1 Woman = 10 Men

[Zoran]

Here is a little piece of news that I feel relates to this category. The news was on http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55434,00.html




Steven Johnson, 34, was charged with attempted murder after what Police Commissioner Ray Kelly described as a "very bizarre crime by this deranged individual."

Johnson was carrying three loaded guns, 153 rounds of ammunition and a samurai sword when he approached four white people walking in the East Village and told them: "I have a problem with you," Kelly said.

Johnson shot one of the men in the upper body, followed him as he ran to the door of the bar and shot him again, police say. Johnson then entered the bar and ordered up to 40 patrons to the kitchen, police said.

A 54-year-old Asian man who owns a store next to the bar heard the shots and peeked in, and Johnson shot him in the wrist, police said.

Johnson, who was also carrying a police baton, a bottle of kerosene, a fireplace lighter and more than 100 plastic handcuffs, then allegedly forced a woman to start putting flex cuffs on the hostages while he sprayed the crowd with kerosene and fired occasional shots at police cars outside.

Witnesses told police that Johnson was "ranting about white people and vowed revenge for thousands of years of suffering." Johnson said that he was having "fun" and that "a real man chooses when he dies," Kelly said.

When Johnson pulled out the lighter, two Manhattan women jumped him, and he shot one in the leg, police said. Officers heard the shots and stormed the bar, grazing Johnson in the head and taking him into custody.

"Those two women did the right thing, a very important thing ... they were very brave," Kelly said.

Johnson was charged with attempted murder and criminal possession of a weapon. He had not retained a lawyer; he was in police custody Sunday evening and was unavailable for comment. There was no telephone listing for him at the address provided by police.

One victim was hospitalized in serious condition, while the other two were in stable condition. The suspect was in stable condition, police said.

Johnson lives in Brooklyn with his 10-year-old son and has been despondent since his wife died in March, neighbors told investigators.

Police who searched his home said they found a note taped to a wall that said, "Tell the boys in blue I won't be easy."



Good thing there were women there to protect the men.

[Eraser]

See.... this just goes to show that Girls Rule and Guys Drool..
hehehehehehe;)

[Goldendragon7]

YOU GO GIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:asian:

[hardheadjarhead]

Bravo for them.

I love reading stories like this...particularly when women are the heroes.

We ALL need to respond like that, however.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Ceicei]

It's possible the suspect wasn't expecting women to fight back. There is a stereotype that women are generally compliant; in other words, will do as told (ie. that woman handcuffing the rest of the hostages upon his order). The men were probably under closer scutiny. Perhaps it is because of this that enabled these two women to take advantage of the opportunity to jump him.

Nevertheless, I'm glad this ended up the way it did because the situation could have fared much worse if the inaction to stop him took longer.
- Ceicei

[Kroy]

I love women:ladysman:

[hardheadjarhead]

Ceicei,


Good observations.

We had an exercise here at my school for a local SWAT school, run by our police department. One of our very attractive female black belts played the role of a victim/hostage/perpetrator...in other words, nobody on the team really knew WHAT she was when they entered the building during the exercise. They knew that "shots had been fired", but had very little intel other than that.

She knelt on the ground and acted hysterical at first, and they surrounded her, some of them yelling "Its okay, its okay!" while others screamed for her to get on the ground. She then drew a training knife and "cut" four of them badly. She'd done a little Sayoc, so she targeted the perineum, testicles, and femoral arteries.

They wouldn't "shoot" her, which would have been justified given the carnage she was wreaking. If I recall correctly (and I was another perp at this time getting my butt kicked by another four cops...so I'm getting it second hand), they wrestled the weapon away. This is why I mentioned she was "very attractive". They had it in their minds that a nasty female perp would look "rough"...and even then they'd been conditioned not to hurt a woman. They had a lot of psychological blocks going against them.

Good lesson for them.

