Why would anyone issue "honory rank?"

[James Kovacich]

Why would anyone issue "honorary rank" to a "living, able bodied" martial art practitioner?

To me it just dosen't make any sense. Either someone is worthy of rank or they are not. No "inbetween's." I think that if someone issues "honorary rank" and comes to regret it later. They deserve ALL of the "after affects" that they have "created for themselves."

They made their bed, now they have to lie in it.

I think in the case of honorying deceased individuals it should be up to in the individual instructor but it still does not make much sense.

[Bester]

I think people should test for rank, not buy, borrow or just assume it.
*shrug*
How many people jump grades because of favors they did?
How many people buy their ranks through mills and "soke" councils?

People that award honorary ranks need to realize that not everyone is honorable. Some people will suck up enough to get it, then do what they want with it.
They are scumbags, but, what can you do?

Send them an email butt kicking?

[ppko]

Why would anyone issue "honorary rank" to a "living, able bodied" martial art practitioner?

To me it just dosen't make any sense. Either someone is worthy of rank or they are not. No "inbetween's." I think that if someone issues "honorary rank" and comes to regret it later. They deserve ALL of the "after affects" that they have "created for themselves."

They made their bed, now they have to lie in it.

I think in the case of honorying deceased individuals it should be up to in the individual instructor but it still does not make much sense.I agree with this statement. I know that most of the time that honorary rank is givin (at least from what I have seen) it has been givin to non-Martial Artist for there contributions to the arts, or to Martial Artist that have passed on.

[ppko]

I think people should test for rank, not buy, borrow or just assume it.
*shrug*
How many people jump grades because of favors they did?
How many people buy their ranks through mills and "soke" councils?

People that award honorary ranks need to realize that not everyone is honorable. Some people will suck up enough to get it, then do what they want with it.
They are scumbags, but, what can you do?

Send them an email butt kicking?You can now buy your rank off of ebay.:rolleyes:

[Jerry]

Depends on which version of "honorary" you mean. There are three I can think of.

1. Ranks which are designed to be given for things other than knowledgebase / ability to perform (such as dan rankings over 5th in most Japanese arts).

2. Ranks handed out as "legitemate" based on an existing body of knowledge, rather than formalized testing (perhaps handing out a black-belt (knowledge of the basics) to the guy that comes into your school with a 20-year background in a similar art).

3. Ranks which are not intended as legitemate, but to honor the recipient (handing out a posthumous black-belt to a student-instructor who died of cancer after years in the school).

[clfsean]

Several reasons...

1) I rank you, you rank me... that way we can support each other's outrageous claims... :roll: :bs1:

2) I rank you, get a pic made with you... that way people can see I train famous people or SOCOM forces... :bs1:

3) I rank you, now go away & bother somebody else... hopefully you'll get the clue... more times than not, no clue is received by the recipient so we now have an abundance of Soke Dokey Life members with ill gotten & misunderstood certificates. Roll out the trucks of reality pills...

4) Money money money...

I'm sure I forgot one or more... please feel free to add on!

[Andrew Green]

To honor a person...?

Sometimes a person can do something for the organization without being a practitioner, and it can be a way of recognizing that contribution.

Let's just say a celebrity or politician of some sort where to promote a system and get it more mainstream recognition, or get a lot of people involved and training, maybe lend there name to a charity event of an organization. Basically being a big help to the organization, what is wrong with recognizing there high standing in the organization despite not being a practitioner?

[clfsean]

To honor a person...?

Sometimes a person can do something for the organization without being a practitioner, and it can be a way of recognizing that contribution.

Let's just say a celebrity or politician of some sort where to promote a system and get it more mainstream recognition, or get a lot of people involved and training, maybe lend there name to a charity event of an organization. Basically being a big help to the organization, what is wrong with recognizing there high standing in the organization despite not being a practitioner?
Nothing ... provided that they're not a practicing martial artists or passing themselves off as one...

Otherwise see me #2 item.

:D

[James Kovacich]

Thanks guys!

[terryl965]

I believe no rank should be given as honorary either you did or did not earn your rank just like college degree buy them for $19.95 on e-bay with all the credintals in the world rank means nothing anymore anybody witha dime can obtain one in this world we call far.

[Andrew Green]

College's can give out honorary degrees....

I'm not positive, but I believe Kano awarded a few honorary ranks, and he created the system as it applies to martial arts...

