Going to Ground

[fanged_seamus]

Here's a question for everyone....

I keep seeing people give variations on this quote: "90% (75%, 80%, 99%, etc.) of all fights end up on the ground." This quote usually initiates a discussion on grappling / contact manipulation.

However, I've always been suspicious of this quote. I've always assumed that it has been misquoted from the source. It's like there needs to be a second part of to the sentence:

a) "...because the drunk bastards fall down halfway through the fight."
b) "...because most people overextend and lose their balance in a fight."
c) "...because when your getting pummeled, you want to tuck into a ball."

You get the idea :D. Am I the only one who sees things this way?

I'm not saying grappling / contact manipulation is unimportant -- actually I think it's vital to our knowledge of kenpo. But the QUOTE really bothers me since I don't think it's necessarily true, particularly when one or both combatants have been trained in a martial art.

Anyone have a different take on the quote? Does anyone have first-hand knowledge of where this "statistic" originate?

Tad

[Nightingale]

dunno, but I ended up on the ground when I got attacked...

course, it was cause I was stupid and ended up standing on a flattened cardboard box that slid out from under me, but I kicked the bastard in the chin on the way down, which gave me a lot more momentum. i didn't have to ground fight cause he was out cold from his head colliding with the concrete (or my foot connecting with his jaw...not sure which).

[Sigung86]

I don't think you can percentage anything. When you are a carpenter and the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems begin to look like nails.

If you're a grappler, all your fights look like they should have gone to the ground. If you are otherwise... they look otherwise.

I've never had a real fight go to the ground. But I have two reasons for that...

1. An expanded arsenal (more than a hammer)
2. 6 Feet tall, 250 pounds plus. Stable base.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

[Kempojujutsu]

Back in the late 80's early 90's before we knew anything about Gracie Jiu Jitsu they used to run ads in Black Belt Mag claiming around 95% of most fights go to the ground. I believe it comes from the Gracie Challenge, seeing that most of the challenge matches went to the ground. This figure could be inflated by by the Gracie's. But I feel it is probaly in the high 80's percent. Was watching ESPN the other night and they showed 5 or 6 Baseball Brawls. Almost every one of the fights went to the ground. Most of these guys are untrained Martial Artists. How do I know most of them can't land a punch and when they try they fall down. Just like the Gracie's said also in there ads "Most people can't fight from the ground". One important note The Gracie's have been around since the early 1920's doing grappling. Just think if the Gracie's decided to keep their art a serect.
Bob

:asian:

[TLH3rdDan]

here is a nice quote i like to use... "90% of all fights may end on the ground but 100% begin standing"

[Kempojujutsu]

Two guys seating at the bar and get into a brawl.
Bob:D

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Two guys seating at the bar and get into a brawl.
Bob:D

"Friday Night"
:eek:

[fist of fury]

It's a proven fact that 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot.:p

[Sandor]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

Here's a question for everyone....

I keep seeing people give variations on this quote: "90% (75%, 80%, 99%, etc.) of all fights end up on the ground." This quote usually initiates a discussion on grappling / contact manipulation.

However, I've always been suspicious of this quote. I've always assumed that it has been misquoted from the source. It's like there needs to be a second part of to the sentence...


This is one of those 'marketing' statisitics that I often wonder about myself. I think its a statistic recited by Rickson Gracie on one of the old Gracie demo tapes that was circulating about 10-14 years ago.

Based on my own observations I would say the number is more like 30-40% of the time(best guestimate...), provided there is no interruption by A) bouncer(s) breaking it up B)one of the combatants is rendered helpless(ie ko'd or similar) quickly or C)many combatants being involved(friends of one party jumping into the fray against friends of the other party).


None the less, it would be interesting to find out the true statistic, whatever it is.


Peace,
Sandor

[Kirk]

I'm 350 lbs. If a 180lb attacker tries to take me to the ground,
he'd better himself have an arsenal of ways to do that.
Otherwise it's just not happening! By the same token, if I
want it to go to the ground, what can he possibly say about it?!?!
That in itself takes away from that 90% b.s.

In addition, if you're my friend, and someone is on top of you,
on the ground, his head is getting kicked in! The ground isn't
a safe place to be, in my book!

