Katas keep them or chuck them ?

[asoka]

This is thread is to share opinions not to put down or offend anyone,can't handle it then don't stay in here.


I'm a martial artist at heart and have been studying it for 16 yrs.from my experience in different style,I have formed my opinion that katas are nothing more then a waste of time.

Should we keep katas or chuck'em?I would say chuck'em but that's me.

First of all katas are pre-arranged movements done without an opponent simply kicking,punching and blocking nothing but air.

Second how much of the hidden techniques in katas actually work? very few.Those techniques that look like they could work,probably would if practiced against someone instead of in a form.

Some would question that and say it's not the forms it's the instructor teaching it,perhaps,but if the instructor himself doesn't know the application to the forms which most don't then how can you expect to unless you checkout a book or video.Instructors only know what they have been taught and quite often teach it exactly it that way instead of being creative and improving the art.

In Traditional arts one must be ashamed to change the way the masters had taught their style and the masters before them.This theory is wrong,people need to change according to life style.What may have worked then won't work now.Unfortunately many students have been brain washed into believing that if forms were useless they wouldn't still be teaching them after so many years,and often don't realize the main reason forms is because it's the way the arts were originally taught.

Even then does anyone really know if these forms ever really worked even back then,I don't know,perhaps they did,but they definitely won't now.

Katas give a student a false hope of being able to defend themselves if necessary which they don't really teach.Katas are great for focus,co-ordination,balance and not much more,however this can also be learnt in other more realistic ways while learning true self-defense..

The question arises again,should martial arts schools change their way of think and get rid of forms? Well I believe so otherwise go do gymnastic or ballet and get the same thing that most arts teach.Non-traditional arts seem to be more effective as they deal with the times and reality,basing their teaching specifically on street defense as in Pankration, MuayThai, Kickboxing etc.

By the way how do I change belt colour undername to black?

[Yari]

Originally posted by asoka

This is thread is to share opinions not to put down or offend anyone,can't handle it then don't stay in here.



ok



I'm a martial artist at heart and have been studying it for 16 yrs.from my experience in different style,I have formed my opinion that katas are nothing more then a waste of time.

Should we keep katas or chuck'em?I would say chuck'em but that's me.



Keep 'em




First of all katas are pre-arranged movements done without an opponent simply kicking,punching and blocking nothing but air.



Only true if you beleive it's air. If you've tried iaido kata's you know your not working with air.... and I beleive it's the same for other kata's.



Second how much of the hidden techniques in katas actually work? very few.Those techniques that look like they could work,probably would if practiced against someone instead of in a form.


Some of the best karate fighters I've meat were the best people to do kata's. And most of the students I've had did their best gradings if they practiced kata's.



Some would question that and say it's not the forms it's the instructor teaching it,perhaps,but if the instructor himself doesn't know the application to the forms which most don't then how can you expect to unless you checkout a book or video.Instructors only know what they have been taught and quite often teach it exactly it that way instead of being creative and improving the art.


So now you mean that the kata practice is OK, but it's the instructors fault, and therefor the kata is no good?



In Traditional arts one must be ashamed to change the way the masters had taught their style and the masters before them.


No one is ashamed unless you really don't know what your doing.




This theory is wrong,people need to change according to life style.What may have worked then won't work now.Unfortunately many students have been brain washed into believing that if forms were useless they wouldn't still be teaching them after so many years,and often don't realize the main reason forms is because it's the way the arts were originally taught.



Very modern thinking: I have this now therefor I know best. Forgetting that alot of people before you have tried to live a whole lifetime, and found out alot of good things. And just to emphesize. Kata's are not static, have never been, and if their not static, they are not worth the S*** they come from .






Even then does anyone really know if these forms ever really worked even back then,I don't know,perhaps they did,but they definitely won't now.


Because they wont work for you, doesn't mean they wont work for everbody. You could be doing it wrong.




Katas give a student a false hope of being able to defend themselves if necessary which they don't really teach.Katas are great for focus,co-ordination,balance and not much more,however this can also be learnt in other more realistic ways while learning true self-defense..

The question arises again,should martial arts schools change their way of think and get rid of forms? Well I believe so otherwise go do gymnastic or ballet and get the same thing that most arts teach.Non-traditional arts seem to be more effective as they deal with the times and reality,basing their teaching specifically on street defense as in Pankration, MuayThai, Kickboxing etc.


No they should not dich kata's.

I agree on that kata's should not be the only part of the MA, but it's a part of it that should be their.

The older I get , the more important I see that kata's are. To many students think it's a bore and can't see why. But I can see it on their technique, it becomes 100 % better when they start working on their katas.

I have a question for you, when did you start to think katas were not worth it? Or have you always done that?

Anoth point ... who's your most critical partner?


/Yari

[asoka]

I didn't always think katas were useless like you I always believed that katas were important for any art and helps improve techniques for fighting,but last 3yrs.I have been realizing that I was wrong all these years,and now see that katas are not really that important although they may sometimes be fun to do.

I'm not sure what you mean by critical partner.

[Yari]

Originally posted by asoka

I didn't always think katas were useless like you I always believed that katas were important for any art and helps improve techniques for fighting,but last 3yrs.I have been realizing that I was wrong all these years,and now see that katas are not really that important although they may sometimes be fun to do.



OK, you think they are fun to do. I think they are essential to the arts I've practiced/practicing




I'm not sure what you mean by critical partner.

If someone should critisize your technique, who would be best to do it?

It's usally yourself. If you blend in somebody else, there's another person in the equasion. And to many times one gets angry or irritated on the other person, because he didn't throw the punch correctly, or moved wrongly. But you see that a uke cant do anthing wrong, but the idea that they can distracts you from the essens: it's up to you to do it correctly. And the hardest way to do it is by your self = kata. If you can follow?

/Yari

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by asoka


This theory is wrong,people need to change according to life style.What may have worked then won't work now.

In your opinion excluding guns, how has unarmed combat changed to render a traditional art less effective? Do people punch,kick and grapple different now than they did say 200 years ago?

[Yari]

Originally posted by fist of fury



In your opinion excluding guns, how has unarmed combat changed to render a traditional art less effective? Do people punch,kick and grapple different now than they did say 200 years ago?

Never though about it like that. It's a good point.

/Yari

[kimura]

RE: ASOKA

You are totally right !! Katas suck if you just want to learn how to kick someones ass !!

However, if you want to learn martial arts because of the ethics it offers and the good bi product of self defence, then Katas are perfect.

If you have looked at the katas you have done and thought, 'I did not have to learn this to defend myself', then you are right. However, then I think you have learned nothing at all... You probably should have practised Grabbling or boxing instead of an art that actually have a message of harmony and peace hidden somewhere (Sorry for being so direct)

[chufeng]

Asoka,

Point #1...The human body has NOT evolved into something different from what it was even as far back as 5000 years ago...therefore, the techniques used 200 years ago will still work.

Point #2...Katas are a catalog of techniques and series of techniques...you should be taking out segments and drilling those moves WITH a partner.

Point #3...If something doesn't make sense, then you are looking at it wrong...some techniques are put in at the "wrong distance" on purpose...remember how secretive the arts used to be.

Point #4...If you think the hidden techniques won't work, then you've never worked out with people who really KNOW how to use them...or, perhaps they didn't think you were ready to learn them...In Okinawa during Karate's early days (most Okinawan karate is derived from Fukien Shaolin) it was not uncommon to work on ONE kata for MANY years...not because the teacher was trying to test the student's mettle, but because there is just so much stuff packed into the forms...to include "spotting."

Point #5...The entire art and discipline of Karate includes a spiritual path, as well...to discard a part of your training because you don't "get it" may be an act you regret later...I suggest you dig deeper.

:asian:

chufeng

[TangSooGuy]

Without getting too far into it, I personally believ that if you think forms are useless than you're not looking deeply enough. Part of training in forms is to see how you can make a technique in the form work in a real situation. You can take one series of movements for from a form and come up with countless applications. What works for one person may not work for another, but they may find another application for the same series. It takes a LONG time to really make application from forms work, but that's one of the reasons they're worth studying.


Do you need them to learn how to defend yourself? No. Do you need them to become a great ighter? No.

Do you need them to be a great martial artist? In my opinion, yes. Great martial artists look beyond the surface to see what else is there, other than the obvious. I'm only just starting to really understand forms, after 17+ years of training.

A second point: when you remove forms from your training, you begin to remove some the 'art' from the martial art....

[kimura]

Originally posted by TangSooGuy

Without getting too far into it, I personally believ that if you think forms are useless than you're not looking deeply enough. Part of training in forms is to see how you can make a technique in the form work in a real situation. You can take one series of movements for from a form and come up with countless applications. What works for one person may not work for another, but they may find another application for the same series. It takes a LONG time to really make application from forms work, but that's one of the reasons they're worth studying.


Do you need them to learn how to defend yourself? No. Do you need them to become a great ighter? No.

Do you need them to be a great martial artist? In my opinion, yes. Great martial artists look beyond the surface to see what else is there, other than the obvious. I'm only just starting to really understand forms, after 17+ years of training.

A second point: when you remove forms from your training, you begin to remove some the 'art' from the martial art....

Good answer:asian:

Furthermore Kata is about perfecting movements that cannot be perfected if you practise them with others, as the stances are never the same, the blocks hits etc. With a partner you can practice timing and distance or compare muscles (if this is an aspect of the art) however, understanding the ultimate perfect movement with your body and mind requires years and years of doing that movement!

I have practised Iaido for some years now, and the thrill that goes through my body when I make the perfect cut cannot be described in words. I hope that in 40 years or so I will be able to be in that state in every movement. At the moment it unfortunately happens once a month... Sooo I and all you fanatics outthere must practice on !!

