Mc dojo

[hammer]

Fellow Martial Artist, we hear the term of a "Mc Dojo" quite often, Can we collectively define the term "Mc Dojo"??

Appreciate your input.

This thread is not intended to identify Mc Dojo's simply to define the term from your prospective and the associated characteristic’s of the great "Mc Dojo"

Looking forward to your responses

Cheers

Hammer

[Rob Broad]

Just read the post "Can I get fries with that" and you will have a pretty clear definition of a McDojo

[hammer]

Just read the post "Can I get fries with that" and you will have a pretty clear definition of a McDojoHey Rob, while true, I understand what you are referring to, yet dose that really define the term Mc dojo, or to identifying the characteristic’s of the great Mc Dojo.


OK

Dose having a chain of schools classify you as a Mc dojo?

Dose trying to up sell Club patches with a uniform make you a Mc dojo?

I was hopping for specifics, what the broader martial arts community defines and characterizes as a Mc dojo.

Cheers

[Brother John]

I think that the largest common denominator would have to be LOW standards and high ego.

Plain and simple.

your Brother
John

[terryl965]

Mc dojo to me means selling your Art and intigity for money, like making people advance as soon as possible because your on a contract and need to fleece the poor sap for another grand so you can go to Vegas and bet on 32 red. Also when we see people on Black Belt club or top team with flashy uniforms with all the bells and whistle's with little training when parent use them for babysitting instead of training.

[Andrew Green]

Fellow Martial Artist, we hear the term of a "Mc Dojo" quite often, Can we collectively define the term "Mc Dojo"??

Does things differently then my brain washing says they should be done.

That's basically it.

One persons "Perfect Dojo" is anothers "McDojo".

For some reason many people believe that all martial arts schools should be the same, and teach the same stuff, the same way and pay the bills the same way.

Some people want a after school program for there kids, now give a little tkd class in there and that will appeal to some more then daycare. Which makes sense. Would you rather send your kid to a daycare where they are doing things they'd ratehr not do, or send them to one that will give them a TKD class every day?

But for many people that right there is a sure sign of a McDojo.

I'd say its a sign of good business. There was a need for the service, the business provides it and makes money.

Same as someone that likes artsy subtitled low budget movies might use "mainstream" as a derogatory way to describe Big budget movies, people use "McDojo" to describe schools that cater to what the public wants, instead of some idealistic view of what they should want.

There is a need for a good number of approaches to martial arts training, and in varrying degrees.

[shane23ss]

I think that the largest common denominator would have to be LOW standards and high ego.

Plain and simple.

your Brother
JohnI agree with you here John. I think a "McDojo" could also be defined as those that are "fly by night". The type of schools that open for a while, promote a bunch of people then close and open somewhere else. The sad thing is that I know a few Kenpo schools that have done this.

[Gemini]

Mc dojo to me means selling your Art and intigity for money, I think this sums it up in a nutshell. There are certainly flags for a McDojo, but I think this is the one common attribute of all of them.

[dscott]

I think that a McDojo shouldn't be defined as one that has a chain like McDonalds but one that does it strictly for the money and fame. Some deciding factors to tell a McDojo are:

Kids with black belts
Mail order belts
Instructor with no credentials

[hammer]

Gent's ,
Thank you for your contributions to this thread, While we are all formiliar with the term Mc dojo opinions vary as to what is a Mc dojo, I have my own veiw's as to what is a Mc dojo and will post them later. Yet im sure they might change as this thread goes along.

Thankyou:asian:

[Rob Broad]

A McDojo is a place that sell ranks just to keep the student happy, they are belt mills producing high numbers of inferior ranks. Or worse they give belts away for things that have no relation to skill such as high grades in school.

While there is nothing wrong with a school owner making money at teaching especially if they offer high quality instruction, but when the love of the Dollar out weighs the love of the art you have just entered a Mc Dojo.

[hammer]

While there is nothing wrong with a school owner making money at teaching especially if they offer high quality instruction, but when the love of the Dollar out weighs the love of the art you have just entered a Mc Dojo.Thats cool , I like that

Cheers

[Andrew Green]

but when the love of the Dollar out weighs the love of the art you have just entered a Mc Dojo.
Thats business. If you can't pay the bills you can't teach, no matter how high the quality of instruction might be. If adding blcak belt clubs, patches, teams, young blackbelts, etc are required to pay the bills and keep the school open, then that is what is required to keep the doors open...

[bdparsons]

I would say when the quantity in the pocket is a higher priority than the quality on the mats you've got yourself a McDojo.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[bdparsons]

If you can't pay the bills you can't teach, no matter how high the quality of instruction might be.

Remember this is only true if the school is a commercial enterprise. I can teach anytime and anywhere. The question is do I have any expenses associated with that teaching.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[FearlessFreep]

I think Andrew has a point in that a lot of ways we think we know how MA should be taught and if someone teaches it 'differently' then it's easy to label them as a McDojo

I think the ony realy criteria should be intergrity. If you teach TKD as a sport for sport competition, and you are honest about that, that's fine. If yo only teach sport TKD and you claim it is good for self-defense, then that is dishonest.

If a school has a purpose, and that purpose is articulated honestly to the students and held to in the training, then there's really nothing to complain about. However, if the purpose is dishonestly represented or given short shrift in training, that's when you have a complaint.

[Andrew Green]

Remember this is only true if the school is a commercial enterprise. I can teach anytime and anywhere. The question is do I have any expenses associated with that teaching.

Yup, that you can. Right now I train in a park. Durring the winter we train out of a rented hall. I have also run a commercial school. So I've had a go at a few different methods ;)

A school can also charge very little / nothing and still be a bad school. Or it can charge lots, have all the fancy stuff, and still be a grea school.

For instructors that do this full-time as there only job they need to make a living at it. Same as someone working in a big Corporation. They want a stable income, a good income, and regular raises. Same as a person in any other job.

To do that you got to meet the needs of the clients. Thats the way business works. If these schools are making money and doing this stuff it is because that is what their customers WANT them to do.

So I guess I just have a hard time seeing why a business owner that listens to the customers and gives them what they want is a bad thing? If people didn't want these black belt clubs, patches, lots of belts, big classes, frequent promotions, child black belts, etc. These schools wouldn't have any customers. This is what most people want in martial arts training.

For those of us that want something different, well there is that too. But it seems kind of silly to blame all our problems on the people that do what the "mainstream" wants to pay for...

[Andrew Green]

I think the ony realy criteria should be intergrity.
Bingo!

As long as someone is honest about what they do, what's the problem?

"Exagerations" are to be expected though, just as in any other industry... But flat out lies are bad in any business.

[hammer]

Yup, that you can. Right now I train in a park. Durring the winter we train out of a rented hall. I have also run a commercial school. So I've had a go at a few different methods http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

A school can also charge very little / nothing and still be a bad school. Or it can charge lots, have all the fancy stuff, and still be a grea school.

For instructors that do this full-time as there only job they need to make a living at it. Same as someone working in a big Corporation. They want a stable income, a good income, and regular raises. Same as a person in any other job.

To do that you got to meet the needs of the clients. Thats the way business works. If these schools are making money and doing this stuff it is because that is what their customers WANT them to do.

