Penn hits police officer

[RMACKD]

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=2803 Pretty crazy. Police officer was sento to the hospital to get checked.

[arnisador]

Sheesh. It's Mike Tyson all over again!

[evenflow1121]

Well, that's a pretty stupid thing to do.

[Jaymeister]

Well that's REALLY gonna help the reputation of MMA :rolleyes:

[MA-Caver]

Well, that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
Well yeah that goes without saying, even if the guy was drunk (and probably was as it was at a party ... what usually happens at parties?...right.)
So, hopefully he'll learn something from it.

[RMACKD]

He was sprayed with mace by the officer and he was probaly drinking so it does not seem to suprising.

[Tgace]

I dont know of any LEO agencies that carry Mace anymore....

[RMACKD]

There are many variations of this story. Most stories agree that he was sprayed with either mace or pepper spray. Some say he was fighting and then he hit the cop who sprayed him and other parts of the story say he was on his way to his car while and got sprayed and nailed the guy. Some say he hit the cop before getting sprayed and others say he got sprayed and swung wildly. Some stories say that the cop was beating on B.J. and pulled off but most say the cop tackled him from behind and was immediatly pulled off(much more likely considering how good b.j. is, probaly wouldn't be getting a beatdown from a cop). The most outrageous story is that B.J. was running around knocking out several cops while singing ice cube's f*** the police.

[Tgace]

Getting sprayed by the police doesn't give justification to strike them.

[rmcpeek]

Not a very smart thing to do. Wonder if he'll get any jail time if convicted.

[Semaj]

now I dont know... but the question remains. If you are in a brawl, and someone sprays you with mace and you duff them to find out they were a police officer. When does "Self defence" end and "assaulting" begin?

[Marginal]

So, you're saying you have a right to be in a brawl, and not be maced or assaulted while in said brawl?

[BoxANT]

i guess being a good fighter doesn't make you a smart citizen.

[Tgace]

now I dont know... but the question remains. If you are in a brawl, and someone sprays you with mace and you duff them to find out they were a police officer. When does "Self defence" end and "assaulting" begin?
Usually the guy yelling "STOP POLICE GET ON THE GROUND!" as he is spraying you is a pretty good clue. The uniform, belt and badge are pretty good indicators too. Typically when the police arrive most people notice them....

[Semaj]

Nice how everyone assumes I mean your in the middle of the fray, swinging and hurting peope...You can be in a brawl and not actually trying to hurt anyone.

How do you know he wasnt trying to help stop the brawl or his buddies from brawling... and the police officers, rather than adressing themselves as one just jumped in to break it up. BJ it holding one of his freinds back, gets grabbed and turns around right into someone putting something in his eyes and takes a swing in self defense.

Did the officer address himself as one? I doubt it. If police officers screamed break it up while holding billy clubs, anyone within hearing range can and ususally does stop what the hell they are doing, at least to see who the hell is talking, and then they all slow down what they are doing

I'm not saying BJ Penn is not at fault, for all I know he instigated the brawl, hurt a few patrons and then continued raging on the police. But I am saying there is that chance maybe he is being unfairly tried until all the real evidence form the case comes in, a la people not involved telling thier stories.

[Tgace]

Penn allegedly hit officer Oscar Pauoa, 42, with a blind-side punch to his left eye and tried to run away, police told the Advertiser.
Sounds like he knew who he hit then tried to run away to me.....

[arnisador]

We could definitely use mroe details, but it sounds like he made some bad decisions any way you slice it.

[Tgace]

Im definitely not saying this guy is "evil" or a "bad guy". Lots of people make bad decisions, its only human. I just dont buy the police stealthily materializing out of nowhere and people getting sprayed having no idea whats going on and "accidentally" punching a cop and then running away. One maybe two events could be excusable as "accidental" but as a whole it sounds like a bunch of intoxicated knuckleheads who didnt want to go "with the program" once the cops arrived.

[arnisador]

Must have been Ninja cops.

[Tgace]

How did you find out about that secret training program!!!! ;)

[Shogun]

Not doubting that Penn hit the officer, but the "hit the officer, then ran away, then got tackled" bit doesnt fly with me. I am good friends with a lot of Hawaiians and hit and run isnt among the favored fight strategies. BJ penn may have swatted the officer, but I dont buy the officer "tackling" him, before the #1 ranked welterweight fighter in the world needed a big bunch of men to help him.