[hammer]

Personally , all rank is really ridicules whether its a yellow belt or a blackbelt of any dan/degree,And here is why. Just have a look at the current marketing programs offered by some schools, Jeet black belt program, express black belt program, You all have seen them. Not to mention those schools that grade every three months,children as young as 6 with a black belt ,the Mcdojo's ,
Sokeships Councils, Ebay, Home study programs, you Rank me ill Rank you. Crossing Associations. Even a parent can get a black belt if they run the schools raffle. Hey why not start your own system and be at the top to begin with.The list goes on and on.

There all honoray in rank ??

Its primarily a cash cow!! or what you can do for me!!

Yes your important here's a belt . As the future unfolds this will become increasing more evident.

Anyway just my 2 cents worth
Cheers

[MJS]

Why would anyone issue "honorary rank" to a "living, able bodied" martial art practitioner?

To me it just dosen't make any sense. Either someone is worthy of rank or they are not. No "inbetween's." I think that if someone issues "honorary rank" and comes to regret it later. They deserve ALL of the "after affects" that they have "created for themselves."

They made their bed, now they have to lie in it.

I think in the case of honorying deceased individuals it should be up to in the individual instructor but it still does not make much sense.

I agree!! IMO, you either earn it or you don't. If I'm going to wear a rank, I want it to be a legit rank, not something that was given to me. Why not have the knowledge of the art that comes with the rank?

Mike

[Dronak]

To honor a person...?

Exactly. It's called "honorary" for a reason -- you haven't gone through the full set of standard trials and tribulations required to achieve it. So if you are already aware of this fact and know that it's not the same as one you earn, why complain? Just like universities can award honorary doctorates, why couldn't a MA school issue honorary black belts? AFAIK in academics, the honorary degree is issued in recognition of the person's achievements in life, work, helping society in general or perhaps the school specifically. No, they didn't earn it, but I don't think they get the same benefits that earning it does. It ought to be the same in MA. Someone who has done a lot of work promoting the style, bringing it to the public and attracting more students, might be given an honorary black belt in recognition of their work in the name of the art. I don't see anything really wrong with that. It's not like people will expect this person to be able to kick butt like someone who's actually fought their way up to a black belt degree.

Honestly, I don't see why it's a big deal. It's *honorary* and not the same as a regular degree. They're two separate things with two separate sets of benefits. I just earned a PhD; I'm not upset about people who got honorary PhDs. They haven't done what I did. I know it, they know it, everyone else knows it. People who earned their black belts are in a different group from ones who got honorary ones and can say the same thing. So where's the issue?

Edit: As far as the recipient being a '"living, able bodied" martial art practitioner', I'm not sure why that's so horrible either. The previous paragraph still applies.

[c2kenpo]

Story:

Man comes into train 3 days a week every week for 3 years does everything his instructors ask of him. Helps out in his community , teaches for a living, works on his own personal challenges doing nothing but attemtpting to IMPROVE himself as an individual and to make a difference in his community.

Well educated, beloved family member who had to work for everything he ever got as nothing was ever handed to him in life. Not rich monetarily rich with freindships and family.

Worked harder then any man I ever knew, to achieve the goals he set forth for himself. During that 3rd year of training Life saw fit to give him a bigger challenge to tackle then what he was already dealing with. CANCER.

For 2 more years he fought and struggled attempting to meet the goals he set forth. Trying every possible method to succeed and beat an enemy that wil yield very rarely. His love for his fellow man and family, never changed. He never came to self-loathing or pity. His love for the martial arts never waivered reading books and studying mentally what he could not physically.

When time came that he knew life was to give him a new journey he met it with more courage then I belive I have in my body. When my instructors asked if I felt an "Honorary Black Belt" was appropriate? I had no question this man showed what a BLACK BELT embodied. He may not have had the physical skills of one but he had the mental and emotional fortitude that I hope to achieve one day.

Yes, we gave him an Honorary Black Belt 4 days before he passed. His family displayed it prominently at his memorial.
And I hope to one day meet him once more and tell him how honored I was to have known him.


God Bless
Thomas Beckly RIP

:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Story:

Man comes into train 3 days a week every week for 3 years does everything his instructors ask of him. Helps out in his community , teaches for a living, works on his own personal challenges doing nothing but attemtpting to IMPROVE himself as an individual and to make a difference in his community.

Well educated, beloved family member who had to work for everything he ever got as nothing was ever handed to him in life. Not rich monetarily rich with freindships and family.

Worked harder then any man I ever knew, to achieve the goals he set forth for himself. During that 3rd year of training Life saw fit to give him a bigger challenge to tackle then what he was already dealing with. CANCER.