They never seem to hesitate to jump all over me during these exercises, though.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead


They wouldn't "shoot" her, which would have been justified given the carnage she was wreaking. If I recall correctly (and I was another perp at this time getting my butt kicked by another four cops...so I'm getting it second hand), they wrestled the weapon away. This is why I mentioned she was "very attractive". They had it in their minds that a nasty female perp would look "rough"...and even then they'd been conditioned not to hurt a woman. They had a lot of psychological blocks going against them.



How much of an issue are these psychological blocks for men when they must deal with females?

There have been several threads here on MT discussing men who have problems sparring, grappling, and what have you, with female partners/opponents.

Barring bad experiences (such as a rape), most women don't seem to have as many issues dealing with men. [It may be my perspective only...warped as it may be.]

For us females, that [men having issues] may come to an advantage, but as you have mentioned in your story, that could be a disadvantage for the men.

How do instructors deal with these gender issues?

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

Dealing with gender issues...that's a toughie.

Let's start making a list of all the issues first. I'd first want the primary ones. This entails some risk, as people will feel they're stereotyping a gender.

Steve


BTW...Ceicei...this woman with the knife is the one I mentioned in the other thread. It occured to me that she didn't look as the groping incident as a sexual assault (it was), but rather as the guy just being an a*****e.

I'm going to bring that up with her.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Dealing with gender issues...that's a toughie.

Let's start making a list of all the issues first. I'd first want the primary ones. This entails some risk, as people will feel they're stereotyping a gender.



Risk, perhaps, but the best way to find solutions is to look at the problems directly. The problems apparently are stereotypes. We can look at how and why these sterotypes exist and what can be done with them.

In every self defense situation, surprises may come because things happen the way we didn't expect--because its counter to what we thought.

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

Okay, then. I take a chance. I'll list some of the challenges I've faced at risk of sounding as though I am stereotyping women.

Women tend to be smaller and weaker, on average, than the typical male. Not all techniques work for people of their size. On the other hand, some techniques might work better. I've argued elsewhere that techniques that work for a robust man might not work for a diminutive woman, or a woman with handicaps.

Women, I've noted, often have an aversion to grappling. I suspect that this is socially indoctrinated when they're girls. Boys wrestle from an early age with Dad, big brother and the jerk kid down the block who is trying to drive his face into the mud. Some girls will do this, too, of course...but it isnt' typically encountered.

On the other hand, some women I've taught grappling to do very well with it when their first classes are made up entirely of other women. But if they jump into an integrated class too quickly, it can be counter-productive.

(Note throughout this post, please, my avoidance of absolutes there are, and always be, exceptions to everything I list here)

Many women have an initial aversion to hitting. Novice men may have it, and I suspect many do, but women are more honest and forthcoming in expressing it. Men are too hung up on their image as a man to admit it.

I've noted that often women who are rape victims have NO real reluctance to hit...in fact just the opposite. These women were training as a part of their recovery process however, and had done quite a bit of work prior to coming to my class. When they hit, they hit hard and with repressed rage.

Women are compassionate. Whether this is nature, or nurture, I don't know. I've found that when teaching the more indelicate techniques of self defense they are quick to shudder. I had one woman say of an eye gouge, "I couldn't do that if someone were attacking me. If they were attacking my children, yes, but not if they were attacking me." This woman, interestingly, was a rape victim.

When I told her that they WERE attacking her children by proxy, as the whole family suffers the consequences of such an attack, I saw a little lightbulb go off in her head. She realized that she could be killed in the next attack, and therefore not there for her children. At the very list the emotional devastation would leave her less available to her children (and I think she encountered this). Her attitude changed.

Other hurdles:

In the 70's I ran into a feminist that argued that women should be able to do ANYTHING that a man could do in regards to martial arts techniques. The issue at the moment was why a woman who had tested for black belt in Tae Kwon Do (not the feminist in question) had to break only one cinder block with a hammerfist, while the men had to break two. The woman doing the breaking weighed 110 pounds, whereas the men were typically no less than 155. The black belt applicant was a superb technician, but nothing short of a steroid regimen was going to appreciatively increase her strength. I tried to explain this to feminist, but she would have none of it.