[Kempojujutsu]

I don't teach Kata's till Black Belt. Most people can't get the concept of kata's. When looking at a movement from Okinawan kata, the movementsmay be done in reverse order, upside-down. Take for example the movement of down block- up block. If you think of this as blocking a kick then blocking a punch no wonder you don't like kata's, or fell they don't work. The above movement done for a lapel grab strike down at the elbow then back up toward the head. This is one example of Okinawan Kata and how it works. I believe Chinese forms, from Tai Chi are easier to figure out the self defense from then Okinawan Kata's.
Bob :asian:

[asoka]

Originally posted by kimura

RE: ASOKA

You are totally right !! Katas suck if you just want to learn how to kick someones ass !!

However, if you want to learn martial arts because of the ethics it offers and the good bi product of self defence, then Katas are perfect.

If you have looked at the katas you have done and thought, 'I did not have to learn this to defend myself', then you are right. However, then I think you have learned nothing at all... You probably should have practised Grabbling or boxing instead of an art that actually have a message of harmony and peace hidden somewhere (Sorry for being so direct)


I agree that there is a message of harmony or way of expression in the art but not a bi product of self-defense inside the katas.

How do I change the belt colour to black on this thing?

[asoka]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I don't teach Kata's till Black Belt. Most people can't get the concept of kata's. When looking at a movement from Okinawan kata, the movementsmay be done in reverse order, upside-down. Take for example the movement of down block- up block. If you think of this as blocking a kick then blocking a punch no wonder you don't like kata's, or fell they don't work. The above movement done for a lapel grab strike down at the elbow then back up toward the head. This is one example of Okinawan Kata and how it works. I believe Chinese forms, from Tai Chi are easier to figure out the self defense from then Okinawan Kata's.
Bob :asian:


I did Meibu-Kan Goju(okinawan style)and Goju Ryu(Japanese) and have a ni dan in both.I see it exactly how I was taught and they seemed fun but now seem very unrealistic to me.

[Turner]

How do I change the belt colour to black on this thing?

Like you do anywhere else, you earn it.


At this time, I don't teach forms. Like asoka I have 16 years experience in the martial arts and during the majority of that time I've been right on the edge of having the same disdain for Katas that he has. Now, as I'm learning from a new instructor, forms are a part of the study and I'm discovering a whole new appreciation for them.

A great many people (myself included) complain about the fact that many instructors don't teach the practical application of Kata. It is true. There are a lot of instructors that just don't know enough about their art to actually be able to teach. So things get watered and dumbed down until you have people (like me) walk onto the scene with half a brain on their shoulders and look at the stuff and laugh. I was laughing but I've been shut up because instead of just laughing and walking away I've been digging deeper into the martial arts to learn more and I now have a glimmer of understanding about what Kata are all about.

On a different note, why should instructors teach the practical application of Kata? As someone mentioned before, people would practice one form for years and years. Can you imagine practicing one of the basic "I" pattern forms for 3 years?

This morning my father and I had a discussion about human nature. I was asking for his advice on whether a new school would survive in my town and the topic naturally went to 'what was I looking to accomplish as an instructor.' Of course, I'm looking for people that are willing to make a commitment to my art, but in my experience as a martial artist and his experience as a minister we both have seen the inherent difficulty that humans have in making a commitment, especially a life commitment, to something that should be committed to. Whether people realize it consciously or not, many martial artists are 'list makers.' They want to become a black belt and will unconsciously cross the martial arts off the list when they make black belt and they find some excuse to go their merry way, happy in the fact that they are a black belt. Why should an instructor go to such depths on the practicality of a form and its myriad of uses when that information will be wasted on a 'list maker?' It would be a waste of time to teach the majority of martial artists any more than just the motions. They have to see that you are willing to make the commitment and they do that by seeing if you are going to try to look deep enough to find the more intricate details on your own. Kata is for people who are willing to make that life commitment and spend years and years just on one form. Are you someone who wants information (a black belt) in a hurry or are you willing to take the time and study it in depth? 16 years isn't much time at all. Maybe when I have 30 years in the art I will assume that I know enough to judge whether something is good or not.

Just my humble opinion.

Doug

[Rob_Broad]

Katas have several purposes. Instead of throwing the same punch, block kick over and over a thousand times the kata allows you to keep your focus. A kata teaches us balance, coordination, agility, spatial orientation, and how to do basics while in motion.

People who have a problem with doing katas have a problem with their training, they believe they have learned all there is to learn from that aspect of their martial career.

There are many things you can do to make your katas more interesting, change them up, do them them backwards, do them to the other side. Too many people learn the kata to get their next belt not to learn the lesson that it holds.

[chufeng]

Originally posted by asoka




I agree that there is a message of harmony or way of expression in the art but not a bi product of self-defense inside the katas.

How do I change the belt colour to black on this thing?

As many people have said in this forum...you simply aren't looking deep enough into it...

The styles you studied are direct derivations of Shaolin boxing from Fujien...If you can't see the value in forms, then please give them up...(AND THE SECRETS OF CHINESE BOXING WILL REMAIN THE SECRETS OF CHINESE BOXING)...America is the land of the green-belt sensei...although there are many reputable and well qualified instructors, there are many who NEVER looked deeply enough into their own art to really pass it on as it was intended...I suspect you are a product of that phenomenon...too bad.

But don't suggest to the rest of the people here that Kata has no purpose...kata has no value as a meens to pass on REAL self defense techniques...You obviously have not met Seiyu Oyata.


chufeng

[asoka]

Originally posted by chufeng



As many people have said in this forum...you simply aren't looking deep enough into it...

The styles you studied are direct derivations of Shaolin boxing from Fujien...If you can't see the value in forms, then please give them up...(AND THE SECRETS OF CHINESE BOXING WILL REMAIN THE SECRETS OF CHINESE BOXING)...America is the land of the green-belt sensei...although there are many reputable and well qualified instructors, there are many who NEVER looked deeply enough into their own art to really pass it on as it was intended...I suspect you are a product of that phenomenon...too bad.

But don't suggest to the rest of the people here that Kata has no purpose...kata has no value as a meens to pass on REAL self defense techniques...You obviously have not met Seiyu Oyata.


chufeng

I have looked deeply into my past martial arts Meibu-Kan Goju and Goju Ryu,I studied them both for 12yrs,read books on them,searched on internet,wrote an essay even on them for my black belt tests and taught it for 5yrs.,but with my more recent experience in M.A experience I have switched to the other side realising the opposite of you guys which is that katas are of no use,but that it is fine to practice if that is what you want to do.

I have compared my past styles to my more current style which is Pankration,which to me seems more realistic,don't get me wrong I'm not saying to switch to my style,I'm just stating an opinion of mine.

The asian people of china,japan etc.not to sound racist or anything,but made a mistake by influencing,brain washing,and insisting that their style not be changed and that katas are the way it must be done.Martial Arts has also been misunderstood by those who feel the way it was taught back then is the way it should keep.

Many martial artists teach it the way it was taught to them and the way the masters before them had taught it.

Life is a ever changing world,just as martial arts should be too.

We change the way we think,the music we listen to as we get older,the style of clothes,the way we eat, and the way we see things, just as the way martial arts should,but many unfortunately don't.

[Rob_Broad]

Have the kata's you learnt in the past helped you get as far as you have made it in the martial arts so far? maybe the knowledge you do not realize you picked up from the katas have helped you get to where you are today? Maybe they have helped you get to where you want to be now.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by asoka

How do I change the belt colour to black on this thing?

It's based on the number of posts you make; see the FAQ (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1813). You can go into your member profile and change the text to something else if you wish.

[sweeper]

Originally posted by asoka

This is thread is to share opinions not to put down or offend anyone,can't handle it then don't stay in here.


I'm a martial artist at heart and have been studying it for 16 yrs.from my experience in different style,I have formed my opinion that katas are nothing more then a waste of time.

Should we keep katas or chuck'em?I would say chuck'em but that's me.

First of all katas are pre-arranged movements done without an opponent simply kicking,punching and blocking nothing but air.So ?? what's so bad about that.. any boxer will tell you shadow boxing is very important to ring fighting, there is a deffenate advantage to punching/kicking air.


Second how much of the hidden techniques in katas actually work? very few.Those techniques that look like they could work,probably would if practiced against someone instead of in a form.You have practiced two styles, two simular styles at that, how can you say this of all kata? do you have anymore evidance than your opinion?


Some would question that and say it's not the forms it's the instructor teaching it,perhaps,but if the instructor himself doesn't know the application to the forms which most don't then how can you expect to unless you checkout a book or video.Instructors only know what they have been taught and quite often teach it exactly it that way instead of being creative and improving the art.There are bad instructors in any field of study, it doesn't mean a specific aspect of the field is bad because a bad instrutor doesn't know how to teach it, if they are incompitant than they shouldn't be teaching (not just not teaching kata).


In Traditional arts one must be ashamed to change the way the masters had taught their style and the masters before them.This theory is wrong,people need to change according to life style.Why do you say that one must be ashamed? I havn't heard of this. I have heard people say once you change it it isn't the same art anymore, but not that you should be ashamed to do so, additionaly to the best of my knowledge most masters do change aspects of their arts, maybe not a great deal and some moreso than others but it has happened and to the best of my knowledge (someone correct me if I'm wrong) has been fairly common place (among heads of styles/schools).

What may have worked then won't work now.Unfortunately many students have been brain washed into believing that if forms were useless they wouldn't still be teaching them after so many years,and often don't realize the main reason forms is because it's the way the arts were originally taught.Can you give any evidance that that's the reason? And why would they have been originaly taught that way? Also I don't think all to many martialartists have been brainwashed...


