:asian:

But as we have discussed on another occation, I find that all form and technique go out the window when in get in the sparring ring/square. Of course my sparring career is relatively sparse, but I look forward to the day where it stops being despirate blocking attemps and wild swings at whatever comes close or not so close.

Technique lines have their place. Repeated practise, of defences I enjoy those as well, especially if people in the line move around so that you are working with different people. The more people, differents sizes, shapes, strengths, angles and weights helps you to learn to adjust the technique to different circumstances/people.

Sparring, at least for a beginner like myself, is a great cardio workout, and an even greatter way to relieve stress, along with of course learning how to defend yourself and DUCK!! one shot to the head at a time. ;)

dot
:asian:

I enjoy sparring as well, but in my classes we work the line much more frequently. Mainly do to the inexperience of the group.

A good monkey line is easier for most to be successful with, plus it gives us practice with multiple attackers. We start relatively slow, and then add speed as we improve.

I have a cracked nose and bruises all over my body from pressure point fighting.
BUT..... I do remember the first time I tried to take my husband on after I started kempo, two months of training I believe. He laighed as he trumped my butt....

Now last week (ten months of training) he still laughed, but nervously, as he said "geez, you're getting better!!"

I could not have gotten that ability from a technique line. Sometimes a big sweaty guy is just what you need.....for training.


On the other hand, *ahem* he " happened" to notice a big old bruise on my upper inner thigh...(last weeks grappling class, of course) and demanded to know just HOW it got there.... (elbow to the femoral, pinning the leg)

Regardless, I just love to spar. Barring serious injury the bruises are all part of the fun.

And I LOVE the look on a new student's face when he is told to "hit her, she can take a beating" before AND after he actually hits me.....:rofl:

my kind a female student!!
:asian:

I love technique stuff. But my sparring sucks, because I didn't spar much in old school, so now I have to make up for it. But I'm not affraid to get in there with the fellas and go a round, even if I get whooped. It's fun :D .

Hey Dennis.. Good to have you back :)

Watching some of the students preforming their techniques with the fluidity of a water ballerina.. not a noise from their lips.. not an exertion from their muscles.. makes me narrow my eyes and my BP rise.. and I let them know in no holds barred way.. they are NOT in water ballet~!! These same people when sparring speed up their ballet movements and I just have to grin when I easily get a strike in.

we spar 2x weekly full gear .. techniques the rest of the 3 days.. We don't get into formal lines to do our techniques.. but break the belt groupings together and each cluster works on their lists.
Do tell me more Dennis ..
I like to learn stuff :))

Tess

Each drill teaches something different... The question of which do you guys (hee hee girls I mean) like better was just one of curiosity.

Technique Lines offer conditioning on various "un alerted" self defense techniques and different possibilities....

while.....

Sparring offers more training when the opponent is "alerted" to your response.....

different yet both useful.

:asian:

Ok.. you're asking a mood dependent question Dennis *g*.. Some days I like working on the techs, other days.. Sparring.. If I'm feeling frisky and aggressive.. oh Let me at em.. if I'm really feeling good mentally.. I prefer the techniques.. sooooo.. that's my take ;))

Tess

I don't know about any of you girls, but I get sparring once every two weeks at my school, and I like it a lot. I find technique lines boring and hard to work in, if you want my opinion :)

Oos - :asian:
Quinn

Okay Tess...I know I'm one of the guilty water ballerinas...hehe. Sparring or Techniques? If I'm in the right mood I like to spar, but at other times I like techniques. Like Kenpogirl most of my techniques that we work on in class normally go out the door when we spar. But a few of my peers and I when sparring now are like "hey throw a left/right punch and let's practice circling fans and some how incorporate it into our sparring". It's really been helping too. Sword of destruction, white belt technique, works great when sparring because everyone is trying things so much more complicated when some of the simple stuff is just as effective. All in all, sparring is more fun.:cool:

Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000

Okay Tess...I know I'm one of the guilty water ballerinas...hehe. Sparring or Techniques? If I'm in the right mood I like to spar, but at other times I like techniques. Like Kenpogirl most of my techniques that we work on in class normally go out the door when we spar. But a few of my peers and I when sparring now are like "hey throw a left/right punch and let's practice circling fans and some how incorporate it into our sparring". It's really been helping too. Sword of destruction, white belt technique, works great when sparring because everyone is trying things so much more complicated when some of the simple stuff is just as effective. All in all, sparring is more fun.:cool:
You are all still suckers for Alternating Maces!!:angel:

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

But as we have discussed on another occation, I find that all form and technique go out the window when in get in the sparring ring/square. Of course my sparring career is relatively sparse, but I look forward to the day where it stops being despirate blocking attemps and wild swings at whatever comes close or not so close.

