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Phil Elmore
06-01-2005, 02:01 PM
In the years I have studied the martial arts I've had the privilege of working with some truly talented instructors. In my capacity as as publisher of The Martialist (http://www.themartialist.com), I've had the opportuntiy to meet and to interact with many more teachers and their students. Several of these men and women are people for whom I have great respect to this day. My experiences in the martial arts have been overwhelmingly positive. I have, however, also encountered some instructors and their students who suffered from serious character flaws.

The most common problem instructors face is, in my opinion, that of immaturity. The reason this flaw is so common is because all teachers suffer from it to some degree when they start. Everyone begins somewhere; no teacher springs to life from the forehead of another, fully formed and experienced. All teachers go through a learning process every bit as important, if not more so, than they did as students. To learn a skill and to impart it cogently to others are not the same thing. I have known less-than-gifted technicians who were very good at explaining to others how to do something correctly; I have known masters of the martial arts (that is my term, not theirs) who were terrible at teaching others; I have known competent teachers who had natural (and learned) skill in the craft of teaching, sometimes across multiple fields of endeavor. What all of them had in common was that they weren't as capable, as mature, or as confident as teachers when they started as when they'd been at it for several years.

Instructor maturity is not, however, primarily a function of hours logged in the dojo or kwoon. It is as much, if not more, a symptom of the instructor's personality. Some instructors, no matter how many years they spend teaching, will always be immature compared to others. There is no single, quantifiable scale against which to judge your instructor's maturity, but there are some warning signs of which you should be aware. If your instructor exhibits many of these symptoms, it might be time to consider finding another teacher. This can be quite difficult, because many of us venerate and respect our instructors, willingly overlooking their flaws. Our teachers are, after all, only human. While this is only too true, you cannot afford to suspend your process of critical thought where your martial education is concerned. To do so is to risk your own health, well-being, finances, and preparation for the future.

Warning Signs of Instructor Immaturity

Your Instructor Needs to Be The Toughest Guy in the Room. If your instructor cannot watch a group of students engage in a drill without getting in on that drill himself -- particularly if he has a reputation for beating hard on students when he does so -- it's because he needs to remind himself (and those watching and participating) that he's still tougher and better than his students. Students are often in awe of the skill level of their instructor and may excuse physical abuse on the grounds that the teacher is simply that much better (and thus doesn't mean to harm his students). Worse, such an instructor may justify physical abuse by saying that students need to know "what it feels like." Simply put, if your instructor is arrogant rather than humble -- and particularly if he compares himself favorably to others, puts down students' skills, or otherwise demeans his peers -- he's immature.


Your Instructor Pays Lip-service to "Respect" For Other Styles But Bashes Them and Their Practitioners. A teacher's immaturity is often expressed as a feeling of smug superiority where his style, his school, or his students are concerned. Anyone who chooses not to train with him is misguided, misinformed, or stupid. Any style that is not his own is inferior. Many immature instructors, because they understand how bashing other schools and styles sounds, will state officially that they have nothing but respect for other styles. They may even institute rules telling their students that members of the dojo, kwoon, or club are not to speak ill of other martial arts and practitioners. They will do this, however, while occasionally letting slip their true feelings, denigrating other programs and pupils to varying degrees of severity. This is a pattern of behavior that is not always immediately apparent. It sometimes takes a while for it to emerge fully and obviously to the student, especially if he or she is lulled by the instructors' contrary (but insincere) statements of tolerance.


Your Instructor is Offended or Threatened by the Work of Others. An immature teacher will react noticeably and obviously to articles, books, instructors, programs, and styles with which he disagrees. Hey may get so angry that he writes material to refute what has offended him, be these statements of general policy or formal rebuttals of someone else's essay or editorial. He may go out of his way to make it publicly known that he does not approve of the work, personality, or style in question. The key to differentiating this reaction from the emotions most reasonable people would experience when confronted with opposing opinions is the degree to which the instructor becomes irate.


