Q an A

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Pakhet
Now now...he didn't corrupt us...YOU did :rofl:

Technicality Pakhet.
Wait until he tells you about grappling and kenpo and mirrors.
:eek:

I'm going to duck out of the room now. I'll come back in a few months when it might be safe.
:rofl:

[Pakhet]

Originally posted by cdhall
Technicality Pakhet.
Wait until he tells you about grappling and kenpo and mirrors.
:eek:



what *about* grappling and kenpo and mirrors???


or do I really not want to know?

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Pakhet
what *about* grappling and kenpo and mirrors???


or do I really not want to know?

You probably don't want to know.
:eek:
I didn't understand the grappling part very well when he tried to explain it to me.

I'm going to try to shut up before I get into trouble, but I'm sure I'll be back later and live to regret it.
:(

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by cdhall
I didn't understand the grappling part very well when he tried to explain it to me.

I found some difficulty trying to grapple a grappler. As I've stated before hand positioning and body positioning is an absolute must or it means the difference of winning or losing (at least that's my view).

[Seig]

This is something that I have been thinking about and have not come to a satisfactory conclusion. In Kenpo, we do a lot of double factoring. If you have someone who is impaired on one side, is there some way to compensate for that? What would the ramifications be?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Seig
This is something that I have been thinking about and have not come to a satisfactory conclusion. In Kenpo, we do a lot of double factoring. If you have someone who is impaired on one side, is there some way to compensate for that? What would the ramifications be?


As an example.............I have a student that only has the use of only one arm (left). It was a situation from birth. There is no way to strengthen the "weak" or in his, case the "right" arm, which is virtually useless.

So .......... what do you do?..... well ...... what can you do.... give him another arm......NO...... so

You work the "good" arm overtime. LOL........ since the one arm is unable to operate or function ...... you then must use Mr. Parker's "tailoring" tool :) To show you the compensations would be the only way to explain each technique and we can't do that here .... it would take volumes. So you'll have to ask me when you see me........ LOL

:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Seig
This is something that I have been thinking about and have not come to a satisfactory conclusion. In Kenpo, we do a lot of double factoring. If you have someone who is impaired on one side, is there some way to compensate for that? What would the ramifications be?

I don't want to pretend to have a better answer than Mr. C but perhaps my observation will lead to another question or answer.

If a Double-Factor is essentially a double-block like when you change angles in Short 1, then 50% of the reason to do it is for margin of error.

If you can not Double-Factor then you can still execute the primary block, parry or maneuver right?

So all that happens when you can not Double-Factor is you lose some margin of error.

As Mr. Liles demonstrated to us at camp once, Bruce Lee's attitude toward blocking a punch was to "hit first" because blocks are a waste of time. This is why most of our blocks are strikes anyway right?

So if someone can not Double-factor then they focus more on being quicker, angling, and hitting more precisely, correct?

I don't see this as anything to compensate "for." I see having only one arm as a situation that is sort of already accounted for in a Double-Factor which is really just insurance in the first place.

I hope that makes sense.

[jfarnsworth]

The double factor doesn't necessarily always mean to double block. It can be many different things at the same time. Obviously this is Mr. C's thread and he probably has a different/better answer than I but what I've seen and been taught there are others relating to the double factor.:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Sorry CD, for not responding sooner, but was side tracked with the care of my mother and all that was going on at home for the past 2 months....... back on track now.........


Originally posted by cdhall
If a Double-Factor is essentially a double-block like when you change angles in Short 1, then 50% of the reason to do it is for margin of error.


It is NOT essentially a double block. It can be for many things.... in short one for example.... you have just completed the 1st block, as you step back for the next movement........ a couple of uses are; to cover or protect your centerline, as well as to position for opposing forces (in this case the hands do not cross). I don't understand what you are referring as "margin for error" in this case.


Originally posted by cdhall
If you can not Double-Factor then you can still execute the primary block, parry or maneuver right?


Yes


Originally posted by cdhall
So all that happens when you can not Double-Factor is you lose some margin of error.


NO


Originally posted by cdhall
As Mr. Liles demonstrated to us at camp once, Bruce Lee's attitude toward blocking a punch was to "hit first" because blocks are a waste of time. This is why most of our blocks are strikes anyway right?


Nope, only one view point or reason.


Originally posted by cdhall
So if someone can not Double-factor then they focus more on being quicker, angling, and hitting more precisely, correct?


Nope again, you should do all of those anyway!


Originally posted by cdhall
I don't see this as anything to compensate "for." I see having only one arm as a situation that is sort of already accounted for in a Double-Factor which is really just insurance in the first place.


If you say so.


Originally posted by cdhall
I hope this makes sense.


Not to me, but then again ...... I'm not your instructor. :)

Hang in there. The system is broader than you realize.

:asian:

[brianhunter]

Mr. C,
If this is still open as a Q and A, I had a couple of questions, I know youve explained why and when Tiger Crane came and went to me before, What about Book Set? When was it included in the curriculum and why? Why was it later removed? What did it teach?
Where does 2 man set have its origins? how did it manage to stay in most curriculums? What are some of the principles and things to be learned from it?

Brian Hunter

[Goldendragon7]

Brian, of course it is still an open Q & A for me. Ask away!!:asian:


Originally posted by brianhunter
You've explained why and when Tiger Crane came and went to me before, What about Book Set?
Brian Hunter

Same reason. It was not an Ed Parker set to begin with. At that time period there was an apparent need for more forms, sets, or training drills..... so "viola" a couple of interesting "drills" were utilized temporarily until more of "our own" unique forms took place.


Originally posted by brianhunter
When was it included in the curriculum and why? Why was it later removed? What did it teach?
Brian Hunter

Early 60's ~ added as an additional drill until more "Ed Parker sets or Forms were finalized" It was removed when it no longer was needed as Ed Parker added "his own" forms (early 70's), however, it can still be utilized as an option for fun. Like all forms it taught or had several uses. Coordination, stances, power, body alignment, discipline, footwork, etc. etc..


Originally posted by brianhunter
Where does 2 man set have its origins? how did it manage to stay in most curriculums? What are some of the principles and things to be learned from it?
Brian Hunter

Early 60's. It is a formal pre-arranged exercise much like a technique line but choreographed for 2 people. Strike ~ Block.... Strike ~ Block through out the set. It stayed because it was an Ed Parker set.

It teaches..........
1. How to increase your visualization processes in your previous
forms.
2. It builds an esprit de corps between two practitioners.
3. Synchronization of movement and timing between two
individuals.
4. Capitalizes on body maneuvers and positions.
5. Whatever angle your opponent chooses as a defense you
may choose as an offense, and vice-versa.
6. The flow from defensive moves to offensive moves or vice-
versa.
7. The application of rotational momentum combined with
Marriage of Gravity while defending.
8. The advantageous use of angle changes to ride the force of
your opponent's attacks.
9. Upper and Lower Case positional checks.
10. Use of specialized weapons.
11. Control Manipulation to enhance the effects of opposing
forces.
12. Sliding checks combined with offensive moves.
13. Specialized blocks that are normally thought of as strikes.
14. Residual action combining the flow from a block into a strike.
15. Reinforces the importance of gauging distance and how it will
effect the timing and choice of movements.
16. The prolonged application of continuous movement.
17. Reinforces the importance of being able to defend and/or
attack from the inside, outside, above, or below your
opponent's weapons.
18. Stresses the value of understanding the Second Point of
View.
19. The importance of continual transition, and the exercising of
its use.
20. others.........

:asian:

[cdhall]

Thank you, Mr. C. I called twice. I'm sure you got the messages. I hope all is better now that you are back.

My question then is "What is a Double Factor" and "What/where are 1-2 examples of it?"

Thank you.
:asian:

[Michael Billings]

This is still my favorite thread. Where else can I get so much knowledge for the cost. I value it more than you think.

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

[Klondike93]

Brian Hunter sig - 2 fish swim into a concrete wall, the first fish turns to the other and says "Dam!"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:confused:

Klondike

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
This is still my favorite thread. Where else can I get so much knowledge for the cost. I value it more than you think.-Michael


LOL, Thanks. I am considering a pay per ask format.....:rofl:

:asian:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
LOL, Thanks. I am considering a pay per ask format.....:rofl:

:asian:

Set up a paypal account!! I know a few who would be glad to donate! Ive learned a lot from you!

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
My question is "What is a Double Factor"?


It entails utilizing duel movements to defend yourself. These moves can incorporate any combinations of blocks, parries, and checks. It ALSO refers to sophisticated moves that are dually defensive and offensive and "reverse motion" is an integral part.


Originally posted by cdhall
"What/where are 1-2 examples of it?"


As discussed before..... in short form 1, for example.... you have just completed the 1st block, as you step back for the next movement........ a couple of uses are; to cover or protect your centerline, as well as to position for opposing forces (in this case the hands do not cross). However, during the next move, you step back with your right foot as you cover with the right hand (positional check), when you pivot (clockwise) and deliver a left inward block the right hand drops down to cover the groin as it returns on its path back to the cocked position at your side. During this same execution an additional double factor is that it is in sync with the inward block which creates a stronger block through the gain of opposing forces.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Set up a paypal account!! I know a few who would be glad to donate! Ive learned a lot from you!


I beat you to it. LOL It is already set up:D

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I beat you to it. LOL It is already set up:D

:asian:

Great, another WWE Vince McMahon!;)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Great, another WWE Vince McMahon!;)

Well Vince isn't the only one who can build a multi-billion dollar establishment.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Great, another WWE Vince McMahon!;)


We could only wish!

:D

[Michael Billings]

Vince McDragon - paypal, where??

-Michael

[Kenpomachine]

I've heard about a set called Tiger breathing as being similar to what we call in spanish "Tigre en tensión".
What does it look like?
Where does it come from?
I have a version for the origin of the spanish form, but I have never heard before of Tiger breathing .

Thanks

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I've heard about a set called Tiger breathing as being similar to what we call in spanish "Tigre en tensión".
What does it look like? Where does it come from? I have a version for the origin of the spanish form, but I have never heard before of Tiger breathing . Thanks


I have no idea what you are talking about.

Nothing like that in Ed Parker's American Kenpo!

:asian:

[Kenpomachine]

Feeling relieved for not being the only one not having heard of it :)
The spanish form was made by Raúl Gutiérrez for his Kenpo Fushi, by the latest account :D

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Feeling relieved for not being the only one not having heard of it :) The spanish form was made by Raúl Gutiérrez for his Kenpo Fushi, by the latest account :D


I would be interested in looking at what he did.

:)

[Kenpomachine]

You can see the beginning at http://www.kenporosales.com/fuenteretiro.htm

If you're very interested in the description, I'll write it down, but I'll need some time...

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
If you're interested in the description, I'll write it down, but I'll need some time...

That would be great. Just email me when you have it finished.

:D

[ikenpo]

Mr. C,

On captured leaves I've noticed that, like every other technique, there are several variations that exist in the way this technique is done by various instructors. The 2 variations that seem to be most prominent are the one using a chop to release the finger lock that then orbits around into the first elbow strike, the other is the one that regrabs the attackers fingers after manipulating their grabbing arms position.

Can you give me some background on those 2 variations as they relate to SGM Parker? Which did he prefer, which did he come up with first, was there a switch that made people do one vs the other?

Thanks in advance, jb

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. C, On captured leaves I've noticed that, like every other technique, there are several variations that exist in the way this technique is done by various instructors. The 2 variations that seem to be most prominent are the one using a chop to release the finger lock that then orbits around into the first elbow strike, the other is the one that re-grabs the attackers fingers after manipulating their grabbing arms position.

Can you give me some background on those 2 variations as they relate to SGM Parker? Which did he prefer, which did he come up with first, was there a switch that made people do one vs. the other?
Thanks in advance, jb


I don't know of any other variations than the one he showed me (which is below). My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques (thus several versions out there) that we have for a number of reasons. In the beginning I didn't like the darn thing until he showed me how the mechanics worked and why, now, it is one of my favorites.


CAPTURED LEAVES (Right flank finger lock)

1. With the fingers of your right hand twisted by your opponent's left hand from your right flank, raise your right hand high (toward 1:30) to relieve the pressure (have your left hand positionally check your opponent's right hand and arm in the process), as you move your right foot slightly to your right (toward 1:30).

2. While in place, pivot counterclockwise into a horse stance (facing between 8 and 9 o'clock) and deliver a left back elbow strike (from the last checking position) to the back of your opponent's left kidney. (Your opponent is on the tips of his toes, and his body is turning clockwise to his right.)

3. Immediately pivot clockwise into a right neutral bow stance, and deliver a right back elbow strike to the front of your opponent's left ribcage as your left hand now grabs and controls your opponent's left arm at the wrist. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist.)

4. Right front crossover and cover between 8 and 9 o'clock.

Is this the way you do it?

:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Is this the way you do it?

:asian:
Yep:D

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Seig
Yep:D

What's that huge kissing sound?.......oh, nevermind...:rofl:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Is this the way you do it?

Yep same here. That's way I was shown how it's done by my current instructor, but I was first shown the way JB described it.

:asian:

Klondike (aka Chuck)

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I don't know of any other variations than the one he showed me (which is below). My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques (thus several versions out there) that we have for a number of reasons. In the beginning I didn't like the darn thing until he showed me how the mechanics worked and why, now, it is one of my favorites.


CAPTURED LEAVES (Right flank finger lock)

1. With the fingers of your right hand twisted by your opponent's left hand from your right flank, raise your right hand high (toward 1:30) to relieve the pressure (have your left hand positionally check your opponent's right hand and arm in the process), as you move your right foot slightly to your right (toward 1:30).

2. While in place, pivot counterclockwise into a horse stance (facing between 8 and 9 o'clock) and deliver a left back elbow strike (from the last checking position) to the back of your opponent's left kidney. (Your opponent is on the tips of his toes, and his body is turning clockwise to his right.)

3. Immediately pivot clockwise into a right neutral bow stance, and deliver a right back elbow strike to the front of your opponent's left ribcage as your left hand now grabs and controls your opponent's left arm at the wrist. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist.)

4. Right front crossover and cover between 8 and 9 o'clock.

Is this the way you do it?

:asian:

I've seen and done it both ways.... at 1) you don't mention anything about grabbing the attacker's fingers after you have "relieve the pressure". Is this a given and therefore unwritten?

"My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques "

Why would you say that? Has this been your experience in general? What other techniques would you classify like this?

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
You don't mention anything about grabbing the attacker's fingers after you have "relieve the pressure". Is this a given and therefore unwritten?
jb:asian:

No, I don't counter grab I finish with the 2 elbow strikes and get the hell out of Dodge.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
"My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques " Why would you say that? Has this been your experience in general?
jb:asian:

I say that because it is one of the many techniques that I have found many to have particular trouble with. Yes, it has been my experience.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
What other techniques would you classify like this?
jb:asian:

Oh, there are several.......... Dance of Death, Gift of Destiny, Broken Ram, Blinding Sacrifice, Dominating Circles ... just to name a few.

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
No, I don't counter grab I finish with the 2 elbow strikes and get the hell out of Dodge.

2. While in place, pivot counterclockwise into a horse stance (facing between 8 and 9 o'clock) and deliver a left back elbow strike (from the last checking position) to the back of your opponent's left kidney. (Your opponent is on the tips of his toes, and his body is turning clockwise to his right.)

