Spiridinov?

[Clash]

I was curious if anyone here has ever worked with the Spiridinov system,
is it still practiced commonly in Russia? I have heard that it has had a alot of influence on other Russian Arts, and would like to know more on the history of it, or Samoz. Any info or links to sites that offer information on this system would be appreciated.

Regards,Daniel

[Clive]

I could be wrong here but I think he was a student of A. A. Kodachnikov, who then went on to develop R.O.S.S.

[Pervaz]

Your wrong clive

[erich]

You beat me to it Pervaz.

wrong wrong wrong

[Clive]

He was Kadochnikov student though?

[erich]

He was before Kadochnikov. Spiridonov is one of the engineers of modern russian martial arts along with Oschepev and Kharlempiev. In fact, I think that Kadochnikov may claim some lineage from Spiridonov's teachings.

The story goes that S had sustained injuries which left him in poor physical condition. As a result he developed a style that relied on sensitivity, deception, spirit and phsychology more than purely physical attributes.

Oschepev and Kharlempiev were physically impressive people, they became the fathers of the various forms of Sambo. Spiridonov's style came to be incorporated for more subtle and lethal work. Styles significantly influenced by Spiridonov include SAMOZ and possibly others.

but I could be wrong

As far is I can tell stories from this period (first half of the last century) are very murky, even dubious, because of the manner in which the bolsheviks manipulated the historical record. It is almost impossible to know what is real and what is fiction.

Clive - are you thinking of Retuinski? He was a student of K and as far as I know it was Retuinski that was behind ROSS.

[Clash]

Thanks for the replies,and I also have heard that Kadochnikov had some lineage with the Spiridonov system.From what material I have read about Spiridonov,it mentioned the injury during combat, by that of a bayonet.
Afterwards due to the injury, he looked to develop a system that would work for the injured, or for the weaker in physical status..a soft style. Here is a link that I found,http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/spiridonov.shtml it is all in Russian language, but there is some interesting historical photos on the site. Other than that, I have found very little info on this topic.

[Clive]

Clive - are you thinking of Retuinski? He was a student of K and as far as I know it was Retuinski that was behind ROSS.

I must be, I think I may need brush up on my history..

[mscroggins]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what is happening with Retuinski and his system in the US?

[Clash]

Scott Sonnon is still teaching it"ROSS" here in the states, believe hes located in Atlanta Georgia?

[SonnyPuzikas]

Good luck to all looking for solid and unbiased info on evolution of RMA's from early 1900's to 1970's or so...
While few names (Spiridonov one of them) are most often associated with birth and evolution of Soviet combat methods, there were others, practically unknown, but not less influential on emergence of these methods.
ROSS and its founder Mr. R are no longer represented by Scott Sonnon. Scott has his RMAX, which according to Scott himself is not RMA, or not MA for that matter... And Scott is in WA state.
I'm not sure of anybody representing ROSS in the US at this time.

[erich]

Clash, you are probably thinking of Matt Powell who lives in Atlanta and has studied with Kadochnikov in Russia. If you search this forum for his name I believe you will find a recent thread on his current activities.

I am not aware of any ROSS activity in North America at this time either but I am also curious. If anybody out there in cyber land knows of anything please post.

Thanks for your insight Sonny.

[Clash]

Thanks Sonny for the words of insight, and you are correct...it is hard to get a direct lineage on many of the Systems from Russia. I wasnt aware ROSS was no longer represented in the states by Scott Sonnon, I havent looked in to it in quite some time.Im not sure why I was thinking he was in Atlanta,I knew that Matt Powell was from the area.Sorry for incorrect info :idunno:
Is Scott's work more dedicated to sport and physical preparation now?

Regards, Daniel

[Ironman]

i have both his softwork and Warrior Wellness DVD's. His material is very good and definetly helps explain a lot of the fundementals of what we do in Systema, i like it as a suplementry material to the Systema dvds but not as a substitute. Its definitly worth checking out. Although his claim about Softwork not been Rma is about as realistic as Al Quada converting to Christianity.

[mscroggins]

Good points, Sonny. I get the feeling when the story comes to light it will resemble How The Irish Saved Civilization.

Roughly, it would be like the DoD collecting Native American fighting and survival systems, running them through the scientific establishment, then teaching the result to the special forces.

Anyway, wherever it comes from, this is a great year for training in North America.

[Clash]

Ironman, I will definately have to look in to those videos that you mentioned.
Its been some time since I have seen any of Scott Sonnons work, likely why I wasnt aware he was no longer affilated with ROSS. I have an older video
"Introduction to Authentic Russian Martial Art" with Retuinskih demonstrating alot of principals of ROSS,along with Sonnon. There is alot of work with weapon disarment at the end.You can see how leverage principals apply with most Russian styles, the work is all very familar.

Regards,Daniel

[Ironman]

ahhh but remember his new material is Rmax not Rma (its got an 'X' at the end of it :ultracool , even the leverage principals :uhyeah: )

[Clash]

haha...but movement is movement,and scientific law is universal yeah? With or without a title, alot of the principles will relate,even with an X added to the end :)

[Ironman]

aww no doubt what-so-ever

[mscroggins]

haha...but movement is movement,and scientific law is universal yeah? With or without a title, alot of the principles will relate,even with an X added to the end :)

Assuming that Sonnon's material is scientifically sound, and therefore universal. To my eye, it looks more scientifix, than scientific.

If you have a Systema question, why not simply ask an instructor? Either on the mat, or via PM.