Your Instructor Encourages Students to Accept Challenges From Other Schools' Practitioners. There are a lot of instructors out there who still see the martial arts as some sort of Bruce Lee movie or Sonny Chiba film festival. A lot of instructors who adhere to this "old school" philosophy of the arts believe that dojos and kwoons should still be policing themselves by gate crashing each others' premises and engaging in duels. Still others don't go out of their way to look for trouble, but believe when a challenge is offered (particularly on their own turf) that it should be accepted to prove the interloper a lesson and vindicate their claims and beliefs regarding the efficacy of their teaching. Challenge matches are stupid, immature, and potentially quite dangerous, particularly in our litigious society. Any instructor who would even entertain the idea of accepting such a challenge (or who would encourage a pupil to accept such a challenge) from a hostile party is a danger to himself and his students.


Your Instructor "Has a Temper." If your instructor is a hothead -- easily angered and perhaps even known for his temper -- he is not mature. Maturity in the martial arts brings with it an even-tempered nature that is evident in all good teachers to varying degrees. An instructor who cannot master his anger -- or, worse, an instructor who takes out his bad moods on his students through verbal or physical abuse -- has much to learn. He also has much to master about himself.


Your Instructor Regularly Makes a Fool of Himself Online. If your instructor acts like a troll (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm) on the Web, can't express himself well, or otherwise makes more enemies than he needs to make, some aspect of him is immature. There are a lot of gifted instructors out there who just can't cope with the nature of online discourse, so this isn't a definitive warning sign. If your instructor behaves in ways that make you ashamed to stick up for him, however -- or if you find yourself apologizing for him all the time -- there's a problem and you both know it.


Your Instructor Flirts with Students. If your instructor is careful not to behave inappropriately with students of the opposite (or the same) sex but nevertheless flirts with students to whom he or she is attracted, that is an aspect of immaturity. Many male teachers never overcome this tendency.


Your Instructor Doesn't Obey His Own Rules. If your instructor regularly sets rules for his students but is far less than perfect in demonstrating adherence to those rules, he's immature. It doesn't matter what the rules are (though I'm thinking here in terms of general conduct in the dojo or kwoon). If your teacher lives by the motto, "Do as I say, not as I do," he's got some growing up to do.

This list is by no means complete. There are many other facets of immaturity we could chronicle in compiling a list of symptoms. If I've managed to state my case lucidly, reading this list should give you a general feel for the personality and demeanor of someone who may be a talented martial artist -- but who might not be the most mature teacher you've met.

A mature instructor knows what he knows -- and he knows that he knows it. He is not concerned with what others are doing; he is only concerned with his own productive pursuits. He is humble, but not too modest. He is calm, friendly, and professional in his dealings with others -- even those with whom he disagrees. He speaks ill of no one without great provocation and speaks only reluctantly when he must be negative. He never denigrates a former or current student. He is as susceptible to accidents as any other teacher, but he is genuinely upset when a student is injured and strives to protect his students from physical harm in the course of training. Above all, he is patient and encouraging in that way that only a truly learned, truly mature teacher can be. A mature instructor has nothing to prove to anyone, doesn't care what others think of him, and doesn't waste his time with those who seek to challenge him. A mature instructor is someone in whom a student can place absolute trust.

To be an immature teacher is not necessarily to be a bad teacher. There are a great many instructors active in the martial arts and self-defense community who have much to learn about the craft of teaching -- and about themselves. Most of them will learn these things in time. They will look back with chagrine on the attitudes of their youth and they will do what they can to help other students and fellow teachers. Simply because your teacher exhibits one or two of the symptoms here does not mean you should drop him, abandon your school, and go in search of a wrinkled and Yoda-like exemplar of ancient wisdom and equanimity. If your teacher exhibits many of these signs, however -- or if he exhibits any one of them to an extreme degree -- please do reconsider what you are doing and where you are studying. You owe it to yourself -- and to your instructor -- to approach your studies with an active mind and a critical outlook.

To do less is to do yourself and your school a disservice.

Tgace
06-01-2005, 02:53 PM
Wow! Can see a lot of that around cant ya?

jfarnsworth
06-01-2005, 03:00 PM
(nods head) Interesting to see it in black and white print, aye?

Michael Billings
06-01-2005, 03:14 PM
Nice post and insight. You clarified what I think many people feel as "wrong", without being able to put their finger on it. Little of it is arguable, save for those students who married their teacher.