For 2 more years he fought and struggled attempting to meet the goals he set forth. Trying every possible method to succeed and beat an enemy that wil yield very rarely. His love for his fellow man and family, never changed. He never came to self-loathing or pity. His love for the martial arts never waivered reading books and studying mentally what he could not physically.

When time came that he knew life was to give him a new journey he met it with more courage then I belive I have in my body. When my instructors asked if I felt an "Honorary Black Belt" was appropriate? I had no question this man showed what a BLACK BELT embodied. He may not have had the physical skills of one but he had the mental and emotional fortitude that I hope to achieve one day.

Yes, we gave him an Honorary Black Belt 4 days before he passed. His family displayed it prominently at his memorial.
And I hope to one day meet him once more and tell him how honored I was to have known him.


God Bless
Thomas Beckly RIP

:asian:
I have to say that is truly the exception. My wife has MS and she's trained longer than any of my students but I've held her back. :asian:

[clfsean]

College's can give out honorary degrees....Yep but the people that receive them are normally bright enough to know not to try to pass themselves off as a newly crowned PhD of Letters or something like that. Being exposed with as a fraud posing with bogus or honorary degrees suffers much worse than somebody on a good ol' boys Soke Dokey Board. We make fun of them sure, hopefully educate people about what they are & send them on their way. Misrepresenting educational degrees (depending on the circumstances) can bring criminal charges & civil liabilites.



I'm not positive, but I believe Kano awarded a few honorary ranks, and he created the system as it applies to martial arts...Sure... but he was a college professor & he never called himself Soke or anything else.

[James Kovacich]

I agree!! IMO, you either earn it or you don't. If I'm going to wear a rank, I want it to be a legit rank, not something that was given to me. Why not have the knowledge of the art that comes with the rank?

Mike
You know, you are 1 of the "few" who are truly a positive force amongst the sometimes quite a bit of nonsense! :asian:

[arnisador]

It's for publicity. I don't like it, but it worked for Jhoon Rhee, Ed Parker, and others to publicize their systems.

The cases of those who are ill, and the comparison to honorary doctorates, do make sense, though.

[jfarnsworth]

I've noticed this thread for a while and just now decided to post for what it's worth.

The only time I witnessed an honorary black belt awarded was with my first martial arts instructor. We had a student in the school winning almost every tournament he went to. Being forms, weapons, and sparring divisions. He was the one we tried to follow to get better. He was a great guy, student, role model, beginning instructor, etc. He was 17 at the time his dad got transfered to another location due to his job. Obviously we knew that he would be able to pass the black belt test but unfortunatley he had to stop at purple. Anyway, on his last class our instructor strapped on his honorary black belt with a certificate that said "honorary" and none of us had ever questioned or thought about it since. Maybe this is what honorary is supposed to be (shrugged shoulders) maybe not. I say do what you like but on this instance I believe it was the right thing to do.
:asian:

[Sarah]

wow....i find it interesting that some people seem so negative almost getting upset at the idea of someone receiving an honorary BB.

All the examples given are good ones, I dont see the big deal. They are give as ' honorary ' and im sure the people that have received them are not thick, they know they are ' honorary ' and like Andrew said they are often people that are not MA'ist.

Other MA'ists that have put in the hard yards to get their BB dont need to feel threatened, it does not take anything away from you. I would find it hard to believe that a person that was thought well of enough to receive a ‘honorary ' BB would be the sort of person that would go off and start a Dojo claiming to be a legit BB...

[Don Roley]

I have seen legitmate casses where honorary ranks have been given out.
The person impresses the giver by his spirit or his abilities in another art. He is not proficient in the art the giver is able to give in, but it is felt that the guy has spirit and is honorable. So as a sign of esteem the honorary rank is given.

The guy who helps translate or mans the desk at the seminar, etc- how else can you really show that this guy worked hard for you while not quite being skilled in the art? It is a sign of thanks for hard work done in some cases.

And in most cases, the person just lists it with no big deal and makes it clear that it is a sign of friendship. The cases we tend to hear about are the abuse of this act.

[Adept]

To be honest, I have little affection for ranks of any kind, be they legitimate or honourary. It is only an aribtrary standard, and one that varies wildly from training venue to training venue. You are only ever as good as you are, no matter the colour of your belt.

[47MartialMan]

I would find it hard to believe that a person that was thought well of enough to receive a ‘honorary ' BB would be the sort of person that would go off and start a Dojo claiming to be a legit BB...
They do.

The whole issue of rank is to symbolize achievement via a material object. Thus, one can view any rank or title over-rated than that of the actual accomplishment. Hiwever, in the world on modern martial arts, practitoners nad non-practitoners alike are infactuated by this object.

