looks like College Wrestling, Greco-Roman Wrestling or BJJ really and I am currently supplimenting my Kenpo with just enough "groundfighting" from other "systems" to allow me to:
a) Not panic
b) work on an escape
c) avoid some easy/common "traps"
d) know how I could get it out if I can pull it off
e) get back up/escape if given a few of the common opportunities

Mr. Duffy has a good black belt who moved to CA and is now doing Machado Jiu-Jitsu. This guy says that a Black Belt in Kenpo and a Purple in Jiu-Jitsu are just about "it." I think he means that EPAK can use some additional JJ emphasis, but not a whole "systems worth." I agree so far. I hope I didn't totally misunderstand sumdumguy.
:asian:

[Rainman]

I know we have some standup grappling in EPAK

Does every technique = some?


I hope I didn't totally misunderstand sumdumguy.

I don't believe you did. I think you stated where you are at in your own personal evolution. My opinion is to have him down for a seminar. To see and feel what he does would be to remove the doubt. There are many discourses within our art- instead of going outside it why not find someone who already does it within it?

:D

[arnisador]

Originally posted by sumdumguy

I have to disagree! there are far many more things about ground fighting within the system of Kenpo then most probably realize.

Without commenting on this particular assertion, it seems to me that many arts are saying "Groundfighting! It's in there!" these days, and I am skeptical in most cases.

[Bushido]

I agree with you on that!

-bushido

[arnisador]

Originally posted by cdhall

This guy says that a Black Belt in Kenpo and a Purple in Jiu-Jitsu are just about "it." I think he means that EPAK can use some additional JJ emphasis, but not a whole "systems worth."

In BJJ it is common to have learned (essentially) the whole catalogue of techniques by blue belt (the first belt). The rest is largely about making them work, and usually a blue belt is pretty good, so a purple belt (the next one) would be even better. So, I'd figure this person meant he knew pretty much the whole system and had developed fair facility in using it.

[sweeper]

man blue belts in BJJ are pritty damn tough to fight on the ground..

even if you have groundfighting in your system sometimes it's good to go outside of the system to see how other people do it. I would be willing to bet alot of it is very simular or kinesiologicly speaking the same but applied in a diffrent way, it might help give you ideas and might be easyer than getting people to come in for seminars all the time.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Rainman



I don't believe you did. I think you stated where you are at in your own personal evolution. My opinion is to have him down for a seminar. To see and feel what he does would be to remove the doubt. There are many discourses within our art- instead of going outside it why not find someone who already does it within it?

:D

Yes, sir. I met this guy when my instructor had him in for a seminar. It was the plan to have the guy down twice a year or so and have him continue to work grappling with us. I like the fact that he is a Kenpo guy who has formally studied Jiu-Jitsu and this is an appeal. This same guys says it is really just "Kenpo on the ground." He seems to think there is a lot we can apply from what we alredy know. In a very similar situation, I have used some of what I know from EPAK while on the ground and the Concepts and Principles did apply. That was also encouraging to me.

Thank you.
:asian:

[big351stang]

if you alter your techniques you can apply most anything when you are on the ground. use your bloce and then turn it into a pin then strike. you dont have to take another art to get ground work in jsut take what you knwo and apply it to the ground it does work.

[Bushido]

Yeah but, dont forget escapes ans sweeps witch are THE most important techniques on the ground. It is not that easy on the ground, even if your opponent is having no martial art background.

-Bushido

[sumdumguy]

Originally posted by cdhall

[B]I'm sorry. I'm confused. I'll restate my positions.

We have a lot of takedowns and follow up strikes.
We have a lot of joint attacks, sprains, hyperextensions and stuff either explicit or implicit in the system.

Is it because your not executing these things on the ground that you believe that they don't apply?


Encounter with Danger is the only technique I think I know where you attack/defend yourself from the ground, so we don' t have a lot of "groundfighting" that I have encountered.

This is the only technique that lends itself to grappling? A choke is a choke and a lock a lock no matter the position. Is it not?

:asian: Sumdumguy

[Eraser]

Hey all....