-Michael

Floating Egg
06-01-2005, 04:20 PM
Excellent post.

Miles
06-02-2005, 12:24 AM
An interesting post.

Your "bullet" points describe a person who is immature, not just an instructor.

You can have a mature instructor who is immature or unseasoned in the art of teaching. For example, I (like many others) know of instructors w/over 20yrs experience who try to teach too much too soon. This make it difficult for the students to digest and retain the material. Rank (demonstrated ability within an art) and teaching ability, as you indicate, are not necessarily commensurate.

Thanks for provoking some thought!

Miles

hammer
06-02-2005, 12:31 AM
Cool a great read, enjoyed the link's

Cheers.

Flatlander
06-02-2005, 12:48 AM
Great article Phil, thanks for contributing.

evenflow1121
06-02-2005, 01:26 AM
This is a very good post, one of my biggest turn offs when searching for a dojo are instructors that just have to bash every other system and glorify their own, it makes me feel like I am about to join a McDojo for some reason. sadly, I remember visiting a Kenpo School before I joined another one, and having the instructor say to me, i ll never forget this: 'The first thing I do is grab anyone with bb in another style and kick their tail from one side of the school to the other so they can find out real quick that they know absolutely nothing." Funny thing was later on I found out this guy was only awarded a green belt in Kenpo and claimed to teach both Epak and Tracy. I ve also seen not only younger, but older instructors flirt with their students, and my personal favorite, the instructor has to be the toughest guy in the room. You have no idea how many guys ive ran into that cant spar worth anything, and yet for some reason have to intimidate, disrespect, and beat the snot out of all their lower belt students in order to convince themselves that they are actually good at what they do.

Immature Instructors are very dangerous in my opinion, students can seriously get hurt by one of these crack pots. Further, I find that immature instructors do not teach their styles with a high quality level, they only teach what they feel confident in this due to a lack of their own self confidence. It does not necessarily have to be trendy, but I have found that most immature instructors had immature instructors at one time themselves.

Jonathan Randall
06-02-2005, 05:59 AM
Great post!

The only disagreement I might have is that such behavior is not a reflection of the instructor's personality, but rather of their CHARACTER.

Unfortunately, the martial arts tends to attract (along with dedicated individuals of good character) a, how shall I say it? Certain "element".

While most of the individuals you speak of teach with minimal real credentials and are either self-promoted to their high dan rankings or promoted from non-recognized groups, there are also, unfortunately, a number of traditional and legitimately ranked martial artists who also qualify as immature. In truth, the two greatest egomaniacs I have had the misfortune of meeting were highly trained, highly ranked martial artists from reputable styles and organizations.

On the other hand, this makes the true master (master both of the physical and MENTAL) so much rarer and valuable. I still kick myself for leaving a genuine Tai Chi master of tremendous character and ability in the 1980's because I wanted to study a "reality" based art. By the time I was MATURE enough to discover my stupidity he had passed away. Ignorant me - but live and learn.

Drac
06-02-2005, 07:17 AM
Outstanding post..Once attended a week long training seminar put on by yet another cutting edge police defensive tactics system..The 2 instructors there embodied every negative thing that post made reference too..

Don Roley
06-02-2005, 07:31 AM
I think the problem is that the martial arts with their image attract people who need to be the alpha male in the room all the time.

Not everyone in the martial arts are like this, but a good percentage that last to instructor level are made like this. The martial arts allow them to show that they are dangerous and to be feared by others. They get the respect they feel is their fair share.

Of course, it is not just one part of their personality that is compartmentalized like this. The guy that needs to be called master on the mat has to be deffered to off the mat as well. He needs to call the shots to those around him 24/7.

And thus you have all the problems associated with being an alpha male all the time. Flirting with student? How obvious can you get?

47MartialMan
06-02-2005, 07:31 AM
Warning Signs of Instructor ImmaturityYou forgot one;
When the Instructor received his black belt in two years of total training and opens a school right after claiming much experience

Spook
06-02-2005, 11:16 AM
Really great post! Thanks Phil.

searcher
06-02-2005, 03:09 PM
Awesome post! I am impressed with the depth of your article. Thanks for the insight. I am sure we will all have to step back and assess ourselves.

