Fakes, Frauds and Wanna BeeeZZZZ [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com

VSanhodo

06-02-2005, 08:08 AM

Ok, now first off, Im not starting this as bashing board. Merely relating an expierence I went through for a friend of mine recently. I encourage you to post you own such stories but please if at all possible lets not use names to protect the guilty and to not offend the MODS, I would kinda like to see where this one goes.

Several weeks ago a long time friend of mine moved to Florida. Seems in his area there were several schools he was interested in attending. when he finally choose one, He asked me to check on the guys credentials, so I did.

The owner claimed to teach Hwarang DO, Aikido and several other arts. So I went onto the net and contacted the HwarangDO headquarters in California. They said without a doubt this guy was NOT a known teacher of their system. They are now in the process of working with this guy through attorneys to get him to stop advertising he is teaching HwarangDo. Seems he is also the Grandmaster of his own system of Aikido. Well after checking he claims to be a student of a Legit High Ranking Aikido Instructor out of Washington DC, Whom I know. I placed a call. Seems the Grandmaster has only taken a few classes and attended a few seminars. Hmmmmmmm begining to sound suspicious. Now third this guy is a memeber of one of the hall of fame / soke council etc. Well it now turns out that Yes he is a memeber and sits on the board but it is this same group who recognized his Aikido system based on his HWD credientials and other probably dubious credientials as well.
I dont get it, in todays modern times, with the internet at your fingertips, You can check on ppl very very quickly. I checked out everyone of my daughters school teachers. Verified thier credentials and did a criminal background check on them as well. I dont apologize for doing any of this, First its my daughter and her safety and wellfare are my primary concern. If she were looking for a martial arts school I would do the samething, I would check out the owner and instructors at the school, They are martial artist not Gods
As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Thanks

San

lonekimono10

06-02-2005, 08:56 AM

what i want to know is did you do anything about this man?? and did you tell your friend about him??? you know i went over this a while back with a person here in New Jersey and was told to let it go , he/she will answer in the long run.
But you are right in what you did.

VSanhodo

06-02-2005, 09:03 AM

I live in a different location than my friend but O YEAH, I let him know what I found and even went os far as to contact the newspaper where the school is located with a letter to the editior.

Sadly there is actually little a person can do to actually shut down this type of operation but we all need to be far more careful.

Thanks

San

terryl965

06-02-2005, 11:11 AM

Well first off not to sound a little discourage here, It would be impossible for every single student to be in a data base. I personally belong to USA TKD and AAU and I'm registered with both and through the Kukkiwon, now here is the catch before TKD i study Okinawa Karate under my father and his partner my certificates are signed by them and no one else. Now does that make it not so because you do not know them and back in those days there was no governing body taking care of cert. People put so much value in a piece of paper that is registred somewhere for the most part those organizations are money hungry ego driven social clubs in my opion. I know I'm for real I was there and did 12-16 hours a day training to be where I'm at today. I do understand your point about wanting to know your instructor but I see no-way every claim can be made to be verified. This fine country we live in give's people the right to do what they choose, so many instructor I know of learn from video for years and now supposealy know more than me and never trained with a real Master in there life, maybe ateended a seminar or got there picture with some great Master while was there and say's I trained with him wow for a day or two that's not training.

Sorry I'll get of my soapbox.
Terry lee Stoker

shesulsa

06-02-2005, 11:35 AM

The owner claimed to teach Hwarang DO, Aikido and several other arts. So I went onto the net and contacted the HwarangDO headquarters in California. They said without a doubt this guy was NOT a known teacher of their system. They are now in the process of working with this guy through attorneys to get him to stop advertising he is teaching HwarangDo. Seems he is also the Grandmaster of his own system of Aikido. Well after checking he claims to be a student of a Legit High Ranking Aikido Instructor out of Washington DC, Whom I know. I placed a call. Seems the Grandmaster has only taken a few classes and attended a few seminars. Hmmmmmmm begining to sound suspicious. Now third this guy is a memeber of one of the hall of fame / soke council etc. Well it now turns out that Yes he is a memeber and sits on the board but it is this same group who recognized his Aikido system based on his HWD credientials and other probably dubious credientials as well.
I dont get it, in todays modern times, with the internet at your fingertips, You can check on ppl very very quickly. I checked out everyone of my daughters school teachers. Verified thier credentials and did a criminal background check on them as well. I dont apologize for doing any of this, First its my daughter and her safety and wellfare are my primary concern. If she were looking for a martial arts school I would do the samething, I would check out the owner and instructors at the school, They are martial artist not Gods
As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Thanks

San Now here is where it gets interesting. Especially for people like me.