[Clash]

I wasnt suggesting a challenge or opposing a view,only was suggesting that likely the leverage work would look familar to many, and the principles would be applicable.Actually was agreeing with Ironman, just speaking of relation of certain factors, I have no doubts about Systema's effectiveness :)

[mscroggins]

I see the problem. You were refering to "Introduction to Authentic Russian Martial Art". I was talking about Sonnon's newer material. The two are different.

I have watched "Introduction to Authentic Russian Martial Art" and I think it is very good. But I really like "From Dance to Combat". :)

In my opinion, better explanations of leverage work can be found in the book "Russian style Hand to Hand Combat", and in Matt Powell's ebook. Powell's ebook has an in depth explanation of leverage work and unbalancing. Plus, he supplies references for further study.

[Clash]

Yes,yes I was speaking of the demonstration work that was demonstrated on"Introduction to Authentic Russian Martial art". Is Scott's new material similar to any of that, that was demonstrated in that video? I havent seen
"From Dance to Combat" is it composed of seminar footage?

I have heard that Matt's ebook was great, with alot of indepth explanation on applying physics to fight,leverage work and unbalancing. I look forward to seeing Pramek in action, Im sure alot of the principals will be applied in his new work.Thanks for the reply and pardon the misunderstanding :)

[Ironman]

i don't think the ebook (assuming its the K-sys one) is sold anymore due to Matt starting Pramek and such, but i'm not sure.

[mpowell]

I have a bit of experience with Spiridinovian style through my study of Kadochnikov style. I don't really want to discuss the specifics here...
AI Retuinksih, who was a Kadochnikov style student of, I think, about 17 years, wrote that Mr. Kadochnikov was pretty much the only person who ended up making Spiridinovian style 'work'.
Spiridinov's style was called 'Officer's style', taught mainly in the officer ranks (whereas other's learned the other forms of Sambo), and was for the 'saboteur.' Remember, a lot of the system's were not taught to regular military, they weren't belived 'smart' enough to learn them. Mr. Kadochnikov's system for a long time was taught at the Rocket and Engineering schools because they were easier to teach.
It's based in old Russian Tsarist and before methods, and some eastern methods mixed in (he studied Aiki-jitsu and others and put it in his part of the development of SAMBO). I think most would find it the most 'soft' of the styles of Sambo because he couldn't get down and roll around with everyone. Sambo had three flavors, one sport, one military and police, and one for the special ops-type saboteur who couldn't bother wrestling aruond for a while. Spiridinov's style, was the last one mentioned. It's for the most part pretty practical, but on the other hand, needs a lot of traniing to pull off.
Mr. Kadochnikov at one point was a student of two of Spiridinov's direct students (one of whom still lives in Moscow but is in his 80's and still full of piss and vinegar :) ).
The methods in Spiridinovian system are based a lot upon methods that revolved a lot around redirection of energy, shots to the throat and disabling methods, etc. Not a lot of dancing about....
His is probably the hardest to learn and use, because of his personal body that he designed it around...he was injured in war by a bayonet and generally of poor health. So, he designed his system to use very little energy to get the job done.
Mr. Kadochnikov completed a lot of that work that was 'hard to do' by his more indepth study of biomechanics and mechanics which made a lot of the method used more clear in how they functioned.
After Kadochnikov, you don't find a whole lot of active study of Spiridinovian style because he made it much simpler to use and learn. I don't think Retuinskih really touched on Spiridinovian style in the development of ROSS, and studied mainly in the other forms of Sambo and put those together with Kadochnikov system and some native Cossack and Slavic methods and dance to form ROSS. I have my own opinions on dance in the development of RMA, but that's another conversation....
I still sell the manual on a very limited basis to RMA students because it's part of American RMA works, and feel it's better than some of the manuals in Russia...though it pales compared to the PraMek manual that will come out.
As for ROSS in America, I hope it comes back, as some of those folks teaching it in the late 90's and early 00's when I was studying ROSS were really great and nice people who worked really hard to get ROSS going.
Sonny has a great point about all the ones we don't see...I personally feel that had it not been for the Soviet ideology, it would be evident RMA is as big as CMA.

M

[Ironman]

thanx for the in depth info, now if you could just hurry up on the site :D!!!

[mpowell]

This weekend my friends....

[Clash]

Many thanks Matt for the reply, that is indeed a very interesting details on Spiridinov style. Many of the details I havent heard, likely due to the murky history behind this topic. My curiousity was built when a friend of mine that is an instructor in Combat Aiki, mentioned Spiridinov in one of his classes. Likely due to that of what you mentioned, the relation to Aiki-jitsu, and its influence in Sambo.

I also have ran across a book on ebay, that mentioned both Kadochnikov and Spiridinov in its title,I was curious what was the relation between the two would be. We definately look forward to see what is upcoming this weekend,cant wait to check it out :ultracool

[Ironman]

looking forward to it Matt :-partyon:

[mpowell]

The site, Pramek.com, is up....we're still working out the kinks.

[Clash]

The site looks great,we have all been looking forward to its launching.
Very interesting and logical approach to modern day combatives/survival
behind this system, cant wait to see more updates...everyone go check it
out :ultracool

[Ironman]

indeed, the site looks amazing. very cool logo :).

[Pervaz]

The logo consists of Giovanni Alfonso Borelli, the father of biomechanics, and it's his symbol for his study of weight bearing loads on the body (and not Atlas as I thought of it !)

[Ironman]

is that so?? very interesting man, i always thought it was an atlas :) .