TigerWoman
06-02-2005, 04:48 PM
Another warning sign: An instructor/master who likes to manipulate people and feels enjoyment at doing so. However, forgets who he discussed the above with and trys to manipulate them. :rolleyes: TW

Andrew Green
06-02-2005, 04:55 PM
Pettiness, that seems to be what it all comes down to.

People that get all bent out of shape when someone says differently, people that like to brag about there rank and titles, people that take it personally when they loose, people that make a big deal out of nonsense, people that like to whine and complain about things but are willing to do nothing but whine and complain about them, etc.

Sam
06-03-2005, 12:16 AM
Outstanding post..Once attended a week long training seminar put on by yet another cutting edge police defensive tactics system..The 2 instructors there embodied every negative thing that post made reference too..Did you continue throughout the entire week, or leave early?
how did the other students react?

arnisador
06-07-2005, 03:38 AM
I've met all of those people...often they have quite a few of those characteristics.

Simon Curran
06-07-2005, 04:06 AM
Those characterisics (among others) were all displayed by a former head instructor our club trained under...
Needless to say we are much happier now

Dan G
06-08-2005, 09:01 PM
Great post from Sharp Phil, analytical, hits the mark, and also keeps positive... the redeeming feature of immaturity is that is that time and experience bring the opportunity for improvement and maturity. (Doesn't mean a student should wait around for it to happen though)

The post does a good job of highlighting the character issues that any martial artist should be aware of as they develop.

Dan

theletch1
06-09-2005, 06:18 PM
Wow, Phil, seems like you've trained with my first instructor. Had he not embodied all (and I mean all) of the attributes you put forth I'd never have gone looking for my current style and instructor...so, I suppose it all worked out for the best.

Ever notice how a lot of the folks that fall into this catagory have schools that continue over time but never seem to have any students (or many at least) that make it past yellow belt? Prospective students come in, are enamoured by the instructors hype, confuse bravado/ego for ability, sign up train for a while, make that first promotion, begin to talk to others in the MA community and realize that ALL instructors aren't like that and move on.

Don Roley
06-11-2005, 11:03 AM
How about this warning sign....

A person has a change in personality for a short while. I mean the guy sometimes acts like a troll on the internet, or gets angry and spitefull. Those type of things are kind of explained away with the excuse that the person, 'really is not like that.'

I disagree. I know people act one way when they think another. I just can't tell every last idiot I know that they are an idiot or I would have too many troubles. We have all seen it. We have all done it.

So people who act nice may not be nice. It may all be an act.

So maybe the blow ups on line or the person they turn into when mad or drunk is the person when they forget to act.

I recently was remembering a heated exchange I had with Robert Carver from Budoseek. I fouled up and he took me to task over the matter. But he never got nuts or lost control. Even though there was a very good reason I gave him for not liking me, he never took the argument to the personal level.

Compare that with all the folks who get just a little bit of prodding and all their nice mannerisms go out the window. People say that they were prodded into it. But if that person was not there under all the pleasent words, how could they turn into it?

I kind of like snarky people who have a reputation for telling stupid people that they are stupid. I know there is no act with them. They are not trying to tell me what they think I want to hear. They do not make many friends, but they are friends whom you always know are being honest with you.

Just a thought.

Jonathan Randall
06-12-2005, 03:25 AM
How about this warning sign....

So people who act nice may not be nice. It may all be an act.

So maybe the blow ups on line or the person they turn into when mad or drunk is the person when they forget to act.

I kind of like snarky people who have a reputation for telling stupid people that they are stupid. I know there is no act with them. They are not trying to tell me what they think I want to hear. They do not make many friends, but they are friends whom you always know are being honest with you.

Just a thought.So true. As Robert Heinlein wrote in "Podkayne of Mars"; "... never trust a person who's nice all the time...". Nice all the time is an act, and IMHO, the other person has a true agenda that they're not letting you see. Can you say passive agressive?

I think your point cuts to the chase about the difference between character and personality - personality being "charm", character substance.