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kirk
I'm 350 lbs. If a 180lb attacker tries to take me to the ground,
he'd better himself have an arsenal of ways to do that.
Otherwise it's just not happening! By the same token, if I
want it to go to the ground, what can he possibly say about it?!?!
That in itself takes away from that 90% b.s.


I think that the 90% is a fallicy as well. However, at 350lbs, well, you're coming down and it'll be easier than a 180lb guy if done right. I know that all the heavy people will come out screaming it ain't so but it's because they've come to rely on that weight. I love how big people throw their weight around. Heh heh heh...


Originally posted by Kirk
In addition, if you're my friend, and someone is on top of you,
on the ground, his head is getting kicked in! The ground isn't
a safe place to be, in my book!

Bingo. Friends are great to have and scary to be on the wrong end of.

[fanged_seamus]

After reading some of these responses, maybe I should rephrase the question...

WHY do fights go to the ground? :confused: How much of it is intentional, unintentional (but wanted), and flat-out accidental?

In the few fights I've seen / been involved in, the only time anyone ended up on the ground is when they lost their balance, fell, or were tackled in either a desperation move or to end the fight. I've only ONCE seen anyone take a fight to the ground with the intention of controlling the person (two bouncers restraining someone). I'm sure police officers would do that, too. But in those cases, it wasn't a one-on-one fight, and the intention would be to restrain without prolonging the fight.

So realistically, what factors would contribute to a confrontation becoming a wrestling match?

Tad

[Sigung86]

I would venture to guess that most fights end up on the ground for one of two reasons....

1. Neither combatant can keep his/her/its balance (72.376%)
2. One opponent feels he/she/it can control the fight better on the ground. (Whatever is leftover %) :lol: :lol: :lol:


Insofar as percentages. I'd say that approximately 63.2370567% of everything Gou says in about 66.3456123% smoke! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Insofar as percentages. I'd say that approximately 63.2370567% of everything Gou says is about 66.3456123% smoke

You'd be about 3.14% right.
:rolleyes:

[Blindside]

hey Dan,

at least you are pi right.

I like pie.

Lamont

[Klondike93]

Or they play football and are used to tackling people, or they wrestle and want to take you down with single or double leg takedowns.



:asian:

[GouRonin]

Who doesn't like Pi? I like Pi "R" and squared even!

The ground is where people go if they feel comfortable. Don't go there if you don't feel comfortable. But make sure you know how to NOT go there.

[Blindside]

And be sure you know how to get up if someone puts you there.

I learned groundfighting so that I could get up if someone took me down. Being on the ground sucks, being on the ground and not knowing what you are doing there sucks worse.

Lamont

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Blindside

And be sure you know how to get up if someone puts you there.

I learned groundfighting so that I could get up if someone took me down. Being on the ground sucks, being on the ground and not knowing what you are doing there sucks worse.

Lamont

Yeah what he said........



:asian:

[Michael Billings]

But you got to remember, people who don't learn to fight, do what they can - like try to throw someone to the ground, sit on 'em, and pound their face until it is an unrecognizable mass of bleeding ... well, nevermind, you get the idea.

What part of it boils down to is boys just like to wrestle ... we grew up doing it, and in stress, unless trained differently, we revert back to old response patterns. Whether they are pro-survival or not.

Keep it Real & Keep on Training & Survive,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

[Seig]

When I was younger, most of the fights I was in wound up on the ground. Why? Because the person(s) I was fighting got tired of getting pounded and tried to tackle me to take away two of my weapons. Jiu-Jitsu did help in this regard, since I have started with AK(applied Kenpo) I feel it to be more effective FOR ME

[TIGER DRAGON FIGHT]

i tell my students that the reason most fights go to the ground is becuase either of two caught in the fight get too close and grab the other. human instinct comes into play and you begin to pull and tug with each other till one of you trip or is taken down. i train my students that once there grabbed to immediatley begin to stike at all the sensitive targets on the body. if taken on the ground to have one goal in mind and that is to get back to their feet.