Even then does anyone really know if these forms ever really worked even back then,I don't know,perhaps they did,but they definitely won't now.Maybe, but one could argue that people genneraly don't do something for absolutly no reason, I would make the arguement that forms were practiced for a good reason, not because everyone did forms for all eterniy


Katas give a student a false hope of being able to defend themselves if necessary which they don't really teach.Katas are great for focus,co-ordination,balance and not much more,however this can also be learnt in other more realistic ways while learning true self-defense..And I suppose through some fluke of biology when you practice a kata your brain doesn't myelinate dendrites. first define "true self deffence", second how does a kata give some ne a false hope of being able to deffend themselves, further how does "true self defence" avoid this?


The question arises again,should martial arts schools change their way of think and get rid of forms? Well I believe so otherwise go do gymnastic or ballet and get the same thing that most arts teach.Non-traditional arts seem to be more effective as they deal with the times and reality,basing their teaching specifically on street defense as in Pankration, MuayThai, Kickboxing etc.wait you are equating forms to gymnastics and ballet? how are these the same thing, they are totaly diffrent excercises and have totaly diffrent purposes can you explain how the only benafits you would get from practicing "most arts" you would also get in gymnastics or ballet? And further how do you define "most arts" unless I'm missing soemthing you have only practiced two arts that utalise forms, so where does your information come from on all the others? Also I don't want to get into a debate on your pankration considering I don't practice it and there isn't alot of information on it, but in what way is mauy thai or kickboxing based on self deffence? as far as I can tell they are both ring sports and have always been ring sports...


By the way how do I change belt colour undername to black? You don't. The belt rank is a measure of how many posts you have made, it isn't a measure of your martial ability.

now fist of fury upi said
In your opinion excluding guns, how has unarmed combat changed to render a traditional art less effective? Do people punch,kick and grapple different now than they did say 200 years ago?

Simply put yes (in my opinion ;-p).

first of all I havn't seen any evidance that any scientific process was used to "build" martial arts, rather an empirical process but having that said it is posable that with information on such subjects as kenisiology(sp) older arts could be made more effective.

But the primary diffrence is environment. Some arts developed for every specific environments. For example, arts are influenced by other arts and tested against them, but 200 years ago it would have been imposable to test the art against every other art in the world, consaquently a style would tend to gravitate twards combating it's most common opponant, wether that is rival schools or criminals or whatever an art is going to be somewhat optimised for a certain type of combat vs a certain opposing style of combat. Today you won't be able to tell how your opponant (ina self deffence situation) will attack you. Simularly many arts were developed with or without certain weapons in mind, both common and exotic. that can mean that a weapon you might run across today may not be figured into the deffences of the art and perhaps something that was figured in is out of date today. Also terrain diffrences can affect the fighting style. deppending where an art developed the way your footwork is utalised could vary due to the terrain of the home environment (as an example (if it's true) I seem to recal Dan inosant in an interview about certain phillipino arts saying something to the affect that there were phillipino arts that you were taught to drop to your knees in combat when posable, reason was they developed in rather swampy areas and if you were fighting you were gona fall, so it was better to have a controlled fall than an uncontrolled fall at a bad time).

I don't know how much value any of that has, just trying to play devils advocate.

[Bushido]

Dont you think it would be interesting to transfrom to fit more the 21 century? Instead of having the fist to hip while punching, it would be nice to have that hand to protect the face. Even the too long stances could be changed for shorter one. This is what Sensei Kenji Tokitsu did. He is a great karate philosopher.

-Bushido

[Kempojujutsu]

Bushido, I believe your in the wrong century? I think it's the 22nd century. Who care's, any way the hand on the hip is a capture hand. Or pulling a hand into you followed with a strike. I don't know about you but I do grappling/NHB and I have used this technique several times. But many of the techniques from kata's may not be out dated, look and see how you would fit them into today's Martial Arts. The horse stance one example, I've used it for an arm bar. How about Grappling have you heard of the mount what are you doing. Yes you are on your knees but it is the same concept. Knee on the Stomach again horse stance, maybe not done like a traditional Martial Artist. But it is very close to a horse stance
Bob :asian:

[sweeper]

no... it is the 21st century.

[Kempojujutsu]

I have been watching too much Star Wars. Got in the wrong Century.
Thanks
Bob :eek:

[asoka]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have been watching too much Star Wars. Got in the wrong Century.
Thanks
Bob :eek:


Star Wars!!!!!!!!! I guess you could be in right room for that because that's where katas and their stance belong.It's all fiction.

[Bushido]

You're right Kempojujutsu, some "techniques" can be keep, some thrown away. I do bjj, I agree that some positions are alike. But in my post I was refering more to "zenkutsu-dachi" attack stance. In my experience, it is rarely used in a dynamic fight, we use a more shorter position that allow rapid direction change.

I've been practicing kata for 12-13 years, but now, I prefer drills and sparring.I keep the traditionnal karate spirit alive through these practice.

-Bushido

[asoka]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Have the kata's you learnt in the past helped you get as far as you have made it in the martial arts so far? maybe the knowledge you do not realize you picked up from the katas have helped you get to where you are today? Maybe they have helped you get to where you want to be now.

I admit katas have helped me to some degree,they helped me understand what they're meant for although I no longer agree with doing them.

From learning katas,in my opinion have been able to distinguish between traditional arts(arts studying katas) and non-traditional(where we don't learn katas at all).I know Pankration is traditional in the sense that it is an old art but what I mean by traditional is one that believes in doing forms.

However old Pankration is,it changes as time goes by and new techniques are always being added.It is an art that continues to evolve.

Yes Katas have helped me to some point,but they are over rated in many martial arts schools.What I mean is instead of maybe doing it once in a blue moon they are practiced in every day,in every class or almost every class for some.

Katas helped me learn to focus,balance and become more co-ordinated but as I have mentioned before and will once again do so,that is all they are really good for.Okay so some hidden techniques might be useful but how many actually are?Very Few.

Most people join martial arts for self-defense and the bunkai for most techniques within the katas would never work.

If people wanted to just keep fit they'd chose something like aerobics but they chose martial arts to do both keep fit and learn self-defense at least that's why I did anyways.Of course I can't speak for everyone but that was the reason I first took up karate.I expected more out of it.

I thought I was getting everything I needed out of it but then 3yrs ago realised I wasn't and could get much more doing Pankration.I may try other arts as well in future not sure which one as of yet.

I believe one should keep an open mind and learn from their experiences,both good and bad.

Don't get me wrong I enjoyed my years in karate and have no regret about doing it,I just wish I had tried something new sooner instead of staying in it 12yrs I should have stayed perhaps 7.

I shouldn't completely put down katas,but I do want to ignore them in my training.I don't believe in doing them if it's for self-defense purposes.

I admit I sometimes go over my forms at home but not very often.I just do it for fun though.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka



...........Katas helped me learn to focus,balance and become more co-ordinated but as I have mentioned before and will once again do so,that is all they are really good for. Okay so some hidden techniques might be useful but how many actually are?Very Few.

They teach a hell of a lot more than that. If all you learned was focus and balance you have either yourself or you instructor to blame.


Originally posted by asoka

..........Most people join martial arts for self-defense and the bunkai for most techniques within the katas would never work.

Oh really? I say it does............and have actually seen them work...........again if the bunkai you were taught didn't work you have either yourself to blame for not being able to do it properly or you instructor to blame for not showing you decent "usable" bunkai.
You cannot blame the art for something either you or your instructor didn't/couldn't understand.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I believe Chinese forms, from Tai Chi are easier to figure out the self defense from then Okinawan Kata's.
Bob :asian:


Matt Stone who is a Taichi/Chinese Stylist and regular poster on this BB came by my dojo today. He and did some comparisons of kata movement and technique and a lot of what we do in Okinawan style kata is very similar to the Chinese moves that they do. It was very interesting.

[Bushido]

RyuShiKan, on your web site, the picture, is that the dojo you train in? Wow, that seems BEAUTIFUL , surounded by trees. Do you have others pictures of that dojo that you could share with us?

Thanks!

-Bushido

[RyuShiKan]

That is the old dojo. Here are some photos of the new one.

[RyuShiKan]

Outside

[RyuShiKan]

Inside

[RyuShiKan]

Fish pond with no fish in it.

[Matt Stone]

Not to seem arrogant, but what the hell...

I have been practicing forms for going on 17 years now. There have been forms that I started out hating that I eventually fell in love with, and there have been forms that I originally liked, but later liked less...

I practiced them at first because I was told I had to. I practice them now because they are the best way, training alone, for me to make an attempt at maintaining my knowledge and skills (though they are by no means a substitute for partner practice).

Forms teach many things - distance, timing, balance, endurance, combinations, joint locks, strategic perception, proper footwork, correct stance to generate power and maintain stability (and if you are fighting from a zenkutsu dachi thinking it is meant to be held while confronting an opponent, and base your removal of forms practice on that kind of an experience, both you AND your teacher need to be ***** slapped for being just plain stupid...), and much, much more.

Forms are the textbooks of your martial education. If you think you can learn a subject without ever cracking a book, fine. Go to college and forget to buy your texts... When you are failing every class, come see me and do your best to convince me why your failure to grasp the class material is somehow the instructor's fault and not yours...

The people that are most loudly decrying the purpose, utility and necessity of forms are those who understand them the least, learned them incompletely from instructors either ignorant of their real use or ignorant of their real content.

They need to go back and practice their forms more, not less. If it was their instructor's fault for not communicating the content of the forms, then they should seek out new instructors.