Can someone be just as honorary by other means like a plaque, award, etc.?

[Sarah]

They do.

The whole issue of rank is to symbolize achievement via a material object. Thus, one can view any rank or title over-rated than that of the actual accomplishment. Hiwever, in the world on modern martial arts, practitoners nad non-practitoners alike are infactuated by this object.

Can somone be just as honary by other means like a plaque, award, etc.?
I guess people may be a little different over here, if someone is caring/giving/honourable enough to receive such an award then they tend to NOT be the sort of people that would go out and be dishonest about the award they got.

[arnisador]

I guess people may be a little different over here, if someone is caring/giving/honourable enough to receive such an award then they tend to NOT be the sort of people that would go out and be dishonest about the award they got.
Yeah, but you never know.

Still, I'd have to agree it's reasonable in some circumstances. Honorary doctorates are now given out like candy--in the future, everyone will have one--so maybe honorary black belts should be accepted. But, I just don't like 'em.

In fact, one sometimes sees "honorary colonels" (entertainers who support the armed services, for example). I guess part of the difference is that an honorary doctorate (honoris causa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honoris_causa)) and the like are usually clearly labeled as such, but in my experience an honorary black belt usually is not.

[Sarah]

Yeah, but you never know.

Still, I'd have to agree it's reasonable in some circumstances. Honorary doctorates are now given out like candy--in the future, everyone will have one--so maybe honorary black belts should be accepted. But, I just don't like 'em.

In fact, one sometimes sees "honorary colonels" (entertainers who support the armed services, for example). I guess part of the difference is that an honorary doctorate (honoris causa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honoris_causa)) and the like are usually clearly labeled as such, but in my experience an honorary black belt usually is not.
I can kind of understand where you are coming from, but like I say I guess thats where its different over here, I dont know of any Honorary BB being given, and if they are it would be on very rare occasions for legit reasons.

As for Honorary Doctorates, I dont even know if our Uni's hand them out, but I could be wrong?

[47MartialMan]

I guess people may be a little different over here, if someone is caring/giving/honourable enough to receive such an award then they tend to NOT be the sort of people that would go out and be dishonest about the award they got.


But, the realization is that there are those who do.

[Dronak]

Are people missing the point of Sarah's comment? She didn't claim that 100% of people with honorary degrees would be honest and 0% would be dishonest. Of course there will be people who will abuse just about anything they get. Her point was that *most* of them who have done something good enough to warrant the recognition of an honorary degree/BB won't attempt to pass themselves off as something they aren't. Note the "tend" part of her statement. Will some claim they're masters of the art and go start their own school? Yes. Will they all do so? No. Will enough do so that you have to worry about it and the integrity of the art and such? That I couldn't really tell you for sure. But really, I think Sarah's right -- people who are deserving of an honor should generally know better than to misrepresent it.

[Sarah]

Are people missing the point of Sarah's comment? She didn't claim that 100% of people with honorary degrees would be honest and 0% would be dishonest. Of course there will be people who will abuse just about anything they get. Her point was that *most* of them who have done something good enough to warrant the recognition of an honorary degree/BB won't attempt to pass themselves off as something they aren't. Note the "tend" part of her statement. Will some claim they're masters of the art and go start their own school? Yes. Will they all do so? No. Will enough do so that you have to worry about it and the integrity of the art and such? That I couldn't really tell you for sure. But really, I think Sarah's right -- people who are deserving of an honor should generally know better than to misrepresent it.
Cheers, you got my point across much better than I did... :)

[47MartialMan]

Yes, I was just adding that those do. Not that she didn't realize those who do. It was general commentary. A re-emphasization. Also, I had posted other areas towards this.

[MJS]

You know, you are 1 of the "few" who are truly a positive force amongst the sometimes quite a bit of nonsense! :asian:

Thank you Sir. :asian:

[47MartialMan]

So a honorary rank is not so honorable if it is mis-used as a tool for deceit?

[VSanhodo]

I have to admit I have GIVEN honory rank to NON Martial Arts Practitioners. Years ago, I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do a demo at the Govenors mansion. At the end of the demonstration, I was given the opportunity to speak. We gave the govenor a certificate saying very plain and clear HONORARY BLACK BELT. Now if ppl cant see this was done merely as a gesture of good will and that the Govenor is no more a martial artist than I am the President.
Now rank where it is very clearly written and spelled out on the certificate I dont have a big problem with. That I believe is far different than ppl who give out rank and titles to Martial art practitioners.