I suspect I take a risk here in listing the woman as a "feminist", as this might alienate some who wear that title proudly. I am not using it in the context Rush Limbaugh would, please note. I am not at all against feminism, but need to point out that her particular position on the feminist spectrum was causing her to think unrealistically. When it comes to tasks requiring strength, women are typically weaker. She couldn't accept this simple, proven fact.

And given this lends a nice circularity to the post, I take my leave for now.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Ceicei]

Ok, I've asked for your list of gender stereotypes so we could look at these directly and find what/how these can be addressed within the martial arts. I asked how instructors handle gender issues that arise between students, and even between instructors/students and how to reduce/eliminate those issues that may hinder the learning process.

Although I am not an instructor, I will give some opinions. I know that I will, someday, be a martial arts instructor.


Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Women tend to be smaller and weaker, on average, than the typical male. Not all techniques work for people of their size. On the other hand, some techniques might work better. I've argued elsewhere that techniques that work for a robust man might not work for a diminutive woman, or a woman with handicaps.


No surprise there, its a given fact that for many of us, we are generally smaller and weigh less than the men. Women are often targeted as prey because we are considered weaker.

Obviously, we can't change body size and giving out steroids wouldn't help any, despite the outdated sports view that the drug would give temporary help with strength. That possibility of size change/drugs would be totally ruled out as a solution.

Now, martial arts for females and small males may help even out the weaker/stronger equation a bit when dealing with attackers that hopefully do not know martial arts. Unfortunately, many techniques are taught as one approach/procedure. It takes a creative and intuitive instructor to alter the technique in such a way that makes it more effective for women to use. Martial arts is to fit the individual, not the individual to the arts. I've heard it said that if you change the technique, it isn't part of the style anymore (groan). Martial arts should be evolving and best used by the martial artist.

I sometimes wonder why they don't have "two ways to do this" as a standard, but I suppose that is up to the instructor/student. Many times the student may not know that a certain way may not really work for them unless they tried it out--and that may be too late.

Question is, when does experimenting start? Some argue that experimenting should not be done too early in the studies until more of the basics are instilled into the minds. Shouldn't the ability to adjust a move or two be allowed early on, if only to realize that we can make allowances for quick changes instead of thinking in the middle of a real-life attack "Oh my gosh, this isn't working! What do I do now?" I believe that the mindset of being able to adapt should be taught from the onset of training.


Women, I've noted, often have an aversion to grappling. I suspect that this is socially indoctrinated when they're girls. Boys wrestle from an early age with Dad, big brother and the jerk kid down the block who is trying to drive his face into the mud. Some girls will do this, too, of course...but it isnt' typically encountered.

On the other hand, some women I've taught grappling to do very well with it when their first classes are made up entirely of other women. But if they jump into an integrated class too quickly, it can be counter-productive.

We probably can't ask that little girls be allowed to roll in the mud wrestling (although I have no problem with that activity for my young daughters) as society frowns on this. However, society has gone a long way in making allowance for women to break out of the "traditional mold". Instructors can do much in encouraging their young female/male students to consider/try different goals that aren't "traditional" activities.

You've mentioned that female grapplers often do well initially to start with other women. Is this an issue also with male grapplers to do well initially with other men?

There has been a lot of debate with pros/cons of having women only classes. The question is, if initially it is successful only to increase comfort level with contact, how long should you allow women only classes to continue before transitioning to mixed classes? Being able to work out with others of varying sizes and strengths would be paramount in learning self defense.

If its too long, they may become "too comfortable". If its too soon, you mentioned it would be "counter-productive". May I ask how this would be counter-productive? I believe there are probably more integrated classes out there than women only classes. Have there been any repercussions from holding these types of classes?

Doesn't this give men a "mistaken" idea that women are "fragile" and should start out women only at first? This, in itself, is another stereotype. Women can be pretty resilient.