So I guess I just have a hard time seeing why a business owner that listens to the customers and gives them what they want is a bad thing? If people didn't want these black belt clubs, patches, lots of belts, big classes, frequent promotions, child black belts, etc. These schools wouldn't have any customers. This is what most people want in martial arts training.

For those of us that want something different, well there is that too. But it seems kind of silly to blame all our problems on the people that do what the "mainstream" wants to pay for...Andrew, I value your input and agree with what you are saying with the view to have a school that is commerically viable. Mate not to word pick? Do you think that there is a difference between a student of the martial arts, and a customer or client??


Cheershttp://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif

[chris...]

I have some training but i've got no credentials, no club, no patches, no belts and I train people for free

[chris...]

teach sport TKD and you claim it is good for self-defense
self-defence in a TKD class, bit like learning how to use a swaord in a judo class

[hammer]

I have some training but i've got no credentials, no club, no patches, no belts and I train people for free
Well thats great , but tell me how dose that contribute to this thread??:rolleyes:

[Gemini]

self-defence in a TKD class, bit like learning how to use a swaord in a judo classor this.....

[evenflow1121]

A school that gives away rank

Where you are guaranteed a bb in a matter of time, no matter how terrible or how good a practitioner you must be, you will be a bb in 2 yrs because you will pay me $X amount every month at a belt promotion test where you have absolutely 99.9% chance of passing, because I am interested in your money, I mean you are just that good. Absolutely no sparring is allowed or any type of contact. A school that charges you for every last little thing and color coordinates uniforms with belts. If your school refers to nunchaku as numchucks. If the lower belts know the absolute same as the higher graded belts say what separates their knowledge is a form or something, but the techniques are the same at all levels.

[chris...]

or this??? this what?
i'm having a go at tkd that also teach different kinds of self defence while still claiming to be just tkd as opposed to tkd that just teach tkd, to me thats wrong, they should call there class tkd with self-sefence.

[Jerry]

I really don't tend to think of the term in relation to commercialization, though perhaps I should. To me the "McDojo" has sacrificed standards of skill (whether that's for competition, or fighting, or whatever). The school where a ranking has no real relation to the skill of the person holding it, is the one I generally think of as a "McDojo".

[Andrew Green]

Where you are guaranteed a bb in a matter of time, no matter how terrible or how good a practitioner you must be,
Well... many people argue that a belt isn't about skill, but about what material you have been exposed too. So, why not? Just take it for what it is worth.

Schools do this. The really smart and the not so smart students will usually graduate at the same time.

[Andrew Green]

Do you think that there is a difference between a student of the martial arts, and a customer or client??

Different people train for different reasons. I think that is a given. There is a difference between someone that wants to get in shape, socialize and maybe pick up some basic self-defence and someone that wants to fight competitively. Or someone that is interested in the history / theory / pressure points / etc, the more exotic "in your head" stuff.

But we are all customers, clients, and students.

"McDojo's" as they are called, can do great work. They might not turn out good fighters, but if they give kids focus, improve their attention span helping them get better grades, improve there self-discipline, get them more active, etc. I'd still say that is a good thing, especially if they enjoy doing it.

I do think that people will tend to gravitate towards training environments that focus on the things they are interested in, whether it is fighting, exotic PP KO's, meditation, fitness, confidence development or whatever. For many people the "McDojo" is the right place for them to train, thats what they want to spend there money doing.

[Bigshadow]

Here are my thoughts....

McDojo is a dojo that has fallen victim to greed where they have sacrificed the dignity and respect of their art for money. Much the same way corporations sacrifice the dignity and respect of their employees and their word for money... Much the same way a prostitute sacrifices her dignity and respect for money.

There are many respectable ways to make money. I understand what these instructors who have posted are saying (we have to make money). Yes, I agree, so do I. But if it is going to demean and diminish the very art you are trying to teach by commercializing it, then maybe it was not meant to be that way. True seekers will find you. Maybe you will not be able to do that full time as a job. Maybe have to work a full-time job like other people and teach in the spare time.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Best regards,
David

[Andrew Green]

True seekers will find you.
Subjective, many people WANT the commercial style environment over the small club, that is why they are so big.

So if people want this sort of training, and it is good for them, and they know what they are getting, what exactly is the problem?

[Kempogeek]

I think that a McDojo shouldn't be defined as one that has a chain like McDonalds but one that does it strictly for the money and fame. Some deciding factors to tell a McDojo are:

Kids with black belts
Mail order belts
Instructor with no credentials
I believe this school in California could be called a "McDojo". I've seen on their website a section where they list their black Belt graduates from previous years. Every October they have a "Black Belt Spectacular" exam for the candidates at a hotel ballroom. Anyway I've seen alot of kids that under 16 y/o and some even under 10 y/o receive their black belts, a few 2nd degree. Another head scratcher, there's one candidate who is going for her 2nd degree black belt a year after getting her black belt. Yet there's another candidate who is going for the same rank 3 years after making BB. Sounds like a McDojo to me. Just my 2 cents.......Steve

[Andrew Green]

Every October they have a "Black Belt Spectacular" exam for the candidates at a hotel ballroom.
Sounds like Graduation... Bet the participants and parents love it.

[dscott]

I know you said you didn't want this to turn into reporting a McDojo but this is precisely what I was talking about:

http://www.karateamerica.com./files/Pages/Black%20Belts/Black%20Belts.htm#

[MJS]

Fellow Martial Artist, we hear the term of a "Mc Dojo" quite often, Can we collectively define the term "Mc Dojo"??

Appreciate your input.

This thread is not intended to identify Mc Dojo's simply to define the term from your prospective and the associated characteristic’s of the great "Mc Dojo"

Looking forward to your responses

Cheers

Hammer

1- A belt factory

2- A place where they care more about the money over the development of the students.

3- A place where you have a 8 yo 3rd degree BB.

4- A place that is more concerned with the 'flashy stuff' rather than teaching some quality Martial Arts.

5- A place that will rank you without you having to be there to test.

I'm sure there are more, but the above is what comes to mind right now.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

4- A place that is more concerned with the 'flashy stuff' rather than teaching some quality Martial Arts.

What about quality flashy stuff?

[MJS]

What about quality flashy stuff?

What exactly did you have in mind? I guess it would all depend on what the student was looking for.

Mike

[Bigshadow]

Subjective, many people WANT the commercial style environment over the small club, that is why they are so big.

So if people want this sort of training, and it is good for them, and they know what they are getting, what exactly is the problem? Actually, it isn't exactly a problem when they know what they are getting.

Ironically, many don't realize what they are getting. What they think they are getting and what they are getting are many times entirely different. I know from my own personal experience as a parent of a child who attended what I call a McDojo. I was unaware of how things worked until we were approaching the "camo belt". Anyway, it was not what I thought it was in the beginning. However, the instructor was very good and I could tell his heart was in the teaching, but he was not the owner. I saw many parents there and later they too went the way I did. What they got was not what they expected.

Unfortunately, I think the instructor took the student turn-over as a personal thing. I feel bad for him.

There are many other problems I saw there, but I am not going to publicly discuss them.

Fortunately, I am at a point in my training, that *I* can teach my child.

[hammer]

I know you said you didn't want this to turn into reporting a McDojo but this is precisely what I was talking about:

http://www.karateamerica.com./files/Pages/Black%20Belts/Black%20Belts.htm#Dscott , thankyou for sharing with us , and perhaps you are 100% right?