I must say that this Hapkido-girl.. is thank-ful for being taught some ground grappling techniques... sheesh.. think about it gang.. if somones ontop of you in a choke hold... how long do you think you have to make a move before you pass out?????? 6 seconds.. 10 seconds??? that's not really long.. so my suggestion is be prepared for any type of situation.. im not just saying this cuz im a woman.. and typically that may be the situation women can get into during an attack.. but.. hey.. if you move doesn't work on your attacker.. and your on the ground.. you better darn well be prepared..

Thats all i wanted to say!!!

:asian:

[sweeper]

if they get a good choke you should pass out in 2 or 3 seconds (if they cut 99% of the blood to your brain) if they get a bad one it could last a long time.

[Rainman]

Originally posted by cdhall



Yes, sir. I met this guy when my instructor had him in for a seminar. It was the plan to have the guy down twice a year or so and have him continue to work grappling with us. I like the fact that he is a Kenpo guy who has formally studied Jiu-Jitsu and this is an appeal. This same guys says it is really just "Kenpo on the ground." He seems to think there is a lot we can apply from what we alredy know. In a very similar situation, I have used some of what I know from EPAK while on the ground and the Concepts and Principles did apply. That was also encouraging to me.

Thank you.
:asian:

No jujitsu for us- AK. Where did you meet him? It would have had to been on the west coast if you did.

:asian:

[cdhall]

I'm doing a poor job of communicating my point. I'll try again.

My point is that EPAK is not Jiu-Jitsu, they don't look alike, one is made for standing up and striking, one is made for fighting while you are on the ground. That is all I meant. Naturally you can use some of both in both situations and I have done some of this and been surprised to see it work. And, yes, a choke is a choke... Mr. Sears came to our camp once by the way. He was a Black Belt with Mr. Parker and Mr. Parker sent Mr. Sears to "check out those Gracie guys" back in the 80's. So Mr. Sears went, got a Black Belt with them, and came back. We met him around 95. He did several demos where he had his partner tapping out from a choke in under 1 second. He said "This stuff doesn' t have to take all day." So if you are being choked, you might have 1 second if the person is accomplished at that stuff (Eraser).

I meant that the only "ground" technique we have, that is taught as you fighting from the groud is Encounter with Danger. If I'm not mistaken, Leap from Danger has you hit the ground, roll, get back up and strike which I think is our preference. Get up and strike while standing. That's all I meant. We don't have any "techniques" that are "groundfighting" in the Ideal Phase. I didn't mean that we don't have stuff that does not work on the ground. But still, a Purple/Blue Belt in BJJ is WAAAY more experienced on the ground than I am as a Brown Belt in EPAK. That is what I was getting at.

The "guy" I was talking about was a former Black Belt of Mr. Duffy. His name is Darryl Simpson. He went to California and began studying Machado Jiu-Jitsu and came back to TX to visit Mr. Duffy and did a seminar/workout for us to show us some Jiu-Jitsu/Groundfighting. So yes, he was from the West Coast, but we had him here teaching us when he visited Austin, TX.

I hope I cleared up some confusion.
:asian:

[sumdumguy]

If you are no longer confused then yes, I however have not taught any seminars in TX Yet. There is time though.

Aaaahhhhh that's enough!!!!
Thanks Sumdumguy :asian:

[Chiduce]

We do throw when it is too our advantage. However, the use of choking throws, striking throws, and strangle strike throwing combinations etc, are taught depending on the violence involved with the confrontation. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Kirk]

Interesting discussion. Let me throw into the mix that I find
MMA/Pankration/Grapplers alone to be quite confrontational.
They come into forums like this all over the web and talk about
how great their system is, and how terrible the others are. They'll
use titles such as "Anything Other Than Pankration SUCKS" and
will post "I don't want to start a flame war here" :confused: :confused:
They say that most MAists will never fight another MAist ... I think
that's mostly true, with the exception of Pankrationists, MMAists,
whatever you wanna call them. They seem that confrontational,
and seem to want SO BADLY to prove that other styles are a
waste of time, that I think they'd actually pick a fight with an
MAist, just to put a BIGGER chip on their shoulder. I'm big time
curious about the instructors of these styles, because we all
know .. bad teacher = bad student and teacher with attitude =
student with attitude. I wouldn't mention this at all if I didn't feel
it was a common attitude among these practitioners. It sure is
in forums all over the net! And in true MMA/Pankration/Whatever
style, let me just say .. I'm not bringing this up to start a flame
war, I'd like to discuss this! I'd like to know where the tude
comes from?