:asian:

Without grabbing their fingers how do you ensure that they will "be on their toes", couldn't they just let your fingers go once you've stepped to 1:30 or does your control manipulation of their arm preclude them from releasing your fingers and getting out of the way of your elbow? Also before the second elbow strike you grab with the left hand. If you don't maintain any control through grabbing with your fingers how do you maintain adhesion, once again is this through the manipulation and the speed at which the technique is executed?

Respectfully, jb :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

LOL, first off this is a public forum, not a private lesson. If you want this much detailed info you should ask your instructor first and then arrange a private with me. I love to answer questions until it gets to the point of detailed "how to". If I were to continue............ you may as well start at the beginning and ask about the 1st technique and continue through the entire system so that I share with everyone my detailed explinations.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
Without grabbing their fingers how do you ensure that they will "be on their toes". Respectfully, jb :asian:


These techniques are only ideas..... or drills..... you NEVER insure anything. In the "ideal phase" we do assume that the technique works as taught and the opponent reacts as we intend. During the "what if phase" we examine many, many different possibilities.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
Couldn't they just let your fingers go once you've stepped to 1:30
Respectfully, jb :asian:


Yes they could, that IS a possibility.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
Does your control manipulation of their arm preclude them from releasing your fingers and getting out of the way of your elbow?
Respectfully, jb :asian:


It can as well.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
Also before the second elbow strike you grab with the left hand. If you don't maintain any control through grabbing with your fingers how do you maintain adhesion, once again is this through the manipulation and the speed at which the technique is executed? Respectfully, jb :asian:


Yes, you answered your own question! :D

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
LOL, first off this is a public forum, not a private lesson. If you want this much detailed info you should ask your instructor first and then arrange a private with me. I love to answer questions until it gets to the point of detailed "how to". If I were to continue............ you may as well start at the beginning and ask about the 1st technique and continue through the entire system so that I share with everyone my detailed explinations.
:asian:

ouch....there's a way to scare off future questions...:D





just kidding, no problem, all is good and the weekend is here.

jb:cool:

[Seig]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
What's that huge kissing sound?.......oh, nevermind...:rofl:
Yer just jealous 'cause he taught it to me.:2xbird::rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Seig
Yer just jealous 'cause he taught it to me.:2xbird::rofl:

Now, now....... dont be mean!

:mad:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Seig
Yer just jealous 'cause he taught it to me.:2xbird::rofl:

uh, yeah that's it.....I'm jealous of you...:)


and in the interest of maturity, good taste and respect for Mr. C I'll leave it at that.

j "mouse hands" b :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
uh, hee hee.... He doesn't realize how long I've known Gd7 and all the other secrets I've got from him......... j "mouse hands" b :asian:

hee hee...... well, don't tell him.:rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ben22
I have always been curious about the extensions.
I like to document what principles i learn and where they occur in the curriculum. Id like to know the names of the new principles found in the extensions?

I'm not looking for explanations of the new principles, just there labels. (ex. economy of motion, point of origin, black dot focus)


In the back of the Infinite Insights you will find a glossary filled with terms that are used throughout the system. Also the Encyclopedia of Kenpo will be extremely useful in that quest.

If you are working on the extensions you are certainly at a level of training that you can list the principles of each move of your self-defense techniques. Do not omit this work. In accounting for the principles of each of these extensions you may: find their association to previous movements and sequences, discover new principles, and lay a better foundation for new material.

My students that take private or group lessons or individuals that attend any of my Seminars are a source of information, as well as my advanced Kenpo manuals which have much of the material that you seek, however I reserve that for my IKKO members.

A sample of what I am refering to......

Take "CLUTCHING FEATHERS" for instance....

1. FIRST MOVE

1. Point of Origin
2. Depth of Action
........a. Create Distance
3. Body Rotation
........a. Width change
b. Clockwise/counter clockwise
4. Minimize Target
5. Pinning Check
........a. Anchor Elbow
6. Angle of Disturbance
7. Angle of Cancellation
8. Stabilize Your Base
........a. Keep knees flexible
........b. Settle
..............a. Height
9. Body Alignment
10. Back-Up Mass
11. Angle of Execution
12. Counter Manipulation
13. Contouring
........a. Fitting
........b. Pin Point Effect
14. Angle of Incidence
15. Path of action
16. Breathing
17. Others

2. SECOND MOVE

1. Angle of Delivery
2. Depth of Action
........a. Decrease Distance
3. Body Momentum
........a. Rotational
b. Vertical/Diagonal
........c. Forward
4. Maximize Width of Action
5. Angle of Execution
........a. Block - UP THE CIRCLE
........b. Heel Palm
6. Body Alignment
7. Back-Up Mass
8. With
9. Borrowed Force
10. Bracing Angle
........a. Forward Bow
11. Defensive - Offense
a. Lock Out

12. etc. etc.

I think you get the idea.

:asian:

[MartialArtsGuy]

Thank you Mr. C

Im going to have to get the Encyclopedia, i think it would help me alot. Does the encyclopedia list where the principles are first introduced.

That way i have a way to gage what is from where and how they relate to each other in terms of what is more advanced material.

Thanks again
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ben22
Does the encyclopedia list where the principles are first introduced.

That way I have a way to gage what is from where and how they relate to each other in terms of what is more advanced material.


The Encyclopedia will be of great help. No it does not tell exactly where each principle occurs in any given technique, you will have to research and study that on your own. :)

As far as gauging what is from where - and what is considered advanced material goes, the principles occur in all the techniques. Some contain different or specific ones than others and yet some are present in ALL techniques (i.e., point of origin), but as your knowledge grows, you will understand the difference between embryonic material that is taught in the lower ranks and the sophisticated material that develops as you progress thru the ranks.

Often times it is your maturity and understanding in the art that is the difference as your knowledge and skills increase not a particular technique, form, set or belt level that exposes such material.

:asian:

[MartialArtsGuy]

I see what you are saying Mr. C

Thanks for the help, That last sentence in your last post helps to put things into perspective.
Your guidance on this matter is valued and appriciated.

In light of all this, would i be correct to say that the extensions are a more mature expression of what has already been learned, desiqned to help a kenpoists express motion and the principles in a more individualized manner, which is free of the initial structured training method. I do notice some more elaborate foot work, methods of closing the distance, and a few other goodies?

Damn i hope that made sense, im reading it now and im not sure if it does.

:cool:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Ben22
I see what you are saying Mr. C



In light of all this, would i be correct to say that the extensions are a more mature expression of what has already been learned, desiqned to help a kenpoists express motion and the principles in a more individualized manner, which is free of the initial structured training method. I do notice some more elaborate foot work, methods of closing the distance, and a few other goodies?

Damn i hope that made sense, im reading it now and im not sure if it does.

:cool:


The extensions can also be considered "what ifs", grafting methods. There is also a built in timing, regulating, and monitoring aspect in them as well as dimensional striking.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[MartialArtsGuy]

Thanx for the extra info clyde, dont hesitate to lend a helping hand in the future. :asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Ben22
Thanx for the extra info clyde, dont hesitate to lend a helping hand in the future. :asian:

Ahhhhh, all it gets me is trouble when I do, but thanks.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[kenpochip]

Mr. C,

Do you think that there is a "special" degree of black belt at
which the degree holder's rank makes (or SHOULD make) them a sort of trans-organizational resource in the kenpo world?

For example, at Nth degree, should high-ranking individuals from other organizations be brought in to confirm the individual's entitlement to wear that Nth degree, as opposed to a single organization's bestowing of that rank? There may be other implications of this "special" trans-organizational recognition, but I haven't thought through all of them.

If you agree with this concept, what, in your mind, is that Nth degree?


Thanks,

KenpoChip

[lodestone]

I am curious to know more about Jim Mitchell.

On another thread there was talk about his influence on the yellow belt techniques, in reference to Alternating Maces. What was his involvement with the development of the system as we know it?

I know he split from Mr. Parker in the early 80's (around 82 or 83, I believe). Supposedly he was running several of Parker's schools in the San Diego area.

Another point: He is listed as one of the very few kenpoists to have the, *ahem*, cajones(?) to wear a 10th degree belt. I was told that the belt he wears was left to him by Mr. Parker after his passing. Why has he disappeared? Why does it appear like he is "hiding" or in "exile"? I know there were some personal differences among other kenpo leaders, but I haven't the slightest clue as to what. Ego? or Kenpological differences?

I am doing my Black Belt thesis on the comparison and contrast of the different arrangements of the system, i.e. 24 techs, 16. I originally studied Jim Mitchell's arrangement of the system, which is more Form based than the others. (Techniques on a particular list reflect greatly the Form associated with that belt)

Well, if there are any answers to these questions, I would extremely greatful.

Thanks,
Matt

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by lodestone
Another point: He is listed as one of the very few kenpoists to have the, *ahem*, cajones(?) to wear a 10th degree belt.

It's cojones :) And if I'm to wear in a long away future a 10th degree belt, I'll surely not have them :rofl: :lol::p :rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpochip
Mr. C, Do you think that there is a "special" degree of black belt at which the degree holder's rank makes (or SHOULD make) them a sort of trans-organizational resource in the kenpo world?
Thanks, KenpoChip

Not really but it would be nice to see a less fragmented system.


Originally posted by kenpochip
For example, at Nth degree, should high-ranking individuals from other organizations be brought in to confirm the individual's entitlement to wear that Nth degree,
Thanks, KenpoChip

This would be very hard to do since many have different agendas and opinions on what they teach. Again it would be great to be able to work together within various organizations.


Originally posted by kenpochip
What do you think about a single organization's bestowing of that rank i.e., (10th Degree)?
Thanks, KenpoChip

I think it lends much more credibility to the individual if his/her peers all get together and award that high of degree than just the students and followers of said organization.


Originally posted by kenpochip
If you agree with this concept, what, in your mind, is that Nth degree?
Thanks, KenpoChip

Like I already stated... I don't think this is a difficult issue but, if it were I believe that 9ths and 10ths would be the appropriate positions of higher communication and exchange between organizations which from their examples would trickle down to the masses and create a much better environment of unity than we have at this point.

But that's just my opinion.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by lodestone
I am curious to know more about Jim Mitchell. On another thread there was talk about his influence on the yellow belt techniques, in reference to Alternating Maces. What was his involvement with the development of the system as we know it?
Thanks, Matt

From what I saw, he was of some help in the early 80's to Mr. Parker until he left the organization. Mr. Parker was at that time starting to organize better the curriculums and he just happened to be there at that time. I was involved as well as Skip Hancock and others during this period. I was there during one of his lessons once and from what I saw he was still learning the system. What ever his involvement was, usual Mr. Parker would run it by several others for opinions and critique as well.


Originally posted by lodestone
I know he split from Mr. Parker in the early 80's (around 82 or 83, I believe). Supposedly he was running several of Parker's schools in the San Diego area.
Thanks, Matt

His background was in the Tracy system then he converted back to the original Ed Parker System, he was in San Diego at this time, and would drive up for lessons, to my knowledge he was not running several of Mr. Parkers studios, but was only in control his own.


Originally posted by lodestone
Another point: He is listed as one of the very few kenpoists to have the, *ahem*, cajones(?) to wear a 10th degree belt.
Thanks, Matt

Well, I don't know about "cojones" lol, but he did leave Mr. Parker and go back to Tracy and get promoted up there, until he strapped on the 10th Degree, he only appears on my list of 10ths (just as everyone else that has decided to wear this rank) only to list those that "claim" that rank. It is in way a validation from me or anyone else but rather a listing of what they have decided to wear.


Originally posted by lodestone
I was told that the belt he wears was left to him by Mr. Parker after his passing.
Matt

He had a nice belt made for Mr. Parker when he was studying with him. It is my understanding that after Mr. Parker died, he went to Mrs. Parker and asked for that belt back, and as I understand it .......... she gave him back the belt that he had made for Mr. Parker originally.


Originally posted by lodestone
Why has he disappeared? Why does it appear like he is "hiding" or in "exile"? I know there were some personal differences among other kenpo leaders, but I haven't the slightest clue as to what. Ego? or Kenpological differences?
Thanks, Matt

After he left Mr. Parker, I have heard very little from him...... Who knows why he is like you said "hiding" or in "exile" lol you'll have to find him and ask him direct .......... I'm sure there are many that would like to know where he is.


Originally posted by lodestone
I am doing my Black Belt thesis on the comparison and contrast of the different arrangements of the system, i.e. 24 techs, 16. I originally studied Jim Mitchell's arrangement of the system, which is more Form based than the others. (Techniques on a particular list reflect greatly the Form associated with that belt)
Thanks, Matt

I don't know exactly when you studied with him or what "arrangements" you were taught, so I can't comment. If you studied with him after he left Mr. Parker, the arrangements, that you were taught are very possibly different than the ones that Mr. Parker arranged.

:asian:

[lodestone]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


Well, I don't know about "cojones" lol, but he did leave Mr. Parker and go back to Tracy and get promoted up there, until he strapped on the 10th Degree, he only appears on my list of 10ths (just as everyone else that has decided to wear this rank) only to list those that "claim" that rank. It is in way a validation from me or anyone else but rather a listing of what they have decided to wear.



He had a nice belt made for Mr. Parker when he was studying with him. It is my understanding that after Mr. Parker died, he went to Mrs. Parker and asked for that belt back, and as I understand it .......... she gave him back the belt that he had made for Mr. Parker originally.


Wow... That is *very* interesting...






I don't know exactly when you studied with him or what "arrangements" you were taught, so I can't comment. If you studied with him after he left Mr. Parker, the arrangements, that you were taught are very possibly different than the ones that Mr. Parker arranged.



The system had 16 techniques per belt all the way through 1st Black. 2nd Black had 32 techniques.

The order of the techniques was also different than the traditional EPAK system. They were moved around quiet a bit.

Do you know of anyone else that may have background info about Mitchell? Supposedly he (Mitchell) continued to train with Parker up until his death. I do know he was at the very least, still in contact with Mr. Parker after he left the IKKA.

I've heard lots of rumors and whispers, but I would like to hear first hand accounts.

Oh, and you mentioned something about witnessing a lesson that Mitchell had from Parker. Do you say he was still learning the system because he was being taught a completely new technique? I was curious because I am always learning the system; there's always more to learn!

[Kirk]

Originally posted by lodestone
Wow... That is *very* interesting...





The system had 16 techniques per belt all the way through 1st Black. 2nd Black had 32 techniques.

The order of the techniques was also different than the traditional EPAK system. They were moved around quiet a bit.

Do you know of anyone else that may have background info about Mitchell? Supposedly he (Mitchell) continued to train with Parker up until his death. I do know he was at the very least, still in contact with Mr. Parker after he left the IKKA.

I've heard lots of rumors and whispers, but I would like to hear first hand accounts.

Oh, and you mentioned something about witnessing a lesson that Mitchell had from Parker. Do you say he was still learning the system because he was being taught a completely new technique? I was curious because I am always learning the system; there's always more to learn!

You might want to try the forum on www.kenponet.com ... a lot
more seniors post there, than here.

[kenpochip]

Mr. C. ,

thanks for your reply.

KenpoChip

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by lodestone
Wow... That is *very* interesting...


I find the truth unique to say the least. :)


Originally posted by lodestone
The system had 16 techniques per belt all the way through 1st Black. 2nd Black had 32 techniques. The order of the techniques was also different than the traditional EPAK system. They were moved around quiet a bit.