Yet This thread is not intended to identify "Mc Dojo's' simply to define the term from your prospective and the associated characteristic’s of the great "Mc Dojo" and sure a picture speaks a thousand word's, although in the interest of keeping this thread non political and constructive as per topic.

Could you kindly edit your post a remove the link. And true I can understand the temptation to post such a link.( lol)

All good cheers

[Brother John]

Earlier I said that I think "Lowered standards" was the most common denominator for the Mc Dojo. Still think so.
BUT: Also I think they not only lower their standards in the interest of business and glamour, but I think that many of them have misplaced values:
Valuing rank over knowledge/ability/insight.
Valuing titles over earned respect.
Valuing the fancy over the foundational.
Valuing reputation over integrity.

Unfortunately, I've seen many of these things first-hand...and it turns my stomach.

For some reason many people believe that all martial arts schools should be the same, and teach the same stuff, the same way and pay the bills the same way.
I have Nothing against people doing things their own way for their own reasons. I think it's what I like about learning about different martial arts the most: but these shifted values....I don't think there's a good argument for them.

Just me thinkin....

Your Brother
John

[kroh]

Hey All,

I think Andrew makes some valid points and so do a lot of the other people who have voiced their opinions. Many have said that "McDojoism" scarifices combative ability for mass market skill. Andrew has stated in numerous ( and might I say the most convincing Mcdojo arguments ) posts that these business owners are merely giving their clients what they want. I think this is the crux of the problem where Mcdojoism comes into play.

There are a lot of threads on this and other forums about swords. Paul Chen, a manufacturer who's China 'Hanwei' Forge has produced some Japanese style low cost cutting blades that get the job done but without all the extra hooplah of the high priced blades. Are they as good as the high end blades...no. Also, there are companies out there that produce stainless steel versions of these same swords...will they cut a human...yes, will they probably shatter on impact with anything harder than a foam pool noodle...yes, are they as good as the real thing ( for many reasons which would take up an entire thread )...no.

The PoInT: These commercial schools that teach only tournament play and gymnastic routines should let all involved know that they are not teaching martial arts. While these programs might teach all the things that Andrew spoke of (integrity, focus, and discipline), it is like the stainless steel katana sword. It looks like the real thing and might feel like the real thing but when it comes time to being tested...it is NOT the real thing. This is only an opinion mind you, but it seems to be a tested one. If you take some one who has trained for five years for an hour a day, three days a week at one of these "family" run school businesses and say they had to fight a person who trained every day for four or more hours a day in Muay Thai Boran or Western Boxing... the "family" fighter would more than likely loose unless he brought something in gun metal blue or with the words "cold steel" on the side.

I think many of these supposed Mcdojo schools have a lot of merit. Many of them keep kids out trouble and get mom or dad out of the house. Many of the tournament champions they produce put on a great show and never fail to entertain. Many are the clients of these places have gotten in great shape and have gone from couch potatoe to dedicated artist. But they cannot fight. They might sware up and down that their skills are valid and they can hold their own...but just because some one says something is true doesn't mean that it is.

I very well could be wrong. I could be a party to one of these schools. All my training up to this point could be crap and I might be just one of those looney nutjobs trying to get his opinion out there. The fact of the matter is, i don't train to be a gymnast or point fighter, and I don't really care about most other people's opinion of my training. I train because I enjoy it and that is really what it comes down to.

Mcdojoism is a point of view. If one truely wants to say that he is training in a real fighting system, you must join the military or police force or train with some one who has. But martial arts is more than just kicking butt with the latest gear/weapons and that is where some of these schools come in.

Am I defending Mcdojos? No... Will I train some where where they are not learning to forcefully control another human being ( controll being by impact, bending or at gun point), no. I will support anyone who decides to train anywhere as long as they are getting off the couch. In time...they will find what they are really looking for and stay a while. Anything else ( including this long A$$ rant) is just an opinion.

Thanks for the minute,
Walt :asian:

[Shorin-ryu Sensei]

Here are my thoughts....


There are many respectable ways to make money. I understand what these instructors who have posted are saying (we have to make money). Yes, I agree, so do I. But if it is going to demean and diminish the very art you are trying to teach by commercializing it, then maybe it was not meant to be that way. True seekers will find you. Maybe you will not be able to do that full time as a job. Maybe have to work a full-time job like other people and teach in the spare time.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Best regards,
David

The perhaps other professionals, i.e., doctors, accountants, etc., should have other full-time jobs and practice what they spent years learning in their collective spare time. Most of us who teach have spent over 25 years learning and perfecting our training and trade, and are on par with other "professional" occupations and should be paid accordingly. If you ever find a lawyer who charges you $6.50 an hour let me know because it'll be the most amazing thing in the world. Point: doctors, lawyers, etc. have made a large investment in their professions, as we have as martial artists/instructors ........ there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with placing ourselves on the same level as the other professions ... respect as well as financially.

[Aegis]

Yes, a lawyer who charges $6.50 an hour would be quite impressive. But would you be willing to pay a lawyer his regular fee if he was also dealing with 30 other people at the exact same time?

I've heard many comparisons made between, say, martial arts lesson and music lessons, where it is possible that you will pay £15 for a one-hour music lesson, so why make a fuss about paying the same for martial arts training. Well, the real reason is that in a music lesson the teacher is giving you his undivided attention for the full hour. In a group class, the attention is divided, so you should be paying less. If you work on equivalent rates, the martial arts class of 15 students should be paying £1 to make the total amount paid for time equal in that case. However, there are also outgoings and equipment purchases, so £2 per hour would probably be reasonable if the dojo hire fee isn't too high.

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification for them in many cases (going back to the lawyer example, he will be doing a lot of work in the background, researching the case, looking at the opponents, etc, most of which you won't see).

Doctors and other professionals work very long hours fort he pay they get. Some martial arts clubs I've seen on the net must be making almost the same in a single 90 minutes class as a professional could make in a day. Not really necessary IMO. But then I don't see martial arts as a money-making venture.

[Andrew Green]

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification

Then you haven't done the math on a commercial school...

Overhead is high, and the students have to pay it, as well as the instructors salary.

The comparisson to music teachers snd fees doesn't work as the costs are different.

In a 1000 sq ft building you can have several 1 on 1 sessions going. They don't need much space. In a martial arts class 1000 sq ft will give you a small area to train 1 small class.

Also consider the level of training and expertise required. A good many music teachers are students, working part time. In the martial arts world this often gets called a mcdojo trait.

A better comparisson would be to dance schools.

[Rob Broad]

Then you haven't done the math on a commercial school...

Overhead is high, and the students have to pay it, as well as the instructors salary.

The comparisson to music teachers snd fees doesn't work as the costs are different.

In a 1000 sq ft building you can have several 1 on 1 sessions going. They don't need much space. In a martial arts class 1000 sq ft will give you a small area to train 1 small class.

Also consider the level of training and expertise required. A good many music teachers are students, working part time. In the martial arts world this often gets called a mcdojo trait.

A better comparisson would be to dance schools.

Where I live the average price for commercial property is $6.00 - $15.00 a square foot. To have enough space to run a class you need either a high volume of students or high fees just to pay the rent. Then there is utilities, insurance, advertising etc..... it all adds up and gets quite expensive.

Personally I would rather have a medium sized school, with mid range prices, and scrtape by each month, than over charge my students.