[Tgace]

Did the officer address himself as one? I doubt it. If police officers screamed break it up while holding billy clubs, anyone within hearing range can and ususally does stop what the hell they are doing, at least to see who the hell is talking, and then they all slow down what they are doing.
Really? Must be nice working where you saw that.....

[Semaj]

I'm playing devils advocate, dont patronise me. Fact is, it seems very unbelieveable BJ penn would run up, sucker punch a police officer and then run off. Almost as if the police decided to make it sound better on thier end that what really occured.

I of course, went to the other extreme for BJ trying to make it obvious there are usually 2 sides to any story and they are ALWAYS slanted toward the individual telling it.

[Semaj]

Really? Must be nice working where you saw that.....
Where I tended, we didnt have many brawls or problems, because I was the bartender/bouncer (Not exactly a huge bar by any stretch), meaning I was over that bar at the first hint of trouble, not after there was trouble. When I was with friends at a big club (Bouncer friends, I have em, go figure) we usually bounced anyone causing trouble the second they gave us good enough reason. Stops a lot of stupidity.

Of course our town is a very big drinking town, and most places have a lot of bartenders, and the bars tend to congregate together in strips. Theres strips have a few cops to make sure no real sheninagins occur, or at least to break it up before it gets completely stupid or out of hand. So yeah, when the cops come in and start yelling, people tend to stop what they are doing in the hopes they can talk thier way out of spending the night in a jail cell. Only the really stupid ones, or ones in a headlock who cant hear tend to keep going much past a few warnings... And no one, near thier right mind... Drunk or not... Would EVER walk up to a police offer, sucker punch him, and run off.

[Tgace]

Heres an article with a little more detail (not much).

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/May/09/ln/ln05p.html

[Tgace]

I'm playing devils advocate, dont patronise me.
Well, In my years on the street Ive had people look me right in the face and continue their illegal activity...had them resist me when they absolutely knew I was an LEO and even initiate fights against the police (imagine that), so the concept of somebody thinking that they had a chance to take a poke at a cop in the confusion of a fight and get away with it isnt so "out there"......

[Semaj]

Well, In my years on the street Ive had people look me right in the face and continue their illegal activity...had them resist me when they absolutely knew I was an LEO and even initiate fights against the police (imagine that), so the concept of somebody thinking that they had a chance to take a poke at a cop in the confusion of a fight and get away with it isnt so "out there"......
_so_ much better an answer... I liked the link, was fairly informative... I thought he got maced, I guess he got pepper sprayed.

Yes, you always get your fair share of idiots who realise they are hosed and just dont care. And you get your guys who will try something if they think they can get away with it. The question is, is BJ Penn that kind of guy. What I am saying is, sometimes Police officers can make mistakes, and it has been known for one to cover for another.

I'm saying Dont Condemn BJ as an obvious idiot/troublemaker until we hear more about what happened and if BJ is prone to this sort of behavior.

As for breaking up brawls peacefully... It HAS been done, so dont count it as heresay.

[Tgace]

The question is, is BJ Penn that kind of guy. What I am saying is, sometimes Police officers can make mistakes, and it has been known for one to cover for another.Well..no offense, but are we to assume Penn is a good guy and the cops are railroading him now? If we want to say "lets just wait until the case goes to court"...fine. Otherwise....sounds like excuse making. The police had probable cause to make an arrest and until I hear otherwise Im going to believe they had good reason to, rather than assuming right off the bat that the cops are "covering for each other". Bottom line is if you are standing in the middle of a mob doing nothing and get OC'd, it gives you NO legal right to punch a cop anyway. You can be charged with resisting arrest even if its later proven you were innocent of the crime you were being arrested for.

The one thing I dont get is the "he was charged with "suspicion" of assaulting a police officer" thing. Im not familiar with Hawaiian law, but here In NY I need "probable cause" to make an arrest..there is no law with the word "suspicion" in it. Either the cops have PC to believe Penn did it or they didnt. Is this "suspicion" thing a media interpretation or a legal definition.:idunno:

[Shogun]

still though...its very shady.

[Tgace]

Drunks fighting, cops show up, people get arrested, nothing too "shady" there...its not an episode of "The Shield" were talking about. This kind of stuff happens everyday. Just because some peoples "heros" are involved, accusations of police impropriety start getting thrown around....:shrug:

If this was some "nobody" involved Id bet everybody would be saying "he deserves what he gets".

[James Kovacich]

One thing is for sure. Penn hit a cop. Unless he was outright attacked or beaten by the cop, which he most likely wasn't, he's in some kind of trouble.