Go to my website ............ http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/requirements.htm
and view the curriculum...... if it is different than that ....... it was not Ed Parker's doing. My curriculum that is posted was ok'd by the Kahuna!


Originally posted by lodestone
Do you know of anyone else that may have background info about Mitchell?


Sure, there are plenty that know about Mitchell, Chape'l, Hancock, Trejo, Kelly, and a host of others.


Originally posted by lodestone
Supposedly he (Mitchell) continued to train with Parker up until his death. I do know he was at the very least, still in contact with Mr. Parker after he left the IKKA.


I highly doubt that he "trained" with Mr. Parker after he "left" the IKKA, keeping in contact is another issue, Mr. Parker always liked to keep in "contact" with everyone - friend and foe alike!


Originally posted by lodestone
Oh, and you mentioned witnessing a lesson that Mitchell had from Parker. Do you say he was still learning the system because he was being taught a completely new technique? I was curious because I am always learning the system; there's always more to learn!

Yes, he and I were debating several issues on techniques and/or forms (Bruce Tomson my student, at the time was also present), in which he was greatly in need of correction.:)

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpochip
Mr. C. , thanks for your reply. KenpoChip



Your welcome!! anytime.

:asian:

[lodestone]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I find the truth unique to say the least. :)

As do I!



Yes, he and I were debating several issues on techniques and/or forms (Bruce Tomson my student, at the time was also present), in which he was greatly in need of correction.:)


I don't suppose you can recall the situation. I guess this whole thing makes me question the validity of my kenpo. Is what I learned not valid EPAK? The arrangement of the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell. In Mr. Mitchell's defense, the kenpo I have learned is amazingly accurate, i.e. it matches, or varies only slightly, what I see on the rest of the Net.

[jazkiljok]

Besides yourself obviously, what other well known Senior and currently high ranking American Kenpoists were still studying consistently with Mr. Parker towards the end of his life?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by lodestone
I don't suppose you can recall the situation.


Of course I recall the situation! He was crossing over from the Tracy system and did not know all of Ed Parkers details on the system like the rest of us that are always learning. If you are asking did he know the Ed Parker System or not well all I can say is that he knew it as well as HE knew it, not like Ed Parker knew it or anyone else. I don't know all of what he learned only what I personally debated with him on.


Originally posted by lodestone
I guess this whole thing makes me question the validity of my kenpo.


I understand your position. You learned what he taught you, whatever that was. Comparing with other credible Ed Parker Students of the same era, will reveal just how close he taught or didn't teach to what others learned from Ed Parker.


Originally posted by lodestone
Is what I learned not valid EPAK?


I don't know..... is it? I would have to look at what you have learned to tell. If the principles are present, the skill, quality of movement, and knowledge is there, then it would be deemed good Kenpo to me I would reason. What I do know is that you learned Kenpo from one... Jim Mitchell, what all he taught you .... who knows?


Originally posted by lodestone
The arrangement of the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell.


Ok, that must tell you something then. Even if it is the same material, HE rearranged it to suit himself and/or his group.


Originally posted by lodestone
In Mr. Mitchell's defense, the kenpo I have learned is amazingly accurate, i.e. it matches, or varies only slightly, what I see on the rest of the Net.


I am not attacking Mitchell, I am only answering your questions. If you know the answers then why ask. Earlier you stated that, and I quote "the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell" unquote.

You must be trying to trick me....... :erg: Well, it didn't work ..... did it......:rofl:

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jazkiljok
Besides yourself obviously, what other well known Senior and currently high ranking American Kenpoists were still studying consistently with Mr. Parker towards the end of his life?


I am not aware of "ALL" that were stydying with Mr. Parker at the time of his death but some of them were.......
Skip Hancock
Paul Mills
Brian Duffy
Tom Kelly
Joe Palanzo
Bryan Hawkins
Jeff Speakman
Barbara Hale
Ron Chape'l
Gilbert Velez
Doreen Cogliandro
Flores Brothers
and I'm sure I left off others, its late.

:asian:

[lodestone]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I understand your position. You learned what he taught you, whatever that was. Comparing with other credible Ed Parker Students of the same era, will reveal just how close he taught or didn't teach to what others learned from Ed Parker.



I don't know..... is it? I would have to look at what you have learned to tell. If the principles are present, the skill, quality of movement, and knowledge is there, then it would be deemed good Kenpo to me I would reason. What I do know is that you learned Kenpo from one... Jim Mitchell, what all he taught you .... who knows?



Ok, that must tell you something then. Even if it is the same material, HE rearranged it to suit himself and/or his group.


I am not attacking Mitchell, I am only answering your questions. If you know the answers then why ask. Earlier you stated that, and I quote "the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell" unquote.


You must be trying to trick me....... :erg: Well, it didn't work ..... did it......:rofl:



I didn't know the answers! :D The difference I was refering to was in the order of the techniques. I still received excellent instruction in the concepts and theories of Parker Kenpo. Just his point of view, I suppose, on the ordering of the techniques.

I am truly sorry if my comments or questions came across as inflamatory. I assure you, my intentions were innocuous. I think you have been extraordinarily helpful and forthcoming. Thank you.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by lodestone
The difference I was referring to was in the order of the techniques.


Ahhhhh, now how did I miss that. Darn...... sorry.:(


Originally posted by lodestone
I still received excellent instruction in the concepts and theories of Parker Kenpo.


Well, I certainly hope so! There is always some good in everything, besides there is soooooooo much in print now that you can pick up much just from Mr. Parkers Books (which by the way is the main source of many Instructors that never met Mr. Parker or trained with any of his personal students).


Originally posted by lodestone
Just his point of view, I suppose, on the ordering of the techniques.


Since he started his own organization, I'm sure he rearranged the techniques to fit his own opinion on just "where" they should be (which in itself, would not hamper the system at all). Nearly every person that has started their own association has done this from their perspectives and personal "era" of Kenpo knowledge.

Many have "deleted" specific techniques, forms, sets, drills, sayings, pledges, etc. to suit their own needs (personally I feel that all the material was developed for a purpose and not to have it available is decreasing the overall "profile" of the systems knowledge base).


Originally posted by lodestone
I am truly sorry if my comments or questions came across as inflammatory. I assure you, my intentions were innocuous. I think you have been extraordinarily helpful and forthcoming. Thank you.


No, need to apologize, I didn't take it personally, thus the funny faces. I know you were just interested in a different opinion. I try to keep the history as close to reality as possible. I find that with time, some stories get diluted or warped .....LOL...... so the best way of retaining the truth is to talk about it to many.

Thanks for your questions!
:asian:

[Michael Billings]

I had one of Mr. Mitchell's 3rd Degree Black's studying with me in the early 90's. He knew the techniques, but they were devoid of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories ... or maybe he was just up on them.

Boy, but could he fight!!!!

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

[lodestone]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I had one of Mr. Mitchell's 3rd Degree Black's studying with me in the early 90's. He knew the techniques, but they were devoid of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories ... or maybe he was just up on them.

Boy, but could he fight!!!!

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

So, he was lacking an understanding of concepts like zone of sanctuary, strong-line weak-line, reverse marriage of gravity, angle of incidence, etc.?

It blows my mind to think someone could learn the techniques without understanding the concepts!

That's like not knowing the names of basics, as far as I'm concerned!!

.

[Michael Billings]

:rofl:
Whoops, I said:

I had one of Mr. Mitchell's 3rd Degree Black's studying with me in the early 90's. He knew the techniques, but they were devoid of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories ... or maybe he was just up on them.
I obviously meant ...maybe he was just NOT up on them, meaning the Principles, Concepts and Theories of EPAK.

You would be surprised at the number of Kenpoist out there who learned from the Big Red Book or who were not "close to the source" as Mr. Parker's Kenpo evolved. They may use words like "Torque" or "Marriage of Gravity" without much more understanding than that. Lots of room for variation out there. But hopefully as the number of practitioners increases, the quality and quantity of information increases (yes, I know this is wishful thinking on my part, but we can always hope.)

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

[molson]

I am making the switch to EPAK from another blended system, and I for one realize my weakness on priciples and concepts. But it is refreshing to learn them.


Jeff Nelson

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by molson
I am making the switch to EPAK from another blended system, and I for one realize my weakness on priciples and concepts. But it is refreshing to learn them. Jeff Nelson


Yes, they add a bit of truism or understanding with a slight touch of reality to the system somehow. I know when I started on them it was a bright sunny day.

:asian:

[molson]

I never realized how much I enjoyed yellow and orange techniques. I guess your never too old to learn or as they say, you can teach and old dog new tricks.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by molson
I never realized how much I enjoyed yellow and orange techniques. I guess your never too old to learn or as they say, you can teach and old dog new tricks.


You will always be a "student of Kenpo"......... regardless of who, where or what you already know or have accomplished.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
You will always be a "student of Kenpo"......... regardless of who, where or what you already know or have accomplished.

:asian:

Ok student, That means it's your turn to clean the bathroom!;)

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Ok student, That means it's your turn to clean the bathroom!;)

Just because we are students, doesn't mean we do away with the rank system "totally"!!! Now YOU go grab your toothbrush!
....... LOL.

:rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Just because we are students, doesn't mean we do away with the rank system "totally"!!! Now YOU go grab your toothbrush!
....... LOL.

:rofl:

It broke..............:o

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
It broke..............:o

Likely story. :rolleyes:

[ob2c]

I understand that SGM Parker was a very well rounded martial artist (obviously!). I'm curious as to what styles he studied formally, as well as others he may have worked with that influenced him.

Also I've heard, and believe, that a large part of Mr. Parkers genious was in extracting principles, cataloging them, and teaching their application in a manner relevant to our western mindset. Could you as a senior Kenpoist who studied with Mr. Parker expound on that? Possibly give some insights into the way his mind worked? I know that is asking a lot. But I'd be interested in anything you have to say on this.

And, thank you, sir, for your time and an interesting and informative thread!

[Michael Billings]

Create? Discover? Refine? Reanalyze? Discard? Reinforce?

-Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by ob2c
I understand that SGM Parker was a very well rounded martial artist (obviously!). I'm curious as to what styles he studied formally, as well as others he may have worked with that influenced him.


He played sports (football) boxed, did judo, and toyed with several different forms of the martial arts thru watching or with freinds that were involved (taekwondo, hapkido, kali, anris, etc.). Masa Oyama, Ohsima, James Lee, Ark Wong, Bruce Lee, Lau Boon sp?, and many, many others he would observe and compair their movements.


Originally posted by ob2c
A large part of Mr. Parkers genious was in extracting principles, cataloging them, and teaching their application in a manner relevant to our western mindset. Could you as a senior Kenpoist who studied with Mr. Parker expound on that? Possibly give some insights into the way his mind worked?


Well, he was an educated man with an inquisitive mind. He loved to analyize what he was studying and catagorize for easy reference what he found. Since the Kenpo was his topic and playground, this is what and where he played.... and inserted all his skills and attention to develop what he gave us to continue with.


Originally posted by ob2c
And, thank you, sir, for your time and an interesting and informative thread!


Thank You...... I'm glad you are enjoying it. Many have some good comments.

:asian:

[ob2c]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Create? Discover? Refine? Reanalyze? Discard? Reinforce?

All that, and probably more!

When I work out with other stylists, I can see a lot of the principles at work in what they do. But AK often does it better. So those principles woud possibly have been discovered, pulled out, reanalized, and subsumed under Mr. Parkers methodology. Excess movement would have been discarded. Then techniques created to teach and reinforce the principles. ;)



Gd7, thanks for the reply, and the insight into Mr. Parkers' personality.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by ob2c
All that, and probably more! Gd7, thanks for the reply, and the insight into Mr. Parkers' personality.


That's what this thread is for.... Questions that you shoot at me. I may not know all or the correct answers but I'll give it my best shot. ** wink **;)

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

I know you are making Sigung's Gathering this coming weekend. Are you going to be able to swing John Sepulveda's California Spirit Camp the next weekend?

Hope you make it.

-Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I know you are making Sigung's Gathering this coming weekend. Are you going to be able to swing John Sepulveda's California Spirit Camp the next weekend? Hope you make it.
-Michael


Don't know yet.

:confused:

[Goldendragon7]

Which is more important:...........
"Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Which is more important:...........
"Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?

:asian:

Always TIME! The more seasoned the person is, the better. Age and winsdom will always win out.:asian:

[tunetigress]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Always TIME! The more seasoned the person is, the better. Age and winsdom will always win out.:asian:

This bodes well for all us old and wise underbelts out here! Does this means it's not a demeaning thing to take forever to advance in rank? Maybe there's hope for me yet! ;)

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by tunetigress
This bodes well for all us old and wise underbelts out here! Does this means it's not a demeaning thing to take forever to advance in rank? Maybe there's hope for me yet! ;)

Demeaning? Never. We're all on our separate path, and will influence others below us as we guide them. The ones above us will be there to guide us, in return.:asian:

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Which is more important:...........
"Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?

:asian:

Time as measured by amount of training they have done, not by how many "years" they have in the art.

[Klondike93]

Well someone had to lie about it :rofl:

It used to be in the old days that one was reflection of the other, but now it seems to be all about rank. :(


:confused:

Klondike (aka Chuck)

[Seig]

Originally posted by tunetigress
This bodes well for all us old and wise underbelts out here! Does this means it's not a demeaning thing to take forever to advance in rank? Maybe there's hope for me yet! ;)
How long you take isn't the issue, it's the quality you develop in that time. Of course, as we grow older and incur illness or injury, somethings necessitate change in the way we do things. So, you may be stronger at one thing than I am, or vice versa, either way, it doesn't negate your knowledge or skill, it just makes us individual. And I agree with Ricardo, we mid-level black belts are here to guide the underbelts and the senior black belts are here to guide us.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Seig
The senior black belts are here to guide us.


Now you just have to listen! :D

:asian:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Which is more important:...........
"Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?

:asian:

Quality!!

There's black belts there with lots of years of training that work exactly the same as they did when they tested for they black and haven't learned a thing since...

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Seig
we mid-level black belts are here to guide the underbelts and the senior black belts are here to guide us.

Well,

Falling in line with my normally critical modus operandi let me ask a few questions.

1) what grade would you give the AK mid-level black belts in this pursuit to "guide" in general?

2) what have you found to be the most difficult part of this responsibility?

3) the above statement implies a pecking order, are "underbelts" not allowed to go straight to the well for a drink?

jb:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by RCastillo
We're all on our separate path, and will influence others below us as we guide them.

I would argue that "guidance" which is really "knowledge" doesn't always follow the direction of gravity.

jb:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Well,

Falling in line with my normally critical modus operandi let me ask a few questions.
I'll do my best to answer them.


1) what grade would you give the AK mid-level black belts in this pursuit to "guide" in general?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this question, but if I am interpreting it correctly, I call 2nd, 3rd and 4th Degree Black belts "mid-level". That is MY interpretation.


2) what have you found to be the most difficult part of this responsibility?
The most difficult thing to me, is passing along the knowledge I have gained at a pace slower than I would like. Sometimes it is difficult to remember that not everyone has my passion for Kenpo, and Ihave a tendency to try and give too much information to fast for it to be internalized and understood properly.

3) the above statement implies a pecking order, are "underbelts" not allowed to go straight to the well for a drink?