However, if the "snarky" people of which you write are constantly abrasive and see most others than themselves as "idiots" - than the problem is with them regardless of their ability to cut through B.S.. I think the Golden Mean is best. You are up front when necessary but don't needlessly pick quarrels or have to run others down constantly.

arnisador
06-12-2005, 11:44 AM
I've always said that if your teaching doesn't meet disapproval from someone, you're doing something wrong. You're too bland to offend and so you're too bland to reach the heights you really could with those who do appreciate your teaching style.

Loki
06-13-2005, 10:32 AM
I'm not renewing anything here.

GREAT POST!!

Thanks for making it easier to understand the difference between a good instructor and a bad instructor.

~ Loki

Ceicei
06-13-2005, 07:23 PM
I've always said that if your teaching doesn't meet disapproval from someone, you're doing something wrong. You're too bland to offend and so you're too bland to reach the heights you really could with those who do appreciate your teaching style.
Interesting view. I'll have to think that over some more. How much rocking the boat is good and how much is too much?

- Ceicei

theletch1
06-15-2005, 03:47 PM
Interesting view. I'll have to think that over some more. How much rocking the boat is good and how much is too much?

- CeiceiI think there is a difference in rocking the boat to get your students to think outside their own preconceived boxes and being immature. I've met a couple of instructors that had "quirks" in their teaching style that I found were not exactly to my liking but they were'nt what I'd call immature.

Andrew Green
06-15-2005, 04:01 PM
Interesting view. I'll have to think that over some more. How much rocking the boat is good and how much is too much?

- Ceicei
More a matter of "why" then "how much". Doing it for no other reason then to rock it is not productive. But if there is good reason to rock it, then rock it. The most influential people are always the ones that rocked it the hardest. But the ones that get laughed at are the ones that rock it when they got nothing...

masterfinger
06-17-2005, 10:18 PM
One of the biggest examples of instructor immaturity are the "wannabe" instructors that go from art to art, never get a black belt or advanced ranking in anything, then become "founders" of their own system by mish mashing elements of what they picked up in their brief studies and make pronouncements as if they are authorities. These types are immature because they are satisfying a selfish egotistical desire to be a top dog without putting in the time to gain the knowledge that "real" founders/instructors worked so hard to earn.

Franco

arnisador
06-17-2005, 11:17 PM
Yeah, you see this all the time. They're often immature in the strict sense of being young, too. They have a vision of themselves as instructors, and they do it without investing the time to become real teachers. How many people have earned 5 green belts, then made up their own style? It's impatience and it's immaturity.

masterfinger
06-18-2005, 04:52 AM
Just curious Phil, what are your thoughts on these past two comments?

Franco

Shaolinwind
06-18-2005, 05:32 AM
The most common problem instructors face is, in my opinion, that of immaturity.
Part of your post is similar to a personal situation. When I was in TSD my Kyo Sa Nim was really offended when someone left TSD to take up a different system, and that person was "never welcome back in his dojang."

This also applied to new student who switched to TKD because it was a 2 block walking distance vs the 60 minute drive to get to TSD. This also most definitely applies to my wife and I for changing to Kung Fu. I guess I should thank him for reasurring me I made the right choice.

Don Roley
06-19-2005, 05:43 AM
Just curious Phil, what are your thoughts on these past two comments?

Franco

You are obviously trying to make Phil sound like his article.

The problem is, the article is about Instructor imaturity. Phil has never been an instructor. He wrote a pamphlet, but he does not have a dojo, does not teach students and is going to a silat school as a student on a weekly basis.

As for the pamplet, from people that have actually read it, it seems to be a collection of advice and such that begginers need. Things like the importance of being aware of your surroundings, the problems with hitting someone in the head with a closed fist, etc. Pretty much common sense stuff that you do not see in a lot of McDojos.

So in my opinion, Phil is not a head of an art, nor an instructor.

still learning
06-19-2005, 06:16 AM
Hello, I really enjoy reading your thoughts on understanding a Instructor Maturity or Immaturity! You are right on the money.

People can change if they want to? ( Improve themselves) Growing up sometimes takes time, or comes from some hard lessons we go thru in life.