Many women have an initial aversion to hitting. Novice men may have it, and I suspect many do, but women are more honest and forthcoming in expressing it. Men are too hung up on their image as a man to admit it.

I've noted that often women who are rape victims have NO real reluctance to hit...in fact just the opposite. These women were training as a part of their recovery process however, and had done quite a bit of work prior to coming to my class. When they hit, they hit hard and with repressed rage.


Some say that the only way to overcome this aversion to hitting is to start out with controlled, slow sparring at first. Perhaps not necessarily sparring, but to hit on bags/pads with increasing power as time goes on. The mindset to hitting is necessary in order to learn how to perform counter-strikes.

Another thread had discussed "overwhelming" the student to the point that they are aroused by anger or embarrassment enough to fight back in a sparring situation. Would doing this approach be counterproductive? It's hard to say where we draw the line in making them learn to hit back or to withdraw to the point of leaving the school.

As for traumatic experiences, that in itself is enough for many to realize the importance of defense. Sometimes, though, anger can be misplaced.

Martial arts is also a good way of learning how to control the anger and work that through to a beneficial end by learning to understand self and our reactions. That, at least, is what I learned for myself after a difficult experience.

Of course, we cannot "create" fear/anger inducing experiences for students just for the sake of them being able to hit harder. We can only hope that they are able to learn from the experiences of others. Granted, martial arts schools do not usually have "confession sessions" nor would this be advised. I think that, if it is at all possible, experiences could be judiciously shared whenever needed (perhaps one on one if personal) or in a general way to offer a perspective in self defense and to cause thought regarding what could happen and what we can do about it.


Women are compassionate. Whether this is nature, or nurture, I don't know. I've found that when teaching the more indelicate techniques of self defense they are quick to shudder. I had one woman say of an eye gouge, "I couldn't do that if someone were attacking me. If they were attacking my children, yes, but not if they were attacking me." This woman, interestingly, was a rape victim.

When I told her that they WERE attacking her children by proxy, as the whole family suffers the consequences of such an attack, I saw a little lightbulb go off in her head. She realized that she could be killed in the next attack, and therefore not there for her children. At the very list the emotional devastation would leave her less available to her children (and I think she encountered this). Her attitude changed.


Experiences, whether of self or others, can help change the perspectives of one's willingness to do some things or ability to take action.

Compassion has a place. Sometimes compassion must go out the window in certain circumstances when a counter-attack is necessary. The problem may be in how some define compassion. Some equate compassion with being feminine. With that kind of definition, some women feel that it is impossible to be both tough and feminine at the same time. However, compassion is not the same as being feminine. I know of several compassionate men who aren't considered feminine. Some of the best martial artists I know are very compassionate. That character doesn't need to stop one from being able to fight in self defense. IMHO, I think the ability to be compassionate allows one to place a value on people and relationships and be able to defend what is important.

There have been a few well-written articles I've located on the internet by female martial artists addressing this very issue: the concept of being feminine and tough at the same time.



Other hurdles:

In the 70's I ran into a feminist that argued that women should be able to do ANYTHING that a man could do in regards to martial arts techniques. The issue at the moment was why a woman who had tested for black belt in Tae Kwon Do (not the feminist in question) had to break only one cinder block with a hammerfist, while the men had to break two. The woman doing the breaking weighed 110 pounds, whereas the men were typically no less than 155. The black belt applicant was a superb technician, but nothing short of a steroid regimen was going to appreciatively increase her strength. I tried to explain this to feminist, but she would have none of it.

I suspect I take a risk here in listing the woman as a "feminist", as this might alienate some who wear that title proudly. I am not using it in the context Rush Limbaugh would, please note. I am not at all against feminism, but need to point out that her particular position on the feminist spectrum was causing her to think unrealistically. When it comes to tasks requiring strength, women are typically weaker. She couldn't accept this simple, proven fact.