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by sweeper

if they get a good choke you should pass out in 2 or 3 seconds (if they cut 99% of the blood to your brain) if they get a bad one it could last a long time.

It is impossible to choke someone out in 2 seconds. I'm skeptical about the possibility of constricting blood flow to the brain by 99%. It's just not medically likely.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Kirk

[B]Interesting discussion. Let me throw into the mix that I find
MMA/Pankration/Grapplers alone to be quite confrontational.
They come into forums like this all over the web and talk about
how great their system is, and how terrible the others are. They'll
use titles such as "Anything Other Than Pankration SUCKS" and
will post "I don't want to start a flame war here" :confused: :confused:

Some of them do, but not all of them. There are plenty of MMA forums out there which are big and well-behaved.



I'm big time
curious about the instructors of these styles, because we all
know .. bad teacher = bad student and teacher with attitude =
student with attitude. I wouldn't mention this at all if I didn't feel
it was a common attitude among these practitioners. It sure is
in forums all over the net! And in true MMA/Pankration/Whatever
style, let me just say .. I'm not bringing this up to start a flame
war, I'd like to discuss this! I'd like to know where the tude
comes from?

It varies. EVERY art has it's *******s, MMA styles are no different. The Gracies and Machados are gentlemen. Ken Shamrock seems like a nice guy, a family man.

Which instructors specifically do you think encourages a bad attitude in practitioners?

I think a lot of the problem people have with the attitudes of MMA people is that by nature they are competetive and want to pressure-test and compete. They see no problem with challenging or calling another style on it's practices and offer no respect which is not earned. In short, they are not PC.

But they do keep a lot of people honest....

[Bushido]

The problem is that they consider the ma as a sport, and who say sport say competition, challenge. So they challenge to prove that they are the best.


-Bushido

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Bushido

[B]The problem is that they consider the ma as a sport, and who say sport say competition, challenge. So they challenge to prove that they are the best.


I would say for most of them it's more a case of finding out what works in free training, not necessarily who is 'the best'.

The basic starting point in the thinking of MMA people is that if you can't make it work on a resisting opponent then it probably isn't functional.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, btw :D

[sweeper]

well I have never met any high end MMA people but some of my freinds have and from what I hear their pritty much all nice people, I don't think it's the people you would see in UFC matches that are training people like this, I think it's less experienced fighters..

and I didn't say a perfect choke was probable, I said it was posable. I have seen a 4 second choke out in judo, as for 2 or 3 I'm not 100% on it but I think it's physicaly posable.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Morpheus

Which instructors specifically do you think encourages a bad attitude in practitioners?

I was just saying that the attitude has to originate somewhere.
My first assumption would be from their instructors.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Kirk



I was just saying that the attitude has to originate somewhere.
My first assumption would be from their instructors.

If you meet someone with a bad attitude, do you automatically assume it's their instructor's fault?

After all, people don't walk into martial arts schools and then change their attitudes fundamentally. I would probably look to other aspects of their life such as their upbringing if they are *******s.

There's a lot of people who talk trash on the net, and generally speaking I don't think that MMA students do it more than others. It's probably just more noticeable by virtue of the fact that they are cross-trainers and so don't feel there's anything wrong with picking apart what they perceive to be the strengths or weaknesses of another style.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Morpheus



If you meet someone with a bad attitude, do you automatically assume it's their instructor's fault?

After all, people don't walk into martial arts schools and then change their attitudes fundamentally. I would probably look to other aspects of their life such as their upbringing if they are *******s.

But when you can point to a certain group and that act this way
often, then by that logic, I'd be forced to assume that
confrontational jerks flock to MMA.


Originally posted by Morpheus

There's a lot of people who talk trash on the net, and generally speaking I don't think that MMA students do it more than others. It's probably just more noticeable by virtue of the fact that they are cross-trainers and so don't feel there's anything wrong with picking apart what they perceive to be the strengths or weaknesses of another style.