Does this happen? My school doesn't spar, for whatever reason,
and I'm just curious to the fact if I ever HAVE TO use any of this,
whether or not I will, or will result the brawling I did as a young
punk with an attitude.

Originally posted by Kirk



Does this happen? My school doesn't spar, for whatever reason,
and I'm just curious to the fact if I ever HAVE TO use any of this,
whether or not I will, or will result the brawling I did as a young
punk with an attitude.

I think there's alot of mental thought that is required in Sparring using Teks.. If you tend to practice your teks with a partner and actually do them with speed and accuracy you will be more likely to retain them in your muscle memory and use them in reality..
We spar at least 2x a week.. if not more.. I love it most of the time.. :) depends on how beat I am that night ..
we all have to concentrate on using a technique on our opponent.. except those that have been in MA for eons.. *winks at Seig*
I hope you get to try sparring.. I couldn't see our studio not doing it~!!

Well all... in all honesty.. I don't get the chance to spar that much... and when i do.. i realize just how much out of shape i still am.. but i have taken some tips from other.. to help better myself and i have found out that HEY.. if you Breath.. you can survive sparring.. lol :shrug:
I like the line Techs.. but i do realize that.. sparring should become part of a routine as well.. we have sparring classes on Sat.. i guess i'll have to bite the bullet and go give it a whirl.. what ever doesn't kill me ... will make me stronger!! RIGHT??

"i have found out that HEY.. if you Breath.. you can survive sparring.. lol "
Yes, I've found breathing very effective, Eraser LOL
But I think sparring continually will help a street reaction in a way that a technique line might not. Of course, there's always that one where you get in a circle and there's one person in the middle, and someone just attacks you out of nowhere. I like those ones. Those are effective as well, I bet. *sheepish grin* Just remember, I'm biased against tech lines, so...Heh.

Oos - :asian:
Quinn

we do the circle sparring drills.. it's great fun and good for the bystanders to watch closely as the fighters spar.. When we do line sparring it's simultaneous sparring and doesn't allow us to really see whats going on.

All in All.. sparring is great stuff ;)

This is a good topic .. :)

Ok, I'm not a girl, but here's my little observation.

Some of the young children and teens in our school have problems whenever working with the opposite sex. Just to much giggling and they got "cuties". You should watch them try not to touch or do a technique at arms lenght. :shrug: I have noticed more young ladies have a bigger confidence problem when first learning to spar, and boys tend to like to spar more so than do techniques.

Hand off to the ladies.

don

Ok it's been 4 yrs since this thread was discussed.. Let's see what people think now :)

Not sure what a technique line is...when everyone lines up and comes at you one after another and you practice a specific move? We do that in my class, but we don't really have a name for it. Techniques are very loosely defined in Systema. The instructor might show four or five ways to defend with just the legs, then ask us to try using them while our partners attack. It's best to try everything but some people prefer to stick with what works for them. But there are always options.
We do work calmly, though. There is no yelling or kias in Systema. Tess might get that BP up watching our class! We aim to fall silently, and after sparring, we are not supposed to be breathless. Of course, I always am anyway, but the idea is that we should be able to spar all day without getting tired, not just for a few minutes at a time.
Sparring is a lot easier for me and I think for most other Systema students, as well. You can use whatever works best for you. Trying to learn a new move is challenging. For example, when sparring, usually, I'm free to strike my opponent. That makes it a thousand times easier for me. But learning a particular move, to be a good student, I have to give it an honest try. If I'm supposed to try taking my partner down with just my legs, I can't just strike him and then say, Look, I took down my guy, so I succeeded, right? Some students do that and it annoys me. Trying something new that you haven't done before, of course, you are going to look clumsy and fail for the first few times. But if you just keep doing the things you already know, you aren't learning. It's silly to avoid trying new things just out of a fear of looking bad. When I spar, I tend not to try brand-new things with which I'm unfamiliar. I do those things that I do best. So that's why I think sparring is easier for most of my class than working on particular movements.
Well, that's my $0.02. Just keep in mind that we all practice different styles so these things are going to be different for all of us.
Best wishes,
Rachel

Hello, One thing you will need to know is? Will either one work in a real street fight?