>MOD HAT OFF<

Did you know that there are many people who are no longer members of the WHRDA? Do you have any idea why? Have you investigated much about the WHRDA?

An association or organization - ANY of such - is only that; a group of people who call themselves something and claim their way is the right way and the only right way.

I have met and know some of these men who are not members of the WHRDA (though no one in Florida) and they are FINE martial artists of good character. They're far better artists than I and their training is, I assure you, legitimate.

So - what does it take, I ask you, for someone to be ousted from an Association, Organization or Council? Let's explore these possibilities. Political deviance from the SGM? Absence from meetings, discussions? Money? Personal rivalry? Gosh, I would think the list could go on and on.

And when one is ousted, who is the phony? Who is the fraud? Must there be one at all? If so, for what reason? To point a finger and call a name based upon individual emotion or need for compartmentalization?

Let's start there and then continue ....

RRouuselot

06-02-2005, 11:42 AM

An association or organization - ANY of such - is only that; a group of people who call themselves something and claim their way is the right way and the only right way.

That’s not really true. What is it with the over generalizations on this board anyway???

I know of several organizations that don’t claim to be better than anyone or that their way is THE right way.

shesulsa

06-02-2005, 11:47 AM

That’s not really true. What is it with the over generalizations on this board anyway???

I know of several organizations that don’t claim to be better than anyone or that their way is THE right way.
In essence and mostly, it is true, unless the organization or association is based on fellowship only and absolutely anyone can join. Though there may be a few who embody fellowship and non-judgementalism, I think those would be extremely rare.

And since you're interested in abating over-generalization, could you be more specific as to the organizations that are not based on bias of some kind?

RRouuselot

06-02-2005, 11:57 AM

1)In essence and mostly, it is true, unless the organization or association is based on fellowship only and absolutely anyone can join. Though there may be a few who embody fellowship and non-judgementalism, I think those would be extremely rare.

2) And since you're interested in abating over-generalization, could you be more specific as to the organizations that are not based on bias of some kind?

1) It seems you went from ANY to "mostly" and "it is ture unless"

2)Be glad to……charitable organizations.

It seems you are lumping ALL organizations into one group based solely on your exposure to a limited number of them.

shesulsa

06-02-2005, 12:03 PM

1)I guess you and I don’t hang out in the same circles. Clearly. Different styles, different countries ... go figure.:)

2)Be glad to……charitable organizations.

It seems you are lumping ALL organizations into one group based solely on your exposure to a limited number of them.
Even charitable organizations have their rules and regulations, Robert. Let's look at United Way. They refuse funding to groups who do not report ethnic composition. Goodwill and Salvation Army - one must qualify for their job training programs.

And ... I thought you wanted to do away with generalizations ... ???

RRouuselot

06-02-2005, 12:07 PM

Clearly. Different styles, different countries ... go figure.:)

Even charitable organizations have their rules and regulations, Robert. Let's look at United Way. They refuse funding to groups who do not report ethnic composition. Goodwill and Salvation Army - one must qualify for their job training programs.

And ... I thought you wanted to do away with generalizations ... ???
I fail to see how that supports your comment "claim their way is the right way and the only right way."

shesulsa

06-02-2005, 12:10 PM

Ya know what, Robert? I promised the rest of the staff that I would abide by all rules of the site and sidetracking onto that discussion in this thread is against the rules. If you'd like to start another thread on this, I'd be happy to argue the point with you. But the discussion here is in the title.

Andrew Green

06-02-2005, 01:01 PM

As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Yup, lots of nonsense.

But I think the solution is a little different.

STOP looking at credentials and lineage. Stop making them important. Not just you, everyone. It is the credentials and lineage that get abused by these fakes to promote themselves. If Credentials and Lineage loose there relevance they won't be able to do this.