Thanks

San

[JenniM]

I had no question this man showed what a BLACK BELT embodied. He may not have had the physical skills of one but he had the mental and emotional fortitude that I hope to achieve one day.

Yes, we gave him an Honorary Black Belt 4 days before he passed. His family displayed it prominently at his memorial.
And I hope to one day meet him once more and tell him how honored I was to have known him.


God Bless
Thomas Beckly RIP

:asian:
I totally empathise with this - I was privileged enough to have known a man who was taken in his prime due to a tragic motorcycle accident - this man worked diligently and never missed a lesson, never found Kenpo easy but loved it with a passion - he was a ardent supporter of our organisation, the Kenpo community and was a friend with a wicked sense of humour - as well as being the President of the local Slaves chapter which had its own demands in itself - there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he would have finally made his Black, he just got it a little earlier than anticipated - Honorary Black Belt? You bet it was and given with great respect and honour.

God Bless
Frank Lewis RIP :asian:

[kenposikh]

I too knew Franky Boy and his sheer determination and dogged effort to improve learn and achieve was second to none. The day of his funeral is still fresh in my mind. Yes he was given an honoury Dan grade because there is no doubt in our minds that one day he would have achieved it.

However there is another commercial issue for giving honourary ranks which I personally don't agree with such as to celebraties in doig so and with promotion in the media etc you can certainly increase your public standing, I don't agree with this myself but am sure that it has happened in the not so distant past.

[arnisador]

I see a posthumous belt, like a posthumous degree, as not quite the same as an honorary one.

[evenflow1121]

While there certainly are some positives in honorary rank, such as, already stated, the individual who was perhaps a rank below black belt and dies, and is given the rank in recognition of his training, or someone who all of a sudden is no longer capable of training due to an illness or permanent injury. However, I am pretty sure that the concept of honorary rank is also greatly exploited...give somone an honorary rank if they promote your system no matter how much they might suck. Besides, death or a severe illness, I simply could not see the purpose for it, but to further a school's economic interest. I dont know, here you have a bunch of students whatever training every day at a studio for many years, and all of a sudden some dude walks in and the professor grants him an 'honorary' black belt, in my opinion there are other ways to show an 'outsider' gratitude without having to award an honorary rank. I do however, agree with the concept of awarding an honorary rank to a terminally ill individual, or somone who has passed away, or somone who by some physical hardship will no longer be able to train.

[arnisador]

I have to admit I have GIVEN honory rank to NON Martial Arts Practitioners. Years ago, I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do a demo at the Govenors mansion. At the end of the demonstration, I was given the opportunity to speak. We gave the govenor a certificate saying very plain and clear HONORARY BLACK BELT.
I don't have a problem with this. It seems very natural. I know of many cases like this.

Clearly labeling it as such, and not listing that person as one of your black belts, makes a difference.

[47MartialMan]

While there certainly are some positives in honorary rank, such as, already stated, the individual who was perhaps a rank below black belt and dies, and is given the rank in recognition of his training, or someone who all of a sudden is no longer capable of training due to an illness or permanent injury. However, I am pretty sure that the concept of honorary rank is also greatly exploited...give somone an honorary rank if they promote your system no matter how much they might suck. Besides, death or a severe illness, I simply could not see the purpose for it, but to further a school's economic interest. I dont know, here you have a bunch of students whatever training every day at a studio for many years, and all of a sudden some dude walks in and the professor grants him an 'honorary' black belt, in my opinion there are other ways to show an 'outsider' gratitude without having to award an honorary rank. I do however, agree with the concept of awarding an honorary rank to a terminally ill individual, or somone who has passed away, or somone who by some physical hardship will no longer be able to train.
Yes, like anything, will get exploited. And I had posted there should be another obbject or item of award than the so "coveted black belt".

[dsp921]

Honorary rank is usually given to honorable people and generally the certificate is written so that it is obvious that it is an honorary belt. I have no problem with that. Crossranking however is a different story, this is where, in my opinion, people take advantage and claim lineage that is not accurate. Maybe some of the posts are using the term "honorary" the same as "crossranking"? I think there is a differnence.

[Shogun]

The line has been used a lot on here, but Hatsumi soke (Bujinkan) will "give you the rope to need to hang yourself with". The martial arts are great in the fact that we can physically see how good someone really is.

[arnisador]

There is a difference between honorary rank and cross-rank in principle, but I guess I see them conflated quite often.

[Andrew Green]

wow... this is sure a big debate over a rank that has nothing at all to do with training or ability...