[Karazenpo]

Okay, here's my 'spin' on it and it may be unpopular but it's my experience. I've been a police officer since 1977 and before that I never shyed away from a good brawl if it had to come to that. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Fighting is simple and too many martial artists make it this overcomplicated event similiar to what one would see in a movie. No one fights like in Walker, Texas Ranger or Enter the Dragon and if you think so you're living in a fantasy world. No matter how good you are, what your style is or how big and bad you are, fighting is 'sloppy' and does go to the ground often. What the percentage is, I don't know, but be prepared to finish it off on the ground if you're fighting a 'worthy' opponent. Most martial artists do not want to admit to themselves that a lot of the techniques they practice, no matter what style, have a limited success rate in the real world when practiced in their entirety. What I mean is, fighting skills emerge from the 'raw basics' and the ability to 'take some' to 'give some'. I will bet anyone on this forum that they cannot give a verifiable, documented encounter against a WORTHY opponent (because let's face it, you can do a 'kata' on some people that engage you in a fight!, lol), now I mean a fight as seen in the dojo doing choreographed techniques or as I said before, theatrical fighting. Please be honest with yourself, it just doesn't happen and I've seen some really good fighters mix it up. William Cheung is an extremely talented Wing Chun master, did you see him go to the ground when that guy crashed his seminar??? Didn't look like 'sticky hands' to me! This is in no disrespect to Cheung for it could happen to ANYONE because IMHO that's the way it is! We, as martial artists, have to dispel the myths and start dealing with reality. Martial arts is a great thing but let's keep it in the proper perspective or we'll be giving a lot of people a false sense of security. Dealt with realistically, martial arts, by far, can be a PLUS in any physical encounter.

[KenpoDave]

It is my opinion that most fights end up in a grappling situation. Now, that is not necessarily going to the ground. It seems that at some point, the clinch occurs and then both guys struggle to get away from the other guy, and an escape of some sort does not occur pretty quick, they either fall, or one of them takes the other down. Not a single leg, osoto gari, more of a "fling him around till we fall and maybe he'll let go then" type of throw. Nothing as pretty and nice as we would like.

But, to add to the question, does the average opponent want to be on the ground? We always discuss this issue from our own "highly trained martial artist" perspective, but I often wonder if I am attacked by a street thug and we end up on the ground, am I now in his comfort zone? Or is he looking to scramble back to his feet as quickly as me? We seem to assume that 85% of fights end up on the ground because that is where the opponent wants to be. I think Seamus' original 3 qualifiers were pretty good. Fights go to the ground when something goes wrong, simply because it is rare that you are going to run across a highly skilled groundfighter in the normal street altercation. :asian:

[Mark Weiser]

Well well my my my lol! Someone hit it right on target dude. That is why I started my business in the first place. Strike First CSTC (Combat and Safety Training Center) is where we learn how to fight in combat aka Street not Katas and such. But I can and do teach this as a separate class.

I teach a Self-Defense course starting this fall. Simple straight to the point brawling. Fighting is not pretty and never will be. You are correct in a real fight all the Martial Arts stuff goes out the window most of the time and if you try and throw a punch with all your might or a kick. The dude is still standing there with a grin on his face and saying is that it!? The best possible outcome is too cause so much pain and suffering that they will think twice about it again lol. Try fancy punches or kicks on a Drunk or someone high on cocaine.

You can call it dirty fighting but survivual is the goal.
High Five to Karazenpo. I too am a former Reserve Deputy

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

[hedgehogey]

Umm...you appear to be a kenpo teacher. How is what you do not classical? And what does this have to do with groundfighting?

[Karazenpo]

Well well my my my lol! Someone hit it right on target dude. That is why I started my business in the first place. Strike First CSTC (Combat and Safety Training Center) is where we learn how to fight in combat aka Street not Katas and such. But I can and do teach this as a separate class.

I teach a Self-Defense course starting this fall. Simple straight to the point brawling. Fighting is not pretty and never will be. You are correct in a real fight all the Martial Arts stuff goes out the window most of the time and if you try and throw a punch with all your might or a kick. The dude is still standing there with a grin on his face and saying is that it!? The best possible outcome is too cause so much pain and suffering that they will think twice about it again lol. Try fancy punches or kicks on a Drunk or someone high on cocaine.