I do not feel that a blanket answer can really cover that. I do feel that to a degree it is disrepectful for a student to go over his instructor's head to the instructor's instructor. There may be times or situations where this is acceptable. It all depends on the situation and the practitioners involved. I do believe there is a "pecking order". For example, I would be highly displeased with one of my orange belts calling Mr. Conatser at home for help on kicking set. On the other hand,I have students preparing for their black belts, and since Mr. C is the head of the organization and in charge of the promoting body, I may not have an issue of they called him for input on their thesis or maybe about an Insight on Long 4 or their personal form that I may not have had. But, if htey took such an action without securing both my and Mr. C's permission first, I would be displeased with them. Nor would I find it acceptable for me to call Mr. LaBounty because I disagreed with Mr C or I wanted to know something I was told I was not ready for. Those are just examples.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Seig
I'll do my best to answer them.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this question, but if I am interpreting it correctly, I call 2nd, 3rd and 4th Degree Black belts "mid-level". That is MY interpretation.

The most difficult thing to me, is passing along the knowledge I have gained at a pace slower than I would like. Sometimes it is difficult to remember that not everyone has my passion for Kenpo, and Ihave a tendency to try and give too much information to fast for it to be internalized and understood properly.

I do not feel that a blanket answer can really cover that. I do feel that to a degree it is disrepectful for a student to go over his instructor's head to the instructor's instructor. There may be times or situations where this is acceptable. It all depends on the situation and the practitioners involved. I do believe there is a "pecking order". For example, I would be highly displeased with one of my orange belts calling Mr. Conatser at home for help on kicking set. On the other hand,I have students preparing for their black belts, and since Mr. C is the head of the organization and in charge of the promoting body, I may not have an issue of they called him for input on their thesis or maybe about an Insight on Long 4 or their personal form that I may not have had. But, if htey took such an action without securing both my and Mr. C's permission first, I would be displeased with them. Nor would I find it acceptable for me to call Mr. LaBounty because I disagreed with Mr C or I wanted to know something I was told I was not ready for. Those are just examples.

Fair answers,

On grade I was referring to pass/fail or A thru F...

I agree with the 2nd answer and partially agree with the 3rd answer based on your situation (i.e. head of a school, etc..). Thanks for the input.

jb

[Seig]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Fair answers,

On grade I was referring to pass/fail or A thru F...

I agree with the 2nd answer and partially agree with the 3rd answer based on your situation (i.e. head of a school, etc..). Thanks for the input.

jb
JB,
I don't feel that I am qualified to give a pass/fail grade to others teaching the art. On the whole it is a delicate subject.

[brianhunter]

Hey Mr C!

Sorry for not letting your thread go away ;)

1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?

3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

Thanks much Sir
Brian

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Hey Mr C!

Sorry for not letting your thread go away ;)

1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?

3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

Thanks much Sir
Brian

Hi folks!
Brian asked me these questions this morning so I thought i'd answer them here as well...

1.Mr. Parker did indeed receive his black belt from Prof. Chow and the actual certificate he received is featured in the "Memories of Ed Parker" book. I'm in the process of relocating my studio so if someone would be so kind as to look and place the date on this thread?
2.Mr. Parker on several occasions tried to get Prof. Chow to come to the mainland with no sucess. He would also look at certain techniques and from his past experience on the streets of the kalihi district and see that some of the movements were not practical ,per se, in modern encounters. As far as offically when it happened, I'd probably say the 1960's where the actual "parting of the ways" occured.
3.The approximate date that Mr. Parker donned the tenth Degree Black Belt was subsiquent to the creation and completion of what was originally titled "Advanced Kenpo". However, Jay T. Will had recently published a book with that titile, So, Mr. Parker used "infinite insights into kenpo". That was his "masterpiece".

I think what Brian is trying to get to is that Ed Parker had a logical progression in regards to his rank promotions and agenda for the requirements he had for his ranks.
at one point some of his students got together and said to Mr. Parker "Mr. Parker, we feel that you should wear the Tenth Degree Black Belt." He got very offended and said to the person "I'LL tell YOU when i'm ready to wear a tenth!"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[cdhall]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
...So, Mr. Parker used "infinite insights into kenpo". That was his "masterpiece"....

Joe and Mr. C;

Would either of you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

I took Book 5 into Mr. Duffy last night to go over the salutation. It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.

So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.

And is there anything else that was "snuck in" like that?

Thanks in advance.
:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi folks!
Brian asked me these questions this morning so I thought i'd answer them here as well...

1.Mr. Parker did indeed receive his black belt from Prof. Chow and the actual certificate he received is featured in the "Memories of Ed Parker" book. I'm in the process of relocating my studio so if someone would be so kind as to look and place the date on this thread?


June 5th, 1953

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/kirknchristy/EKPDiploma.jpg

[KENPOJOE]

D Hall wrote,
"Joe and Mr. C;

Would either of you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

I took Book 5 into Mr. Duffy last night to go over the salutation. It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.

So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.

And is there anything else that was "snuck in" like that?"

Hi Doug!
There are several typos in the infinite insights series,mostly due to re-editing of the original documents. Originally, the forms were supposed to be pictures of Lee Wedlake, but were redone as drawings by Ed Parker Jr. Since the pictures were of Mr. Wedlake,perhaps you can email him for more details?

There are 2 schools of thought regarding the American Kenpo salutation.
One states that you signify with your right fingers pointing to the left hand so you can show "the right side of the form" and do opposite for the left side. However, you must retract the hand to chamber if you are to go through the full salutation at that point.

The second method has you pointing at the side you are performing [so that you point to the right hand first, then the left] I use the later method because you can move from point of origin from the signifying hand [right] from the left side. for a smoother transition.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?
2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?
3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?
Thanks much Sir, Brian


Some really good questions....... I had to do a little checking.... but here are my best "guesses".....


Originally posted by brianhunter
1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?


He had trained in several things including boxing, wrestling, and judo for about 6 or seven years prior to his black belt. So I would say close to 3 or 4 years to get his Black Belt (which was in '53 {he was 22}).


Originally posted by brianhunter
2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and implement his own system of kenpo?


This was about the year 1956 or 1957 when he started his studio or shortly after.
[so about 8 to 10 years of experience]


Originally posted by brianhunter
3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?


This was on or very close to the Internationals in 1976 or 1977.
{approximately 27 to 30 years}

These time lines are probably close however, the "time and era" that Ed Parker was in was critical. He laid the foundation of much of the material and thinking for "EVERYONE AFTER" if you look at what was going on at the time, he developed and organized much of what "all" have in some way, shape, or form, borrowed, rearranged or built upon. It will be extremely difficult if not impossible to duplicate what Ed Parker developed, no matter what the time frame. To compare today's 10ths with Ed Parker's accomplishments is silly to me.

Ed Parker IS and always will be the "Senior" Grandmaster and "Founder" of this system and train of thought {American Kenpo}, no one should take those titles that belong truthfully to him. Now, there could be Senior Masters of the Art {10th Degrees} and if you have your own offshoot Association be a Grandmaster of that group with no problem. But, "Senior Grandmaster and Founder" I feel belong ONLY to Mr. Parker unless your system is at least 60 % totally different than his..... (none today are, that I know of yet).

Ed Parker, was "THE" spark that started the flame that started the fire which now has become American Kenpo and all of its offspring.

Just my opinion.....
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
Would you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

ok


Originally posted by cdhall
I looked Book 5 to go over the salutation. It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.


No, that is incorrect, it was a misprint. One thing that you must realize it that at the time of that publication the method of mock up was "cut and paste" not the clean digital editing of today. So there were unfortunately several typos and cut an paste errors.

The last revision that Ed Parker worked on was: to point to the left hand, finger signal, then point to the right hand, finger signal with the appropriate "finger announcement" of the form you were doing, then from the right side you come up to the right shoulder and advance with the cat and warrior/scholar presentation and so on.

Many have created "variations" to indicate performing specifically one side or the other in many different ways over the years, but this was his last salutation of choice.


Originally posted by cdhall
So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.


I believe that it was just an oversight. However, Ed Parker was known to throw in little differences to see who was learning what from where [he did this a lot when he was asked to film things in the early years].

:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
...
The last revision that Ed Parker worked on was: to point to the left hand, finger signal, then point to the right hand, finger signal with the appropriate "finger announcement" of the form you were doing, then from the right side you come up to the right shoulder and advance with the cat and warrior/scholar presentation and so on....

Thank you both, sirs. This is how Mr. Duffy explained it to me. However this also seems the opposite of how KenpoJoe just explained it.

KenpoJoe, would you confirm for me if the above is the way you do it, or if your "finger pointing fist" is across your body in front of your left hand when you then draw it back across your right shoulder to begin your salute.

I am just curious to know if I understood KenpoJoe correctly. Thank you.
:asian:

[Kirk]

1. I know it varies, and I know it has so many factors involved, but in your opinion, an average yet hard working student, how
long till black?

2. Why does the answer to number 1 vary so much among
seniors?

3. Why do some feel it's necessary to make it take MUCH MUCH
longer to earn 1, than it did theirs? Was something added to
the system to make you less effective at the varied ranks?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
1. I know it varies, and I know it has so many factors involved, but in your opinion, an average yet hard working student, how
long till black?


In my experience with the way I train people it takes about 4-6 years. This does vary from case to case but on an average this is close.


Originally posted by Kirk
2. Why does the answer to number 1 vary so much among
seniors?


I don't think the word "seniors" is the issue but rather "instructors". Different instructors {Seniors or not} all have different perspectives and backgrounds on training. I think mostly it depends on your lineage and personal training experiences and what each individual wants.


Originally posted by Kirk
3. Why do some feel it's necessary to make it take MUCH - MUCH
longer to earn 1, than it did theirs?


That you will have to ask each instructor individually. As for my personal answer...... I wish someone would earn one under me in record breaking time, hell, if they put out the effort and can do the material I have no problem promoting an eager, enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and skilled student..... I dream of those students....... LOL


Originally posted by Kirk
Was something added to the system to make you less effective at the varied ranks?


There was a lot of technical information developed in the 80's. This information has now crept into most of the curriculums. With today's communication tools, such as the internet, we have faster access to much more than at any of our prior times in our evolution {students today ask technical questions they have got from the internet to some instructors that the instructor has not heard of before}. I think this has something to do with the length of time in ranks today.

but that is just my opinion........
:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Prof C,

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last answer in the previous post. The volume of information available is staggering ... whoops, I just staggered, well, I listed a bit to port, but am back on course now.

Really looking forward to next month. I hope everything works out so you can visit Austin.

Oss,
-Michael

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I hope everything works out so you can visit Austin.


Me too

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
Me too


:boing2:

[Goldendragon7]

:o

[Elfan]

What are the dimensional stages of action?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
What are the dimensional stages of action?


That is the updated term for the old phrase "Bridging the Gap"

1) Out of Range
2) In Range
3) Contact Penetration
4) Contact Manipulation

:asian:

[Elfan]

What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?

Also, when did you say the DSA was developed as a teaching tool?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?


Yes, you can make contact and it "can" be meaningful (grabbing, controlling, etc.) depending upon your definition of meaningful. lol


Originally posted by Elfan
Also, when did you say the DSA was developed as a teaching tool?


I don't know that I did, but I would say around 1986.

:asian:

[Elfan]

hmm well if I can grab *and* control woudn't that put me at contact manipulation?

[Kenpo Yahoo]

What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?


You are correct. In range is a surface phenomenon. This simply means that you can, by way of foot maneuvers and stance changes, make surface contact (minor strike, grab, etc.). Think of contact penetration as one of those bunker buster bombs. When you are in contact penetration range you are not simply able to hit the target, but you are able to damage the target by striking 3-6 inches beyond the point of surface contact.

Contact manipulation is simply a range where you are ALREADY in contact with that individual (Crossing Talon, Gripping talon, the Clinch, etc.).

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
hmm well if I can grab *and* control woudn't that put me at contact manipulation?


Not necessarily....... just because you can grab and control momentarily, does not clearly define exactly "what" range you or a portion or you (say hand or foot) are at. Manipulation is the closest range then works outward to contact penetration, then in range then out of range....... but then again, you know this. :)

:asian:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I would be interested in looking at what he did.

:)

Ok, I've finally written it down. It probably needs some rewording to make it clearer, but I didn't know how to write it better...

It's name comes from the tiger claws you execute throughout the form, and also because you execute all the movements breathing slowly and with tension instead of power, except for the kick.

The form/set is done almost completely in a low horse stance, or at least lower than a regular horse stance.

1.- From attention stance, step left into a horse stance while doing a right horizontal claw (palm loocking downwards) and left vertical claw (as if checking) moving slowly from right to left.
2.- Reverse the motion and do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw.
3.- Cross your hands while going upwards and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws.
4.- Do double downward claws (they follow parallel paths).
5.- Step to 6:00 with right foot into a very low dragon stance (it is like a reverse bow). Do a right upward claw simultaneously (it must be a circular clockwise movement) and follow the motion until both arms are parallel and facing each other (left over right). Finish movement by tearing apart with both hands. Right hand must now be back and high, and ready to attack; and left, low in front, checking.
6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00. Do double downward claws.
7.- Step back with right foot and then to 3:00 into a horse stance, crossing your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncrossing at head level to deliver double downward claws.
8.- Do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw, as in 2.
9.- Do right a to left right horizontal claw and left vertical claw, as in 1.
10.- Salute with left palm over right fist and close.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Ok, I've finally written the form down. It's name "Tiger Breathing" comes from the tiger claws you execute throughout the form, and also because you execute all the movements breathing slowly and with tension instead of power.


Thanks mucho! This should be fun to play with.

again thanks KenpoMachine for taking the time and effort!!

:asian:

[Kenpomachine]

You're welcome! :cool:
And enjoy it!!
:D

[Jill666]

I'm having trouble with #5 but let it percolate a bit- you lost me at "circular clockwise movement". What is the left doing? How do they end up parallel?

Up to that point and from #6 on is clear. I just get lost in that one move.


:cuss:

If you can figure another way to write that set I would be in your debt :asian:

[Kenpomachine]

The left does a smaller circle, but I've yet to figure what it's meant to be.

[Jill666]

Oh- okay! *light bulb goes on over head*

Gotcha. A similar move is also in Saifa, which I just had the pleasure of screwing up repeatedly in class. Now I can see it.

Many thanks!

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Thanks mucho! This should be fun to play with.

again thanks KenpoMachine for taking the time and effort!!

:asian:

I can't find the original source of this "thread."


I would be interested in looking at what he did.

Where did this come from? Looking at what who did? Where?

Sorry I got lost. Mr. C. Should publish this thread as a book. I thnk I printed the first 30pages, but that was last year....
:confused:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by cdhall
I can't find the original source of this "thread."



Where did this come from? Looking at what who did? Where?

Sorry I got lost. Mr. C. Should publish this thread as a book. I thnk I printed the first 30pages, but that was last year....
:confused:

It was like one month ago. I had to go back myself quite many pages to find it again...