[triwahine]

I'm not saying BJ Penn is innocent, or guilty for that matter. I have heard stories about the younger brother blind siding people with punches. BJ Penn has been the one to break those up before, or other members of the MMA program that BJ runs. It's really interesting to see this whole thing unfold. It really does change one's perspective of people.

[Semaj]

Right, and who to say the little brother didnt do it again, and they thought it was penn?

I'm not a big fan of the word "probably cause" because it's not a clearly drawn line anywhere on what is and what isnt.

[Tgace]

Probable cause is not just a "word" its an important legal concept...

probable cause:

1. A reasonable ground in fact and circumstance for a belief in the existence of certain circumstances (as that an offense has been or is being committed, that a person is guilty of an offense, that a particular search will uncover contraband, that an item to be seized is in a particular place, or that a specific fact or cause of action exists) (when supported by probable cause, warrantless search of vehicle may extend to every part of vehicle where objects of search might be concealed - State v. Nixon, 593 N.E.2d 1210 (1992)) called also reasonable cause sufficient cause compare reasonable suspicion
- The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution stipulates that “no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause.” Probable cause is also required for a warrantless arrest. Probable cause is an objective standard rather than a function of subjective opinion or suspicion not grounded in fact or circumstance. However, the facts or circumstances need not be of the nature of certainty necessary to establish proof in court.

2. Justification for an administrative search based on a showing that it is to be conducted in accordance with standardized nonarbitrary regulatory procedures designed to further public interest in regulatory enforcement that outweighs the intrusiveness of the search

"Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion), but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criminal_conviction&action=edit). Even hearsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay) can supply probable cause if it is from a reliable source or is backed up by other evidence.

[Shogun]

nothing too "shady" there
Oh, its still assault 3, but I dont think you are familiar with Mr. Penn.
So, lets break it down. The #1 Ranked fighter in the world who has KO'ed top kickboxers and japanese shootfighting superstars with a punch and a half, smacked a cop on the side of his face. THEN, "ran for his life". The cop, who is 42 years old, chased the top conditioned fighter down (yeah, and i've seen bj run is his videos,....very quick) and "tackled" the man who couldnt be taken down by Matt Hughes,..considered the best takedown artist in all MMA, and two time division 1 all american. ?

he probably did hit the cop. Not saying it Didnt happen that way,.....but come on. the chances are so very very slim. and as was mentioned, BJ's bro looks almost exactly like em.

[Tgace]

Whoever it was. He wasnt "running for his life"..he was running to avoid getting arrested. The street isnt like the ring. There is no hard and fast rules for how people act or fight. As to tackling, if somebodys running it isnt to hard to bring them down from behind. Especially after they have been OC'd. And maybe Mr. Penn realized that he would just make things worse by fighting when it happened.

BTW: I have met some LEO's that were 42+ years old that were the size of NFL linebackers with 15+ years of taking people down. One of my co-workers is a former pro boxer (fought Frazier once or twice). If it was Penn and he did decide to fight reather than get arrested yeah maybe it wouldnt have been easy...do you think thats the kind of person he is. Some people make bad decisions but draw the line at making it worse once they are caught....

Murphys Law of Combat:
4. You are not Superman; Marines and fighter pilots, Martial Artists,professional athletes, take note.

[Tgace]

Were there any other arrests out of this fracas?

[Shogun]

Once again, I am not ruling out it happened this way. I just say that if you could see both sides of the fence like I do, you might have some doubt. I have spent a lot of my life around and in the LEO field. I am a Sheriff explorer, and have spend time around Marines, former naval officers, correction officers, bouncers, black belts, and police officers at my job. I also happen to know a lot about BJ and what he is and isnt capable of. I have trained with people he has beat in the ring. not having been there, neither one of us can really "call" anything, but the pieces dont seem to fit.

[Tgace]

What "both sides"? You are saying you dont doubt that this is an assault 3, but you dont believe this cop tackled him? What is the issue here? An assault on an LEO is an assault. Is this a "whos tougher" thing? Somebody apparently got him in cuffs. Penns attorney is saying his client "pushed" the officer, didnt punch him. So apparently Penn isnt trying to deny laying hands on the Cop.

Dont take offense, but as to the "I know", "Ive met", "I hang around with" stuff. I may know a SEAL, but it doesnt give me any more knowledge of naval special warfare than another guy. I appreciate anybodys opinion, but association doesnt equate to "knowledge". Ive arrested many a guy who could have beaten the **** out of me. Many people may take a poke at a Cop and try to get away, but have the brains enough to knock it off when they get caught. You are confusing ability with motivation here IMO. Just because Penn is a great fighter...so what, did you think he would break 3 cops arms, knockout 3 more and maybe kill 1 or 2 before he got "taken down"? Is that the type of guy Penn is? Maybe the story is Penn took a shot. Resisted a bit and finally got OC'd and arrested by 4-5 cops. In the end whats the difference?