Think about it, if instructors had no certificates to hide behind and where only judged on there abilities would this be as big of problem?

Jerry

06-02-2005, 01:13 PM

Think about it, if instructors had no certificates to hide behind and where only judged on there abilities would this be as big of problem? Would be for the novices.

Andrew Green

06-02-2005, 01:14 PM

Would be for the novices.
Wouldn't last long

FearlessFreep

06-02-2005, 01:20 PM

I think his point was that novices can't judge abilities when selecting an instructor. A newbie walking into a school trying to decide on this school or the one down the street can't really look at the instructor and know or understand or judge the abilities of that instructor

'Credentials' and 'Lineage', as much as they are abused, are similar to a resume for work. They are a way of documenting what you (claim to) have done and what your abilities are; what you can offer to the person who is hiring you.

The problem with credentials and lineage, like resumes, are when people are dishonest about what they claim.

Andrew Green

06-02-2005, 01:25 PM

I think his point was that novices can't judge abilities when selecting an instructor.
To some extent you can. And beyond that it won't take long after starting training with them to realise what there skill level is, and what there knowledge is. Once someone starts questioning they start looking around, and the truth will work its way out.

With ranks and titles many people just accept at face value anything there instructor says, simply because he's got a high rank and therefore MUST know what he is talking about to have obtained it.

Bob Hubbard

06-02-2005, 01:32 PM

Most people shop on price and percieved value.

$50 a month with a 10th who has "studied" several arts looks much better than $75 a month with a lowely 4th who's only studied 1 art.

People see all the pretty papers and think "wow, he's good". He lines everyone up, barks some psudo-japanese and they think "wow, good teacher". He breaks some pine boards and they think "wow, great technique".

People shop for martial arts like they shop for toasters. What's got the most chrome, and is lightest on my pocket book.

I see part of MT's mission to help educate the general public. To let them know you can't be a Soke of Kung Fu. (Wrong title/culture/art). That 25 is a bit young to hold 10 th degrees and be a founder of a unique fighting style. That the fancy paper doesn't tell the whole story. That shopping on cost is not how to shop for martial arts training, and that the MA is about more than just "beating people up".

People get tied up on who someones teacher was.
It don't matter.
I could be trained by the gods themselves....it don't matter.
It only matters what got through my thick skull.

And that has to be shown. Not printed and stuck on a wall.

IMO.

Jerry

06-02-2005, 01:52 PM

Wouldn't last long
To some extent you can. And beyond that it won't take long after starting training with them to realise what there skill level is, and what there knowledge is. That's not been my experience at all. I've met many a person who has been studying inherently flawed material for decades and never known it.

Do you think that the people who entered the early UFCs and had their butts handed to them knew that there was a basic flaw in the material they were learning?

Andrew Green

06-02-2005, 02:28 PM

Do you think that the people who entered the early UFCs and had their butts handed to them knew that there was a basic flaw in the material they were learning?
Given the standards at the time, they where studying good material. Everyone that went in was a good fighter, and many had good lineages.

The problem with claiming to be the best, or most effective is that there is always someone better.

Very simple test to see if what you are doing is effective or not. Drop as many rules as you can and go as hard as you can.

MJS

06-02-2005, 03:03 PM

Jerry

06-02-2005, 04:09 PM

Given the standards at the time, they where studying good material. Everyone that went in was a good fighter, and many had good lineages.

The problem with claiming to be the best, or most effective is that there is always someone better.

Very simple test to see if what you are doing is effective or not. Drop as many rules as you can and go as hard as you can. Which goes right back to my point. You said

"And beyond that it won't take long after starting training with them to realise what there skill level is, and what there knowledge is. "
Worse, this is in addition to a "ignore the liniage, they will either have it or not" statement (too lazy to go cut-n-paste).

On the one hand, you seem to be saying that a neophyte will quickly determine good from bad, but you are making good "the standard at the time", which would neccessitate that the neophyte have access to, and look at, that material; which many do not.

Many who came into the early UFCs didn't simply loose to ebtter fighters; they lost due to inherent flaws in their system / skillset... flaws that they had not seen in years of training and in a lot of competition. (BTW, are you suggesting that "it won't take long after starting training that anyone will engage in multiple limited-rules fights"?).