Read my initial thread again .. my contention is that there's a
pattern to it. In addition, check out this forum, and other non
MMA forums on this page. Yes, you'll find buttholes all over, but
it usually stems from a disagreement, NOT someone just coming
out and going "hey, your style sucks" or "MT vs. TKD .. who'd
win?" or going into an existing thread and going WAY WAY off
topic saying "you should look into grappling" or "that would
never happen in pankration". Also notice I used the
word "incessant" ... it happens a lot, check out other forums.
It's been my experience, and mine alone, I asked if others have
seen it too.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Morpheus



It is impossible to choke someone out in 2 seconds. I'm skeptical about the possibility of constricting blood flow to the brain by 99%. It's just not medically likely.

Morpheus,

I don't know the exact biology behind it but I posted elsewhere that at a training camp we held sometime between 1991 and 1994 I think, Mr. Sears (don't know his full name or anything) was confronted with this and asked for volunteers and someone with a stopwatch to time him. He Repeatedly made people tap in under 1 second. 0.75 seconds might have been the record for the day, but it was one of the times I remember. He was of course trying to get his guy to tap, I imagine that if he went straight for the knockout, he would have been faster.

Also, at another camp, perhaps in '91 Prof. John Sepulveda (www.jskenpo.com) was teaching Sleeper. There was a guy there named Mr. Jeffrey Dix. He is a big guy who was a Prison Guard at San Quentin. He probably used his stuff in real life on a weekly basis. But he had a very thick neck and Dared Mr. Sepulveda to choke him out. He said "No one has ever choked me out. That would not work. It can't be done."

You guessed it. Mr. Sepulveda tapped him out immediately, had him tapping on contact. Mr. Dix was so amazed that he had him do it twice. Mr. Dix was a believer.

I'm sure that this is possible. I'm not easy to choke out either with these holds. I understand that there are two ways to choke someone out.

Strangulation involves restricting bloodflow to the brain is the way most of these are supposed to work.

Choking restricts airflow via the Trachea and is very dangerous and may cause death via damage to the Trachea during the choke.

When people choke me, I usually feel it in the throat and tap sooner. This often made me skeptical about "going out" with a strangulation choke because they don't often work on me. But last week when we were working grappling in class, the teacher did get me in a strangulation hold and I could feel myself fading right away. In under 1 second my priority became "tap out." In the street this would have to be "get out" and I would need to get out right away or fall unconscious. Mr. Duffy can also cause me to fade out. I've never been rendered unconscious, but I have felt myself fading.

I hope this helps. For a long time I didn't believe this either. Mr. Sears told us in his class that at the Gracies you had to know CPR and revival and that it was a requirement to get choked out so you'd know how it felt. It is dangerous to work this stuff properly, he says before you can work it for real, you MUST be sure that you are able to revive your partner. So lots of places just don't train this way. We don't really. We've never choked anyone out in class, getting them to tap is enough. You have established at that point that they are no longer a threat. They are worried about not passing out and very often they will comply.

I confess a grappler... may try an escape in a real situation, but in a real situation you wouldn't be waiting on them to tap either, you'd choke them out and proceed to whatever the next step would be.

I relate these stories in an effort to broaden everyone's experience. That is why we are here. I don't want to argue whether this is real or not. As Mr. Parker says "To feel is to believe."

Thank you.
:asian:

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Morpheus



It is impossible to choke someone out in 2 seconds. I'm skeptical about the possibility of constricting blood flow to the brain by 99%. It's just not medically likely.

Anything is possible. It's not just the lack of blood flow, it's also the lack of air. I had to apply a choke hold on a person that was trying to fight me. I've done this 100 times, most did not pass out completely. Well I had the choke on this person for less than 3 seconds. He went completely limp and passed out. Scared me pretty bad, I thought I killed him. It took a good 2 minutes to wake him up.

So yes, it is possible.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by cdhall
Mr. Sears (don't know his full name or anything) was confronted with this and asked for volunteers and someone with a stopwatch to time him. He Repeatedly made people tap in under 1 second. 0.75 seconds might have been the record for the day, but it was one of the times I remember. He was of course trying to get his guy to tap, I imagine that if he went straight for the knockout, he would have been faster.