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
1.- From attention stance, step left into a horse stance while doing a right horizontal claw (palm loocking downwards) and left vertical claw (as if checking) moving slowly from right to left.
2.- Reverse the motion and do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw.
3.- Cross your hands while going upwards and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws.
4.- Do double downward claws (they follow parallel paths).
5.- Step to 6:00 with right foot into a very low dragon stance (it is like a reverse bow). Do a right upward claw simultaneously (it must be a circular clockwise movement) and follow the motion until both arms are parallel and facing each other (left over right). Finish movement by tearing apart with both hands. Right hand must now be back and high, and ready to attack; and left, low in front, checking.
6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00. Do double downward claws.
7.- Step back with right foot and then to 3:00 into a horse stance, crossing your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncrossing at head level to deliver double downward claws.
8.- Do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw, as in 2.
9.- Do right a to left right horizontal claw and left vertical claw, as in 1.
10.- Salute with left palm over right fist and close.

There is a mistake in #6 and #7. Visual memory is worse than muscle memory, and I wrote the set in an IT class.

6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, cross your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws. Then do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00 into a horse stance.
7.- Do double downward claws.

[Kenpomachine]

At what time there were only 35 techniques in the curriculum? I think that was what was taught to me the first time I got into a kenpo class in the 80's.
We were somewhat behind, uh? :eek:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
At what time there were only 35 techniques in the curriculum? I think that was what was taught to me the first time I got into a kenpo class in the 80's.


I don't know of a time when there were "only" 35 Techniques.

There WAS a time when the Orange - Purple - Blue & Green, had 32 techniques per belt.

If that is what you mean.

:asian:

[Kenpomachine]

No, not exactly.
When kenpo first arrived to Spain it only had 35 techniques. One of the explanations go like this, that those were the techniques Arturo Petit knew by the time he had to left Ed Parker's side at the beginning.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
One of the explanations go like this, that those were the techniques Arturo Petit knew at that time.


That I don't know but could be.

:asian:

[Ender]

Originally posted by cdhall
I think the big deal is that he parted with Mr. Parker in the 80's on bad terms and also that his Panther videos promoted him as a/the Kenpo Master when Mr. Parker was alive (I think) and that didn't seem right.
:asian:

Well I have no idea about Larry Tatum's history, his feuds, or any of that. I have never met him, I don't know if he's friendly or not. Or approachable or a good teacher.

But when I saw his tapes, it was like an epiphany. I thought "that's what kenpo is supposed to be!". Now that is not a slam against other instructors. I have seen many good ones, and some bad ones. Some have thier mechanics done well...some move with great fluidity. But Tatum has it all, in my opinion. If you get a chance to see him move do so. I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move.

[Seig]

Mr. C,
I am not sure but I thought that I read somewhere in the Jorney, that in either the 1950's or the early 60's, that the entire system at the time only had thirty some techniques.

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by Ender
I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move.

i hope he doesn't move like a girl
:p :D ;)
just a joke

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Ender
I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move.

I thought there was no standard? I thought Kenpo was an art
that you could taylor and customize to suit yourself, and your own
size/height/weight/ability/disability ??? :confused:

[kenpo3631]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll tootsie pop?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kirk
I thought there was no standard? I thought Kenpo was an art
that you could taylor and customize to suit yourself, and your own
size/height/weight/ability/disability ??? :confused:

Certainly there is no standard type of movement, it's an idea. Get behind the wheel of a brand new Ford Focus and drive it for awhile. Then get behind the wheel of a Brand new Northstar Cadillac and tell me which one would you rather have if you had the choice. You're going to pick the one that suits you, your style of driving, what the use of the vehicle is, etc.. Same thing in Kenpo, you can feel the differences and see the difference.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[sumdumguy]

Originally posted by Ender
Well I have no idea about Larry Tatum's history, his feuds, or any of that. I have never met him, I don't know if he's friendly or not. Or approachable or a good teacher.

But when I saw his tapes, it was like an epiphany. I thought "that's what kenpo is supposed to be!". Now that is not a slam against other instructors. I have seen many good ones, and some bad ones. Some have thier mechanics done well...some move with great fluidity. But Tatum has it all, in my opinion. If you get a chance to see him move do so. I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move.

Hmmmmm??? Having dummied for Mr. Tatum at a seminar in the Northwest I would say that he is approachable and very friendly. I think though, that you need to get out more if you had an epiphany watching his tapes..... Don't get me wrong, he does move well, as he should and would be expected for someone of his rank and experience. I just think that.... well it doesn't matter, we all have our own opinions. This is just mine, not meant to be a slight by any means.

Have a Nice Day!!! :asian: :asian:

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Ender
Well I have no idea about Larry Tatum's history, his feuds, or any of that.

His feuds? Man, that makes Mr. Tatum sound like a pro-wrestler! :rofl:

Do you think he can whup the Untertaker? :confused:

:rofl:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Seig
Mr. C,
I am not sure but I thought that I read somewhere in the Jorney, that in either the 1950's or the early 60's, that the entire system at the time only had thirty some techniques.

If that is true, then Petit should had left Mr Parker and gone back to his country in the 60's...

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Seig
Mr. C,
I am not sure but I thought that I read somewhere in the Jorney, that in either the 1950's or the early 60's, that the entire system at the time only had thirty some techniques.

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Sullivan says this in Vintage Kenpo. I don't have a copy, can someone look? I think it is during voiceover during Black and White footage not during his conversations with Mr. Parker, Jr.
:asian:

[Ender]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
His feuds? Man, that makes Mr. Tatum sound like a pro-wrestler! :rofl:

Do you think he can whup the Untertaker? :confused:

:rofl:

*LOL...nah...I was a purple belt when I saw his tapes. struggling, trying to get the moves right. I bought and borrowed some tapes of other instructors, then I saw Tatum. (BTW, at that time I had not seen SGM Parker on tape yet) and I thot, yeah, now I see what i should be targeting my techniques to be.

and yes kenpo is different for each person, but you should see him. He does move like SGM Parker, what can i say?*L

and..this is just my opinion.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Ender
*LOL...nah...I was a purple belt when I saw his tapes. struggling, trying to get the moves right. I bought and borrowed some tapes of other instructors, then I saw Tatum. (BTW, at that time I had not seen SGM Parker on tape yet) and I thot, yeah, now I see what i should be targeting my techniques to be.

and yes kenpo is different for each person, but you should see him. He does move like SGM Parker, what can i say?*L

and..this is just my opinion.

Well, I hate to say it's obvious I feel the same way about the man, I've been with him 13 years and he still WOWS me all the time with his knowledge, physical skills, and sheer projection of the art. Watch Locking Horns on the Orange Belt tape and watch me take a hard shot to the chin, only problem was he barely moved and it hit me like a train.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[satans.barber]

What curriculum do the tapes follow? i.e. is there a listing somewhere of which techniques are presented on each tape?

Thanks,

Ian.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by satans.barber
What curriculum do the tapes follow? i.e. is there a listing somewhere of which techniques are presented on each tape?

Thanks,

Ian.

We do the 24 system as outlined in Infinite Insights. You can ck Larry's website at www.ltatum.com and get the info. Each tape has 12 techs on it and they are about an hour long, some more, some less. Really good tapes for learning new material to be worked on with an instructor and they act as an artificial memory. I can't tell you how many times I used the tapes when I was learning the extensions to green.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[satans.barber]

Thanks Clyde, our syllabus is in a totally different order, so I'll have to see if I can find a tape that's got quite a lot of our techniques on. They do seem to come highly recommended by pretty much everyoen!

Ian.

[satans.barber]

Hmm, I've printed off a big list of the EPAK 24 syllabus, and gone through it highlighting all the techniques that we do in Kempo Ryu - I think there's enough similarity to warrant getting some tapes (we do 62 out of the 96 techniques in Orange to Green, and then less so after that).

I had a look at Master Tatum's site, and also the BKRU site where they're sold, but neither place lists which 12 techniques are on which volume, and I could really do with knowing (since the ones that I don't do from each belt could fall on one particular volume). I've seen the 24 techniques written in a different order for each belt that's all, in different places (the list on Master Tatum's site seem to have some duplicates and ommissions in as well).

If someone could be really kind and tell me which techniques are on Orange Vol 1, Purple Vol 1, Blue Vol 1 and Green Vol 1, I can work out the rest by process of elimination...I'd be really really grateful :)

Thanks,

Ian.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Hmm, I've printed off a big list of the EPAK 24 syllabus, and gone through it highlighting all the techniques that we do in Kempo Ryu - I think there's enough similarity to warrant getting some tapes (we do 62 out of the 96 techniques in Orange to Green, and then less so after that).

I had a look at Master Tatum's site, and also the BKRU site where they're sold, but neither place lists which 12 techniques are on which volume, and I could really do with knowing (since the ones that I don't do from each belt could fall on one particular volume). I've seen the 24 techniques written in a different order for each belt that's all, in different places (the list on Master Tatum's site seem to have some duplicates and ommissions in as well).

If someone could be really kind and tell me which techniques are on Orange Vol 1, Purple Vol 1, Blue Vol 1 and Green Vol 1, I can work out the rest by process of elimination...I'd be really really grateful :)

Thanks,

Ian.

Look at the list in order and the first 12 are on the 1st tape and the 2nd tape contains the last 12.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[satans.barber]

Ah, OK, if Master Tatum's written them i the same order as the tapes then that's fine, it was just with them being in a different order on some other sites, I wasn't sure.

Thanks Clyde,

Ian.

[KenpoIsIt]

Hello Mr. Conatser

I have a question for you regarding the hand gesture when signaling a form. Since I have seen it done either way, can you tell me what Mr. Parker shared with you? Here is the question.

When signaling your form do you use the right hand to signal with the left hand being the backdrop or vice versa?

Thank You.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt
When signaling your form do you use the right hand to signal with the left hand being the backdrop or vice versa?
Thank You.


Done correctly... you start each form with the left hand (at your left side or waist) as the back hand with the right hand signaling what form it is (short or bent finger/s for short forms and long finger/s for the long forms), [note: the fingers never touch the back hand] then mirrored to the right side, then continued up and out into the warrior/scholar salutation portion and beyond till the finish.

:asian:

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

So, can Tatum beat the Undertaker, or what???? :p

:rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
So, can Tatum beat the Undertaker, or what???? :p :rofl:


Well, it looks to me so far he has.....

:cool:

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Well, it looks to me so far he has.....

You were a Hogan fan, weren't ya???? :p

[jfarnsworth]

I'm not a hogan fan nor have I ever met/talked/seen Mr. Tatum but my money would be on Mr. Tatum laying the smack down on the undertaker.:D

[Nightingale]

personally, my bet would be on tatum.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
You were a Hogan fan, weren't ya???? :p


No, the "ULTIMATE WARRIOR" ALL THE WAY......
:D

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
No, the "ULTIMATE WARRIOR" ALL THE WAY......
:D

Get real...........it's the NWO all the way, don't you forget it!:cool:

[Goldendragon7]

The Aussiemanian Devil!!

(pic coming soon)

;)

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
The Aussiemanian Devil!!

(pic coming soon)

;)
Now you're in trouble! The Tessmanian Devil is perturbed that you are giving parts of her name away~!

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Why the offensive move in long 2?

I am refering to the smother punch/sweep kick, uppercut/forarm strike, eye pokes.
Other then the obvious fact that it is offensive and that is the opposit of defensive/counters.:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Mr. Conatser may be in Austrailia still. Lucky dog, it is mid-winter Down Under right now. You may have to wait for your answer from him a bit.

It is an offensive move, but can also be considered a counter in that the Thrusting Sweep kick is a counter against a lead leg kick. That is not THE ANSWER, it is an answer. Also of note are that you get previews of things to come in Long #2, just like we do with the hand isolations in Long #1 being put into practice in Long #2.

Can you think of anywhere in the 3's, 4's, 5,'s, 6 or 7 where we see the same or similar actions?

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Mr Billings,

Thanks for the info. It is food for thought and I will have to analize the motion a bit deeper and the look for the similarties with the others.:asian: :asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Mr. Conatser may be in Austrailia still.

I believe Mr. C. will be home on either Mon July 7th or Tues the 8th.
:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
It is an offensive move, but can also be considered a counter in that the Thrusting Sweep kick is a counter against a lead leg kick. That is not THE ANSWER, it is an answer. Also of note are that you get previews of things to come in Long #2, just like we do with the hand isolations in Long #1 being put into practice in Long #2.

Can you think of anywhere in the 3's, 4's, 5,'s, 6 or 7 where we see the same or similar actions?

The thrusting sweep kick as an offensive move?

Long 3 - Scraping Hoof
Long 4 - at the end after Twirling Hammers
Long 5 - at the end after Leaping Crane opp. to the close after T.H.
Long 6 - During Entwined Lance
Long 7 - I don't know that one.

Is this what you were looking for??? 'cause I'm at work and inbetween customers.:eek: :p

[Michael Billings]

Exactly right Jason. If you think about "catagory completion", which I definitly do not, you can go even further.

[Michael Billings]

Golden One, (copied from Kick thread)

On it's own thread is the question of "where the kick (promotion ceremony) came from. I know what it means from my instructors, Mr. Parker, and what I share with my students ... but I plead ignorance (a common plea for me) when it comes to it's origin. I know there are always "Rights of passage" whether you are a Shaolin monk and into branding, or whether a Marine and getting "pinned".

This right of passage is a big one for my students and myself. It is integral to the promotion ceremony and symbolic in nature ... as my feet leave the ground and I am caught. Where did this specific one come from, and when did Mr. Parker make it part of his promotions?

Thanks, -MB

[cdhall]

This thread has been dormant too long.
Was the previous question about the kick answered?

Mr. C, did you post anything elsewhere about your tour of Australia?

Vive la QnA Thread!

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by Michael Billings
"Where did this specific kick (ceremony) promotion come from, and when did Mr. Parker make it part of his promotions?


Everyone I've asked just said that it has always been there.......... so.....

:asian:

[Chronuss]

have you ever done a self-defense technique demo, and if so, what was the sequence and with how many partners?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chronuss
Have you ever done a self-defense technique demo, and if so, what was the sequence and with how many partners?

LOL, I make them up as I go..... or take a group of techniques and do them..... or do short 3 against opponents..... hell there are hundreds of combinations with any number of opponents.

:rofl:

[Chronuss]

..wasn't precisely the answer I was goin' for. :shrug:

[Chronuss]

...wouldn't care to ellaborate, would you GD? :D

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chronuss
..wasn't precisely the answer I was goin' for. :shrug:


What kind of "Self Defense demo" might you be talking about then.... where ..... for what purpose... give me some more details....

:confused:

[KenpoTess]

Methinks he's wondering about mayhaps Mass Attack type demos.

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
What kind of "Self Defense demo" might you be talking about then.... where ..... for what purpose... give me some more details....

:confused:

quite honestly, for the hell of it. I like the precision and the timing that goes into them, and it looks badass when the uki's respond accordingly and techs. flow into one another.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Chronuss
quite honestly, for the hell of it. I like the precision and the timing that goes into them, and it looks badass when the uki's respond accordingly and techs. flow into one another.

Then why not just go smack someone around then? :confused:

Some of the Demo.'s I've been involved with we have used a specific form and whilist the person is doing the empty hand form another group of people were doing the tech's on someone. As far as material pick tech's out of the web of knowledge and show the complexity as they get more in depth on the degree of difficulty. Show some sets to give the audience an understanding of what we do and why. Perform some sets with a partner using the "mirror image" or "opposite side" along with coordination drills while demonstrating.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Then why not just go smack someone around then? :confused:

Some of the Demo.'s I've been involved with we have used a specific form and whilist the person is doing the empty hand form another group of people were doing the tech's on someone. As far as material pick tech's out of the web of knowledge and show the complexity as they get more in depth on the degree of difficulty. Show some sets to give the audience an understanding of what we do and why. Perform some sets with a partner using the "mirror image" or "opposite side" along with coordination drills while demonstrating.