If the persons complaining about the uselessness of forms are coming from backgrounds that are either of questionable legitimacy (a la "Bill's Super Chinese Karate-jutsu-do," or Sifu Shihan Soke Hanshi Koucho Billy's Okinawan Chinese Acrobatic Ballet and Self-defense Meditation schools, Inc.," etc...), or outlandishly poor education (being unaware of the real history of their styles, being unaware of the real country and language of origin of their styles, etc.), then they have themselves to blame for having made a poor choice when entering into the martial world to begin with. When I first joined, it was the result of over 6 months of research into the schools in my city... and that was not due to insight, wisdom or maturity (I was all of 16 years old), just good consumer awareness.

Martial arts must grow, as all things must, in order to survive and prosper. But that doesn't mean that someone today, in 2002, knows better than someone from 1584, just because today is today and 1584 is the "old way." Surprisingly, they had the same situations arise that we have today, and we may just be reinventing the wheel by trying to create our own forms from nothing... I teach the same forms my teacher taught me, and I teach them in the same way. But I encourage the people I train with to look deeply into the forms - find applications that my teacher didn't teach me and that I didn't teach them. Use the forms to remember concepts and theories, not just techniques and combinations. Our art is still quite alive, thankyouverymuch.

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

:samurai: :tank:

And RyuShiKan is correct - I stopped by his dojo and got a REAL education... I am bruised on my bruises and blissfully happy for the experience. Go ahead, say forms are crap and the bunkai are useless... Then go to RyuShiKan's dojo and ask him to prove to you otherwise... Go ahead, I dare you. When you are looking back up at him from a place somewhere on the floor, with one or more limbs screaming in pain and a complete inability to regain control of your body, you can continue to tell him how he is just full of so much hot air...

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Martial arts must grow, as all things must, in order to survive and prosper. But that doesn't mean that someone today, in 2002, knows better than someone from 1584, just because today is today and 1584 is the "old way." Surprisingly, they had the same situations arise that we have today, and we may just be reinventing the wheel by trying to create our own forms from nothing... I teach the same forms my teacher taught me, and I teach them in the same way. But I encourage the people I train with to look deeply into the forms - find applications that my teacher didn't teach me and that I didn't teach them. Use the forms to remember concepts and theories, not just techniques and combinations. Our art is still quite alive, thankyouverymuch.

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

Yiliquan1,

I agree 100% with the above statement.
One thing I am wondering though is................is it the Martial Art that is really growing or is it the Martial Artist that is growing and it just seems like the art is.........I dunno.....

I do know that some days when I train I remember something my teacher told me about a certain move or concept a year or so before that I didn't understand then at all but suddenly becomes crystal clear. I think just becuase you didn't understand something at the time doesn't mean it is crap............it just means you weren't ready for it.




Originally posted by Yiliquan1


And RyuShiKan is correct - I stopped by his dojo and got a REAL education... I am bruised on my bruises and blissfully happy for the experience. Go ahead, say forms are crap and the bunkai are useless... Then go to RyuShiKan's dojo and ask him to prove to you otherwise... Go ahead, I dare you. When you are looking back up at him from a place somewhere on the floor, with one or more limbs screaming in pain and a complete inability to regain control of your body, you can continue to tell him how he is just full of so much hot air...

Yiliquan1 (Matt),

Your are more than welcome to stop by anytime and I have to say you are one of the strongest martial Arts people I have met in Japan. I don't think I have seen anyone with forearms the size of my thigh before! :eek: I bet you wrist curl about 400lbs. don't you! ;)

[Chiduce]

Keep the katas. Katas or/and forms were designed not only for your understanding of self defense, but also (and i would say mainly) to strengthen the whole body. Blocking reps. build muscle. Punching Reps; build proper mental coordination; ( left and right brain retention). Kicking Reps, build leg muscles and help strenghten the joints and ligaments of the legs and feet. Stances; build body posture, strong legs, back, torso, and aid in proper rooting. If one cannot sit in a one legged stance with the other leg across the knee holding the left budda hand? Then, how can one see the negatives of the benefits of the form? Kata teaches both standard and reverse abdominal breathing! Even the techiques we use as defense against an attacker, if executed slowly in consistent motion transform into form or kata. Without kata, there is no defense of self!:asian: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[sweeper]

I don't think he's gona go all the way to japan to argue a point :-p


Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

Yiliquan1 do you mean for all arts or the arts in question?

actualy this brought up a question I was wondering.. are there any arts that practice forms that could have the forms removed at no loss?

[Matt Stone]

Katas or/and forms were designed not only for your understanding of self defense, but also (and i would say mainly) to strengthen the whole body.

Chiduce, I think you and I finally agree on something! ;)


Yiliquan1 do you mean for all arts or the arts in question?

actualy this brought up a question I was wondering.. are there any arts that practice forms that could have the forms removed at no loss?

All arts that have forms have them for a reason. Look at the relative simplicity of boxing or Muay Thai as an example, as compared to Okinawan Karate or Baguazhang. You could easily master (I hate that term) Muay Thai in several years - develop the strength, stamina, physique, reflexes and techniques, and there you have it. But it will take decades to "master" a style like Bagua. Why? Because there is much more contained in that art.

Why is TKD frowned upon so much? They practice forms, don't they? They do, but easily 90% of all the information contained in forms is lost to most TKD people. The TKD people may flame me in response to this, and that is fine by me, but it is the exception (not the rule) that TKD people haven't got clue one about what is contained in their forms. If they did, they wouldn't hop around like rabbits on crack when they fight (they would resemble their forms instead).

Is there an art that could lose its forms at no loss to that style? I doubt it, but that is my opinion only...

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I do know that some days when I train I remember something my teacher told me about a certain move or concept a year or so before that I didn't understand then at all but suddenly becomes crystal clear. I think just becuase you didn't understand something at the time doesn't mean it is crap............it just means you weren't ready for it.


One of the people in Yili that is WAY senior to me (I suspect I'll pay for that comment... :D ) that posts here, Chufeng, once commented to one of our junior students that was having difficulty with his training at one point that "You ARE a Yili master. Just not YET."

That comment has stuck with me, along with "When the student is ready, a teacher will appear."

It is surprising (but not altogether that much so) how much forms have to teach... Like you said, you can be doing something for years and not get it, then one day BANG there is is... I think forms are this way for a reason, and like you implied it was not that there was no information to convey, just that the student was not prepared to recognize it when it presented itself...

[asoka]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Not to seem arrogant, but what the hell...

I have been practicing forms for going on 17 years now. There have been forms that I started out hating that I eventually fell in love with, and there have been forms that I originally liked, but later liked less...

I practiced them at first because I was told I had to. I practice them now because they are the best way, training alone, for me to make an attempt at maintaining my knowledge and skills (though they are by no means a substitute for partner practice).

Forms teach many things - distance, timing, balance, endurance, combinations, joint locks, strategic perception, proper footwork, correct stance to generate power and maintain stability (and if you are fighting from a zenkutsu dachi thinking it is meant to be held while confronting an opponent, and base your removal of forms practice on that kind of an experience, both you AND your teacher need to be ***** slapped for being just plain stupid...), and much, much more.

Forms are the textbooks of your martial education. If you think you can learn a subject without ever cracking a book, fine. Go to college and forget to buy your texts... When you are failing every class, come see me and do your best to convince me why your failure to grasp the class material is somehow the instructor's fault and not yours...

The people that are most loudly decrying the purpose, utility and necessity of forms are those who understand them the least, learned them incompletely from instructors either ignorant of their real use or ignorant of their real content.

They need to go back and practice their forms more, not less. If it was their instructor's fault for not communicating the content of the forms, then they should seek out new instructors.

If the persons complaining about the uselessness of forms are coming from backgrounds that are either of questionable legitimacy (a la "Bill's Super Chinese Karate-jutsu-do," or Sifu Shihan Soke Hanshi Koucho Billy's Okinawan Chinese Acrobatic Ballet and Self-defense Meditation schools, Inc.," etc...), or outlandishly poor education (being unaware of the real history of their styles, being unaware of the real country and language of origin of their styles, etc.), then they have themselves to blame for having made a poor choice when entering into the martial world to begin with. When I first joined, it was the result of over 6 months of research into the schools in my city... and that was not due to insight, wisdom or maturity (I was all of 16 years old), just good consumer awareness.

Martial arts must grow, as all things must, in order to survive and prosper. But that doesn't mean that someone today, in 2002, knows better than someone from 1584, just because today is today and 1584 is the "old way." Surprisingly, they had the same situations arise that we have today, and we may just be reinventing the wheel by trying to create our own forms from nothing... I teach the same forms my teacher taught me, and I teach them in the same way. But I encourage the people I train with to look deeply into the forms - find applications that my teacher didn't teach me and that I didn't teach them. Use the forms to remember concepts and theories, not just techniques and combinations. Our art is still quite alive, thankyouverymuch.

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

:samurai: :tank:

And RyuShiKan is correct - I stopped by his dojo and got a REAL education... I am bruised on my bruises and blissfully happy for the experience. Go ahead, say forms are crap and the bunkai are useless... Then go to RyuShiKan's dojo and ask him to prove to you otherwise... Go ahead, I dare you. When you are looking back up at him from a place somewhere on the floor, with one or more limbs screaming in pain and a complete inability to regain control of your body, you can continue to tell him how he is just full of so much hot air...



I have done katas before no need to tell me what they teach.I always told why we did katas and that essence of karate is in the katas.In order to confront someone properly you must have good balance,focus,speed and distance and proper foot work and joint manipulation as you mentioned.

However are martial artists mistaken by what katas really do teach other then focus,balance and joint manipulation?I think so.

Let me explain what I mean by this.Kata,while it may teach many things it doesn't teach the essential stuff for a real confrontation.

Katas don't really teach the proper foot work many claim it does,because going in the type of stances that many martial arts schools practice such has zenkutsu dachi,sanchin,shico dachi ,just to mention a few,would be really be pointless.