Hi Doug-

In competition, whether judo or otherwise, most people tap not because the choke has been sunk in very well, but because of the pain or pressure on their trachea. I can make someone want to tap almost immediately even with a very bad choke by sawing on that area of the throat.

This is not the same thing as actually knocking someone unconscious by restricting the air or blood flow to the brain.

I say again that from personal experience it is highly highly unlikely that depriving someone for 2 seconds is going to put them to sleep. I have never seen it in a class, I have never seen it in competition, I have never seen it on the street out of maybe two dozen incidents where a sleeperhold was used by my fellow doormen. These were incidents where we were trying to actually put a BG out cold, not trying to make him 'tap' in a seminar as 'Mr Sears' was doing.

Making someone tap, and actually putting them out are two different things, don't be fooled into thinking this guy was doing something he was not.



We don't really. We've never choked anyone out in class, getting them to tap is enough. You have established at that point that they are no longer a threat. They are worried about not passing out and very often they will comply.

Hi Doug- no offense, then I don't think you really have experience enough or proof to contradict me when I suggest that unconsciousness in 2 seconds or cutting the blood to the brain by 99% is an extreme exaggeration.

Judoka, sub wrestlers and BJJ guys do end up with people passing out. I saw a Vale Tudo fighter knocked out for 15 seconds with a clock choke two saturdays ago, that was the last one I've seen. And believe me, I've never seen a 2 second knockout from a choke. :D

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Zoran



Anything is possible. It's not just the lack of blood flow, it's also the lack of air. I had to apply a choke hold on a person that was trying to fight me. I've done this 100 times, most did not pass out completely. Well I had the choke on this person for less than 3 seconds. He went completely limp and passed out. Scared me pretty bad, I thought I killed him. It took a good 2 minutes to wake him up.

So yes, it is possible.

Funny, most people wake up after about 15-20 seconds.

I am an open-minded person, but when it comes to close combat 'anything' is not possible, the human body is very predictable. I don't believe in people falling unconscious for no reason, in a click of the fingers.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Morpheus



Funny, most people wake up after about 15-20 seconds.

I am an open-minded person, but when it comes to close combat 'anything' is not possible, the human body is very predictable. I don't believe in people falling conscious for no reason, in a click of the fingers when there is no reason for them to.

That has been my experience too. This was an exception. It could be he passed out from other reasons. Low pain tolerance, fear, medical problems, etc. The human body is not always predictable, there is quite a bit we don't know. Let's just say most people fit in that 99% category. There is that 1% that may not be in the norm.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Morpheus



Hi Doug- no offense, then I don't think you really have experience enough or proof to contradict me when I suggest that unconsciousness in 2 seconds or cutting the blood to the brain by 99% is an extreme exaggeration.
:D

Morpheus,

You are correct. I don't have experience in this arena beyond what I described and I don't watch many matches on TV or go to them in person, so I do agree that you have more evidence than I do. But now I'm curious. I'm going to go visit a BJJ school near me and ask them about this.

Thank you. This is a very cool and very useful website.
:asian:

[MTisGreat]

who here is backin up thier grappling with strikin...huh...huh???
:D

[SolidTiger]

when I first started training in martial arts I started in a class
that teched kung fu and the art of self defence, and I've learned
and letter I have learned the hard fighting style of American Kenpo. when I fight I use certain technique that I really like or
just do plan well when I use them. I try to do whatever I can so
I try to go for the most effective. sometimes the most effective
is confusion and when you change you style or ad a pounch from
kenpo and kicks from kung fu your opponent will not know what
your going to do next....he he he

[MTisGreat]

can someone tell me what the major arts are in MMA?...

[Kempojujutsu]

Most MMA fighters crosstrain in various arts. I am sure that I will leave a few out but here goes my list.

Grappling Arts Striking Arts
BJJ Muay Thai
JJJ Boxing
Judo Kenpo
Sambo Karate (in general)
Free Style Wrestling

Several Arts combine both Grappling and Striking.

Kempojujutsu
Jeet Kune Do
Shootfighting
Lute livea
Vale Tudo
Chute Boxing
Pancrase
Pankration
Pit fighting
San Shou
Bob





Bob :boxing: :drinkbeer :drinkbeer :boxing: :boxing:

[SolidTiger]

If a person could get knockout with a single blow, I think a
person could get choked out in two seconds...