A neophyte does not have a feel of "standards" (that's what makes them a neophyte) and most will not go compete in NHB competitions sans the instructor telling them. They will be fooled... they are fooled. About once a month I used to see a long-time student from somewhere or another who was convincced he had "the stuff" when it came to material and did not... because the school he was studying at didn't have it to teach him.

Andrew Green

06-02-2005, 04:16 PM

Standards at the time are all there is.

10 years from now everything that is being done now could be exposed as having inherent flaws in it.

All those fighters where still good fighters, and unless someone knew how to take advantage of those flaws they where meaningless.

Progress keeps things moving forward, but that doesn't mean the old stuff was useless, it just means we have improved on it.

shesulsa

06-02-2005, 05:24 PM

On lineage:

When a very talented, well-educated, well-trained, long-time martial artist parts ways with his/her student (also a very talented, well-educated, well-trained, long-term martial artist) who has achieved considerable Dan ranking ... does this make the student no longer valid? What if they just have political differences?

So ... should this strike the pupil off the list of viable instructors? Is lineage TRULY broken here?

I liken this to a parent "disowning" a child. So ... father and son have a severe falling out and father refuses to recognize his son again. Well ... we can't exactly go about shoving the child back in, now can we? He lives and breathes and lives a legacy of his own making. And I'm sorry, but no amount of denial can remove that DNA coding.

Thoughts? Comments?

VSanhodo

06-02-2005, 08:18 PM

In the town I used to live in, there was a fellow there who claimed to be, I fI remember correctly a 5th or 6th Dan in JuJitsu. He was one of the nicest ppl in the world, I went over to visit and in 2 minutes realized he was a BS artist but his ppl thought he walked on water. Now I do realize you will never be able to totally eliminate the all of the fakes and fraudes, but I do believe if instructors were required to some extend be able to prove their credentials. And if more ppl did their homework and checked up on these guys,there would be even fewer BS artist.
Now, Do i think there are ppl out there who have trained with instructors who are not well known and who have legit skill and knowledge? Of course but it has been my expierence that the vast majority of ppl out that dont about lineage and credientals are the same ppl who are the fakes and frauds. Again not all but most, so if the shoe fits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Years ago I had to have some knee surgery, I too the time to chekc up on my doctor, it wasnt hard, i have checked up on my lawyer and do backgroudn checks on my employees. Most often even if you trained with your dads, uncle's cousin, he or she had to have trained with someone who is known, not always but usually.
Why credientials and lineage. Simple if you go to hire someone for a job and their resume says University of XYZ and can be proven they really attended XYZ vs the guy who has certificate saying he attended Harvard, Yale, Stamford etc and nobody knows who he or she is. Hmmm I sure know who I would study under.
But hey if your happy studying whatever it is you study under whomever it is you study under, its no hair off my back one way or the other, I will sleep fine at night.
Chances are in 10 years nobody will know or remember you, your art or instructor. Whereas the names of the classics will never die.
Thanks for everyone taking the time to post
I appreciate everyones input and opinions.
Remember, I dont have to agree with you at all for your views, opinions and posts to be welcome.
San

tshadowchaser

06-02-2005, 09:00 PM

How many of you that have schools have a new student or someone looking to syudy for the first time ask to see your papers, certs, etc.. How many new students to the arts would know if a person with 7th, 8th, or whatever degree cert. got it from a cert. factory or from their own computer.
Most people I have come to my school simply watch a class or two ask a few questions , usualy about tournaments, cost, and uniforms, then decide if they like what they see. If they seem interested I talk to them about the system, where it came from and a little about my background. By the time I get half way through talking to them I can see they have no idea of what I'm saying or why I am saying it.
They only want to know how long it takes to be able to defend themsleves, if we start fighting (sparing ) soon after they enter or wait a while, and how much out of pocket money it costs when they come on the floor.
I could tell them I'm a 18th dan twice removed on my mothers, brothers, cousins side of the GOfor Itall instructor and they would not know if that statement was ligit or not. All they would see was what happened on the floor, and maybe a look at my strips on my belt.
Fakes, if they have a little knowledge and ability, and are willing to promote little Jonny every tow or three months will always have more students than me.

shesulsa

06-03-2005, 03:34 AM

Interesting perspective, Tshadow, and excellent points.