I know!

I hereby award a honorary 5th degree black belt in "arrg-ryu" to everyone viewing this. Now to argue against honorary ranks is hypocritical, seeing as you know have one. Case Closed :D

[47MartialMan]

wow... this is sure a big debate over a rank that has nothing at all to do with training or ability...

I know!

I hereby award a honorary 5th degree black belt in "arrg-ryu" to everyone viewing this. Now to argue against honorary ranks is hypocritical, seeing as you know have one. Case Closed :D
So a honorary rank is as clumsy as a self-proclaim one or title?
So when one gets a hinorary rank, do we call them "Your Honor"?

[Andrew Green]

So a honorary rank is as clumsy as a self-proclaim one or title?
So when one gets a hinorary rank, do we call them "Your Honor"?
No, it is a HONORING rank and has absolutely nothing at all to do with training or skill. This is not the same as a self-proclaimed rank.

But, yes your honor, we can call you that now ;)

[47MartialMan]

A.) No, it is a HONORING rank and has absolutely nothing at all to do with training or skill. This is not the same as a self-proclaimed rank.

B.) But, yes your honor, we can call you that now ;)
A.) But some that get a honorary rank wind of dis-honoring it by excessive declaration of receipt. Thus, adding to a self-proclaim rank. Why not give another awards in another form?

B.) Call who that?

[Andrew Green]

A.) But some that get a honorary rank wind of dis-honoring it by excessive declaration of receipt. Thus, adding to a self-proclaim rank. Why not give another awards in another form?
A few idiots don't invalidate the idea ;)

Beside, change the award and the people that manipulate things like this would just promote it as a more important one...




B.) Call who that? You, didn't you read my post? You got a honorary 5th degree ;)

[47MartialMan]

A.) A few idiots don't invalidate the idea ;)

B.) Beside, change the award and the people that manipulate things like this would just promote it as a more important one...


C.) You, didn't you read my post? You got a honorary 5th degree ;)
A.) They will if others allow it.

B.) How true...

C.) I dont want it. I am not for it nor against it (honorary rank)

If there is going to be honorary rank, there will be honorary title. Both subject to dis-honorary gains.

[James Kovacich]

I'm a big fan of Gene Lebell but this what he had to say after he received 2 "honorary" ranks of 9th degree from Japan recently.

He said something he was very proud because these ranks were legitimate and coldn't be bought.

But they still were "honorary."

[47MartialMan]

I'm a big fan of Gene Lebell but this what he had to say after he received 2 "honorary" ranks of 9th degree from Japan recently.

He said something he was very proud because these ranks were legitimate and coldn't be bought.

But they still were "honorary."
Yeah he had a couple of "cameo" parts in some movies...though I would have loved to see him in action.

[arnisador]

He was a regular stuntperson on "Married...with Children," for example.

[47MartialMan]

What....youre kidding. I did see him...

[fistlaw720]

Honorary Ranks are for a person's character and/or contributions ($). Sort of like a Honorary PhD from a University.

[jfarnsworth]

(sigh)

:rolleyes:

:-partyon:

[47MartialMan]

Honorary Ranks are for a person's character and/or contributions ($). Sort of like a Honorary PhD from a University.So a honoray rank doesn't necessarily reflect experience or skill?

If ranking was designed to do this, isnt this somewhat contradictory?

[dsp921]

So a honoray rank doesn't necessarily reflect experience or skill?
No, I don't think it reflects experience or skill in martial arts, the same way that an honorary degree from a college or university doesn't reflect knowledge in the area of the honorary degree being bestowed upon someone. An honorary rank is meant to 'honor' someone for their contributions. Doesn't Arnold Schwartzenegger have an honorary black belt that was given to him for putting on the big tournament during his fitness weekends in Ohio? Things like that get people honorary rank.
A cross-rank would recognize experience and skill in MA, a different MA than the one the cross-rank is being given in.
Honorary rank is fine, I'm not a fan of cross-ranking.

[47MartialMan]

No, I don't think it reflects experience or skill in martial arts, the same way that an honorary degree from a college or university doesn't reflect knowledge in the area of the honorary degree being bestowed upon someone. An honorary rank is meant to 'honor' someone for their contributions. Doesn't Arnold Schwartzenegger have an honorary black belt that was given to him for putting on the big tournament during his fitness weekends in Ohio? Things like that get people honorary rank.
A cross-rank would recognize experience and skill in MA, a different MA than the one the cross-rank is being given in.
Honorary rank is fine, I'm not a fan of cross-ranking.
By cross-ranking, you mean one guy awards another (each other) high ranks?