And what in the sam hill were you doing while everyone else was showing off?:rolleyes:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
And what in the sam hill were you doing while everyone else was showing off?:rolleyes:

I was performing form 6. :D

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I was performing form 6. :D

I'll bet it was wrong.........................:rofl:

[Seig]

When I used to help coreograph these "demos" for tournament competition, I told the team leader to pick a theme. Once a theme was decided upon, a flow could be conceived. From there, the sky's the limit. Of course, Mr. C probably has a much more logical, scientific approach. I'm ready to learn something new, do tell, sir.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
I'll bet it was wrong.........................:rofl:

I guess it could be but I've studied Mr. Planas' video's on form 6 many times over and took 3 pages worth of notes. Other than my immediate instructor no one else has looked over it as I've performed it.:mad:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I guess it could be but I've studied Mr. Planas' video's on form 6 many times over and took 3 pages worth of notes. Other than my immediate instructor no one else has looked over it as I've performed it.:mad:

Don't frown at me Mister! You're wrong, now go back and practice!:D

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Seig

When I used to help coreograph these "demos" for tournament competition, I told the team leader to pick a theme. Once a theme was decided upon, a flow could be conceived. From there, the sky's the limit. Of course, Mr. C probably has a much more logical, scientific approach. I'm ready to learn something new, do tell, sir.

Depending on where you are doing the demo and what the audience is .... will depend on what you develop. Some "demos" are for competition, some for information (advertisement for studio), some historical, yet others entertaining.

If it is for a tournament..... then there are numerous possibilities with much technical info and angling toward the judges.

If it is for a public demonstration in front of a grocery store or movie theater (we did several demos at theaters on stage for the opening of Enter the Dragon ..... many moons ago) then other designs may be formulated.

The sky is the limit and it can be a lot of work and fun to develop them.

If we have time, next time I'm out remind me and we will whip up one in class for fun, and go over a few different examples.


:asian:

[Chronuss]

woo hoo! :D

[Goldendragon7]

Any new Questions?

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Any new Questions?

:asian:
wow, I better start asking some.......lol

[Rob Broad]

This thread has been around for a long time. I am glad to see so many people have gotten some good use of it.

[Doc]

A underhand heelpalm is a heel palm thrown as it rises from a low region upwards ..... and hits strictly with the palm heel

A upward Claw is a maneuver similar to the upward heelpalm but also uses the fingers in a "clawing" fashion. and is "usually" executed behind the radial line reference of the shoulders in an upward stiff-arm manner.

[Goldendragon7]

and is "usually" executed behind the radial line reference of the shoulders in an upward stiff-arm manner.

:)

[Goldendragon7]

This thread has been around for a long time. I am glad to see so many people have gotten some good use of it.

I think everyone ran out of questions......LOL

:idunno:

[Doc]

I think everyone ran out of questions......LOL

:idunno:
What's your sign, do you come here often?

[jaybacca72]

what are your thoughts on escape from the storm and what are some of the variations you have seen? what was the purpose behind the ending?
later
jay

[Goldendragon7]

What's your sign? do you come here often?
LOL, hmmmmm ahhhhhhh an intellectual I presume......lol Well my sign is Scorpio, Dragon, and proceed with caution!




Do you come here often?
Only once in a while unless awakened.

[cdhall]

I think everyone ran out of questions......LOL

:idunno:
OK, I can think of at least on more question. But please politely refer me to a link of this has been gone over before.
:idunno:

Why do so many of the weapon techniques not follow "Divert, Seize, Control, Disarm?"

Why and for what purpose was this formula developed if not for the high-level weapon techniqes?

For the weapon techniques that do not use this formula, should they be updated by a Kenpoist or his/her instructor to follow the formula?

As one of my favorite essay-exam giving teachers used to always add to every essay question, why or why not?

[Goldendragon7]

What are your thoughts on escape from the storm.

What are some of the variations you have seen?

What was the purpose behind the ending?
later jay
You just had to ask didn't you.......... LOL ok here goes...
Escape from the Storm's theme is a variation of "Brushing the Storm" but introduces new strikes (inverted palm heel strikes with twist stance use as well as using a crossover as a "Bracing Angle" and "Fulcrum" on the lower limbs).
This also utilizes "Dropping" to the ground and the importance to being low as you "manipulate" the opponent. Note how tracking is utilized, and the adjustments and alterations due to depth factors is needed.


As to variations, there are or can be an unlimited number depending upon which point during the technique you deviate from. You can graft any number of different scenarios or variable expansions. I personally like to insert a "take down" after the heel palm to the groin and lifting the leg, but that is just one of many possibilities.


As in all "ideal" phased techniques ..... we establish an initial "point of reference" for the new student. As the student matures, the "what if" factors and experimentation is necessary to explore since the ideal phase is only "one" possibility that may occur and the advanced student must realize that many factors can/will come into play in a real confrontation, thus the need to be able to apply extemporaneously the equation formula, and thus formulate from your repertoire of knowledge to be successful.


"One" example or purpose would be.... after you grabbed the leg and kicked to the groin, you may have slipped a bit and fell forward thus forcing you to go down rather than to remain a "stand up", so you drop into a "twist" and continue in some fashion such as described. This is only one possibility and many, many others can be formulated as well.


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

In our weapons training we utilize the following formula, "Divert, Seize, Control, Disarm. Why and for what purpose was this formula developed?
One of the unique qualities of Ed Parker's American Kenpo System is the attention and LOGIC dedicated to either principles, concepts or theories.

To thoroughly understand and thus teach this system you need tools to work with. This is just one example of an important tool.




Why do many of the weapon techniques not follow "Divert, Seize, Control, Disarm?"
We must realize that there are many factors that go into the understanding of our "system". One of these factors is that there are always exceptions or "options" (for the advanced students not necessarily taught to the beginners) to any rules that may have been developed. The Equation Formula also comes into play here, i. e., one may start with Divert, then move directly to Disarm and eliminate "Seize and Control, or opt for another rearrangement due to specific circumstances due to several considerations... (environment, range etc.). :)




For the weapon techniques that do not use this formula, should they be updated by a Kenpoist or his/her instructor to follow the formula?
Well, first off.... ALL"DO" use the formula, just not always in the exact order you mentioned. I don't know if "updated" is the correct word I would use. I would rather say "understand" more of the depth of the formula and it's variables and why.




As one of my favorite essay-exam giving teachers used to always add to every essay question, why or why not?
Now you should have more ammo...... so tell me why or why not.

:asian:

[pete]

"One" example or purpose would be.... after you grabbed the leg and kicked to the groin, you may have slipped a bit and fell forward thus forcing you to go down rather than to remain a "stand up", so you drop into a "twist" and continue in some fashion such as described. This is only one possibility and many, many others can be formulated as well.
makes sense~ what has me puzzled is after all that, doing the in-place switch and going back in... i'm sure there is good reason, i just don't see it.

pete

[Doc]

makes sense~ what has me puzzled is after all that, doing the in-place switch and going back in... i'm sure there is good reason, i just don't see it.

pete
Neither do I, however - Mr. Parker always told me that you should never view THOSE (his emphasis) techniques as complete entities. Sometimes you remove certain ideas from the technique and study them independent of the rest of the "moves."

From that perspective, the "in-place switch and going back in ..." may make more sense. Just maybe you are not going back in but initiating from a singular circumstance that finds an attacker vulnerable to such an action based on environmental as well as other factors. Just a thought Pete.

[ikenpo]

Could we ever envision a "Gathering of the Eagles" type thing for EPAK specifically? All the members of the Journey, all those that should have been in there (Kelly, Palanzo, Doc, etc...), and others that are making an impact at this time (Whitson, etc..)? Or are there too many "organizational gatherings" and "seminar formats" already to prevent this reality from happening? Could such an event lead to improvements in the system as a whole? Or should there be another design format to encourage should dialogue?

jb

[Doc]

Could we ever envision a "Gathering of the Eagles" type thing for EPAK specifically? All the members of the Journey, all those that should have been in there (Kelly, Palanzo, Doc, etc...), and others that are making an impact at this time (Whitson, etc..)? Or are there too many "organizational gatherings" and "seminar formats" already to prevent this reality from happening? Could such an event lead to improvements in the system as a whole? Or should there be another design format to encourage should dialogue?

jb
Actually JB we came very close to that in the "Homecoming" event hosted by Ed Parker last year at the original (kinda) school in Pasadena California. Most gave seminars over two days, and we had a dinner at Won Kok, (one of Mr. Parker's favorite late night eat/meet spots).

Off the top of my head there was myself, Ed Parker, Dave Hebler, Chuck Sullivan, Lincoln Conti, Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Richard Planas, Albert Conejo, Bob Liles, John Sepulveda, Frank Trejo, Dennis Connatser, Diane Tanaka, Doreen Cogliandro, Zach Whitson, and others including Mrs. Ed Parker (Sr.), Sherry Parker, Yvonne Parker, etc.

At one point we all gathered to share stories and anecdotes of Ed Parker Sr. while those that didn't know him asked questions. Perhaps with a bit of proding and promises of participation - it could be done again.

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,

I just do not understand why all of the seniors are not leading by example and coming together to brain storm/shar ideas to help with the progression of Parker Kenpo. Isn't this what Mr Parker wanted?

I like the idea that we at least have this forum to ask questions but why don't you guys lead the way and cut through all the b.s.?

I hope you do not take offense to this but someone needs to ask?

[Goldendragon7]

I just do not understand why all of the seniors are not leading by example and coming together to brain storm/share ideas to help with the progression of Parker Kenpo.

Actually, there have been several attempts to "gather together", and many ARE leading by example through their own individual efforts.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to get a great number of these individuals to agree on specifics. Many are what I term... "era-lized", which means that they learned material from Mr. Parker during the "era" that they were with him and many went in different directions over time but didn't keep current on his constant and "evolving material", so they are well entrenched in their personal comfort zones with the way that they learned the material during their "era" and do not want to adjust anything or move out of it, (of course this is only one observation and opinion {mine} there are most probably a few other reasons also), but none the less each person is {at least in their minds PROGRESSING} the system as they see it.

I do share your thoughts on the possibilities of a more "Unified Kenpo Front" and would welcome any possibilities.:)




Isn't this what Mr. Parker wanted?

As to the desires of Mr. Parker on the "progression of Parker Kenpo" as you stated, from my observations, as varied as the system seems.... the Art is doing well and will continue to do so. There are many fine Seniors currently teaching (whatever they are teaching) and there is a fine crop of younger generation instructors out there that are coming up doing a great job as well, so I don't really see any problems here. There are many new and bright stars on the horizon.

I think Mr. Parker has a taught a great many how to think, use LOGIC to determine true answers and many of us will NEVER let his SYSTEM PERISH!




I like the idea that we at least have this forum to ask questions but why don't you guys lead the way and cut through all the b.s.?

Yes, we have this and other forums (I think this one is the best IMHO) in which several talented Seniors, instructors, black belts and under belts ask and answer questions for all that venture in (and there are a variety of differing opinions also... LOL).
You however will have to cut through whatever :bs: there may be.:ultracool




I hope you do not take offense to this but someone needs to ask?

NO offense taken from me..., thanks for asking. {I hope you feel better now}:uhyeah:

:asian:

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,

I believe that I am fortunate to be under one of the seniors that has the same perspective as you (Lee Wedlake Jr). Mr Wedlake has been a constant sorce of motivation and has reminded me to think and think often. Study, analyze and explore all possibilities. I know that I am just a 1st BB and my learning has just begun. Man is that scary.

Do you have anyone in the Atlanta area? I would be interested in understanding sl4.

Thanks and please advise

[Doc]

Doc,

I believe that I am fortunate to be under one of the seniors that has the same perspective as you (Lee Wedlake Jr). Mr Wedlake has been a constant sorce of motivation and has reminded me to think and think often. Study, analyze and explore all possibilities. I know that I am just a 1st BB and my learning has just begun. Man is that scary.

Do you have anyone in the Atlanta area? I would be interested in understanding sl4.

Thanks and please advise

Well that's the problem with not being commercial. I will not allow anyone to teach SL-4 who is not credentialed to do so, and there is no such thing as competent "distance learning." My credentialed teachers won't leave because they're afraid they may miss something. Therefore proliferation is a slow process. If you're under Lee Wedlake, you're with a good man. If you ever get to Southern Cal, give me a shout and I'll spend some time with you to give you an idea of its depth and have a bite.

[Michael Billings]

Goldendragon7 Orig. Posted:

Actually, there have been several attempts to "gather together", and many ARE leading by example through their own individual efforts.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to get a great number of these individuals to agree on specifics. Many are what I term... "era-lized", which means that they learned material from Mr. Parker during the "era" that they were with him and many went in different directions over time but didn't keep current on his constant and "evolving material", so they are well entrenched in their personal comfort zones with the way that they learned the material during their "era" and do not want to adjust anything or move out of it, (of course this is only one observation and opinion {mine} there are most probably a few other reasons also), but none the less each person is {at least in their minds PROGRESSING} the system as they see it.

I do share your thoughts on the possibilities of a more "Unified Kenpo Front" and would welcome any possibilities.:)

Thanks for the insight. I concur and we can always hope for the best, but I do not think it is in every individual's best interest to unify. It may or may not be the best thing for Kenpo, but many of the Senior's livlihood is tied up in their own Association or student base also. This is just the fiscal reality. Not a bad thing, just a thing. In the meantime we can learn from all ... or not, as we choose.

Respectfully,
-Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Thanks for the insight. In the meantime we can learn from all ... or ... not..., as we choose. Respectfully, -Michael

You're welcome!

Personally speaking ...... It (unification) has never been a "barrier" to ME or my students, as to what Association or Organization any Kenpo Instructor {that I choose to associate or train with} heads or belongs to.

I find all these individuals very open, friendly, respectful and willing to share or train their personal Kenpo Talents when asked. Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Huk Planas, Bob White, John Sepulveda, Frank Trejo, Ron Chape'l, Paul Mills, Skip Hancock, Bob Liles or Dian Tanaka, just to highlight a few of the Kream of Kenpo are all excellent instructors at what they do, and well worth time on the floor with.

As to others that are not so gracious or have agendas.... well, ... I just don't spend a lot of time with.

:asian:

[Dominic Jones]

Hi GD

I was looking through the freestyle techniques and got stumped on this one. Can you crack this code for me?

BPTDH Using the codes I know:

B is the base move
P is a punch
T,D or TD is unknown?? :idunno:
H is a palm heel



Also could you check my understanding of the following codes:
dK is a drag kick (this is lead leg front kick with the rear leg dragging up to the front leg, before the kick, to close distance) For example B1aPdK

s is a snap kick (this is a front kick with a snapping method of execution) For example B3asKrKsrK

rs is a reverse snap kick (this a back kick with a snapping method of execution) For example B6arsK6hK

Thank you for you time.

Cheers Dom :asian:
Sendai Kenpo

[Goldendragon7]

Hi GD, I was looking through the freestyle techniques and got stumped on this one. Can you crack this code for me?