Thank you..

SolidTiger

"Sometimes the wind deroots the tree"

[LanceWildcat1]

Actually, I went the other way around. I studied Jiujitsu about 30 years ago, and always wanted to back it up with a striking art. Because of time, family, etc., I just recently started karate in order to have a good striking art, and also to exercise my body following some rather radical surgical 'mods' to my body.
Lance Hyatt:cool:

[sweeper]

well the lack of blood flow is the big one, if there is no blood flowing than it doesn't matter how well you can breath. Also you can cut 100% of someone's air flow (like when someone holds thier breath) and they can fight for a quite a bit.

I would argue that tap outs are not chokes, tap outs are actualy faster than chokes because you tap before you go out. Also if someone has never been out they usualy panic and tap so it might be fear of going out or fading or it could be pain that forces them to tap. Of course I wasn't there so I can't realy speak on the specific case, just my experience with others.

I'm also in cdhall's camp, never been choked out but have been close. In my experience alot of it depends on the situation though if someone is holding their chin higher up and is caught by suprise it's alot easyer to choke them than someone who has their chin low and is trying to twist out.

[Bushido]

Originally posted by SolidTiger

If a person could get knockout with a single blow, I think a
person could get choked out in two seconds...

Thank you..

SolidTiger

"Sometimes the wind deroots the tree"

I hate when people are spreading false information. It is NOT physically possible to choke someone in two seconds. The choke has to do its effects, and the time required is a little different depending on the constitution of the oppenent. generally, it takes a full 10 seconds to choke someone out. After 10 seconds, release the grip and if he is not out, reapply for 4-5 seconds...then he will be out.


-Bushido

[SolidTiger]

Originally posted by Bushido



I hate when people are spreading false information. It is NOT physically possible to choke someone in two seconds. The choke has to do its effects, and the time required is a little different depending on the constitution of the oppenent. generally, it takes a full 10 seconds to choke someone out. After 10 seconds, release the grip and if he is not out, reapply for 4-5 seconds...then he will be out.


-Bushido

It can be possible to make someone passout from lack of air or
blood flow to the brain. A person can still have air in their body when they passout. So it can happen...

Thank You

SolidTiger

[Bushido]

My friend, you should try bjj or judo to see for yourself.

-Bushido

[SolidTiger]

You never know I might someday, I'm still young right now.

Thank You

SolidTiger

[arnisador]

Are we distinguishing between a choke (air supply) and a strangle (blood supply)? I think a person can be strangled out fairly quickly.

[LanceWildcat1]

I have to agree with Bushido. It takes between 8 and 10 seconds to fully put someone out with a choke. And, if they don't submit within the first 5-7 seconds, chances are, they are going to be unable to do so. I've had it done to me, and I've done it to a few people, myself.:)

[arnisador]

My BJJ instructor says if they don't submit after 10 seconds, give up on the choke and try something else.

[SolidTiger]

Will do you think it is possible for that person to faint, from
lack of air or blood flow, because thats what I think make
a fighter passout . The body shuts down like a switch.

Thank You

SolidTiger

[LanceWildcat1]

When the brain is deprived of either oxygen or blood, it shuts down rapidly.:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by LanceWildcat1

When the brain is deprived of either oxygen or blood, it shuts down rapidly.

Yes--but when the lungs are deprived of oxygen (choke), it takes a while for the brain to receive the effect of that loss (though it gets the effect of panicking quickly). When it's deprived of blood (starngle), it feels the effect of the loss of oxygen rapidly.

[sweeper]

SolidTiger if you are referring to a ring fighter passing out from a strike than I tihnk you are incorrect, that's from your brain knocking against your skull

[SolidTiger]

Originally posted by sweeper

SolidTiger if you are referring to a ring fighter passing out from a strike than I tihnk you are incorrect, that's from your brain knocking against your skull

How do your brain knock against your skull when you are being chokeout?

Thank You

SolidTiger

[sweeper]

I said "if you are referring to a ring fighter passing out from a strike" ......

[SolidTiger]

Oh, because I was talking about getting chokeout from lack of blood flow or air to the brain.

But from a strike you can be knockout with one punch.

Thank You

SolidTiger