And, what response to you have of my second statement/question.
If ranking was designed to do this, (reflect experience or skill) isnt this somewhat contradictory?

[dsp921]

By cross-ranking, you mean one guy awards another (each other) high ranks?

And, what response to you have of my second statement/question.
If ranking was designed to do this, (reflect experience or skill) isnt this somewhat contradictory?By cross-ranking mean being awarded rank in one art because you have rank in another. Like if you have a BB in Kenpo and someone gives you a BB in TKD. Doesn't necessarily have to be high ranks, or ranks being exchanged, but that would fall under cross-ranking, at least the way I see it. This is bad because you now have a BB in a style you have no experience or skill in.

As to the contradiction, cross-ranking is, in my opinion, absolutely contradictory to the intent of rank. However, honorary rank, being that it is given as a recognition of some sort, and does not in any way signify actual rank, isn't a real contradiction to the intent of rank. Honorary, by definition, means conferred in recognition of achievement without the usual prerequisites. I hope I'm making some sense. Basically, cross-rank would be actual rank being awarded, honorary rank is not actual rank, it's "honorary". I wish I could come up with another word in place of honorary to better make my point.

[James Kovacich]

By cross-ranking mean being awarded rank in one art because you have rank in another. Like if you have a BB in Kenpo and someone gives you a BB in TKD. Doesn't necessarily have to be high ranks, or ranks being exchanged, but that would fall under cross-ranking, at least the way I see it. This is bad because you now have a BB in a style you have no experience or skill in.

As to the contradiction, cross-ranking is, in my opinion, absolutely contradictory to the intent of rank. However, honorary rank, being that it is given as a recognition of some sort, and does not in any way signify actual rank, isn't a real contradiction to the intent of rank. Honorary, by definition, means conferred in recognition of achievement without the usual prerequisites. I hope I'm making some sense. Basically, cross-rank would be actual rank being awarded, honorary rank is not actual rank, it's "honorary". I wish I could come up with another word in place of honorary to better make my point.
There is another form of cross ranking which one of my instructors uses. He cross ranks you at your rank but in your art and not his. It's a way of recognizing someone when they join his association but is not a promotion and not a cross rank into his art.

[arnisador]

I'm not sure how that's a cross rank?

[dsp921]

There is another form of cross ranking which one of my instructors uses. He cross ranks you at your rank but in your art and not his. It's a way of recognizing someone when they join his association but is not a promotion and not a cross rank into his art.I don't understand. If you have rank in your art why would he re-rank you and how can he give rank in an art that he might not do? I may be just confused....I've seen associations give certificates that acknowledge your current rank, is that what you mean? I don't see any "cross" in what you describe, it sounds like he is simply acknowledging existing rank
Since intent and tone sometimes get lost when writing, please know that I am not challenging your instructor or what he does, I'm just not sure I understand what you mean.

[The Kai]

How can he rank me in an art he knows nothing about??

[dsp921]

My guess is that he is actually acknowledging an existing rank on behalf of the association. I guess now we have "honorary" rank, "cross" rank and "acknowledged" rank. Wonder how many more will come out of this....

[47MartialMan]

By cross-ranking mean being awarded rank in one art because you have rank in another. Like if you have a BB in Kenpo and someone gives you a BB in TKD. Doesn't necessarily have to be high ranks, or ranks being exchanged, but that would fall under cross-ranking, at least the way I see it. This is bad because you now have a BB in a style you have no experience or skill in.

As to the contradiction, cross-ranking is, in my opinion, absolutely contradictory to the intent of rank. However, honorary rank, being that it is given as a recognition of some sort, and does not in any way signify actual rank, isn't a real contradiction to the intent of rank. Honorary, by definition, means conferred in recognition of achievement without the usual prerequisites. I hope I'm making some sense. Basically, cross-rank would be actual rank being awarded, honorary rank is not actual rank, it's "honorary". I wish I could come up with another word in place of honorary to better make my point.
Makes a lot of sense, I just wanted to clarify..

[James Kovacich]

I don't understand. If you have rank in your art why would he re-rank you and how can he give rank in an art that he might not do? I may be just confused....I've seen associations give certificates that acknowledge your current rank, is that what you mean? I don't see any "cross" in what you describe, it sounds like he is simply acknowledging existing rank
Since intent and tone sometimes get lost when writing, please know that I am not challenging your instructor or what he does, I'm just not sure I understand what you mean.
I see it more like recognition too but they've called it "cross rank" since they started the association in 1989. Maybe a little before cross rank became so broadly used.