In one sentence you mentioned practicing kata only because you were told you had to,and that's exactly what it is like with most martial artists.They feel like because it was taught to them that way they have to teach it the way they were shown,well many do anyways.

You also mentioned timing for katas,in which way?The only timing in katas is from doing them at exact same time as others do in the dojo,can't exactly be timing with the air right?LOL.What good is learning timing if you're not doing it one on one with a partner.Katas are pre-arranged air movements basically.

In Pankration we practice timing realistically by someone kicking or punching right at us and practice blocking and creating an opening where there is no opening in order execute a punch or kick.We also practice timing by bobbing side to side of punches coming straight at us or ducking under hook punches.If we don't block,bobb or duck on time we will obviously get hit,but with practice you get better and better.

So to talk about timing in kata makes no sense to me.I know there is timing involved but not type that would avoid you from getting kicked or punched in head.

Comparing katas to text books needed to pass a class is pathetic,because yes in class you need books but in martial arts you don't need kata.Martial Arts can be done without forms and this will help you improve more and faster.

Now that's something to laugh at"Bottom-line is forms must be practiced to do otherwise is to limit your ability to what is being taught"
It's more like the other way around.To practice kata is to put limits on your ability of what is being taught and your capability of doing much more.

I transfered over from a kata martial arts to a non-kata martial arts and I'm now a much faster and more focused fighter,as well as have better balance and stamina.I may get hurt more sometimes in this art but I come out the winner in the end.I would be willing to beat just about any black belt of any style.Another style similar to mine, I might , maybe even tie or could lose can,it could come out anyway, but against kata people I'd definitely win.

If traditional arts(kata arts) are so good and katas are so important in order to become a trully good fighter,then why is it we never see karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,tai chi etc in UFC unless they also have knowledge in other styles that don't teach forms?

I've never heard of someone in karate or tae kwon do fight in UFC.Those who knew Tae Kwon Do also knew grappling and kickboxing .

Another example is: The Gracie's always won their fight except
one and they don't do forms.

Shamrock as everyone knows is one of UFC's
toughest fighters and good at what he
does.He wins most of his fights and he too
doesn't practice katas.

Another no kata person who has won in a
UFC fight by knockout is Lance Gibson.Infact
he says he is totally against katas and I
know he doesn't teach them.This Guy is 2nd
in the world right now,must mean something.

Seems to me all the same people who don't waste time with katas(or at least don't solely really their training on them) are also the same people who win their fights.

I noticed the winners in the UFC are either Shooto Fighters,Pankrationists and Grapplers.In UFC it helps to know both stand up and grappling.

Now if that doesn't say it all I don't know what does.Only the best fighters in the world are allowed to fight in the octagon.

A karate ka or tae kwon do person wouldn't last more than a minute in the octagon, if even that long.

I also think that if the UFC had existed at the time of many of those masters of traditional styles,even the masters would have lost,because they're not used to realistic street defense techniques,only their little fancy moves that appear to look good to some one who has never done martial arts before.

Everyone knows Kung Fu monks to have alot of internal powers that many people don't have and would take a life time to discover and are also known to be able to take alot of hard hits and do unusual stuff that most can only wonder how it could be done,but in a UFC fight even they would lose.So call them masters all you want,but know what that really means.

[kimura]

Re Asoka:

I fully understand your claims. I have heard them myself sooo many times... UFC this and UFC that. I am sorry to inform you that both in UFC and Pride (i find it interesting to watch too) ther ARE rules and rules is not reality !! Why do you think Judo, wrestlers and BJJ's always win ? It might be because is is not legal to kick in the groin, poke out eyes, use weapons or doing finger or toe techniques... It is very naive to believe that UFC and Pride is reality !!! Furthermore it is one on one !!How effective is it that a BJJ practitioner do grabbling on an attacker if his 5 friends are there too ?? Wake up... There are many nonrealistic moves or techniques in any martial art, but these techniques might have a purpose other than being able to win in UFC, they might have a purpose of teaching calmness and not aggressiveness, thereby controlling a situation instead of beginning with the punches !! Martial arts have a history of hundreds of years, and I do believe that this development does not end with UFC and Pride !! I am sure we can go beyond that however not physically... You also mention that you come out as a winner?? Some teacher went wrong with you somewhere, as winning in martial arts is not using it at all !! You have to figure out that there are a lot of difference between sports and martisl arts !! Between sports and reality !

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka


I have done katas before no need to tell me what they teach.


Must be nice to know everything already. :rolleyes:



Originally posted by asoka

Katas don't really teach the proper foot work many claim it does,because going in the type of stances that many martial arts schools practice such has zenkutsu dachi,sanchin,shico dachi ,just to mention a few,would be really be pointless.

(post 1)
Yiliquan1,
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we work on technique and footwork from the KATA on Sat. using pretty real timing[? I seem to remember we did.




Originally posted by asoka

You also mentioned timing for katas,in which way?The only timing in katas is from doing them at exact same time as others do in the dojo,can't exactly be timing with the air right?LOL.What good is learning timing if you're not doing it one on one with a partner.Katas are pre-arranged air movements basically.

See post 1 for comment.



Originally posted by asoka

So to talk about timing in kata makes no sense to me..

That's obvious. :flame:



Originally posted by asoka

I know there is timing involved but not type that would avoid you from getting kicked or punched in head.

Again, See post 1 for comment.


Originally posted by asoka

I transfered over from a kata martial arts to a non-kata martial arts and I'm now a much faster and more focused fighter,as well as have better balance and stamina.I may get hurt more sometimes in this art but I come out the winner in the end.I would be willing to beat just about any black belt of any style.Another style similar to mine, I might , maybe even tie or could lose can,it could come out anyway, but against kata people I'd definitely win.


Is that so.......



Originally posted by asoka

Now if that doesn't say it all I don't know what does.Only the best fighters in the world are allowed to fight in the octagon.


So why haven't I seen you there "hot stuff"? :flushed:




Originally posted by asoka

I also think that if the UFC had existed at the time of many of those masters of traditional styles,even the masters would have lost,because they're not used to realistic street defense techniques,only their little fancy moves that appear to look good to some one who has never done martial arts before.

That is where you are dead wrong and here is why.
I seem to remember Itosu (a karate kata guy from about 100 years ago) at the age of 75 beating a Japanese Jujutsu expert.
I also remember Motobu Choki (another karate kata guy from about 100 years ago) not only beating but killing (died after the fight) a western boxer in Osaka. Just to name 2 examples...there are more.
Having said that, Motobu Choki got in a fight with several folks that were "kata people", Yabu Kensu, Itarashiki, and his brother Choyu, they all whipped his ass. Before those fights Choki was not interested in kata, just fighting..........afterwards he changed his mind........wonder why. :D
The fact is waaaaay back when in the "Olden Days" when 2 guys fought there weren't any nice referees to stop the fight and thereby stop someone from killing you. When 2 guys fought there was a good chance only one of them was going home afterwards.
People took martial arts and fighting more seriously back then. There weren't any cute little trophies, or medals, referees, and so on. What you won was the right to go home alive, if you were un-scathed.......that was a bonus.

[Rich Parsons]

To all,

For those that see nothing in Kata, that is
what they see for that is what they choose to see.

For those that see it as a drill to teach balance
and technique, etc., ..., then this is what they
see in Kata.

For those that see all the variations of the moves
including short stances and rotations and
translations of techniques then this is what they
see in Kata.

Some of this is do to the Student and their
perceptions of the art and what is trying to be
taught to them. To that I say, ok 1 + 1 is 2.
WHY?????? Show me why????? Sometimes you have to
accept something to be able to move on to get the
knowledge to later go back and prove the pervious
assumptions. Now, this does not mean the question
is wrong, for that is growth in the student in
itself when they have learned enough in life to
ask for a further explanation, but sometimes
it has to be taken on faith until the education
of the student is more complete.

Some of this is due to the Instructor and their
perceptions of the Kata and their art. They pass
on their own issues and attitudes to their
students. To balance this it is good to have
multiple instructors in the same art that have
a slightly different opinion. This will allow the
student to see more views. Although it can be
confusing to the student when they are looking
for an absolute. As in the English there are no
absolutes, I also believe there are no absolutes
in Martial Arts. There will always be one person
who steps or their timing or, ..., .what ever is
better or different from anything you have ever
seen or trained before.

Some of this is the art itself. If the art has
taken on the approach that the Kata is he end all
then many times (Not All) the art does not have
contact or timing against a real opponent. Now
some arts do teach this real well, but this might
go back to the instructor.

Now, I do not like forms / Kata. I tech forms to
beginners for balance and position and a list of
scheduled techniques. In the advance ranks the
students learn how to take them apart and turn
90 degrees versus 180 degrees. They learn that
it works against the opponents right or left side,
even though the application / execution may have
to change slightly. I do find them useful.

Now to answer a question of can an Art remove its
forms and still proceed? Not sure of this, but I
do know that the traditional Filipino Martial Arts
do not have forms. The closest thing to a form
is their basic striking drill to teach the angles,
and this is done with the instructor. It looks
like a dance, and this also begins the students
instruction on timing. So, Arts can survive with
out Kata or forms.

I also think that those that believe one way are
not going to be persuaded to go another way until
that person chooses too.

Just my Opinion on this subject for what it is
worth.

Thank you for your time

Rich

:asian:

[Bushido]

Thank you RyuShiKan fot the pictures, yoy are very lucky to train at the "source".

About kata, to me, they teach the proper mechanical execution of the movements: precision, speed, balance, ect. But, there is one point that I do not like; the defensive aspect of forms. There is no guard in kata: attacking with the fist to the hip is silly. That has to be transform. You teach someone a form, and when they spar, they put their fist to the hip when punching. Then you say :"Protect yourself, keep your rear hand high." Then the students say:"Why, I do like in the kata." This is ridiculous. If the kata was a reflexion of sparring (in body positionning) they would be simplier and represent a natural extention of fighting. They do are important, but have to be ajust. Some traditionalist will not agree with me saying it is a sacrifice to transform the kata that masters created. It would say this:kata is not something fix, something rigid, they are guidelines and are in constant evolution, we must go with the flow and continue to make them grow.