[Aegis]

If you have your own martial arts building then yes, you might have problems there. Which is why most martial arts clubs that I've ever seen rent space to use for the times that their lessons are scheduled for rather than rent a large space full-time and have to make up the costs from a single lesson a day.

[Andrew Green]

Is it overcharging if you are paying the bills and drawing a fair salary? Or under charging if they pull up in new SUV's and you work a second job to make ends meet?

" If you have your own martial arts building then yes, you might have problems there."

But that is the point isn't it. Music schools have their own building, dance schools do, Lawyers got thier own offices. A full time location offers many benefits over renting space a couple nights a week. But you pay for those benefits. If you don't want them, don't train there. But some people DO want them, and why should they not get them because some people feel all martial arts instructors should be poor?

[Aegis]

If it's a fair salary, then fine. For example, if the instructor is working the equivalent of a part time job and pulling in a reasonable salary, then no problem. However, if an instructor is charging so much that he can pull in a high salary with only a couple of 2-hour classes a week, or a similar amount of effort put in on his part, then no, I don't think it's fair for that instructor to be charging what he does.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

[bdparsons]

"Exagerations" are to be expected though, just as in any other industry... But flat out lies are bad in any business.

My question would be, "What exaggerations are acceptable?" It seems to me that when selling martial arts instruction the only one I can think of is misrepresenting to the student that their skill level is more than it actually is. This can be done silently by passing the individual to belt levels not commensurate with their skill -or- verbally by reassuring them that what they're learning will certainly "be effective" when they need it. Note that I said "martial arts instruction", not aerobics, baby-sitting class, etc.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[Andrew Green]

If it's a fair salary, then fine. For example, if the instructor is working the equivalent of a part time job and pulling in a reasonable salary, then no problem. However, if an instructor is charging so much that he can pull in a high salary with only a couple of 2-hour classes a week, or a similar amount of effort put in on his part, then no, I don't think it's fair for that instructor to be charging what he does.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them.
I'd like to meet any small business owner that can pull a high salary off a few hours a week work...

Most commercial schools have 3-5 classes a day, 6 days a week.

Plus time spent on bookkeeping, maintaince, intaking students, class planning, marketing, etc.

A 40 hr work week is a vacation for a school owner ;)

[bdparsons]

Point: doctors, lawyers, etc. have made a large investment in their professions, as we have as martial artists/instructors ........ there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with placing ourselves on the same level as the other professions ... respect as well as financially.

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your expertise, if that is what you choose to do. However, I think the line is crossed into "McDojoism" when the pursit of the dollar (or pound, yen, won, etc.) results in the lowering of any standards while maintaining the facade of quality instruction.

If one were to be honest when this happens, what would you say? "I'd really like to have things at an overall higher skill level in our school. But you see to make the bottom line a number I'm comfortable with I need to teach more folks so that means you'll get less for your money."

Let me be very specific here. The definition of a McDojo is not "a large martial arts school". There are countless large schools who offer numerous programs and turn out very high quality students.

A McDojo, in my opinion, is a school of any size that purports to give quality martial arts instruction and... a) primarily focuses on getting the most amount of money for the least amount of martial arts teaching effort (however that's structured) and b) leads their customers to believe their skill level in the martial arts is higher than it is.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[hammer]

Yes, a lawyer who charges $6.50 an hour would be quite impressive. But would you be willing to pay a lawyer his regular fee if he was also dealing with 30 other people at the exact same time?

so why make a fuss about paying the same for martial arts training. Well, the real reason is that in a music lesson the teacher is giving you his undivided attention for the full hour. In a group class, the attention is divided, so you should be paying less. If you work on equivalent rates, the martial arts class of 15 students should be paying £1 to make the total amount paid for time equal in that case. However, there are also outgoings and equipment purchases, so £2 per hour would probably be reasonable if the dojo hire fee isn't too high.

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification for them in many cases (going back to the lawyer example, he will be doing a lot of work in the background, researching the case, looking at the opponents, etc, most of which you won't see).

Doctors and other professionals work very long hours fort he pay they get. Some martial arts clubs I've seen on the net must be making almost the same in a single 90 minutes class as a professional could make in a day. Not really necessary IMO. But then I don't see martial arts as a money-making venture.Hey dude,

I respectfully disagree with the majority of your post.



I've heard many comparisons made between, say, martial arts lesson and music lessons, where it is possible that you will pay £15 for a one-hour music lesson,
Doh!
Private tuition will always be higher in value. Maybe dancing lesson's and aerobic class might be a better comparisons between $10-$15 per session.



If you work on equivalent rates, the martial arts class of 15 students should be paying £1 to make the total amount paid for time equal in that case. However, there are also outgoings and equipment purchases, so £2 per hour would probably be reasonable if the dojo hire fee isn't too high.
You think! Many instructors devalue themselves and only charge a token fee, How can you put a price on experience, blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention the personal sacrifice and associated cost's, additionally any further education or study either academic or art orientated.



I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification for them in many cases (going back to the lawyer example, he will be doing a lot of work in the background, researching the case, looking at the opponents, etc, most of which you won't see).
An Instructor dosn't!!!, No lesson plan's , No constant concern and thoughts for his students individual development, no consistant practice and maintainence of the art, no futher study to benifit his students, Adiministation, plus the countless hours giving of his time, most of which you don't see.

Who is to say what one should charge , it is always your choice!!!
Lets face it, if your giving it away the there is no percived value and is treated as a novelitiy, even if the club is non profit it still as cost's.


Doctors and other professionals work very long hours fort he pay they get. Some martial arts clubs I've seen on the net must be making almost the same in a single 90 minutes class as a professional could make in a day. Not really necessary IMO. But then I don't see martial arts as a money-making venture
True, yet if the instructor is a profesional, has dedicated some 20 years, to his art, Is providing qualitiy instruction, and facilities, equipment, then he can charge like a professional, it is your choice.

but none of the above indicates to a Mc dojo, nor is on topic.

Cheers

[Andrew Green]

If one were to be honest when this happens, what would you say? "I'd really like to have things at an overall higher skill level in our school. But you see to make the bottom line a number I'm comfortable with I need to teach more folks so that means you'll get less for your money."

But then the question will be, should martial arts be restricted to those that are willing to train at that higher level? Getting to a higher skill level means pushing people harder, more intense training. Many people don't want to go that level, does that mean they shouldn't be doing anything?

Should "Beer" baseball leauges and flag football leagues be removed as they are "watered down" versions of the "real" sports? Should Cardio Kickboxing be banned because there is no hard sparring and fights?

Some people actually WANT the watered down version, that is what they are comfortable with. It is still beneficial, it still keeps them active, they have fun doing it and it makes this sport of ours a little more mainstream. Anyone that wants to train harder and spar hard will seek out a place that does that.

[Aegis]

I'd like to meet any small business owner that can pull a high salary off a few hours a week work...

Most commercial schools have 3-5 classes a day, 6 days a week.

Plus time spent on bookkeeping, maintaince, intaking students, class planning, marketing, etc.

A 40 hr work week is a vacation for a school owner ;)And with that sort of workload, I would have no issue with the instructor taking home a reasonable profit. As you say, he has to have enough money to live.

An example of what I see as wrong is a kung fu class that trains in the same building as one of my jujutsu clubs. We charge £2 per 2-hour session, and the instructor teaches for free. We wouldn't begrudge him charging more and taking home some money from each session, but he doesn't.