BPTDH Using the codes I know:

B is the base move
P is a punch
T,D or TD is unknown?? :idunno:
H is a palm heel
Cheers Dom :asian:
Sendai Kenpo
Hee hee....... you had to dig around pretty deep to find those old codes.

TD = Take Down The rest you have correct.




Also could you check my understanding of the following codes:
dK is a drag kick (this is lead leg front kick with the rear leg dragging up to the front leg, before the kick, to close distance) For example B1aPdK
Cheers Dom :asian:
Sendai Kenpo
Yes, dK = drag kick....... drag the rear leg up and kick with the front




s is a snap kick (this is a front kick with a snapping method of execution) For example: B3asKrKsrK
Cheers Dom :asian:
Sendai Kenpo

Actually, this series {B3asKrKsrK} is # 27 of the Blue Belt [RL] ....
sK = snap Kick
rK = roundhouse Kick
srK = spinning rear Kick
B3asKrKsrK indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left front crossover. Follow up with a right front snap ball kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee. As your opponent's right knee buckles, plant your right gauging leg while delivering a left roundhouse kick to his groin. Plant your left gauging leg as you continue the flow of your action into a right spinning back heel kick to his body.





rs is a reverse snap kick (this a back kick with a snapping method of execution) For example B6arsK6hK
Cheers Dom :asian:
Sendai Kenpo
NO .... you are off a bit here......
rs = reverse snap kick .... (many call this an inverted front kick - front kick turned heel/instep upward) this is used when you are in the RL alignment.

B6arsK6hK indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left rear crossover. Immediately deliver a right reverse snap kick to your opponent's stomach. As your opponent backs up, plant forward and immediately flow into a left rear crossover, simultaneous with a right thrusting back heel kick to his body.

:asian:

[Doc]

Hee hee....... you had to dig around pretty deep to find those old codes.

TD = Take Down The rest you have correct.



Yes, dK = drag kick....... drag the rear leg up and kick with the front




Actually, this series {B3asKrKsrK} is # 27 of the Blue Belt [RL] ....
sK = snap Kick
rK = roundhouse Kick
srK = spinning rear Kick
B3asKrKsrK indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left front crossover. Follow up with a right front snap ball kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee. As your opponent's right knee buckles, plant your right gauging leg while delivering a left roundhouse kick to his groin. Plant your left gauging leg as you continue the flow of your action into a right spinning back heel kick to his body.




NO .... you are off a bit here......
rs = reverse snap kick .... (many call this an inverted front kick - front kick turned heel/instep upward) this is used when you are in the RL alignment.

B6arsK6hK indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left rear crossover. Immediately deliver a right reverse snap kick to your opponent's stomach. As your opponent backs up, plant forward and immediately flow into a left rear crossover, simultaneous with a right thrusting back heel kick to his body.

:asian:
:ultracool

[Dominic Jones]

Thanks for the swift and knowledgable response GD.

It was the first time for me to see the code with an attached description.


Originally Posted by Goldendragon7

B6arsK6hK indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left rear crossover. Immediately deliver a right reverse snap kick to your opponent's stomach. As your opponent backs up, plant forward and immediately flow into a left rear crossover, simultaneous with a right thrusting back heel kick to his body.

Very cool. Do you have all of the freestyle techniques written out?

Cheers Dom
Sendai Kenpo :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Thanks for the swift and knowledgable response GD.
It was the first time for me to see the code with an attached description.
Very cool. Do you have all of the freestyle techniques written out?
Cheers Dom Sendai Kenpo :asian:

You are certainly welcome, and yes I have everything written out.

:supcool:

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Too much like algebra. I hated algebra. I much prefer "when da guy go li' diss, you go li' dat".

Dave

[Goldendragon7]

Too much like algebra. I hated algebra. I much prefer "when da guy go li' diss, you go li' dat". Dave

LOL :uhyeah: Yeah, in the beginning I thought the same, but after I worked with the codes for a while they are really useful teaching tools...
annnnnnnnnnd..
they can serve as a secret 2nd language at some tournaments....... %-} where the competitors don't know what you are saying..... LOL

rKtsKB5aPbkhKsrKbkB1b/aHTDPrK:idunno:

[KenpoTess]

rKtsKB5aPbkhKsrKbkB1b/aHTDPrK

Now if we can only get Mr. C. to say these outloud.. not in his 'underbreath' tones ;)

[Goldendragon7]

rKtsKB5aPbkhKsrKbkB1b/aHTDPrK

Now if we can only get Mr. C. to say these outloud.. not in his 'underbreath' tones ;)
rkmnmmnmnskbmmmammlb5manamnmnatsmnmnnmnnm....... hee hee

but you know why I do this......... ;)

[KenpoTess]

*Grins* Yes I Know why you do this..;)

[Goldendragon7]

*Grins* Yes I Know why you do this..;)
Hee hee... You better:ultracool

[michaeledward]

Concerning the technique 'Deceptive Panther', I have a question about how quick the technique starts. We were discussing it last night at our studio, and those senior to me don't like the way I am running it.

Here is the basic movement as I understand it ... not the entire technique, just to the point of my question.


Fighting positions .. Attacker in left neutral bow, defender in right neutral bow.
Attack ... Right front kick to right roundhouse kick.
Defense ... Universal block while stepping back slightly with rear leg. Then shuffle in and perform a right side kick to the attackers' left leg.
I think my question is about a) the effectiveness of the Universal block and b) the timing of the shuffle?

a) Should this Universal Block act as a 'strike' on the front kick? (knocking the attacker off balance and interrupting the second kick)

b) I think the shuffle & side-kick should take place in the beat between the front kick and the roundhouse kick. This would move me inside the attackers' range before he can fire off that roundhouse. My instructors are telling me I am moving in too quickly, because I am not blocking the first kick.

The rest of the technique is not posing any challenges, (at this time) ... just the timing on the first move and a half. I would appreciate any thoughts?

[Goldendragon7]

Concerning the technique 'Deceptive Panther', I have a question about how quick the technique starts.
Greetings.....
OK, well first off..... let's make sure we are on the same page with the same description of said technique before we try to dissect it and examine it's components to find the challenge. :) Here is how we do this specific technique....... (with some additional notes for you):uhyeah:

DECEPTIVE PANTHER (Combination Right Front Snap Kick (Low) & Right Roundhouse Kick (High)


1. While in a right neutral bow, quickly shift your left foot (up the circle) toward 4:30 into a right 45 degree cat stance facing 10:30. Simultaneously deliver a left downward block to the inside of your opponent's right low kick and position (to cover high for any attack here - foot or hand) a right inward block for (what will turn out to be) his right high kick, this will resemble/become a universal block.

2. From your right 45 degree cat stance (facing 10:30), deliver a right snapping knife-edge kick to your opponent's left inner knee. (Your opponent should buckle out as well as bend forward.)

3. Plant your right foot forward into a right transitional neutral bow (facing 10:30). As you plant deliver a right downward back knuckle strike to your opponent's right mastoid. Without loss of motion pivot clockwise into a right front rotating twist stance as you deliver a left downward hammerfist to the right side of your opponent's neck.

4. Using the power of a fully accelerated move, pivot counterclockwise out of your twist stance as you deliver a right stiff-arm lifting back knuckle strike to your opponent's face. During your back knuckle strike have your left hand check at your opponent's right shoulder. As you continue the accelerated move, deliver a right back kick to his groin. This kick employs the grafting of thrusting and lifting methods of execution.

5. From the Point of Contact of your kick, execute a right front crossover, and cover out twice toward 4:30.

NOTES ON DECEPTIVE PANTHER

1. NAME: The name of this technique originates from the nature of your opponent's attack. Your opponent is first trying to deceive you with a low kick, before following up with a higher kick. This deceptive gesture resembles the feinting moves of a panther, thus the name Deceptive Panther.

2. THEME: (1)This technique is Family Related with Swinging Pendulum and Detour From Doom, thus it has a similar theme. This technique teaches you the merits of moving up the circle to get you out of the line of attack, as well as how you can extend the range of a your right Knife-Edge kick. The timing of the foot maneuver and the kick is crucial in maximizing your power. Timed with precision, body momentum becomes the chief contributor to the sum total of your force, which helps destroy his foundation. The first action triggers the second action (your right knife-edge kick to his knee), as if they were consolidated as one. Although precise timing gives you the illusion of consolidation, the two moves are, nonetheless, separate. The shifting of your feet, and gravitational marriage are repeated principles that help enhance the use of body momentum.

(2) Deceptive Panther also introduces the use of a Fully Accelerated Move, whereby you gain power by dropping into your rotating twist stance, and gain power on the lift when twisting out. This in-place stance change uses forward and reverse motion achieving nearly 360 degree torque that contributes greatly to the force of the kick.

(3) Furthermore, some of the benefits of a rotating twist stance are revealed: checking, locking, buckling, breaking, and complete rotation for power.



(4) The final kick of this technique is your introduction to Grafted Kicks where you employ a scoop, thrust, and lift.



3. THE ATTACK: In the IDEAL PHASE of this technique your opponent is to the front in a left fighting stance. He then executes a double kick; first a low front kick toward your groin, and secondly a high roundhouse kick toward your head. Other WHAT IF factors are:



a. Your opponent is able to front crossover before you counter.
b. He kicks high, then low.
c. He precedes his right kicks with a left kick.
d. Their is a wall to your immediate right that restricts your movements.



4. Determine the relationship between Deceptive Panther, Detour From Doom, and Swinging Pendulum.

5. Review Kick Set #2 for what it teaches and apply that knowledge to this technique.

6. This technique is a good example of the benefits of perceptual, mental, and physical speed. Add this technique to your freestyle movements.

NOW....... Let's get to your specific questions....




Here is the basic movement as I understand it ... not the entire technique, just to the point of my question.

* Fighting positions .. Attacker in left neutral bow, defender in right neutral bow.

All we know for sure (at this point) is that WE are in a right neutral bow. The opponent could actually be in either (wouldn't matter).




Opponents Attack ... Right front kick to right roundhouse kick.

Agreed



Defense ... Universal block while stepping back slightly with rear leg. Then shuffle in and perform a right side kick to the attackers' left leg.I think my question is about a) the effectiveness of the Universal block and b) the timing of the shuffle?

ok, a bit of detailed examination is needed here..... first off ..... we don't know that he is going to deliver a front kick then roundhouse kick so we treat this as a front kick attack with a check {universal block} (this check may or may not become active) .....

We don't deliver the 'Universal Block' by stepping back, rather UP towards 4:30 (off angling) with the rear or left leg and settle into a 45 degree cat. There is no need to "Shuffle" to deliver the right snapping knife-edge kick to your opponent's left inner knee due to the proper adjustment (which closes distance and increases access) of the left foot.

Keep in mind our 1st action is to get out of the centerline of his initial attack (front kick), we do this by shifting our left foot (up the circle) toward 4:30, as we raise our right foot up onto the ball of the foot into a right 45 degree cat stance facing 10:30, simultaneously delivering a left downward block to the inside of your opponent's right low kick and at the same time position (to cover high for ANY attack here - foot or hand) with the right hand a right inward block/check for (what will turn out to be) his right high kick, this will resemble/become a universal block in either instance.

The Universal Block is very effective here, it allows for complete coverage for actual or perceived protection, whether or not it utilizes both left and right arms or just one.



a) Should this Universal Block act as a 'strike' on the front kick (knocking the attacker off balance and interrupting the second kick) or just a 'block'?

Either. It can act only as a block or if you have the skill for [i]sophisticated delivery of motion,....... then you can have a "striking block".:ultracool




b) I think the shuffle & side-kick should take place in the beat between the front kick and the roundhouse kick. This would move me inside the attackers' range before he can fire off that roundhouse. My instructors are telling me I am moving in too quickly, because I am not blocking the first kick.

With the way that we have described the technique above... this would not be applicable, but it would be a great what if, .... if the opponent reacted away from you on the first block and you needed to adjust closer due to his increased distance after the front kick... you would be forced to make some sort of adjustments, which may include a shuffle in this instance.



The rest of the technique is not posing any challenges, (at this time) ... just the timing on the first move and a half. I would appreciate any thoughts?

I hope this helps shed some light for you. Great question btw!


:asian:

[michaeledward]

Mr. Conaster, Thank you very much for a complete and thorough reply. I appreciate the difficulty in clearly explaining three dimensional body movements in a linquistic format. I imagine it is a bit time consuming to be appropriately descriptive.

My question dealt specifically with the first two steps of your technique write-up.
From your explanation, I can see that what I was trying to say is correct; I want to kick out his left leg sooner than expected.
From your explanation, I can see that what they are saying is also correct; you got to block that front kick (I was trying to avoid it by moving off the center line).

The biggest difference is where my back foot is moving. I can see how the first move to a cat stance will make this technique more effective and quicker than the way I was performing the move; step off center ... shuffle ... kick.

Thank you again.

Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Thank you very much for a complete and thorough reply.
Michael

My pleasure to offer expertise to a fellow Kenpoist!

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Goldendragon7,

Dang ... I tried to give you Rep points for the great explanation, but I guess I had given you some recently so I couldn't do it.

Public KUDOS instead.

Oss,
-Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Goldendragon7,
Dang ... I tried to give you Rep points for the great explanation, but I guess I had given you some recently so I couldn't do it.
Public KUDOS instead. Oss, -Michael

Well, Thank you very much... You are too kind.

Gd7

[Goldendragon7]

Mr. Conatser, I was wondering if you would post the complete list of the 10 techniques and their related techniques on MartialTalk.
Thanks, Chris

Ok ok....... geeze..... here ya go....... :)

THUNDERING HAMMERS + 32 "variations of"
FIVE SWORDS + 46
LONE KIMONO + 9
INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE + 4
SHIELDING HAMMER + 20
REPEATING MACE + 8
LOCKED WING + 1
THRUSTING SALUTE + 2
PARTING WINGS + 24
HOOKING WINGS + 4

MASTER KEY TECHNIQUES

MASTER KEY MOVEMENT(S) are defined as being a move or series of moves that can be used in more than one predicament with equal effect. For example a rear heel kick, shin scrape, and instep stomp can be used for a FULL NELSON, BEAR HUG with the arms free or pinned, REAR ARM LOCK, etc. Or, an arm break can be applied to a cross wrist grab, a lapel grab, or hair grab -‑ application of the arm break would remain constant, but the methods of controlling the wrist would vary. In comparison, MASTER KEY TECHNIQUES entail sequential arrangements of movements that can be applied to a number of predicaments. In the case of a MASTER KEY TECHNIQUE it is a single technique that may be used as a BASE MOVE. Other similar techniques may then be perceived as formulations of it. In many ways they are like Family Groupings and Associated Moves; they are the result of an individual's further association of movements; they are the next logical step in the search for spontaneity. Remember, the following are only one set of model groupings. The art of Master Key Techniques is to eventually be able to use any and all techniques as a BASE MOVE and to see how all other techniques are formulations of it. This should lead you to the next level of spontaneity.