I'm curious why no one wants to discuss clean breaks from an organization rather than the dirty laundry?

VsanHodo, may I ask who the instructor was in Florida that the WHRDA is 'after'? And I'm curious why you did not want to address my questions to you about your knowledge of this organization since you used this particular instructor and the WHRDA as examples?

Marginal

06-03-2005, 04:59 AM

I'm more curious why after leaving an org, one would feel compelled to claim a 10th dan in another style. Leaving one style's one thing. Fraudulently claiming rank in another doesn't really scan well on the integrity scale, even if the styles are somewhat related.

Adept

06-03-2005, 05:46 AM

Would be for the novices.
Doesn't seem to be a problem for boxing, kick-boxing, muay thai, etc.

VSanhodo

06-03-2005, 08:03 AM

Interesting perspective, Tshadow, and excellent points.
I happen to agree with you on this one Shadaow, I cant think of a time when someone walked into one of my schools and looked at my certificates or really cared what was on them. Most ppl as you mentioned want to see it, feel it, taste it and expierence so to speak, they could careless about credientials and lineage. Personally I do and encourage ppl to take them time to check ppl out.
Tournaments are flash dont impress me at all.
There are wayyyyyy to many ppl out there who look real fancy and are turly nice ppl who truly believe they are teaching really really good martial arts. And frankly I dont really have a problem with this type of person who are honestly trying to make a living. but those who are knowingly commiting fraud by falsely advertising and making up BS lineage and credientals those are the ppl I hope will get exsposed.

I'm curious why no one wants to discuss clean breaks from an organization rather than the dirty laundry?

I agree with you on this one. but sadly like the news nobody wants to watch GNN (Good News Network) they would rather watch CNN Criminal News Network. Bad News sells

VsanHodo, may I ask who the instructor was in Florida that the WHRDA is 'after'? And I'm curious why you did not want to address my questions to you about your knowledge of this organization since you used this particular instructor and the WHRDA as examples? Sure your more than welcome to ask, I wont answer but your welcome to ask. In all of my years of posting in various forums and i life in general I try my very vest to not downgrade ppl nor bash them. Right now this matter is between the HWD HQ and this fellow..
Now why did I use him and them as examples?? I didnt, I sued them as fact. This guy lives in the central Florida. My knowledge of this orginazation is I would have to admit somewhat limited but I know enough ppl whom I can and have asked prior to e mailing them to learn more about them. One of hte things I did leave out and will mentin now, On this guys certificates which I have pics of, Mr Lee's signature is very clear and in an e mail I recieved from the HWD HQ they say this certificate and signature are both fakes.
If you read any of my previous posts or threads you will see I dont and will never use persons real names. Unless someone else mentions their name first. Then I will but otherwise I wont. Gossip is like soft soft soap, mostly Lie. I try to do my research before writting to a group or even posting a thread.
I hope all this helps,
Thanks for taking the time to reply and post.

San

terryl965

06-03-2005, 10:13 AM

Shesulsa, I will try and answer why dirty loundry is all people care about and the break-up that occurs. In my Art of TKD there are so many big headed egotistical, I'm the best that the room cannot fit them, that being said insults start to fly and the next thing you know is the guy saying you know nothing and for twenty year you've been training side by side. I have no clue when a difference arrives one just can't say that is your opion and I can see your way but I do not agree and still be friend and MA brothers, but the new generation of MA are loss for they have no Humility or Respect for each other they see this as a money making machine and a sport not a Art anymore. Over the forty something years I have been involved in MA each year the qualification goes down and the age of Master are a joke, how can someone in there twentys be a Master of there Art please they are still in Diapers, that does not mean they are not great MA but Master please, everytime I disagree with one they baD MOUTH ME AND SAY i KNOW NOTHING FORGET THTA I HAVE BEEN AROUND LONGER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN ALIVE, THERE EGO'S GET THE BEST OF THEM. Sorry for the big print.