Pound for pound, strength does play a part. It's like saying a four legged animal such as a field mouse, should be able to pull the same cart as a four legged animal, a clydesdale horse. It doesn't work that way.

If we consider strength in terms of percentage compared to body weight, then I would say it is do-able. I have no argument with one block vs. two blocks when the people demonstrating have different strengths. We don't need to compare apples and oranges and make them fit the same criteria.

The solution is to emphasize that martial arts isn't all about strength. it's about awareness, intelligence, and the ability to make do with what we have. I would hope students would not entrap themselves in the idea of "being better than" or "matching the performance of" another.

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

Well said, Ceicei, on all points.



It takes a creative and intuitive instructor to alter the technique in such a way that makes it more effective for women to use.

That could go for any student, any gender. From our exchanges we are clearly of common mind on that point.


Question is, when does experimenting start?

On the part of the instructor...NOW. Its his duty to his students. I could also argue that its his duty to his art.


However, society has gone a long way in making allowance for women to break out of the "traditional mold".

Bravo for this. I see some parents stifling this due to their traditional mindsets. They're losing the battle against the progressives, and bravo for THAT.


You've mentioned that female grapplers often do well initially to start with other women. Is this an issue also with male grapplers to do well initially with other men?

Some men have a problem grappling with men. It makes them uncomfortable. Whether they perceive it to be somehow homo-erotic in some sort of Freudian sense or not, I don't know. As for whether they do better with other males versus women...good question. Sometimes "Alpha Male" syndrome can be a very counterproductive thing.


how long should you allow women only classes to continue before transitioning to mixed classes? Being able to work out with others of varying sizes and strengths would be paramount in learning self defense.

Depends on the woman, her personality, and any issues she might have with men born of a negative history with them. I agree, though, if they're going to get good at self defense, they have to experience the brute power of a man and get past that natural intimidation such an experience can bring.

Our classes in grappling are integrated, but I taught several private classes to a group of women...and this is how I arrived at my perspective. They were 35 and up housewives, not the younger women who go to our BJJ and Combat Submission Wrestling classes.

In our self defense program, the women train the ground with each other, progress to me if they feel they're ready, and then I bring in some bigger "bad guys" to pressure them (I'm just under five eight, and weigh 180...the others are much taller and heavier*). Its a steady progression, designed to get women who have never done such a thing to a point of confidence.

*I do occasionally bring in a small guy (130 pounds) to show them that a small man can be surprisingly strong.


Doesn't this give men a "mistaken" idea that women are "fragile" and should start out women only at first? This, in itself, is another stereotype. Women can be pretty resilient.

Well, as indicated above, I don't believe they should always start out with only women. And it IS a stereotype that women are fragile. It is also one I don't hold. Also one I don't tolerate on the mat. Sometimes the women are the ones propogating the stereotype. I hate that...so do the majority of the women in my school.


Some of the best martial artists I know are very compassionate. That character doesn't need to stop one from being able to fight in self defense.

Perhaps compassion was a poor word choice.

One of the greatest hurdles that I seem to face is getting women to overcome the social stereotype driven into them that they should be "nice", "polite"...in situations acquiring assertiveness some of them are afraid they'll be misconstrued as "bit**es". They need to learn that they can be compassionate, nice, polite, nurturing...and still defend themselves with vigor and if need be, a measure of moral ruthlessness (can one combine those two words? I did it as an experiment...I'll think on that).

Interesingly, I've run into many, many males who face this same issue. They've grown up to be "sensitive 80's males" and feel they've lost something. It gave rise to the "Iron John" seminars of the last decade. They're trying to get in touch with their "inner warrior" by going out to the woods, bonding, hugging trees, and beating drums.

(A guy tried to get me to go to one of those. I told him I didn't need to get in touch with my inner warrior...I KNEW where he was. The question is finding a logging chain thick enough to restrain him. I can't believe this guy asked me to go to one of these.)

Great post, Ceicei. Very well thought out.

Regards,

Steve