In the end I would just say that it looks like Penn had a lapse of judgement and got in some trouble. I doubt he's going to see any time or "signifigant" punishment out of it. In my crystal judicial ball (depending on Penns history), I see a plea, maybe some probation(maybe), perhaps an adjournment in contemplation of dismissial, and counciling or reparations.

[Shogun]

I just see things differently, thats all.




Dont take offense, but as to the "I know", "Ive met", "I hang around with" stuff. I may know a SEAL, but it doesnt give me any more knowledge of naval special warfare than another guy. I appreciate anybodys opinion, but association doesnt equate to "knowledge".

so you are saying the fact that i have been working for the sheriff's office for 2 years, and have also helped bring down some violent criminals doesnt equate to knowledge?

Besides, the first story was he got tackled then it was broken up by a large group of guys. BJ probably did smart up, but it made it sound like he pecked a cop on the cheek, ran, and got caught. now, if he was maybe pulling the cop off one of his friends, the officer knowing penn and his famous Hilo reputation, oc'ed em, penn got pissed and swun on the officer and knowing his mistake, ran off. then several officers took him down and arrested him. makes more sense.

[sgtmac_46]

Here's what likely happened. Penn DOES have a Hilo reputation for being a brawler early in his life. That's why his father was more than happy to send him to California. Penn was at the party, a huge brawl broke out. The Officer showed up, started pepper spraying Penn's friends. Penn got offended, punched the officer. Realized that he just committed felony, figured he didn't want to be around when backup showed up, and took off running. Penn got tackled, his buddies pulled the officer off of him before anything further happened, and back up arrived. They no doubt probably offered to taser Penn, and he submitted to arrest. Having been to a few hundred bar fights, and dealt with countless guys like Penn, I am almost certain this is likely what happened. Penn's version will vary, no doubt, but I would vary my story too if I were facing felony assault on law enforcement charges. He didn't run because he was afraid of the officer, he ran because he was afraid of MORE officers. UFC or no, eventually enough officers arrive to take you in to custody. Penn's not stupid, he knows that. This whole thing isn't rocketscience, Penn screwed up. He'll likely pay a HUGE fine, get a little jail time and spend a little probation time. Lets hope Penn's Probation officer lets him travel to fight.

[Tgace]

Here's what likely happened. Penn DOES have a Hilo reputation for being a brawler early in his life. That's why his father was more than happy to send him to California. Penn was at the party, a huge brawl broke out. The Officer showed up, started pepper spraying Penn's friends. Penn got offended, punched the officer. Realized that he just committed felony, figured he didn't want to be around when backup showed up, and took off running. Penn got tackled, his buddies pulled the officer off of him before anything further happened, and back up arrived. They no doubt probably offered to taser Penn, and he submitted to arrest. Having been to a few hundred bar fights, and dealt with countless guys like Penn, I am almost certain this is likely what happened. Penn's version will vary, no doubt, but I would vary my story too if I were facing felony assault on law enforcement charges. He didn't run because he was afraid of the officer, he ran because he was afraid of MORE officers. UFC or no, eventually enough officers arrive to take you in to custody. Penn's not stupid, he knows that.
Exactly...

[Tgace]

I am a Sheriff explorer...http://www.ci.lynnwood.wa.us/police/LPDContent/News/P-20030703.asp
We run an explorer program here too. If you're "taking down violent criminals" as an explorer I think your program director needs a talking to....

[shesulsa]

so you are saying the fact that i have been working for the sheriff's office for 2 years, and have also helped bring down some violent criminals doesnt equate to knowledge?
You were an Explorer for 2 years? or worked there for two years?

[RMACKD]

Penn has gone to court and has said he is not guilty. His lawyer went on to say that if Penn had hit the officer the officer would still be in there (the guy ended up in the hospital for 24 hours).

[Shogun]

i have been working for the sheriff's office for 2 years,
and have also helped bring down some violent criminal s
Those were supposed to be in separate areas my bad. I didnt do it as an explorer, i did it for security company at a local mall. sorry for the confusion. hey btw, I know the people in the article. thats not the post I was in, but I know them.