Terry lee Stoker

shesulsa

06-03-2005, 11:19 AM

So what about the lineage? If a person trains with an SGM for years and obtains considerable Dan ranking from SGM (who runs an organization) and needs to make a clean break of things, IS LINEAGE TRULY BROKEN?? I'd like people's opinions on this.

Sure your more than welcome to ask, I wont answer but your welcome to ask. In all of my years of posting in various forums and i life in general I try my very vest to not downgrade ppl nor bash them. Right now this matter is between the HWD HQ and this fellow..
Now why did I use him and them as examples?? I didnt, I sued them as fact. This guy lives in the central Florida. My knowledge of this orginazation is I would have to admit somewhat limited but I know enough ppl whom I can and have asked prior to e mailing them to learn more about them. One of hte things I did leave out and will mentin now, On this guys certificates which I have pics of, Mr Lee's signature is very clear and in an e mail I recieved from the HWD HQ they say this certificate and signature are both fakes.
If you read any of my previous posts or threads you will see I dont and will never use persons real names. Unless someone else mentions their name first. Then I will but otherwise I wont. Gossip is like soft soft soap, mostly Lie. I try to do my research before writting to a group or even posting a thread. I respect your consideration in not naming names here.

Since the topic of Hwarang Do is near and dear to my heart, I would very much like to exchange PMs with you for some further discussion about this specific individual. It might do me good to say at this point that I am not affiliated with the WHRDA.

I would also be very interested in your opinion of my analogy of the father and the son as well as your opinion on the politics of KMA if you don't mind, sir.

RanaHarmamelda

06-03-2005, 12:08 PM

So what about the lineage? If a person trains with an SGM for years and obtains considerable Dan ranking from SGM (who runs an organization) and needs to make a clean break of things, IS LINEAGE TRULY BROKEN?? I'd like people's opinions on this.

I'll bite. This particular experience is near and dear to my heart...

I say no. Lineage is not broken. However -- I also say that, in a traditional martial arts system, if you break from the main lineage, you should probably not use the same name, or, at least, the same system identifiers. I.E., you shouldn't claim membership in the particular HwaRangDo group, although perhaps you coul dstill say that is what you teach, since, you know, it is what you teach.

*shrug* That's what I think, anyway.

shesulsa

06-03-2005, 12:23 PM

I'll bite. This particular experience is near and dear to my heart...

I say no. Lineage is not broken. However -- I also say that, in a traditional martial arts system, if you break from the main lineage, you should probably not use the same name, or, at least, the same system identifiers. I.E., you shouldn't claim membership in the particular HwaRangDo group, although perhaps you coul dstill say that is what you teach, since, you know, it is what you teach.

*shrug* That's what I think, anyway.
I will be signing off for the weekend in just a few moments but look forward to returning to this conversation on Monday.

Until then, I'd like to ask ... why not use the same name of the style and not claim association with the official organization? There are other traditional styles which use the same name but are very different and are under differing organizations.

In the particular case of HRD, the name of the style is copyrighted, which is rare, so obviously it cannot be used unless affiliation with the organization is intact, thus the 'renegades' cannot advertise the style.

My point was more along the lines of organizations and affiliations that claim no affiliation with prior pupil who achieved considerable rank and left of his/her own accord because of political differences, not false claims, illegal actions, etcetera. And all anyone else who does not know these people can go on is the claims of the organization which may or may not be false.

So .. my point is that just because an organization or Kwan or whatever says one thing, it doesn't mean it's true, necessarily, any more than what the ousted or renegades claim may or may not be true.

shesulsa

06-06-2005, 11:33 AM

No activity on this while I was away.

Does everyone mostly agree with my last statement on this?

The Kai

06-06-2005, 12:26 PM

If you think of an organization as a teaching/learning entity, when a particular person breaks off,is his/her trainingh complete?

What if the organization shifts focus, will off shoot instructors still be in sync??

shesulsa

06-23-2005, 08:46 AM

If you think of an organization as a teaching/learning entity, when a particular person breaks off,is his/her trainingh complete? One's training is never complete. :)

What if the organization shifts focus, will off shoot instructors still be in sync?? Probably not, but who cares? For each teacher, there is a different focus, a special nuance. In most cases, off-shoot instructors have already developed their focus and their reasoning for being "out-of-sync" may very well be quite valid.