-Bushido

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bushido

Thank you RyuShiKan fot the pictures, yoy are very lucky to train at the "source".

The "source" for what I do actually comes from Okinawa and not Japan so in that sense I am not training at the "source".


Originally posted by Bushido
There is no guard in kata: attacking with the fist to the hip is silly. That has to be transform. You teach someone a form, and when they spar, they put their fist to the hip when punching. Then you say :"Protect yourself, keep your rear hand high." Then the students say:"Why, I do like in the kata." This is ridiculous. If the kata was a reflexion of sparring (in body positionning) they would be simplier and represent a natural extention of fighting.



What is ridiculous is when people think and then propagate the myth that keeping the back hand high against the ribs is actually going to protect them, this is a common misconception passed on by Japanese karateka and is not really an Okinawan karateka idea at all, it also shows a great misunderstanding for what that hand position actually means. It is actually part of another technique grab/throw and not meant to protect your ribs or whatever.
This has been my whole point about not understanding kata and the bunkai there in.
People that stand there and think they know what they are looking and say "oh that's crap"...........just shows they don't know what they are really looking at.
The reverse hand pulled back is a classic example.

[Bushido]

Ok, after 20 years of karate, I dont know what i'm talking about, nice. So, talk to me about hand positionning...

-Bushido

[Rob_Broad]

I believe this debate is all about whether you look at Traditonal karate from the Okinanwan stand point or the Japanese point of view. :cheers:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bushido

Ok, after 20 years of karate, I dont know what i'm talking about, nice. So, talk to me about hand positionning...

-Bushido


Studied incorrect information for 2 years or 20 years what difference does it make.
I have met Japanese people that have studied English for over 10 years and can barely introduce themselves in English.
I have also met Japanese Karateka that have studied karate twice as long as you and still have some pretty funny ideas about it.





Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I believe this debate is all about whether you look at Traditonal karate from the Okinanwan stand point or the Japanese point of view. :cheers:


Not really. It is about the usefulness of kata. However, if it is pretty hard to discuss kata application without actually showing it.

[sweeper]

asoka you seem to think a ring fight is a real fight. It is not.

You talk about karteka winning in the ring, would you expect an american football player to be good at soccer? nope probably not.. if you don't train sport specififc you won't be good at the sport.

[Yari]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons


I also think that those that believe one way are
not going to be persuaded to go another way until
that person chooses too.


I like a good discussion, but this is so true!

Let's also remember, that even though we don't agree we can accept each other.

/Yari

[yilishihfu]

If all you are interested in is self-defense and becoming the "baddest" fighter on the block, why bother spending so much time kicking and punching? Buy a shotgun. It's much easier to use, requires much less practice, and is infinitely more effective than martial arts.

Don't forget the second word in the term "martial arts." What we practice is an ART; not just a way of beating the stuffing out of the other fellow.

The forms have been handed down to us by people who studied them their entire adult lives. What the forms teach DOES work. Just because you can't see what they have done in your life does not mean they're worthless.

Learn to "read" them. Look beyond the end of your fist.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilishihfu

If all you are interested in is self-defense and becoming the "baddest" fighter on the block, why bother spending so much time kicking and punching? Buy a shotgun. It's much easier to use, requires much less practice, and is infinitely more effective than martial arts.

I agree.......
I'm a bit partial to the Mark 19 myself.............why just kill it when you can blow it up too. :rockets: :D

[asoka]

Originally posted by sweeper

asoka you seem to think a ring fight is a real fight. It is not.

You talk about karteka winning in the ring, would you expect an american football player to be good at soccer? nope probably not.. if you don't train sport specififc you won't be good at the sport.


No ****!!!!!!!!I'm not stupid.I never said a ring fight was a real fight however it is the closest thing to a real fight.My point was kata people don't practice realistically for a self-defense situation.

Of course I wouldn't expect a football play to be good at soccer just as I don't expect a kata person to be good at self-defense,I would expect them to however have great focus,balance and co-ordination and probablyvery messed up knees after awhile from doing stances like shicko dachi,zenkutus dachi etc.

I know the difference between doing katas and practicing realistically.I've done both.I know very well what katas are for,and I would agree they weren't meant for self-defense in first place although there are some self-defense applications within each katas.

People who do katas think that just because they do forms they will improve their fighting skills,however katas aren't really meant for that,they're more of a way of expressing one's self.But as far as self-defense is concerned many instructors make their students think that katas are the means for being able to defend themselves.You don't need katas in order to become a good fighter,but you do need to practice good fighting skills in order to be a good fighter.

People who claim katas help them for self-defense are misunderstood for what katas are really meant for and that they are useless as far as self-defense despite what they've been told.If you enjoy them then do them,everyone has a right to practice what they want and their opinions just as I do.This post is for opinions and nothing else.

Like I said when opening this post if you don't like what you read and take anything offensive then leave,because we're only hear to state opinions.

[Field Cricket]

Originally posted by kimura

Re Asoka:

I fully understand your claims. I have heard them myself sooo many times... UFC this and UFC that. I am sorry to inform you that both in UFC and Pride (i find it interesting to watch too) ther ARE rules and rules is not reality !! Why do you think Judo, wrestlers and BJJ's always win ?

This is a bit of an aside, but as this has been posted in the General Martial Arts section, I think it should be pointed out that karate/kempo/kung fu are not the only martial arts that use kata/forms for training. These include Judo, though nowadays not to the extent it used to be simply because of the attitude "it's not a real fight so not important". More on this in a moment.

Another assumption that seems to have been made is that kata only involves one person. This is certainly that case in karate, but Judo kata and some sword art forms involve two or more people. Aikido can be thought of as being taught almost exclusively through two or more person forms. Your "opponents" may not be as aggressive as in a full out competition/fight, but there's definitely plenty of scope for him/her to be "awkward". :)

A telling comment (I think) that I come across regularly from judoka who have concentrated on competition randori/shiai and then started to do kata training, is how much their technique has improved and helped their competition fighting.

FC

[Bushido]

RyuShinKan, who are you to say that:"Studied incorrect information for 2 years or 20 years what difference does it make." Just because you dont agree with someone does not mean that they practice the incorrect way. Saying things like that just show you close-mindness.

Never presume my friend, you should know better.

-Bushido

[sweeper]

well asoka the reason I said what you said was you were making comments regarding forms martial arts being effective in the UFC... and my point was training for the ring isn't training for the street. not saying forms training is for a street fight just saying ring fighting isn't either.

one field cricket, you said karte forms are practiced solo? Now I know next to nothing about karate, but I was under the impretion that the forms could be practiced with a partner (or perhaps modified so they could be practiced wtih a partner) this correcT?

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yari



I like a good discussion, but this is so true!

Let's also remember, that even though we don't agree we can accept each other.

/Yari

Yari,

You are corrct, everyone has the right to enter
and to continue this discussion. I agree that
we can accept not only each other but just
about anyone. :) Look most of the members here
have accepted me. :D

Thank you for your response

Rich

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bushido

Ok, after 20 years of karate, I dont know what i'm talking about, nice. So, talk to me about hand positionning...

-Bushido


Well pardon me all to hell.

I guess you didn't write the above then.
My point was it doesn't matter how long you study something if you aren't understanding it correctly or if you have been given erroneous information. You can study it for 20, 40, 60 years but if you are making the same mistakes or still have the same misunderstandings about it the time spent is unimportant.

Hell, look at how long people thought the world was flat.

I am not trying to be snobbish or arrogant just pointing out a basic fact of life.

You were the one that mentioned the hand position and were dissatisfied with the explanation you were given by someone else.
I gave you an alternative explanation, and one that actually makes more sense. If you don't like the news don't shoot the messenger.
Do you actually think Okinawa karate masters would be so stupid as to place their reverse hand next to their chest while in a fight........that doesn't make sense. If one understands the true meaning and technique from the kata it does make sense. Given the high level of technique found within karate it would seem irrational to do something like that. The hand position is actually for another technique which I am too lazy to write out and explain.
Only people that don't understand kata look at it on the surface and say "that's crap it would never work in a real fight". The only reason they would say such a thing is because they haven't been exposed to kata explanation at a more in depth level.

Maybe we should all believe what most Japanese Karateka try to disseminate..........things like Karate was developed by peasant farmers in Okinawa.............naihanchi kata is practiced side to side so farmers could practice in between the rice paddies. :rolleyes: Why not.......that has been the standard explanation over here for more than 50 years............and still is for some people here. Even though there is not one ounce of fact or evidence to support such claims.



To those of you that think kata is useless/ stupid waste of time...............fine it's your opinion. But don't come into this forum and spray your opinion all over the place like a dog taking a piss on a fire hydrant...............then it is no longer an opinion it just means you are looking for trouble.
In the end for those of you that say you do understand kata and still feel it is a waste, all I can say is that if you really understood it we would be having this conversation.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper



one field cricket, you said karte forms are practiced solo? Now I know next to nothing about karate, but I was under the impretion that the forms could be practiced with a partner (or perhaps modified so they could be practiced wtih a partner) this correcT?


The forms can be practiced alone although some, very few, are practiced with a partner.

The bunkai from the forms are practiced with a partner to various levels of speed and realism dependent on the level of the people practicing. This is similar in the way that judoka work on specific throws, boxers work on certain punches against a bag, or kendoka work on certain cuts. Practicing them over and over to make them second nature.