With no rules and anything goes! Biting, scratching,screaming, and hitting with everthing you got and around you to use?

One day you will learn real fighting is different from Martial art style of fighting. It may work against a non-train person, but against a street experience fighter?

Please research this area on street fighting..........these on not taught in all martial art classes "Real fighting"..... most fights ends in less than 12 seconds..because the person who strikes first will keep on hitting and kicking non-stop, and the other person was taken by surprise because they did not expect it to go that far ,or didn't want it too.

..............Life is short............Aloha

Not sure what a technique line is...when everyone lines up and comes at you one after another and you practice a specific move? Basically that's it. In some schools technique lines are done by each person getting attacked by all the other participants who come at them in a line, or it can be done by taking turns at the head of the line and being attacked by only the person behind you in line, and then going to the back of the line.

We do work calmly, though. There is no yelling or kias in Systema. Tess might get that BP up watching our class! We aim to fall silently, and after sparring, we are not supposed to be breathless. Of course, I always am anyway, but the idea is that we should be able to spar all day without getting tired, not just for a few minutes at a time. We strive for this, but it is difficult for many to relax and maintain breathing.

If I'm supposed to try taking my partner down with just my legs, I can't just strike him and then say, Look, I took down my guy, so I succeeded, right? Some students do that and it annoys me. Trying something new that you haven't done before, of course, you are going to look clumsy and fail for the first few times. But if you just keep doing the things you already know, you aren't learning. It's silly to avoid trying new things just out of a fear of looking bad. When I spar, I tend not to try brand-new things with which I'm unfamiliar. I do those things that I do best. So that's why I think sparring is easier for most of my class than working on particular movements. You bring up some interesting points. I think it is important to take people out of their comfort zone, especially in terms of sparring. In the class I teach I have been aiming towards having people build on their own weaknesses and breaking down other's strengths so that we can all develop more fully. Although a few really well developed, strong techniques can be effective, it's important to me to challenge people to try new things, especially in terms of things like learning to develop your weak side in case you are injured on your strong side. It is also important to me to learn new things, because what works in the school, as still learning points out, may not work the same in the street.

In terms of technique lives vs. sparring I like them both and see a place for both, although I have been trying to move away from just free sparring to more of an impact ideology where things are trained worked and drilled for impact and are closer to reality.


MJ :asian:

To me the technique lines are what get you to the sparring rounds. My instructor likes to work on what he calls muscle memory. Your body reacts before your mind has time to process. So doing technique over and over makes it become part of you. BUT, I do love to sparr. You get the chance to use what you've been learning. Also if you get to sit out around before you're back in you get to watch your opponents and see their flaws and use it against them. Most of our sparring is controlled sparring, one person can only attack the other only defend. Then both can attack and defend. It works really good with new students. And, I too, love it when a new guy in class finds out the little lady can hit hard and doesn't hesitate to do it.

My theory is that striking gives women a big advantage. You don't need strength or size to strike well. Many of my male partners have been surprised by my strikes. Sparring changes dramatically when our teacher gives us permission to strike each other. I find that the men respect my ability a lot more after I've landed a few strikes. I've talked to other women who also agree that striking levels out any advantage men might have over women because of their greater strength and size.
But, on a different topic, still learning wrote:

One day you will learn real fighting is different from Martial art style of fighting...Please research this area on street fighting..........these on not taught in all martial art classes...
This strikes me as a bit presumptious...you assume that none of us could know this already, that the martial arts we study do not teach "real" fighting, that we need to do more research because we clearly haven't gotten around to doing this research yet...the general idea I get from your message is that you are dismissive our our training and that we will one day learn that our training has not prepared us for conflict. I don't know if it's just the way you've phrased it, but that's how I interpreted your post. And if that's what you are trying to convey, then I think you should consider that everyone has the right to choose the kind of training they believe will best prepare them to defend against violence. It doesn't matter if you or anyone else doesn't believe their style is any good. It's more important that the practitioner believes her style is effective, than that you believe it.
When I meet other martial artists, I'm interested to learn about their style, even if I personally do not believe it's an effective form of self-defense. It's just not very polite to tell other martial artists that they need to do more research, especially if you've never trained with them. If you were to come train with me and then offer the same suggestions or tell me that one day I'll learn better, I'd be totally open to your comments and would probably follow up on them. But if you've never trained with me, then it's hard for me to accept your advice of doing more research to learn what "real" fighting is like. "Real" fighting can never be reproduced, not in the ring, not in a dojo, because there is a vast difference between training and actual violence.
Maybe I'm coming down too hard on you, but that's how I interpreted your post. I am always open to being mistaken and perhaps that's not what you meant, in which case, I hope you'll clarify (with something a bit more than "training-in-the-dojo-is-not-the-same-as-streetfighting" because that's nothing new, we've all heard that before, usually right before a long list of "streetfighting creds" which are meant to show how ineffective dojo training is. A seasoned streetfighter is dangerous, but so is a trained martial artist, or a drug addict, or an attack dog, or a speeding car--or any of the other dangers in life and we should train to survive all of them.)
I hope I'm not being too harsh but sometimes I feel compelled to write what I am really thinking rather than cloaking it in a veneer of etiquette, even if the veneer makes me a nicer person with whom to interact, but once in awhile I think it's good to write in a more forthright style.
All the best,
Rachel

To me the technique lines are what get you to the sparring rounds. My instructor likes to work on what he calls muscle memory. Your body reacts before your mind has time to process. So doing technique over and over makes it become part of you. BUT, I do love to sparr. You get the chance to use what you've been learning. Also if you get to sit out around before you're back in you get to watch your opponents and see their flaws and use it against them. Most of our sparring is controlled sparring, one person can only attack the other only defend. Then both can attack and defend. It works really good with new students. And, I too, love it when a new guy in class finds out the little lady can hit hard and doesn't hesitate to do it.Hi and Welcome:wavey: Working the techniques over and over does develop muscle memory, but situations in sparring are not always conducive to using them exactly as they come off in a technique line, hopefully you will have moments, as a friend of my says of "I've been here before" and can use what you've practiced because it fits. Hopefully, as you say, without having to think about it.

MJ :)

I hope I'm not being too harsh but sometimes I feel compelled to write what I am really thinking rather than cloaking it in a veneer of etiquette, even if the veneer makes me a nicer person with whom to interact, but once in awhile I think it's good to write in a more forthright style.
Forthright is fine so long as things don't get personal, which they haven't. :asian: Still learning I read your post more generally, but I'd be interested in hearing your constructive response to Rachel's post. :asian:

What is a "technique line"? Is it like "one-steps"?

What is a "technique line"? Is it like "one-steps"?A technique line basically is a way for a whole group of people to practice their techniques together. In some schools technique lines are done by each person getting attacked by all the other participants who come at them in a line, one by one, or it can be done by taking turns at the head of the line and being attacked by only the person behind you in line, and then going to the back of the line. :)

My theory is that striking gives women a big advantage. You don't need strength or size to strike well. Many of my male partners have been surprised by my strikes. Sparring changes dramatically when our teacher gives us permission to strike each other. I find that the men respect my ability a lot more after I've landed a few strikes. I've talked to other women who also agree that striking levels out any advantage men might have over women because of their greater strength and size.


Just speaking from my experience, but I don't really beleive this is true. Sparring against someone signifigantly lighter than me does give me an advantage. I do tend to match the output being thrown at me though, so the perception could certainly arise that I don't have a noticeable advantage. That's not the same thing as lacking an advantage though.

I don't necessarily believe that to be true either. Like you said, Marginal, you don't know if the guy is holding back his advantage. I know guys are usually bigger than me and take the strikes alot easier than I can, of equal power or more because of my mass and body structure. But I think some women have the advantage of being quicker, more nimble, flexible, and have more stamina. Could be the same advantage for some guys though too. But, I would think not too many big guys can move around quickly. Least that is true in our dojang.