[47MartialMan]

Is it a honorary rank moreso than a cross-rank. Could honorary rank also be that of recognition?

[dsp921]

Is it a honorary rank moreso than a cross-rank. Could honorary rank also be that of recognition?
Good question....In recognition of what?
In recognition of existing rank = cross-rank.
In recognition of something else = honorary rank.
By something else I mean some sort of contribution: cash, time, event promotion, just being a big shot of some sort (politician, celebrity...)
Obviously, these are just my opinions and not some sort of concrete rule.

[James Kovacich]

[QUOTE=dsp921]In recognition of existing rank = cross-rank.[QUOTE]
Thats how I've seen it used.

[47MartialMan]

Good question....In recognition of what?
In recognition of existing rank = cross-rank.
In recognition of something else = honorary rank.
By something else I mean some sort of contribution: cash, time, event promotion, just being a big shot of some sort (politician, celebrity...)
Obviously, these are just my opinions and not some sort of concrete rule.So why "give" out a honorary rank? If it seems "political"? Why have a cross rank when the main rank is utmost recognized? If rank, of any such is recognition, should it be hard-earned no matter the source.

Too much emphasis is on any rank. The rank is for recognition and woe is it blown out of proportion. Why cant there be any OTHER Award to distinguish such recognition apart from hard-earned?

The rank and its issue is a snare that has no one to cut it loose. Rank seems to be a controversal issue within the martial arts and thus is the "holy grail" of it. It would seem that the "holy grail" should be the knowledge and skills achieved. Any rank not hard-earned, could be considered as not genuine. Thus, any such, honorary, or other, will later cause controversy on their own.

[dsp921]

So why "give" out a honorary rank? If it seems "political"? Why have a cross rank when the main rank is utmost recognized? If rank, of any such is recognition, should it be hard-earned no matter the source.

Too much emphasis is on any rank. The rank is for recognition and woe is it blown out of proportion. Why cant there be any OTHER Award to distinguish such recognition apart from hard-earned?

The rank and its issue is a snare that has no one to cut it loose. Rank seems to be a controversal issue within the martial arts and thus is the "holy grail" of it. It would seem that the "holy grail" should be the knowledge and skills achieved. Any rank not hard-earned, could be considered as not genuine. Thus, any such, honorary, or other, will later cause controversy on their own.
I agree. Especially about the goal should be to gain knowledge and skill. I can't explain why people give honorary ranks, maybe it's because they really don't have much else to offer as a method of showing graditude.

[47MartialMan]

I agree. Especially about the goal should be to gain knowledge and skill. I can't explain why people give honorary ranks, maybe it's because they really don't have much else to offer as a method of showing graditude.
Yeah, they can give a plaque, crystal chalice, statue, etc., why such a rank?

I re-emphasize-it will only cause controversy. Perhaps the "honoree" will abuse the rank. Perhaps peers will not recognize it.

[dsp921]

Yeah, they can give a plaque, crystal chalice, statue, etc., why such a rank?

I re-emphasize-it will only cause controversy. Perhaps the "honoree" will abuse the rank. Perhaps peers will not recognize it.I didn't want to come off as defending honorary ranks. I really just wanted to point out that cross-ranking is what would most likely cause problems. Those are the people that will try to pass off the rank as legitimate. More so than someone getting an honorary BB. You're right, a plaque or statue is a better way to show appreciation, and a lot less confusing.

[47MartialMan]

A.) I didn't want to come off as defending honorary ranks.

B.) I really just wanted to point out that cross-ranking is what would most likely cause problems. Those are the people that will try to pass off the rank as legitimate.

C.) More so than someone getting an honorary BB. You're right, a plaque or statue is a better way to show appreciation, and a lot less confusing.
A.) You didn't, in my view.

B.) Perhaps. But here are those "honorees" that would state that they had such rank to become recognized.

C.) :asian: "The Almighty Black Belt" :asian: Who wants one, or has need for one without hard-earning?

[dsp921]

A.) You didn't, in my view.

B.) Perhaps. But here are those "honorees" that would state that they had such rank to become recognized.

C.) :asian: "The Almighty Black Belt" :asian: Who wants one, or has need for one without hard-earning?A) Good

B) Absolutely a possibility (but more of a problem with cross-rank)

C) Want one? Lots of people. Deserve one? Only those that earned it, not those that had one given to them.

I guess in the end I'm not a big fan of honorary rank, and definitley against cross-rank. I can tolerate honorary as long as it is clear that it is what it is.