[Bushido]

I DO think that kata are important. Like any intelligent human being I am questionning some points of it. I havent and I will not bash kata. I was just seaching and intelligent reason for the fist to the hip. I really want to hear peoples opinion on that subjet.

-Bushido

[tshadowchaser]

I like doing most katas that I know. From the most basic forms that taught me basic stance and movement, to the most complex I have learned formthem all.
I find that I do use the techniques fighting that I learned in the forms, in fact some of my best techniques came from my forms.
Shadow

[arnisador]

Thw point about two-person forms--more common in kung fu than karate--is a good one.

Kata need not be all of one's practice! It aids stance and focus and helps perfect technique. I think it does much more, but even if someone disagrees, note that one can extract techniques from the kata and practice them with someone--doing that is in fact expected!

As to hand on the rib cage and all that, I suggest the seminars/tapes/books by George Dillman. Ignore the pressure point stuff for now--just look at how he interprets these techniques as locking techniques with finishes. Very realistic in most cases.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador


As to hand on the rib cage and all that, I suggest the seminars/tapes/books by George Dillman. Ignore the pressure point stuff for now--just look at how he interprets these techniques as locking techniques with finishes. Very realistic in most cases.



I agreed with you up until you mentioned the above person. I would suggest you take a look at tapes made by Taika Oyata instead.

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan





I agreed with you up until you mentioned the above person. I would suggest you take a look at tapes made by Taika Oyata instead.

I have been fortunate to attend several Dillman events and he does have some very good points. He is often looked down upon by many traditionalists because he does not follow the party line, but he does have a wealth of knowledge and has trained with many of the top masters.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I agreed with you up until you mentioned the above person. I would suggest you take a look at tapes made by Taika Oyata instead.

I've stopped attending George Dillman's seminars because of the bizarre directions he has gone in. Still, his basic bunkai--let's skip all issues of pressure points for now--indicate interpretations of the kata that seem much more likely to be accurate and useful than the traditional down block followed by two punches followed by a rising block and a turn. His work is also much more accessible than Taika Oyata, it seems to me--you can find his books in Waldenbooks, Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc., and his seminars across the USA. Hence, for illustrative purposes, I felt he'd serve and be practical. I doubt someone would order a tape to settle an Internet argument but they might flip through a book the next time they're at a bookstore.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



I have been fortunate to attend several Dillman events and he does have some very good points. He is often looked down upon by many traditionalists because he does not follow the party line, but he does have a wealth of knowledge and has trained with many of the top masters.



We could debate Dillman's skill level or lack of all day........I still stay Taika Oyata is about 50 years senior on him in the study of karate/tuite/kyusho/and kobudo.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



His work is also much more accessible than Taika Oyata, it seems to me--you can find his books in Waldenbooks, Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc., and his seminars across the USA. Hence, for illustrative purposes,

The reason why you won't see anything written by Mr. Oyata on the bookshelf might be due to the fact that he probably doesn't believe martial arts could be learned from a book.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

The reason why you won't see Mr. Oyata on the bookshelf might be due to the fact that he probably doesn't believe martial arts could be learned from a book.

That's great. But I don't see what it has to do with anything. I think looking at George Dillman's books is a practical way to show someone the basics of legitimate kata applications. I don't see how Mr. Oyata's lack of a book could possibly contribute to this.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



His work is also much more accessible than Taika Oyata, it seems to me--you can find his books in Waldenbooks, Barnes and Noble, Borders,



That's why

[Rob_Broad]

It appears to me this thread has drifted form it's original topic of whether kata should be kept or not. Maybe we could start another thread to discuss the merits of Mr. Oyata and Mr. Dillman.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Maybe we could start another thread to discuss the merits of Mr. Oyata and Mr. Dillman.


It has beeen done on another BB many times.......it's not worth the time or effort.

[sweeper]

why are kata so broadly mis interpreted?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper

why are kata so broadly mis interpreted?



That is a good question.
My own personal feeling is it is the way karate training and teaching changed in the first part of the last Century.
Originally there was a 1 to 1 teaching environment which was very personal and teacher and student could spend time going over detailed information on kata and it's techniques. Since the first part of the last Century group instruction has taken over and teaching details about kata is nearly impossible in large groups. Also the emphasis and motivation has changed to a great degree as well. Profit and sport being the motivation and emphasis for some.
I have several friends in Japanese karate systems over here. They said when they are training kata 99.9% of their time is spent on training for how it looks for competition rather than what the techniques are for.

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan





That is a good question.
My own personal feeling is it is the way karate training and teaching changed in the first part of the last Century.
Originally there was a 1 to 1 teaching environment which was very personal and teacher and student could spend time going over detailed information on kata and it's techniques. Since the first part of the last Century group instruction has taken over and teaching details about kata is nearly impossible in large groups. Also the emphasis and motivation has changed to a great degree as well. Profit and sport being the motivation and emphasis for some.
I have several friends in Japanese karate systems over here. They said when they are training kata 99.9% of their time is spent on training for how it looks for competition rather than what the techniques are for.


Well RyuShiKan,I agree with your friends.Most schools are like that,they concentrate on how impressive they will look in competition rather than what the techniques are for.Your friends are 100% correct.

That's the other problem with many schools.They only care about how good they will look,not how effective is what they really teach.

If katas are so effective and important to learn why is it most instructors themselves don't even know the bunkai to the katas they teach.I know the bunkai to my katas,but only because I figured it out on my own and also partly because I found books on the styles I had been taking at the time,my instructor never showed us the bunkai.

When I first did karate we did katas,sparring and weapons in every class,after a few years ,we stuck to doing only katas in class and did sparring when he knew a tournament was coming up and some weapons.He claimed katas on its own can help improve a person's fighting ability without getting hurt,but got us to sparr just to give us some extra help anyways.Other then tournaments coming up we hardly ever sparred.

He liked to claim that katas are the foundation of improving techniques which a true martial artist needs to know before he is able to defend himself whether inside or outside of martial arts and that without proper form one is unable to properly focus on his opponent and keep his balance or co-ordination,and that katas are supposed to strengthen you both physically and mentally to prepare you for any situation.

We did do some drills that I could say would be effective and came from the katas,but most didn't come from the forms because I get the feeling he didn't know the bunkai to the forms he taught ,either that or knew himself that they would be useless to teach as a drill.

From my own experience and from what I know of all my katas I have come to the conclusion that katas are meant only as a foundation,and to strengthen you physically and mentally,however they aren't really as good a foundation as claimed and are not really needed in order to be a good fighter.

So if katas aren't really needed ,then what is?

Proper movement from a regular fighting stance,focus,balance,co-ordination,speed,power (strength is not important),proper mind set (fighting mentality),knowing how to properly block,kick,punch,grappling and avoid it happening back to you.

Learning both defensive and offensive is important.In order to protect yourself you have to know what it would be like to be on the offensive side.You simply can't learn one without the other.

True speed comes from heavy bag training and recieving punchess and to avoid them as well as how to react back quickly.

Many karate people for example think that you don't need actual contact or actually blocking of tecniques to become quicker,many martial artsist have come to the assumption that katas on its own can help them develop speed with lots of practice,this is so untrue.

You can do katas for the rest of your life,but without any actual contact or practicing of avoiding a punch or kick,you will still not gain speed,you might have strong legs and good focus though.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka


Well RyuShiKan,I agree with your friends.Most schools are like that,they concentrate on how impressive they will look in competition rather than what the techniques are for.Your friends are 100% correct.


I am not sure what you mean.
Are you saying they are correct in only practicing for looks or are you agreeing that most styles only practice for looks?




Originally posted by asoka


If katas are so effective and important to learn why is it most instructors themselves don't even know the bunkai to the katas they teach.


I answered that to some degree in one of my posts above.


Originally posted by asoka

I know the bunkai to my katas,but only because I figured it out on my own and also partly because I found books on the styles I had been taking at the time,my instructor never showed us the bunkai.

I have never found learning karate or any martial art from a book to be useful. I think most arts are too complex and require "hands on" by a good "qualified" teacher to be fully understood. Plus, what do you do if you have a question...........you can't ask a book.


(The reason why I emphasize "qualified" is that there are so many bozos running around these days claiming they are qualified when they aren't and there by giving wrong or at least inaccurate information out)

[sweeper]

asoka sounds like you just had a bad instructor. od you have any experience with a good instructor that knows what he is doing (and teaching an art that practices forms)?

I mean if I were to go out and teach people kali and you were to come to one of my classes you would probably think kali just sucked.. it's not that it is a bad art just I don't know nearly enough to teach.

[sweeper]

another question.. why would an instructor be alowed to teach if he/she didn't know the bunkai to the kata?

[arnisador]

The makiwara served some of the purposes of a heavy bag.

The Dragon Times (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/Dthome.htm) has numerous online interviews with karateka that address training in the old days. Here's one:
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articleg.htm

There are others, and they're very informative on this and other issues. If there's a martial arts magazine out there with higher quality content, I don't know it!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by sweeper

another question.. why would an instructor be alowed to teach if he/she didn't know the bunkai to the kata?

A vote in favor of licensing of instructors? Count me out!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper

another question.. why would an instructor be alowed to teach if he/she didn't know the bunkai to the kata?

Sometimes they are not "allowed", and in most cases of the "bogus teacher" they study at one place for a very short time and then make their own group and declare themselves king of the hill.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



A vote in favor of licensing of instructors? Count me out!


Do you mean like a drivers license issued by the state or some governing body?
Or licensing by your own instructor?

[yilishihfu]

Clearly, you have practiced your forms incorrectly for a very long time. You have MEMORIZED them but you do not KNOW them.

Forms are NOT intended to be ways in which we can "express ourselves!" If you want to do that, take up modern jazz dancing.