Here's what likely happened. Penn DOES have a Hilo reputation for being a brawler early in his life. That's why his father was more than happy to send him to California. Penn was at the party, a huge brawl broke out. The Officer showed up, started pepper spraying Penn's friends. Penn got offended, punched the officer. Realized that he just committed felony, figured he didn't want to be around when backup showed up, and took off running. Penn got tackled, his buddies pulled the officer off of him before anything further happened, and back up arrived. They no doubt probably offered to taser Penn, and he submitted to arrest. Having been to a few hundred bar fights, and dealt with countless guys like Penn, I am almost certain this is likely what happened. Penn's version will vary, no doubt, but I would vary my story too if I were facing felony assault on law enforcement charges. He didn't run because he was afraid of the officer, he ran because he was afraid of MORE officers. UFC or no, eventually enough officers arrive to take you in to custody. Penn's not stupid, he knows that. This whole thing isn't rocketscience, Penn screwed up. He'll likely pay a HUGE fine, get a little jail time and spend a little probation time. Lets hope Penn's Probation officer lets him travel to fight.
sounds very likely. I never did in no way try and deny what apparently happened, it just seemed very suspicious...BUT if the guy was in the hospital for 24 hours, Penn surely hit em. I was under the impression that he tagged the officer with no affect. No doubt penn took off to evade arrest, epsically if he clocked the officer a good one. he will probably get some jail time for sure.

Oh, BTW due to age and time, I am formally resigning from explorers in a week. I will be 21 in a year, and then I can go to whatever.

[Tgace]

Ok (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22463&highlight=mall+ninja)

[Rick Wade]

Penn's case does nothing but help Linda Lingle (Hawaii Governor) and the State legislature to get MMA fight banned in Hawaii. There is a bill that is pending right now in the state legislature to impose even more rule into these contests.

V/R

Rick English

[Shogun]

Those mall ninja guys are so funny.:)

But I am not one. I work alongside Valor Security here in Everett, WA. I work for mal management and dispatch, so occasionally help out. The mall is located next to a on-and-off drug and gang area (a huge apartment complex) we dub "the jungle", so we occasionally get guys in here shoplifting who are not nice people. about once a week someone fights, and has to be detained. Its kinda funny, everyone that works security here either has a police, military, corrections, or explorer background.



Penn's case does nothing but help Linda Lingle (Hawaii Governor) and the State legislature to get MMA fight banned in Hawaii. There is a bill that is pending right now in the state legislature to impose even more rule into these contests.

No, it doesnt help. thank god it didnt happen in california. they just got back the "right to fight", thanks to awnowld.

[RSJ]

The Clash's song 'I fought the law' comes to mind here. As the chorus goes " I fought the law//and the law won".

[Shogun]

My platoon sang that at academy.

[47MartialMan]

Drunks fighting, cops show up, people get arrested, nothing too "shady" there...its not an episode of "The Shield" were talking about. This kind of stuff happens everyday. Just because some peoples "heros" are involved, accusations of police impropriety start getting thrown around....:shrug:

If this was some "nobody" involved Id bet everybody would be saying "he deserves what he gets".
I have to agree.

I have been stopped, detained, and questioned by many LEO resulting from anything like parking tickets, speeding tickets, brawls, domestic violence (not my marital relation), etc., the one thing is for sure, LEOs have a tough job and people have a tendancy to esculate their anxiety, causing LEOs to esculate theirs. (Raised in New Orleans and events such as Mardi Gras will test LEO anxiety.)

Basically, I believe, no LEO will spray nor warrant a punch in the face. Many will identify themselves as one just to control a situation.

And I say-he deserves what he gets.

[SammyB57]

Think about this.... one of his buddies, or even his brother is caught up in the middle of a brawl and he goes in to get him out. Someone pushes him, he turns aruond, smacks the guy, and finds out he's an officer.

We weren't there. We don't know. It's not really our place to assume what went down.

[47MartialMan]

Think about this.... one of his buddies, or even his brother is caught up in the middle of a brawl and he goes in to get him out. Someone pushes him, he turns aruond, smacks the guy, and finds out he's an officer.

We weren't there. We don't know. It's not really our place to assume what went down.
your'e right. But given a persons nature and if they were in trouble before...welll

[arnisador]

We weren't there. We don't know. It's not really our place to assume what went down.
Well, that's why we read the news. Hopefully we'll get the true story there.

[Shogun]

Think about this.... one of his buddies, or even his brother is caught up in the middle of a brawl and he goes in to get him out. Someone pushes him, he turns aruond, smacks the guy, and finds out he's an officer.
seems more likely.