On the topic, we don't do technique lines as described, but I think they would be advantageous for sparring as anything is a learning experience. Sparring is more unpredictable, hence better all over training since opponents are moving around more. TW

I personally find sparring better, I'm usually more focused then in line drills and I just find it more enjoyable. If there's a specific technique i'm frustrated wtih, then of course line drills are better for me at that time
Aqua

Just speaking from my experience, but I don't really beleive this is true. Sparring against someone signifigantly lighter than me does give me an advantage. I do tend to match the output being thrown at me though, so the perception could certainly arise that I don't have a noticeable advantage. That's not the same thing as lacking an advantage though.
I did say in my first post to this thread that we all train in different styles and will have a different perspective. In my style (Systema), being larger or stronger is no particular advantage. Skill is the only advantage. In other styles, being larger and stronger is an advantage, and they train to acquire strength. That is probably why men greatly outnumber women in most martial arts (including Systema). Women don't want to train in a MA that tells them they will always be at a disadvantage.
If you have an advantage against someone who is significantly lighter, that means that when sparring against someone who is significantly heavier, you have a disadvantage. It does not benefit me to enter a sparring situation or heaven forbid a real conflict with the psychological perspective of having a disadvantage. There are plenty of situations where I will have a real disadvantage, if my opponent is armed and I am empty-handed, if they are crazy or on drugs, or if they are a professional criminal, or simply more skilled than I am. I don't need to give them an "automatic" advantage based on the way they look. Within thirty seconds I will discover whether or not they have an advantage over me anyway, but I do not assume that they do simply because they are larger.
Most of the men in my class are larger and stranger; they have no advantage over me. Perhaps I see an advantage over them in striking simply because it is one of my better skills, and because I've spent more time practicing, I am less afraid of being hit. When I see that they are afraid to get close to me and sometimes, they will even back away from me, then it's hard for me to see any advantage to being larger and stronger. The best advantage is superior skill and a strong spirit, and those can exist in even the weakest and frailest body.
Just my $0.02.
All the best,
Rachel

There are plenty of situations where I will have a real disadvantage, if my opponent is armed and I am empty-handed, if they are crazy or on drugs, or if they are a professional criminal, or simply more skilled than I am.

Wouldn't assuming yourself to be at a disadvantage in these situations be equally non productive?


Most of the men in my class are larger and stranger; they have no advantage over me. Perhaps I see an advantage over them in striking simply because it is one of my better skills, and because I've spent more time practicing, I am less afraid of being hit. When I see that they are afraid to get close to me and sometimes, they will even back away from me, then it's hard for me to see any advantage to being larger and stronger.

In a limited contact situation, I can understand this perception arising.

I agree with Rachel. Strength will only take you up to a point; after that good, solid technique will always win. Though I may not be at that level in my technique yet, it's what I strive for. I study Jinenkan martial arts, a form of kobudo, and one of the important teachers of the lineages was Takamatsu Sensei, and in pictures he looks like somebody could break him in half. Somehow, I don't imagine that was the case. Certainly I'm not going to be able to brute force knock somebody who's 6'3" 200# to the ground from a straight punch, but that wouldn't be good technique; good technique would be to punch him and catch him while he's off balance to throw a lock or some other technique to get him to the ground. Work smarter not harder and all.

And if you've ever had somebody lock your elbow or wrist, you know that most of the throwing is done by the person who's been locked- because your body's reflexes won't let you fight against that. My 30 pound cousin could throw me if she could apply the lock right; 30 pounds of pressure on a locked elbow is way too much.

And as Rachel said, the spirit aspect is super important as well. I'm not going to cringe when you punch me; will that make you cringe in return?

Lisa Coray

It's the "only so far" part that's an issue. All things being equal save size, the bigger person's going to have an physical advantage. Saying or pretending it's not there does not make it go away.

Wouldn't assuming yourself to be at a disadvantage in these situations be equally non productive?
I don't see it that way, because in my point of view, I am at a disadvantage. It's not an assumption, but a fact. Whereas assuming that I'm at a disadvantage because they are larger is just speculation, IMHO. I'd be crazy to think I was never at a disadvantage. A fight is rarely equally balanced except in sport competition. But I don't cede that someone has an advantage until it has been proven to me. If someone has a gun to my head, then I am at a disadvantage and I don't consider that an assumption, just a fact.
I don't know what you mean by "limited contact." We hit each other, we don't use pads or protective gear or mats. We don't knock each other senseless. We need to have training partners, not senseless bodies lying on the floor. We choose not to knock each other out because it's not necessary to the learning process. And it would take to long for everyone to wake up again and class is only a few hours, LOL!
I suppose you consider this limited contact but I am curious to know what is "full contact." Since we do not use mats, pads, or protective gear, we do have to make sure that students do not get injured. It benefits no one to have injuries become commonplace, and if that's what you mean by full contact, then it's far too dangerous for our school, we'd lose students if sustaining injuries was a requirement for training.
It's the "only so far" part that's an issue. All things being equal save size, the bigger person's going to have an physical advantage. Saying or pretending it's not there does not make it go away.
Yes, of course, that is only common sense. No one is disputing that. If all things are equal except size, then of course the bigger person will win. But that is a highly theoretical situation. Even when skill is equal, determination is not. The will to survive is a very strong factor.
No one is saying or pretending that it's not a fact, Marginal. This is the first time you have phrased it in this way, otherwise, we would not have had this discussion. My suspicion is that your superior skill and not your size gives you the advantage.
I am still interested to know what you mean by limited contact. If you've attended a Systema class and that's your perception, OK, but if you have not actually participated in Systema training, then you should reserve judgement until such time as you can try the training for yourself. My posts don't necessarily reflect the way the training really is.
All the best,
Rachel