You can call it dirty fighting but survivual is the goal.
High Five to Karazenpo. I too am a former Reserve Deputy

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


Thank you, Brother Mark. We're definitely on the same page and the reason being is that we have either in the past, as yourself or currently as myself have had to use this stuff to save our butts, not in theory or in the dojo, but for a living in the real world. This is not at all to put anyone down, not everyone's occupation puts them in this position but I feel we, as experienced law enforcement officers, should have a strong voice on this issue. Again, along with correctional officers, bodyguards and bar and night club employees also. My feeling on this issue are two-pronged. First, many of these choreographed techniques are part of the 'commercialized package' sold to the public. Secondly, some instructors who never really mix it up with a really bad dude start to believe this stuff and develop a false sense of security. They start to actually believe fighting is like the The Perfect Weapon, Lone Wolf McQuade or Enter the Dragon when it comes to the martial arts. What's worse, if they don't experience the true reality of fighting or at least are not taught by a reality instructor, such as Mark, then they continue to pass this on and a 'myth' is perpetuated. As stated by others, fighting is not pretty. It's down and dirty and expect to roll around on the sidewalk with someone because if you don't, you will be 'shocked' if it happens and you will most likely hesitate giving the advantage to your oppponet who's been there and done that! A 'High Five' to you also, Brother Mark! Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

[BallistikMike]

Hi all :)

Well I will use this thread as my first ever post here at Matial Talk :)

The claim that most fights end up on the ground is absolutely true ... however we need to look at what they are claiming.

Are they claiming the traditional sense of most fights going to the ground like you would see at a UFC event. Where two prepared althletes have trained to take each other down and try to submit or ground and pound?

Are they talking of a bar brawl where an ambush happens and a victim is knocked out on his/her feet and falls to the ground and the attacker jumps on to further the damage along?

Are they talking about the "Gracie Challenge" where a master instructor brings an opponent onto a mat with rules of combat knowing full well they are taking it to the ground regardless of the damge they take?

Are they talking of the lone woman walking up her apartment steps to be surprised and pulled into the bushes onto her back with the attacker already between her legs?

So many variables about a fight (street, ambush or contest) how can one put an actual percentage on it?

My experience of owning a bar for nearly 15 years now and the many, many fights I broke up, started (yes I have done that :) lol ), finished for others, pre-empted, I can count on one hand how many went to the ground. So my personal stats show a figure closer to only 5% went to ground ... for me. My opponent was on the ground the other 95%.

So again I have to agree that 95%+ fights do end up on the ground ... for someone.

Also as a side note - Remember your Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo works very, very well on the ground. Panic and the perception of not knowing what to do is what causes failure. Stay focused, cause damage and get back up. Eyes, throat, balls, knees, livers are still there when on the ground also. :)

Edit for some spacing issues :)

[loki09789]

I don't think you can percentage anything. When you are a carpenter and the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems begin to look like nails.

If you're a grappler, all your fights look like they should have gone to the ground. If you are otherwise... they look otherwise.

I've never had a real fight go to the ground. But I have two reasons for that...

1. An expanded arsenal (more than a hammer)
2. 6 Feet tall, 250 pounds plus. Stable base.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan
The stats are basically a survey that someone can use for things like figuring out what and why they should organize their training.

If you are female, single, college age white girl living in the N.Eastern part of the country (hypothetical stats and profile) and your instructor researches stats and it looks like the most likely threat you need to be prepared for is a date rape situation where you are likely to know the possible attacker, then your training can be tailored to fit that more likely threat..... just a 'possible use of stats and percentages.'

I know that the NHL stats on what percentage of what type of shots on goal score the most and during what period have been used by trainers to target and train the statistically most likely shot to be successful first and the least likely to score is allowed to develop more slowly and with greater attention to detail because it can become that secret weapon.

I do agree that percentages and stats only make up part of the equation. A solid foundation in well rounded basics is the way to go. From there, it is just a matter of organizing the 'package' to fit the momentary/situational need (which, like the college girl scenario) might be a whole contextual situation or just momentary attack (tactical planning/responses).