Fighting "in the ring" isn't even close to actual combat. In REAL combat there are no rules. No referees. Only survival.

While form practice alone is not adequate for the complete development of ocmbative skill, they ARE necessary and a vitally important component of such training. Various combative drills (which include REAL sparring as opposed to much of what we see nowadays) are also necessary.
Of the two, forms are by far the most important.

I suggest you find a good teacher who can explain the truth to you.

[sweeper]

Arnisador I don't think that's what I'm talking about (but not quite sure what you mean). I mean it's one thing to say "you can't teach" it's another to say "you aren't ready to teach and if you do it don't do it under this name" you know what I mean

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by sweeper

Arnisador I don't think that's what I'm talking about (but not quite sure what you mean). I mean it's one thing to say "you can't teach" it's another to say "you aren't ready to teach and if you do it don't do it under this name" you know what I mean

I actually understood the post before the same way Arnisador did. I think it may not have been worded properly.

[sweeper]

well let me put it this way than, usua;y before someone teaches their instructor (or someone) gives them the green light right?

so why did someone give them the green light?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper


so why did someone give them the green light?


That was my point. Someone most likely didn't.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Do you mean like a drivers license issued by the state or some governing body?

This is what I was referring to--the New York state legislature recently considered this. I would not support it. Instructor's permission is a different matter of course.

[Matt Stone]

I was going to respond to Asoka's commentary, but then realized I just don't have the strength to continue banging my head against a brick wall...

His own comments betray him, when he admits that forms have self-defense applications within them, and he belies his own ignorance of forms by saying he knows all the breakdowns of the forms he learned because he figured them out on his own...

I quit. There is no longer any real point in continuing to debate this with him, as he has obviously formed his opinions, closed his mind to the issue, and is so well trained that none of us have enough information to open his mind back up again...

I will just go ahead and continue practicing my inferior martial arts forms, my inferior martial arts defence techniques, and my inferior forms breakdowns...

RyuShiKan - can't make it Saturday (guard duty - lucky me!)... Let me know your schedule beyond that.

:samurai: :tank:

[RyuShiKan]

Yiliquan1,

I have to agree.

I think Assoka has accomplished what he set out to................and that is to stir up trouble.
Just as an example, If I went to the section that deals with NHB/UFC and said something similar about their art, can you imagine the reaction I would get..........what other motivation would I have other than making trouble.
How could I possibly qualify my posts as being sincere since I already have a set opinion and am unwilling to change it.......fact is I couldn't.
My question wouldn't be sincere or genuine.
Why the moderators of this BB and others let this kind of crap appear I don't know........since they know it will only make trouble and they will eventually have to come in with fire hoses and cool people down. Maybe that's what they want, nothing like a little controversy to get attention.

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Yiliquan1,

I have to agree.

I think Assoka has accomplished what he set out to................and that is to stir up trouble.
Just as an example, If I went to the section that deals with NHB/UFC and said something similar about their art, can you imagine the reaction I would get..........what other motivation would I have other than making trouble.
How could I possibly qualify my posts as being sincere since I already have a set opinion and am unwilling to change it.......fact is I couldn't.
My question wouldn't be sincere or genuine.
Why the moderators of this BB and others let this kind of crap appear I don't know........since they know it will only make trouble and they will eventually have to come in with fire hoses and cool people down. Maybe that's what they want, nothing like a little controversy to get attention.


Hey look bud,if you think I'm trying to cause trouble and you don't like what I post in here then get the hell out of here.I created this particular post for opinions as every one is doing.I gave my opinion and just answering back to questions asked to me or statements I don't agree with,as I've said before in first part of this post,everything here is based on opinion and person's experience if you find anything offensive then don't bother coming in here and bitching about it.No one is forcing you to post or to read the posts.Obviously can't be too bad in here if you keep coming back.So instead of your bitching why don't you just **** off.

I have been doing nothing wrong,I'm reading other people opinions and giving mine as well,no one here is forced to agree with me.I want to hear other people's opinion whether they agree or not.It's interesting to know what other people think.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka


Hey look bud,if you think I'm trying to cause trouble and you don't like what I post in here then get the hell out of here.I created this particular post for opinions as every one is doing.I gave my opinion and just answering back to questions asked to me or statements I don't agree with,as I've said before in first part of this post,everything here is based on opinion and person's experience if you find anything offensive then don't bother coming in here and bitching about it.No one is forcing you to post or to read the posts.Obviously can't be too bad in here if you keep coming back.So instead of your bitching why don't you just **** off.

I have been doing nothing wrong,I'm reading other people opinions and giving mine as well,no one here is forced to agree with me.I want to hear other people's opinion whether they agree or not.It's interesting to know what other people think.


Yeah :rolleyes: I can tell by your posts your whole purpose for bringing this discussion topic up was some "enlightening debate" :angel: and nothing more.

[Yari]

Everbody is entitled to their meaning, and opionen. But calling each other "names" isn't right.

I don't agree with asoka, but I will defend his right to believe in what he believes in this case.

So lets get back to some constructive arguments!


/Yari

[asoka]

Originally posted by sweeper

another question.. why would an instructor be alowed to teach if he/she didn't know the bunkai to the kata?


Very good question and I agree,so why don't you ask the 95% of martial arts instructors out there.

[asoka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by asoka

[B]

[asoka]

Originally posted by asoka




Very good question and I agree,so why don't you ask the 95% of martial arts instructors out there?

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I have never found learning karate or any martial art from a book to be useful. I think most arts are too complex and require "hands on" by a good "qualified" teacher to be fully understood. Plus, what do you do if you have a question...........you can't ask a book.


(The reason why I emphasize "qualified" is that there are so many bozos running around these days claiming they are qualified when they aren't and there by giving wrong or at least inaccurate information out)


I meant that I agree some styles practice to look good.I never said all though.

Well here is one thing we actually agree on,that there is no book that can be useful enough to teach complex moves that require a
"hands on"by a good qualified teacher.

The only reason the book may have helped me is because I already knew the katas, just needed to know the bunkai,and could tell by what it says and pictures,and practiced on some friends till I felt comfortable with it and it made sense to me.

Obviously if I didn't know my katas to begin with chances are the book wouldn't have done any good.I don't believe someone can learn any style of martial arts from a book or video,not as much as from an instructor anyways,but that's stating the obvious.

I'm sure we could agree that many instructors don't know the bunkai to the forms,perhaps some do,but not many.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka



I'm sure we could agree that many instructors don't know the bunkai to the forms,perhaps some do,but not many.

I have no problem with someone that doesn't know the bunkai for kata.........and says so to that effect. You can't blame someone for not knowing something if they have never been exposed to it.
It's the guys that claim to know bunkai and don't really, The ones that just pull some goofy technique out of their backside and haven't thought it out well..............the ones that will get you real hurt real quick in a real situation.
I have a major dislike for those guys. They are the ones that give people a false feeling of security.
Kind of like the guy that teaches the latest craze at my gym........."Body Kombat" I think it's called. It so bad it makes Tae-Bo look lethal!
All these woman and even some guys go there and are told that "this will protect you". I just hope they never have to rely on it.

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I have no problem with someone that doesn't know the bunkai for kata.........and says so to that effect. You can't blame someone for not knowing something if they have never been exposed to it.
It's the guys that claim to know bunkai and don't really, The ones that just pull some goofy technique out of their backside and haven't thought it out well..............the ones that will get you real hurt real quick in a real situation.
I have a major dislike for those guys. They are the ones that give people a false feeling of security.
Kind of like the guy that teaches the latest craze at my gym........."Body Kombat" I think it's called. It so bad it makes Tae-Bo look lethal!
All these woman and even some guys go there and are told that "this will protect you". I just hope they never have to rely on it.


Ya I know what you mean,I've heard people claim they do kickboxing and aren't afraid to defend themselves now,then you ask them where they took lessons and they mention Tae Bo,that makes me laugh.For one,Tae bo is martial arts in the form of aerobics not the actual martial arts,but people have been mislead to believe that doing those exercises are no different from learning actual martial arts.While the techniques maybe the same,the purpose and the way it is done is different.By people thinking Tae Bo is same as doing karate or kickboxing or any martial arts is basically insulting the M.A as far as I am concerned.

That's like saying apples and oranges taste the same just because they're both fruites.

[chufeng]

Asoka,

Bunkai is NOT a matter of "opinion."
It is a matter of knowledge...

If you don't KNOW the actual applications of the movements in your kata...then you are NOT qualified to say that "kata is no good for self-defense."

Seiyu Oyata KNOWS the real bunkai...and can apply it with very painful results (and that's when he's being nice).

Practice does NOT make perfect if one practices wrong...
Correct practice makes perfect...and I think 20 years in martial arts is a good start...

BUT, even the founders of the major systems, after a lifetime of study, admitted that they had much more to learn...I think we would all do well to remember how much we still don't know.

Asoka, you do a disservice to those young impressionable minds who are just beginning and who may actually put stock in your opinion...you shackle them with false ideas about kata training... If you choose to toss aside kata training, that is your right; but don't hamper the development of those who follow in your footsteps...one day, one of your students may show YOU the value of kata training...Our best teachers are often our own students.

:asian:
chufeng

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks,
Theres a lot of good info in this thread, and alot of personal experience too. Unfortunately, things seem to be heading for a major headbutting.

If you have a personal issue with someone, please take it to email or PM.

We are locking this thread so that everyone can cool off a bit.

If you wish to pick up some of the issues, etc raised in here, please do so in a new thread, and try to keep it professional. Name calling and personal cuts do nothing to aid your argument, nor sway the reader to your side. We welcome friendly (sometime heated) debate, but personal shots, etc aren't acceptable.

We thank you for your understanding.

Bob Hubbard
-MartialTalk Admin Team-