I don't see it that way, because in my point of view, I am at a disadvantage. It's not an assumption, but a fact. Whereas assuming that I'm at a disadvantage because they are larger is just speculation, IMHO. I'd be crazy to think I was never at a disadvantage. A fight is rarely equally balanced except in sport competition. But I don't cede that someone has an advantage until it has been proven to me. If someone has a gun to my head, then I am at a disadvantage and I don't consider that an assumption, just a fact.

I think the central point of the disagreement here is, I'm disagreeing with the notion that the playing field is level. I'm not saying that you're up against an insurmountable obsticle if you conceed that the larger guy has a physical advantage. That's not my contention. Skill works up to a point as does size. Where on the spectrum one wins out over the other, is my main issue. I don't think if you toss in skill, then size vanishes as a consideration.

No one is saying or pretending that it's not a fact, Marginal. This is the first time you have phrased it in this way, otherwise, we would not have had this discussion.

My fault. I tend to come in from the corners in debates like this. Bad habit.

My suspicion is that your superior skill and not your size gives you the advantage.

It's certainly flattering to think so. Really though, it does give me options that a smaller/lighter opponent doesn't really have. Lighter folks have a harder time breaking through my guard, I have an easier time going through theirs etc. If we both throw a technically sound strike, and mine sends your head rocking back, and yours does not move mine, that's not necessarially a reflection of a disparity in skill.

I am still interested to know what you mean by limited contact. If you've attended a Systema class and that's your perception, OK, but if you have not actually participated in Systema training, then you should reserve judgement until such time as you can try the training for yourself. My posts don't necessarily reflect the way the training really is.


I mean limited contact in the sense that you're not hitting all out. (I've heard other systema people describe the contact as such.) If the strikes are being pulled, it's understandable. No point in pummeling your training partners. (I've said as much eariler in the thread in fact.) I'm just saying that when you do that, it can somewhat warp one's perceptions on how much strength can matter. If I'm sparring someone who's nearly half my bodyweight, I'm not going to kick them into a wall. That does not mean I'm physically incapable of doing so however. I know the lighter opponent can injure me if they hit me in a vulnerable spot with a solid technique, but I'm not concerned about being kicked into a wall, or being overpowered in those situations.

Put another way, in a match featurning a flyweight pro boxer vs a heavyweight pro boxer, it would be a steep climb for the flyweight, even if he was champion caliber fighter and the HW was a nobody. The HW can absorb more damage, and has to work less to inflict damage in such a case. I don't beleive any MA is capable of mooting the size discrepancy (with nothing to putty in the gap except skill) in such a case. If the FW wins, it'd be because he outfought the guy, and came up with a strategy to overcome the size difference. You wouldn't have to do that if the playing field was leveled because they're both strkers.