The kung fu class after us runs for 1 hour or maybe 90 minutes on some days, and the students get charged about £7 each. We have 1 instructor and a fairly small class, they have 1 instructor and a fairly big class. My question is why? They don't use any equipment and they pay the same room rent as we do, yet thay're paying somewhere int he region of five times what we do despite having the exact same outgoings. The money goes straight to their instructor, who takes probably over £100 PROFIT from each of these 1.5 hour sessions.

That's what I mean when I say charging too much, not someone who teaches full time and gets the equivalent of a full-time salary.

[Aegis]

Hey dude,

I respectfully disagree with the majority of your post.
Cool :)


Doh!
Private tuition will always be higher in value. Maybe dancing lesson's and aerobic class might be a better comparisons between $10-$15 per session.
I'm not from the US, so I have no idea if that would be considered a good price or not there! I know that if I was asked to pay £7-10 for a 1-hour aerobics lesson here, I'd probably not bother and find something else, and it would be a similar situation with martial arts for me. (not that I like aerobics or dancing, so it's a bit of an unfair comparison still ;))

You think! Many instructors devalue themselves and only charge a token fee, How can you put a price on experience, blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention the personal sacrifice and associated cost's, additionally any further education or study either academic or art orientated.


An Instructor dosn't!!!, No lesson plan's , No constant concern and thoughts for his students individual development, no consistant practice and maintainence of the art, no futher study to benifit his students, Adiministation, plus the countless hours giving of his time, most of which you don't see.
Students shouldn't have to pay for their instructor to further his own martial arts practice. If he's in it for the love of the art, he'd be doing that whether they paid him or not. Worry and concern for work matters go with every job, more so with professionals. You don't get paid extra for worries in industry, so why in martial arts? And as for lesson plans? I acknowledge that those take some preparation, but each lesson plan should take considerably less time to write than the length of the class, so you could maybe put in some small scaling factor to the length of the classes. If we're talking a lot of classes, it's a lot of extra work, if it's not a lot of classes, it's not much extra work at all.


Who is to say what one should charge , it is always your choice!!!
Lets face it, if your giving it away the there is no percived value and is treated as a novelitiy, even if the club is non profit it still as cost's.
Indeed, as I mentioned in my last post, my jujutsu clubs are non-profit, our instructors get nothing financial out of their lessons, and we still charge to cover our club costs.

I think the real problem is that people sometimes assume that paying more = better class, which is why the higher cost classes tend to survive. Using the kung fu example again, I asked one of my colleages in that jujutsu class why people were prepared to pay so much more for a class that does no contact sparring or any description, no realistic self defence training and no real fitness work either. His reply was "Probably because you don't get hurt or tired, and you get told your unstoppable but never ahve to prove it". Made sense in a horrible way...

[hammer]

If it's a fair salary, then fine. For example, if the instructor is working the equivalent of a part time job and pulling in a reasonable salary, then no problem. However, if an instructor is charging so much that he can pull in a high salary with only a couple of 2-hour classes a week, or a similar amount of effort put in on his part, then no, I don't think it's fair for that instructor to be charging what he does.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them
Cool, But that is rubbish, Ok you lock yourself out of your house, no spare key. So you call a locksmith, cost $ 60 for the service call. When he arrives, it takes him, honestly not even a minute, and charges you another $30 to open the door. $ 90 in total. (true story)

You cannot devalue the service of a professional

and a Professional Instructor is no different.!!!

It is your choice!

Cheers.

[hammer]

Aegis, sorry mate I am a slow typest, so I missed your last post prior to posting mine . lol

All good:)

[Aegis]

Cool, But that is rubbish, Ok you lock yourself out of your house, no spare key. So you call a locksmith, cost $ 60 for the service call. When he arrives, it takes him, honestly not even a minute, and charges you another $30 to open the door. $ 90 in total. (true story)

You cannot devalue the service of a professional

and a Professional Instructor is no different.!!!

It is your choice!

Cheers.
Don't get me started on people like that either! ;)

One reason I make sure I never lock myself out of my house or my car... Because it would cost an absolute fortune to get back in!

[hammer]

Don't get me started on people like that either! ;)

One reason I make sure I never lock myself out of my house or my car... Because it would cost an absolute fortune to get back in!It happen to me twice in a week , Even the locksmith thought it was funny only cost me $60 the second time.
LOL

Cheers

[Andrew Green]

Students shouldn't have to pay for their instructor to further his own martial arts practice.

Paying for professional development is not that uncommon. Companies send employees on courses, to seminars all the time. In a teaching role even more so. University instructors get a good deal of paid research time, and recieve money to carrry it out.

Teachers also get paid prep periods.

"For the love of the art" is a nice ideal, but not something that works for everyone.

There is also considerable risk in opening a business of any kind. It is not like taking a job at a well established business. School owners risk everything, there homes, cars, everything they own. If it goes bad they go bankrupt. Not to mention vacations are likely never going to happen, no free evenings, usually working through the weekend.

Someone that does this, puts everything on the line, works ridiculous hours to teach their art, deserves a good sized salary.

If you like the small group of hobbiests approach thats great, but that is not the only approach. Others might want a more commercial / professional approach, let them have it.

[kroh]

One thing to consider is to look at the service being offered. If it is a dojo that doesn't teach fighting arts but rather performance art ( no impact training, just solo kata (forms) practice, or light touch sparring only with no practical applications of the system used in the school), lesson cost should probably range much along the lines of a low end gymnastics school or dance studio. A place with strong commercial interests versus combat interests will probably have more students in it and can conceivably charge less.

A problem can occour when an instructor / businessman gets a taste of the green ( or whatever every one else's currency looks like) and starts charging more for a service because his students feel trapped. Having put in the time to learn the lessons being offered, those looking to learn a professional rank in the system might feel that unless they stay and pay the higher fees and finish their "martial education," that said time up to that point was wasted. This would be a clear cut indication of McDojoism at it's finest. Not that the instructor couldn't charge for his teaching but to overcharge would be a travesty.

It all comes down to supply and demand. If the demand is there for competant combative instruction...there wouldn't be this thread. And to look at the cost of one batch of instruction versus another can give figures ranging from pennies to pounds. It is so subjective it is hard to measure. And also consider that when the martial arts were in their heyday...they weren't being offered as a "service" to the masses. They were furnished by the wealthy to train their fighting force. The Landlords payed the way much like our taxes pay for military instruction. If I were to open up a camp and take people for 15 weeks (almost four months) and tell you I would train you in modern combatives including firearms training and tactics, infantry deployment, and surgical demolitions, all for the bargain price of 150,000 dollars...you would laugh at me and tell me that I was nuts. There would be no way most would be willing to pay for for something like that. But that is what our taxes pay for every soldier trained in the U.S.

True martial arts training is not for the masses. They don't have or want that kind of discipline. I am not talking about self defense. I am talking about training day in and out for hours a day to defend or take life through force and be spectacular at it. A lot of time martial artists see these weekday warriors and label where they go Mcdojo's when in fact all these people want is someplace to burn off stress and learn a few things that could get them out of a jam so they can dial 9-1-1. The Martial Artists around say that is not true martial arts and because the instructor is making a living off of it the instruction is crap. That's fine...but what are these martial artists doing with all this killing knowledge?