I suppose if you want a militaristic orientation to your martial art, then I can see where your point becomes important, but it is also important to remember that it is not necessarily required for quality control purposes.

tshadowchaser

06-23-2005, 06:59 PM

So what about the lineage? If a person trains with an SGM for years and obtains considerable Dan ranking from SGM (who runs an organization) and needs to make a clean break of things, IS LINEAGE TRULY BROKEN?? I'd like people's opinions on this.

No the lineage is still there. Simply because there is an instructor who trained you and you are training someone else. You may not be using the same system name and hopefully not the same patch, but your training came from the "man/woman" and that will always be true.

Now there may be problems if you left the organization under other that friendly terms, but true rank given (not honory) can not be denied. Your students gain from the knowledge given to you (and you should be proud of where it came from)

shesulsa

06-23-2005, 09:17 PM

Now there may be problems if you left the organization under other that friendly terms, but true rank given (not honory) can not be denied. Your students gain from the knowledge given to you (and you should be proud of where it came from)
Testify!

arnisador

06-24-2005, 12:15 AM

Lineage is lineage. You can take away the recognition of rank, but you can't change who taught what to whom. Lineage isn't broken, though people sometimes like to surgically excise a person from the art's or organization's written history.

psi_radar

06-24-2005, 03:10 AM

The testimony of his supposed teachers is troubling, as is always the self-designation of "grandmaster". That said, look up Hwarang do in a search on this site and you'll find lots of interesting stuff about that organization giving a bum rap to those who leave the organization.

Since Martial Arts aren't regulated, there's always the chance that even the most "credentialed" artists are frauds. However, the proof is in the pudding. The unfortunate part is that the inexperienced can't always distinguish between the highly skilled and the skilled. I say, as long as the price is right and there is no contract (or it's short), then buyer beware, get what you can, and if it's not right for you, move on.

VSanhodo

06-24-2005, 08:01 AM

I use too give my students and come to think of it still do the following example.

If the only person you ever trained with with the guy next door who only achieved the rank of Yellow belt under some yellow belt and you hadnever been exsposed to any other art you would be impressed.

Conversely, If the only person you ever trained with was Bruce Lee and you had never been exsposed to anything else you would not appreciate just how good he was.

Now if the student of the back yard wonder ended up meeting or going to Bruce's Class he would probably be amazed whereas if Bruces student went to the back yard wonders class he would instantly have a real appreciation of what he had been being taught.

There are way toooooo many overnight wonders which in my opinion have done nothing but bastardize the martial arts as a whole. I feel there is way tooo much govermental involvment and regulation in our lives alread. however, I do wish there was a way of weeding these BS artist out.

I myself, whenever I run into what I know is an overnight wonder be it on the street, in a grocery store or even in their school. I have no problem whatsoever speaking to them either in private or public and very nicely tell them I know they are a sham, but would be willing to help them in any way I possibly can to get on the right track. As I also believe most have good intentions just poor training.

Thats just my 3 cents worth

Thanks

San

Don Roley

06-24-2005, 09:58 PM

Until then, I'd like to ask ... why not use the same name of the style and not claim association with the official organization?

If by name of a style, you are talking about something like "jujutsu" or "aikido", I have no problem with that. But if you are talking about something like Yoshinkan aikido, then that is like saing McDonalds hamburgers instead of just plain hamburgers.

And if you do not follow the directions of the official orginization, then you should not try to use their name or associate with them. If you trained with them, then they can never take that away. But if there is a chance that a person could walk into your studio and think they are under the control of someone else.... that is not a good thing. If you are not under the control of someone, either side might take the art in directions that the other does not like.

Your case is Hwarang-do. The creator (yeah, I believe he created it and did not learn it as he said) of the art has copyrighted the name. Kind of a scummy thing to do if he honestly thought it was a style that had a long history instead of something he created. But that is the law. Aikido was copyrighted in a South American country by someone with only a little training in the art, and my Japanese arts name is copyrighted in Canada by a person I do not hold in high regard. I think things like Yoshinkan should be copyrighted, but not aikido- unless it was the creator like Ueshiba.

From what I know of Hwarang-do, the guys that broke off are the honest ones.