Oh, well, I think the MAs we practice are too different to compare in this way. Not sure who gave you the impression that Systema students pull their punches, but it is not true. I have had many black eyes to attest to the fact that punches are not pulled. No one has lost any teeth, but I do not believe it's accurate to say we pull our punches merely because we don't knock each other out. We train slowly most of the time, though occassionally fast, too. That is how we can hit each other full-on without knocking each other out. It takes a lot of courage to take the strikes. I've seen people freak out and lose it because their lip was a little bit bloodied, other people take a hard strike, go into the men's room to quietly vomit, and return to training without batting an eye. I'm not sure why you think Systema people pull their strikes, but I've seen very tough military men screaming and crying out because they were hit so hard. I've also seen people trembling in fear as they anticipate the next strike. Systema is a full contact martial art, IMHO.
I've probably made it sound very brutal, but it isn't. We usually train slowly, but some of the senior students can take a bit more. They have to be challenged in order to keep learning.
You say the heavyweight can absorb more damage, that is not true in my experience of working with 300 pound guys. Courage is what allows some people to keep fighting with injury and other people to give up at the first sight of blood. But I see now that because you believe the heavyweight can take more damage, the styles we practice are very different. There's nothing wrong with that. MT exists so we can all share our different perspectives. I just wanted to let you know that we do not pull our punches and if someone gave you that idea, I believe they were mistaken. The senior students in my class have deadly skills. Any one of them could kill me in a matter of seconds, and I daresay I could do the same to them. When you say we don't go "all out," I interpret that to mean that we don't kill each other. But I don't really know what "all out" means. To me, it's using maximum force, and in Systema, that would be lethal. We use the least possible force necessary to disable to threat or accomplish the task; for a civilian, that rarely means applying lethal force, but for a military person, that might be required. If we were to go "all out" on each other, there would be no one left with whom to train. We do not go "all out" and yet we're always covered with bruises, so in our class, at least, there is contact, maybe not "all out" but certainly no one is pulling their punches.
Like I said, it's a mistake to compare two such different martial arts since all martial arts serve different purposes and I make no judgements about a martial art I've never tried...I have only experience in Systema and can't remark about anything else.
All the best,
Rachel

I'm not sure why you think Systema people pull their strikes, but I've seen very tough military men screaming and crying out because they were hit so hard. I've also seen people trembling in fear as they anticipate the next strike. Systema is a full contact martial art, IMHO.

Limited contact is how it was described by another systema person on this forum. (Shrug) I've also read other accounts that make it sound like there's a lot of conditioning done by way of taking body shots. In my experience limited contact's usually a misnomer in actual practice regardless. ;)

Pulled punch to me means 'not hitting full out'.

I've probably made it sound very brutal, but it isn't. We usually train slowly, but some of the senior students can take a bit more. They have to be challenged in order to keep learning.
You say the heavyweight can absorb more damage, that is not true in my experience of working with 300 pound guys. Courage is what allows some people to keep fighting with injury and other people to give up at the first sight of blood. But I see now that because you believe the heavyweight can take more damage,

Physically speaking, he can. If someone's caving in when punched in the gut, it's time for them to start doing more work on their abs, re-examine their breathing techniques etc.

Like I said, it's a mistake to compare two such different martial arts since all martial arts serve different purposes and I make no judgements about a martial art I've never tried...I have only experience in Systema and can't remark about anything else.


It'd be interesting to see such theories tested against a local boxer... They train to take full out shots. I have a hard time beleiving they'd crumple simply because it was a systema person hitting them.

Boxers are always welcome in Systema class, as is anyone else who's interested in experiencing the training. There is no point theorizing about a boxers vs. Systema practitioner, who's to say what the outcome would be? The boxer trains to give and take strikes, so does the Systema student. Why speculate about an entirely theoretical situation, it's like asking who would win, King Kong or Godzilla? (the answer is Godzilla, of course).
As I mentioned, I feel our respective MAs are too different to continue this line of discussion. I'm not giving you the brush-off, but I have no response to your post. We disagree and that's all. But I say this amicably. So we disagree, not a big deal. If you're interested in Systema, try a class, if not, well, happy training to you.
All the best,
Rachel

As I mentioned, I feel our respective MAs are too different to continue this line of discussion. I'm not giving you the brush-off, but I have no response to your post.

No worries. I actually think we're not very far off in terms of viewpoint to be honest. It's simply how we respectively approach threat assessment in this case. Not a really a style issue at all. I think there's a measure of safety in paying attention to what strength/size can bring to the table. You think worrying about it is disarming yourself, and that whether or not the attacker's had MA training is a larger concern. I'm not as worried about what or how much training someone's had. Only so many ways to hit someone etc.

Despite those differences, neither of us think, "Oh, he's got 30 lbs on me. Therefore, I'm doomed." :)

As always there is something to be said for technique line...it takes intense practice and concentration that can only be learned from repeated practice...but standing on the side of the ring staring down your opponet is something else...nothing beats the adrenaline rush of scoring that first point or finally connecting a head shot

good topic.