The hobiest only wants to have martial arts if they need it. Like the "i need it for protection" gun owner. Most will have a .380, .38, or maybe a 9 mm. The protective gun owner is not going to go and buy and HK MP-5 and carry it on a shoulder strap. They have it for what they need it for. What are the HK owners doing with what they have. If you train at a fighting school, why are you training? What are you doing with the skills? Some fight for money...others....they just ...train? Why develop a skill you will never use? Why are the people from the non-McDojo's not signing up in droves to fight for something they believe in?

One of the martial arts I used to study had a teaching that said, "Strength and Love stand together". A person with love for his fellow man and no capacity to help him is not a usefull member of society. A man with strength and no love is nothing but a thug. So if we as competant fighters and martial artists have all this skill to stop violence...are we no better than the Mcdojo because we don't do anything with what we know?

Regards,
Walt

[Bigshadow]

there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with placing ourselves on the same level as the other professions ... respect as well as financially. I agree with you... Maybe I didn't articulate very well what I was thinking. Try this... There is an oath of conduct that a doctor has to take. In nearly all cases when you go to the doctor, you can be confident that you are getting the real thing. Same goes for Attorneys. However... In the case of the McDojo, the customer may not be getting what they expect. If the owner/instructor diminishes the art to sell it to the masses (to get record sales and revenue), then in my opinion that is McDojo. On the other hand, if the owner/instructor franchises a chain of dojos that genuinely teaches a particular art and upholds the integrity of the art, then that is not a McDojo, in my opinion.

In my opinion there is confusion between commercial viability and prostitution.

[Bigshadow]

Some people actually WANT the watered down version, that is what they are comfortable with. It is still beneficial, it still keeps them active, they have fun doing it and it makes this sport of ours a little more mainstream. Anyone that wants to train harder and spar hard will seek out a place that does that. That is fine! As long as people are aware of what they are getting. But I have seen many "Sally Soccer Moms" and "Joe Sixpacks" come to a McDojo and think their little boy or girl is going to learn "Self Defense" (that does not work), "Martial Arts" and really just gets a baby sitting class where the kid gets very little instruction because there are way too many kids in the class and the class is only 45 minutes long and is hardly enough for any real training and they close out the class with a game of "dodge ball?" burning up the last 10 to 15 minutes of class.

IMHO that is not what many expect for their money.

[Bigshadow]

Cool, But that is rubbish, Ok you lock yourself out of your house, no spare key. So you call a locksmith, cost $ 60 for the service call. When he arrives, it takes him, honestly not even a minute, and charges you another $30 to open the door. $ 90 in total. (true story)

You cannot devalue the service of a professional

and a Professional Instructor is no different.!!!

It is your choice!

Cheers.
I would like to know how many opportunities a locksmith gets to make money on any given day. IMO, I think that a locksmith does not have a steady income, therefore he/she would have to charge an outrageous price for each opportunity to be able to make a living at it. Or, on the other hand, he/she is preying on the customer, like a vulture and we know there are plenty of vultures out there (tow truck service?).

[Andrew Green]

That is fine! As long as people are aware of what they are getting. But I have seen many "Sally Soccer Moms" and "Joe Sixpacks" come to a McDojo and think their little boy or girl is going to learn "Self Defense" (that does not work), "Martial Arts" and really just gets a baby sitting class where the kid gets very little instruction because there are way too many kids in the class and the class is only 45 minutes long and is hardly enough for any real training and they close out the class with a game of "dodge ball?" burning up the last 10 to 15 minutes of class.

IMHO that is not what many expect for their money.
Got a problem with Dodgeball? :D Thats how we usually transition from kids to adult class. Adults vs Kids in a couple rounds of dodgeball.

"Self-defence" is also a funny thing to define what works and what doesn't. There are a lot of people that would say ninjitsu is a silly hobby that has no value in "real" fighting.

It does. More then some other systems, less then others.

So they are learning stuff that could work as self-defence. Most effective stuff and methods out there? No, but thats not the point. Arts that try to sell themselves purely on effectiveness are doomed right from the beginning.

Anybody that takes there training seriously enough will look at more then one source. They will search out and find the class that suits them. But for most people that are training they are right where they want to be, doing what they want to do, paying for what they want to pay for.

Internet forums are not a good place to judge the "main" views on what training should be. They represent a small majority of practitioners that have interests exceeding most of the people that are training. Most people also have a fairly good understanding of what they are actually capable of.

The most confused, "invincible warrior" type of people that I've seen have not been from big commercial schools, but from small groups of "elitists" that think they are above the masses and train in a "traditional" style.

[OC Kid]

The critera I use to define a McDojo is this:

The warning signs:
They say they are the best.
They put you under long term contracts with high fees.
They have a lot of belts and charge lot for the testing.
You have to use their uniforms, their gear which they sell at a huge mark up.
I know a guy who ran a McDojo he said it didnt matter what art they wanted to learn..you taught it anf get them under contract. he said also thatt once they get a certain rank then you change the uniform maybe by addinf black pants or top with different patches and charge them for that.
The thing is to continually charge the student for things nickle and dime them w/o provideing them any substance.
Once you start training with them you cant train wiith anyone else.
The school is run by a mastah say a 25 y.o. 10th degree.
They teach a variety of arts everything from karate to jujitsu incl.tai bo.
They have no known linage.
Some claim to be ex special forces..or cia ect

Its not anyone thing but it is a multiple of things.

Most important after all that I wrote is the art is substandard.
Well thats my opinion

[bdparsons]

But then the question will be, should martial arts be restricted to those that are willing to train at that higher level? Getting to a higher skill level means pushing people harder, more intense training. Many people don't want to go that level, does that mean they shouldn't be doing anything?

Should "Beer" baseball leauges and flag football leagues be removed as they are "watered down" versions of the "real" sports? Should Cardio Kickboxing be banned because there is no hard sparring and fights?

Some people actually WANT the watered down version, that is what they are comfortable with. It is still beneficial, it still keeps them active, they have fun doing it and it makes this sport of ours a little more mainstream. Anyone that wants to train harder and spar hard will seek out a place that does that.

By all means as a businessperson give the public what they want. As long as you are honest and up front about what you offer and do not mislead others in the expected results of their training (whatever that may be), then have at it.

"What we really teach here are activities that resemble martial arts, but are not to be confused with actual martial arts training. Please understand that the training you will receive does not make you a competent martial artist and you probably don't have a snowball's chance in you-know-where of effectively defending yourself in a real altercation. Are we clear?"

How many times have you heard that stated in a sales presentation?

For my tastes, it's far too easy to gloss over that point for many who offer "martial arts instruction".

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[MJS]

The PoInT: These commercial schools that teach only tournament play and gymnastic routines should let all involved know that they are not teaching martial arts. While these programs might teach all the things that Andrew spoke of (integrity, focus, and discipline), it is like the stainless steel katana sword. It looks like the real thing and might feel like the real thing but when it comes time to being tested...it is NOT the real thing. This is only an opinion mind you, but it seems to be a tested one. If you take some one who has trained for five years for an hour a day, three days a week at one of these "family" run school businesses and say they had to fight a person who trained every day for four or more hours a day in Muay Thai Boran or Western Boxing... the "family" fighter would more than likely loose unless he brought something in gun metal blue or with the words "cold steel" on the side.