In our school even our Professor has change alot. In his old days (storys of his life), Our Professor was a very tought guy and was involved in alot of fights. Today his preaches to care for everyone, avoid bad situtions,walk away and what have you done for your community.

Our training is always changing to the times and is growing to meet today world.

But our system can be brutal if need to be and like most of you it has different levels of self-defense to meet most situtions.

My own Instructor is always improving and set's very high standards for himself. Does not force this and is always encourging others to set their own high standards.

Growing up is not easy and our parents/adults/friends/teachers have influence our thoughts in our minds. So to grow up to maturity it may take time to change. .....still learning and growing......Aloha

Phil Elmore
06-19-2005, 09:27 PM
Being immature as an instructor -- chronologically, mentally, emotionally, whatever -- does not mean one is a bad instructor, either, at least not necessarily. I can think of two instructors from whom I've learned -- both of whom were gifted teachers -- who were at very different points on their training paths, one several decades older than the other. The older instructor clearly had more maturity, but both teachers were good ones and both taught me a lot.

Pale Rider
06-19-2005, 09:37 PM
I know of one instructor who definetly fits that criteria. Attacks people online, sets one standard for himself and regardless he finds faults in many.

masterfinger
06-20-2005, 06:57 AM
1)You are obviously trying to make Phil sound like his article.

2)So in my opinion, Phil is not a head of an art, nor an instructor.

1) Actually I wasn't. Since he started this thread, I was just wanting his opinion. And he was able to answer it on his own thank you. No biggie.

2) I was under the assumption that Phil co-founded Short Hand Empty Hand, and when you co-found a system, wouldn't you say he's at least the "co-head" of that system? As for him being an instructor, that was something I never assumed.

Phil wrote "Being immature as an instructor -- chronologically, mentally, emotionally, whatever -- does not mean one is a bad instructor, either, at least not necessarily."
Thanks for the answer Phil, just wanted your opinion, and I can accept that. We may not agree on some points, but I can see some of your points as valid.

Franco

Ubermint
06-28-2005, 05:28 AM
2) I was under the assumption that Phil co-founded Short Hand Empty Hand, and when you co-found a system, wouldn't you say he's at least the "co-head" of that system? As for him being an instructor, that was something I never assumed.
I have to agree. In fact, if what you are saying is true, that is the second system he has "co-founded". He also "co-founded" "Shang-Liang Li" QUOTATION MARK KEY BROKEN SEND NEW ONE.

In fact, Phil's accusations of immaturity are often themselves immature, leading to an endless Yin-Yang esque postmodern loop of Virtual Tough Guyism*

As he writes here:


I was watching Spike TV's Ultimate Fighter reality show, in which a group of would-be UFC/MMA competitors live in a house together while training and periodically fighting one another to see who is eliminated on a weekly basis. The participants in the show are fairly typical of the worst elements of the sportfighting crowd – vulgar jocks with the minds of children, who spend their time weeping, whining, and bickering with one another when they're not drunkenly punching through doors or pissing on each other's bunk beds. "There's no crying in the UFC," I complained to the television.

It is these child-men trapped inside the buff bodies of professional athletes who epitomize the Bullshido.com mentality. The sportfighting mindset is basically an immature and ego-driven outlook on life – the arrogant belief that one can be the strongest and the toughest (and that one proves so in competition against others) coupled with a deep and abiding insecurity about one's abilities.
And, on this very forum, on nonviolent-communication:


Some sort of commie-simp-pacifist thing?








*And yes, I realize the irony of denouncing Phil using a term he made up.

Phil Elmore
06-28-2005, 08:40 PM
:rolleyes:

Ubermint
07-01-2005, 08:16 PM
Is...is that all you have to say?

Sam
07-01-2005, 08:19 PM
could you stop bickering like teenage girls? Your ruining a perfectly good thread.

theletch1
07-02-2005, 11:25 AM
could you stop bickering like teenage girls? Your ruining a perfectly good thread.
Sam, are you accusing them of being "IMMATURE?" :ultracool If so, then the bickering fits perfectly with the thread as an example of how easy it is to find yourself sliding into a somewhat less than mature mindset sometimes.