Good point!! And I think that is key when anyone considers joining a school. Watching a class, asking questions, etc., are all very important things if you're going to invest your time and money training there. However, the problem happens when A) the student doesn't ask questions and is clueless about what they're getting into, and B) when the instructor at the school does not disclose what the student will actually be learning.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

"What we really teach here are activities that resemble martial arts, but are not to be confused with actual martial arts training. Please understand that the training you will receive does not make you a competent martial artist and you probably don't have a snowball's chance in you-know-where of effectively defending yourself in a real altercation. Are we clear?"

Not seen much advertising have you? ;)

Effectiveness is all relative anyways, and what they do is usually better then nothing.

[hammer]

kroh, Great read




lesson cost should probably range much along the lines of a low end gymnastics school or dance studio. A place with strong commercial interests versus combat interests will probably have more students in it and can conceivably charge less.
Actually here in Australia, it is quite the opposite Dance schools tuttion fee's are Double, compared to Martial arts instruction at the top end,And if you have a daughter that dose both jazz and tap it will send ya broke!!

[/QUOTE]
A problem can occour when an instructor / businessman gets a taste of the green ( or whatever every one else's currency looks like) and starts charging more for a service because his students feel trapped. Having put in the time to learn the lessons being offered, those looking to learn a professional rank in the system might feel that unless they stay and pay the higher fees and finish their "martial education," that said time up to that point was wasted. This would be a clear cut indication of McDojoism at it's finest. Not that the instructor couldn't charge for his teaching but to overcharge would be a travesty. So true, there has to be an affordable, substainable balance with respect to fee's. Per-say this would be one of the primary reason's that when little jonny complete's his contracted term and recive's his black belt he quit's. Obligation over.

.
The hobiest only wants to have martial arts if they need it. Like the "i need it for protection" gun owner. Most will have a .380, .38, or maybe a 9 mm. The protective gun owner is not going to go and buy and HK MP-5 and carry it on a shoulder strap. They have it for what they need it for. What are the HK owners doing with what they have. If you train at a fighting school, why are you training? What are you doing with the skills? Some fight for money...others....they just ...train? Why develop a skill you will never use? Why are the people from the non-McDojo's not signing up in droves to fight for something they believe in? trick question's lol cool Analogies http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif



One of the martial arts I used to study had a teaching that said, "Strength and Love stand together". A person with love for his fellow man and no capacity to help him is not a usefull member of society. A man with strength and no love is nothing but a thug. That's cool



So if we as competant fighters and martial artists have all this skill to stop violence...are we no better than the Mcdojo because we don't do anything with what we know?
Well that's based on perception now is it,??

kroh, What is it that you do with your skill as a competant fighter and martial artist to stop violence? What would you like to do?

Cheers.

[hammer]

Some of the best comment's I heard from a Mcdojo school operator, was

" he is in the business of sale's and Marketing of martial arts lesson's"

Am- way as a lot to answer for!!

"Students testing cycle is every three months regardless"

"After a student grades/ test ."Upgrade" sell your programs ie, Blackbelt, Master'sclub, leadership , Instructor. elite tranning"

"Multi style based system re-evolving syllabus, with built in merchandise"


"We have a program for you if not we will create one"

"Have you got, have you got"

Cheers.

[bdparsons]

Effectiveness is all relative anyways...

If you want to bring my relatives into this we can take it outside! (Wait for me, I'll be out in a few minutes.)

BTW, I read plenty of advertising, but since when is that to be equated with the truth?

Seriously, it all boils down to what your personal goals are for teaching the arts, and chances are the same attitude will be absorbed and projected by your students.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Insitute

[Andrew Green]

BTW, I read plenty of advertising, but since when is that to be equated with the truth?

Exactly, so why should we expect any different from martial arts schools?

[bdparsons]

Exactly, so why should we expect any different from martial arts schools?

Gee, I dunno... must be that integrity thing that keeps raising its ugly head.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[kroh]

Hey there Hammer! Thanks for the high praise.

As for what I have done...When I was 19 I joined the United States Army and bounced from place to place and fight to fight ( not bar fights, service to my country stuff) hoping that I was doing the right thing. I felt it would have been a waste to train for the time that I had up to that point and not done anything with the skill. Some of the spherical thinking (thinking of a problem in totalities and possibilities rather than this is the problem, what are we going to do about it) that was taught in the systems I did while growing up made me approach situations that I faced while in service differently than some of my peers and I excelled. I wasn't the best soldier in the troop...but I tried very hard to be .

Anyways, now that I am out of the service (my high time during my service came during the Clinton Administration when all they did was cut military funding and we had to beg to get bullets to train with. Once I got whif of that it was time to run for my life.) I like to analogize my training to a finely crafted sword. I gained experience in the Japanese arts untill I was 21 and then learned modern warfare tactics in my job. On the side when I had the time I took to arts like gung fu and I spent a year learning Kali from an army friend from the Philipines (he didn't call it Kali but in a nut shell that's what it was). Now I train to "keep the sword sharp and polished." If I went to "Al Bagadonuts School of Kenpo Self Defense, Juijitsoo, and Cafe" I feel like it would be like puting that blade on the wall to rust and collect dust as I wouldn't be training to the standards that I learned when I was younger. The sword needs to stay sharp because it has value and you never know when you might need it again. Luckily I found the school where I am now that teaches the only thing you earn is the knowledge you take with you and the most important lesson...

...ALL EGOS MUST BE CHECKED AT THE DOOR...

I also take my time and my talents and teach the next generation ( kids classes ) at the school where I train. I never lead them on. I am only a lowly little junior instructor but when I have my group, I tell them that certain things are for play ( such as light sparring and if they want to compete) and certain things are not (I personally believe that children should not be shown a complete martial arts system before the age of 18 and in some cases should waite untill they are twenty one. A good kickboxing program, grappling program, MMA program, or chambara program can do the same thing for a child as other sports. Then if they are still interested later they can come into the real fighting arts. There is no reason a child should learn things like eye striking/gouging or how to twist persons finger untill the thing snaps and you can better control them... time for all that if they choose later). I like teaching and being exposed to children because I can show them what two way respect is and also they can remind me what it was like to be a kid and hope that everything was just going to be "all good." That being said... A few people have asked me if I would ever open up my own school to which the answer was a resounding no. I just want to train and don't care for the politics and verbal sparring that I see my instructor go through with others on a day to day basis ( I have nominated the man for sainthood but have yet to hear anything on the application.)

Like I said before, since this is all opinion it really doesn't matter in the long run because disreputable jerks are still going to do what they are going to do and honest instructors will do the same. Those that fall prey to one or fall under the graces of the other are on one side of luck or the other.

But it does feel good to talk about and get it out into the open...

Thank you for the opportunity...

Regards,
Walt :rolleyes:

[terryl965]

The critera I use to define a McDojo is this:

The warning signs:
They say they are the best.
They put you under long term contracts with high fees.
They have a lot of belts and charge lot for the testing.
You have to use their uniforms, their gear which they sell at a huge mark up.
I know a guy who ran a McDojo he said it didnt matter what art they wanted to learn..you taught it anf get them under contract. he said also thatt once they get a certain rank then you change the uniform maybe by addinf black pants or top with different patches and charge them for that.
The thing is to continually charge the student for things nickle and dime them w/o provideing them any substance.
Once you start training with them you cant train wiith anyone else.
The school is run by a mastah say a 25 y.o. 10th degree.
They teach a variety of arts everything from karate to jujitsu incl.tai bo.
They have no known linage.
Some claim to be ex special forces..or cia ect

Its not anyone thing but it is a multiple of things.

Most important after all that I wrote is the art is substandard.
Well thats my opinionOC Kid I agree with everything you posted except being number one or the best If you do not believe your one of the best how can you be one of the best

[hammer]

kroh,

Like I said, I enjoyed reading your first post. By replying to your post I wanted to provoke and or encourage you to say what was really going on. Kroh , there was a strong sense of sincerity in your response, an analogies that I wish to Adopt and share with my students, an enjoyable read.

Thank you.


Cheers
Hammer

[Bigshadow]

Got a problem with Dodgeball? :D Thats how we usually transition from kids to adult class. Adults vs Kids in a couple rounds of dodgeball.
No not really, it is fun. Just the school that I personally sent my son to, did that. It is what I consider a McDojo. So I did include it in my list. It was clearly NOT what I expected.




"Self-defence" is also a funny thing to define what works and what doesn't.
Well, I venture to say no matter the martial art style, if you saw what I saw, I am sure you would agree. What I saw them passing students for doing for self defense was not correct. It was clear. Not that the technique they were using was wrong, just they passed them doing the technique incorrectly.



There are a lot of people that would say ninjitsu is a silly hobby that has no value in "real" fighting.
Maybe so, good thing I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu or what some MAY call NinjUtsu. Anyway, I was not being judgemental of the style of MA. However, I can see you have a disdain for NinjItsu.



It does. More then some other systems, less then others.
I don't know anything about Ninjitsu, so I cannot comment.



So they are learning stuff that could work as self-defence. Most effective stuff and methods out there? No, but thats not the point. Arts that try to sell themselves purely on effectiveness are doomed right from the beginning.
Dude, this isn't about my art is better than your art.



Anybody that takes there training seriously enough ...<snip> But for most people that are training they are right where they want to be, doing what they want to do, paying for what they want to pay for.
Yes, I agree. The key word "seriously"



The most confused, "invincible warrior" type of people that I've seen have not been from big commercial schools, but from small groups of "elitists" that think they are above the masses and train in a "traditional" style. Again... Dude, this isn't about my art is better than your art. Your understanding of my art is about as much as mine of yours. So let's not make confused sweeping assertions and assigning rediculous labels to people.

[Andrew Green]

None of my comments where directed at your art, or my art. But arts in general. The simple truth is that EVERYONE claims effectiveness, and not one of them is most effective.

The new person coming into your school really isn't going to be impressed by how effective you say your stuff is compared to everyone elses. Styles that sell themselves based on primarily on effectiveness generally do not get big schools.

And yes, I have seen much nonsense taught as "self-defence", often taught be respected teachers in respected styles with respected lineages. But does that matter? Not that much, that isn't why most people are there.

[Bigshadow]

OC Kid I agree with everything you posted except being number one or the best If you do not believe your one of the best how can you be one of the best Good point! Why would you spend your hard earned cash for something you are not convinced is the best for you or another words... "You don't believe in" ?

[Bigshadow]

None of my comments where directed at your art, or my art. But arts in general. The simple truth is that EVERYONE claims effectiveness, and not one of them is most effective.

The new person coming into your school really isn't going to be impressed by how effective you say your stuff is compared to everyone elses. Styles that sell themselves based on primarily on effectiveness generally do not get big schools.

And yes, I have seen much nonsense taught as "self-defence", often taught be respected teachers in respected styles with respected lineages. But does that matter? Not that much, that isn't why most people are there. I agree. The truely committed people are definitely few in comparison to the masses for whom it is simply a hobby of sorts.

[Andrew Green]

I agree. The truely committed people are definitely few in comparison to the masses for whom it is simply a hobby of sorts.
Right, and there is nothing "wrong" with what they do. They enjoy it, it keeps them active, nothing to complain about.

[hammer]

Andrew Green]None of my comments where directed at your art, or my art. But arts in general. The simple truth is that EVERYONE claims effectiveness, and not one of them is most effective.
While is there is truth in what you say, but also in considering effectiveness,

It dose come down to the individual that is practicing a said art, And there is a clear distinction between arts as to what is effective. Some arts are defiantly more affective than other's with each placing greater enfervesces on a different aspect of an art.




The new person coming into your school really isn't going to be impressed by how effective you say your stuff is compared to everyone elses. Styles that sell themselves based on primarily on effectiveness generally do not get big schools.
Perhaps, yet with a new percpective student, it would be a sound obligation to the new student, to inform them, that there is a differnence between sytem's or style's and teaching, perhaps they may be looking for something that is specific, like example sport Tae kwon do opposed to American Kenpo.

Generally each system or school , advertise's it's self to be an effective means of self defense, Yet that is far from the truth!! (I sense you are also refering to a commerical school in regards to size)

On a side note

I have two Kenpo school's either side of me located about ten minutes drive
in either direction, I do not have an assoiction with either school, And Clearly Advertise the fact that :"Dynamic Kenpo there is a differnce!"(registed trademark) and (copyright2003) Sydney ,Australia Email twirlinghammer@hotmail.com

And I do agree that I dont see the sense in telling the new persective student How effective my school or Instruction is opposed to another but Allow them the oportunity to experience that for themselves first hand.



And yes, I have seen much nonsense taught as "self-defence", often taught be respected teachers in respected styles with respected lineages. But does that matter? Not that much, that isn't why most people are there.
I totally agree ,Its would be difficult to teach what you dont know, lol.

And personally lineages dont mean jack! while some pride themselves on the fact, Credit is given, It is no indication to one's abilitiy,there are plenty of examples of such,with out giving detail's in all system's or styles. Many great teacher's have had poor student's,yet carry their name.

I surpose the proof is in what you can do , and not what you know,

Thankyou Andrew for your posting, in allowing me to respond. It able me to get that of my chest in a clear, honest ,respectful manner.

Cheers.http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif

[OC Kid]

maybe being "the best " was the wrong way to phrase it. What I meant was they would degrade other arts as 2nd rate, ineffective ect, they are the only true art...you know that sort of thing. I basically tell potential students, that all arts have their advantages and disadvantages..Its just what your looking for..what fits your needs.

[VSanhodo]

McDojo you ask?????


Geezz this is an easy one, Just open the phone book and look at the Martial Arts School ads. I would venture to say 98.9% of the schools out there teach BS. All done in the name of Martial Arts.

San

[shinbushi]

Andrew,
From your posts it seems that you think to be a successful school you have to have blackbelt clubs, long contracts, etc. There are many hardcore successful schools that don't resort to the above or any of the other MC Dojo practices. The Straight Blast Gym, The Inosanto Academy, Fairtex Gym, just to name a few. Also you say there is a market for watered down martial arts. True just as there is a market for fast food but everyone knows it is not fine cuisine. I think that if McDojos want to service that market then they should be proud of their McDojo title and call themselves that. I respect the fast food companies that are not trying to pretend to be healthy and add salads and fruit. You will never see that a Carl's Junior do that.
For those that don't think professional schools are needed. If you need a boxing ring or cage to train in how do you do that when you rent space from a place like a dance school or kiddie gym?