THUNDERING HAMMERS 32
Sleeper
Dance of Death
Grasping Eagles
Unwinding Pendulum
Dance of Darkness ***
Attacking Mace
Flashing Wings
Darting Mace
Crossing Talons
Desperate Falcons
Circling Fans ***
Leaping Crane
Gathering Clouds
Circling the Horizon
Piercing Lance
Taming the Mace
Shield and Mace ‑ Advanced
Back Breaker
Kneel of Compulsion
Brushing the Storm
Escape from the Storm
Flashing Mace
Glancing Salute
Clipping the Storm
Glancing Lance
Ram and the Eagle
Returning Storm
Grasp of Death
Gift of Destruction
Gift in Return
Gift of Destiny
Broken Gift

FIVE SWORDS 46
Delayed Sword
Fatal Deviation ***
Alternating Mace
Snaking Talons ***
Aggressive Twins
Entwined Maces ***
Defying the Storm
Mace of Aggression
Snapping Twigs
The Bear and the Ram
Tripping Arrow
Falling Falcon
Conquering Shield
Cross of Death
Bowing to Buddha
Raining Claw
Glancing Wing
Prance of the Tiger
Circling Fans ***
Deflecting Hammer
Hugging Pendulum
Retreating Pendulum
Dance of Darkness ***
Unwinding Pendulum
Menacing Twirl
Reversing Circles ***
Swinging Pendulum
Detour From Doom
Deceptive Panther
Charging Ram
Broken Ram
Intercepting the Ram
Spreading Branch
Reprimanding the Bears
Captured Twigs
Crushing Hammer
Obscure Wing
Calming the Storm
Securing the Storm
Triggered Salute
Twisted Twig
Bow of Compulsion
Reversing Mace
Circling Destruction
Gripping Talon
Twisted Rod

LONE KIMONO: 9
Twin Kimono
Clutching Feathers
Locking Horns
Captured Leaves
Entangled Wing
Snapping Twig
Raking Mace
Obscure Sword
Falcons of Force

INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE: 4
Circle of Doom
Rotating Destruction
Unfolding The Dark
Encounter With Danger

SHIELDING HAMMER: 20
Sword of Destruction
Evading The Storm
Protecting Fans
Shield and Mace
Leap From Danger
Dominating Circles
Circles of Protection
Raining Lance
Circling Windmills
Unfurling Crane
Reversing Circles
Leap of Death
Destructive Kneel
Destructive Fans
Glancing Spear
Desperate Falcons
Broken Rod
Fatal Deviation ***
Entwined Maces ***
Snaking Talons ***


REPEATING MACE: 8
Shield and Sword
Twirling Hammers
Checking The Storm
Twirling Wings
Entwined Lance
Parting of the Snakes
Capturing the Rod
Defying the Rod

LOCKED WING: 1
Flight to Freedom

THRUSTING SALUTE: 2
Buckling Branch
Striking Serpent's Head

PARTING WINGS: 24
Thrusting Prongs
Begging Hands
Thrusting Wedge
Blinding Sacrifice
Twist of Fate
Crashing Wings
Spiraling Twigs
Squatting Sacrifice
Scraping Hoof
Repeated Devastation
Cross of Destruction
Fallen Cross
Heavenly Ascent
Squeezing the Peach
Crossed Twigs
Circling Wing
Wings of Silk
Obstructing the Storm
Capturing the Storm
Calming the Storm
Securing the Storm
Snakes of Wisdom
Grip of Death
Escape From Death

HOOKING WINGS: 4
Fatal Cross
Twirling Sacrifice
Defensive Cross
Marriage of the Rams

have fun.......
%-}

[carmstrong]

OMG,

Thanks Mr. Conatser. That was exceedingly generous of you. You are a gentleman (warrior) and a scholar...<full salute> Wow, we all have a lot to ponder now.

BTW, what do the three asterisks by some of the techniques mean?

Thanks a million!!!

You da man,

Chris

[Jagdish]

Sir:

Can't believe you have the patience and energy to type all this info! :bow:

Yours,

Jagdish :supcool:

[Goldendragon7]

Sir: Can't believe you have the patience and energy to type all this info!
Yours, Jagdish :supcool:

Just the tip of the iceburg my friend. Keep in mind that the "list" is an interesting start but the proper execution and understanding of just what each move contains and the reason why it is inserted in system is much more important.

:asian:

www.ikko.com (http://www.ikko.com)

[jfarnsworth]

A very gracious gift to say the least. :asian:

[NTDeveloper]

Sir,

First, let me thank you for taking all these questions.

Now, my question is the following: Is there a special name or category for techniques/combinations that involve simultaneous strikes? For example, Grasping Eagles includes a "triple": a left inward block, a front snap kick and a hammerfist.

Could you list a few other techniques that contain 3+ simultaneous strikes?

Thank You,

Chris Moore

[Goldendragon7]

Sir,
Is there a special name or category for techniques/combinations that involve simultaneous strikes? For example, Grasping Eagles includes a "triple": a left inward block, a front snap kick and a hammerfist.
Chris Moore

No there is no special name or categorical set up for simultaneous multiple striking.... mainly these involve the initial movements. you only have a few possible ways to strike at one time with 4 limbs and a head.... so the max number would be 4 at once or if you press to the extreme 5 in very rare circumstances.

These concentrate on the basic and norm not the exception (which is good to explore at some point down the road).

:asian:

[michaeledward]

Could you list a few other techniques that contain 3+ simultaneous strikes?

I am a 'newbie' in Kenpo ... just have a bit more than 4 years study under my belt. However, the first technique that I was obviously conscious of 3 strikes at once was 'Unfurling Crane'

... right elbow to the jaw
... left heel palm
... knee to groin (or scoop kick)
I was pretty proud of me-self when I recognized that.

Mike

[Goldendragon7]

I am a 'newbie' in Kenpo ... just have a bit more than 4 years study under my belt. However, the first technique that I was obviously conscious of 3 strikes at once was 'Unfurling Crane'
... right elbow to the jaw
... left heel palm
... knee to groin (or scoop kick)
I was pretty proud of me-self when I recognized that.

Mike
Good.....good!

%-}

[Goldendragon7]

I keep seeing many discussing the many... MANY variations of techniques that are available in AK today. Some even get into the "who's right" debates! Just possibly.... maybe.... we should revisit the "equation formula" which then leads to the "variable expansions" that can be possible.

Would it be possible that many or all of the "slightly modified" or similar but "name changed" techniques are related and actually all good (of course, assuming that proper principles are applied) and useful?

If this be the case, then looking at some Kenpoists out there that have "started their {so called} own systems" could be scrutinized further as not really starting their own systems but rather simply having changed the names or sequential orders of the techniques which actually falls under Mr. Parker's original system architecture of the EQUATION FORMULA in the first place.

I mean, for example..... take Sword and Hammer (readers digest version) ...
Base Version
1) step into your opponent,
2) sword hand to the throat,
3) hammerfist to the groin.

Now under the ALTER section of the equation formula, we can: "change the weapon, the target or both". So let's say we... insert a backfist to the face, then sword hand to the throat.

Would this not be a viable self defense technique?

Since we altered the sequence, we could maintain the same name, or we could possibly change the name to oh let's say...... "Sword of Devastation" or something else if we so choose!

My point is.... if you understand what Ed Parker has actually left us with, you will see that:

1) there are an infinite amount of worthwhile technique options that (if taught correctly and understood) you have at your fingertips.

2) if you examine some of those that are teaching American Kenpo yet have announced that they are the "founder" of their NEW System, you may just want to ask what is NEW or DIFFERENT in their system vs. what Ed Parker had already laid out. To me, warping or expanding upon what has already been developed is not new.... just being utilized as expected.

Ed Parker taught us that there are: "The three stages of comprehension" ...... to "KNOW OF" something, then "KNOW" something, and finally "UNDERSTAND" something. These are all three distinct areas of comprehension. I have met many that know of a lot about Kenpo, fewer however, really know Kenpo (as demonstrated by the content of their posts and actions {physically, mentally or philologically}), and still fewer yet, those that actually understand the architecture, meanings, and training of Ed Parker's System or are propagating it properly and completely.

So keep asking questions and get good answers. Look to those that can lead you to where you want to go in a proper, respectful, logical and truthful way.

Remember, "There ain't no easy way" you have to "chop wood and carry water"!

:asian:

[michaeledward]

Right now, I think I am in the 'Know Of' ... or at least in the process of 'Knowing Of' ... this stuff called American Kenpo.

Perhaps someday soon, I will 'Know' American Kenpo.

And with a bit of diligence, I may get to the point of Understanding. Time will tell on that, I guess.


Somewhere on this board, there is a post ... (perhaps by you) ... that says, "if you want to know all there is about Kenpo, ask a green belt ... cuz they know everything" ... I remember reading that when I was a Green belt. It hit home. I must remember, I am still a student ... Still a student ... still a student.

Thanks - michaeledward

[Goldendragon7]

Right now, I think I am in the 'Know Of' ... or at least in the process of 'Knowing Of' ... this stuff called American Kenpo.

Perhaps someday soon, I will 'Know' American Kenpo.

And with a bit of diligence, I may get to the point of Understanding. Time will tell on that, I guess.

Well, the fact is we are and will always be in one of the three stages forever.. mostly in the first two. Whenever we finally grasp a good understanding in one area, it usually opens the door for another in which we are back at the "know of" stage. :) Then we proceed on and study hard to eventually achieve or "know" or at least make some sort of progress here before we do the same again in other areas..... bottom line is...... we will NEVER fully achieve the "UNDERSTAND" stage for the complete system (we need a few more lifetimes for that) :(.

But like I tell my students.. "don't get discouraged..... what else do you have to do for the rest of your life"! :rofl:




Somewhere on this board, there is a post ... (perhaps by you) ... that says, "if you want to know all there is about Kenpo, ask a green belt ... cuz they know everything" ... I remember reading that when I was a Green belt. It hit home.

The "tiger" stage for sure!



I must remember, I am still a student ... Still a student ... still a student.
Thanks - michaeledward
Well, Michael, we all need to remember those words above !

Keep in mind .... there are no masters only those with skills above and beyond what we have achieved so far!

:asian:

[Storm]

Hi there

I have a grading coming up soon which requires me to put Form five on the floor. Thats OK, needs work but have a few months to get it looking better.

At this grading we have to do a Form of choice. The others before me have done Form four, the other person doing this grading with me is also going to do form four.

I could do form four - its long, technical and what we consider the signature form of kenpo. Also because of the technical aspect I could possibly get away with a few errors if any were made.

My problem is that I really like Long Three, the movements hard and soft, its crisp feeling etc. The only problem is that being of a lower form I will be marked harder (or different) as they would expect perfection (or close to) and my interpretation, as this form has been done for quite some time.

Would you go with the flow and take some heat off and do Four four or would you take a risk put a bit more pressure on yourself and do a lower form. Do you think that an Instructor might look upon you as though you are trying to get away with something that might seem easier and frown upon it.

I would appreciate an opinion from an Instructors point of view.

Cheers

[Ceicei]

What other martial arts/styles did Mr. Ed Parker Sr. pick up or study prior to (or along with) his creation/standardization of American Kenpo?

- Ceicei

[Goldendragon7]

Hi there
I have a grading coming up soon which requires me to put Form five on the floor. At this grading we have to do a Form of choice.

I could do form four - its long, technical and what we consider the signature form of kenpo.

My problem is that I really like Long Three, the movements hard and soft, its crisp feeling etc. The only problem is that being of a lower form I will be marked harder (or different) as they would expect perfection (or close to) and my interpretation, as this form has been done for quite some time.

Would you go with the flow and take some heat off by doing form Four or would you take a risk put a bit more pressure on yourself and do a lower form.

Do you think that an Instructor might look upon you as though you are trying to get away with something that might seem easier and frown upon it.

I would appreciate an opinion from an Instructors point of view. Cheers
I personally would like you to do a form approiate for your rank, but it depends on what the instructor is looking for. They may be looking for what form you really enjoy or like or which one you have put a lot more time into.

Forms 3 and beyond are really different individually and not really to be viewed on as Lower or Higher in reference to each other. Each has it's own unique "THEME" or purpose (the 3's are grab attacks, the 4 is combinations, the 5 ends with takedowns, the 6 is weapon attacks, the 7 is club work, the 8 is knife work), so you see each has a quality unto it's own.

Does your instructor require you to do a form "already developed" or can you develop your own "personal form"? If you are not sure... then I'd ask your instructor. I personally require students to develop their own form which gives me a greater opportunity to study their mental processes and understanding of their art.

If you don't know exactly what your specific instructor requires or is looking for.... then by all means ASK. Be prepared (asking could be a great step toward this .... right:) ). Then you will know a bit more of just what he/she is looking for..... all instructors view some things differently.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

What other martial arts/styles did Mr. Ed Parker Sr. pick up or study prior to (or along with) his creation/standardization of American Kenpo?
- Ceicei
Mr. Parker dabbled in many different things among them, Boxing, Judo, numerous Kung Fu systems, of course his main instruction from the Chow Brothers and then finally his own analytical mind that put everything together to what we have today. :)

:asian:

[TSUNAMIKENPO]

In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
Tsunami Kenpo

[Goldendragon7]

In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
Tsunami Kenpo
Well, for that question you should go to the source .... Lee Wedlake. I really don't know what he is talking about. I have my suspicions and opinions as to what he means but without asking him directly it would only be a guess.

The Base to the system IS the 154 that is well publicized.

:asian:

[Drifter]

Mr. GD7,

I'm still very low ranking, and working on Long 2 at the moment, but I was wondering, since the Long Forms have isolations at the end of them that give a preview of what's to come, does the end of Long 6 preview Long 7, and does the end of Long 7 preview Long 8? I was just wondering due to the transition from empty hands to clubs to knives. Thank you in advance, Sir!

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
Tsunami KenpoIf you count the extensions to the techs, there are 250 total. I was taught the extension is a technique in and of itself and teach it that way as well. Squeezing the Peach is designed for a Bear Hug, Arms Pinned, the catalyst for this tech. is the opponent pulling back. When you have the ext., it can alone be a technique if the catalyst is your opponent is pushing you forward.


DarK LorD

[MisterMike]

In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
Tsunami Kenpo

When/Where did he say that? I'm going to wager that most of the techniques above the original 154 were not developed by Ed Parker. Same goes for most of the extensions past the original 32 orange belt extensions. They were made up by a few of his senior students, and may have had his stamp of approval, but they weren't developed by the man.

Richard Planas is credited with the first 9/10 of the 154 techniques (Yellow).
Someone else created the staff set.
Form 6 was the last form by Parker. Note the special closing in the final salute. 7 and 8 are weapons forms that some schools do not even teach.

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I'm going to wager that most of the techniques above the original 154 were not developed by Ed Parker. Same goes for most of the extensions past the original 32 orange belt extensions. They were made up by a few of his senior students, and may have had his stamp of approval, but they weren't developed by the man.


I wonder Mike, are you willing to lose some money with that wager? I'd also bet you weren't around when they (the extensions) were being created.

DarK LorD

[kenpoworks]

[QUOTE=MisterMike......Form 6 was the last form by Parker....... [/QUOTE]Hey MisterMike,
are you sure about this, I was originally shown form 7 from a European Senior who"dummied" for Mr. Parker while he was developing the Form, he even gave me a photo copy of his original notes that he made during this time!

The Exstensions, well the last Senior(US), I aked about this said that (this is not verbatum)"they where only bona fide half way through Purple (1st degree BB)".

All this is of course "hearsay", it could be the "truth", but where's the "proof",
what we need is some one who was actually around at the time to post and clarify things a little, wadda ya reckon!

Richard

[Seabrook]

Hey Drifter,

Long Form 7 is done with two sticks and was designed to utilize techniques right out of the system, although there are a few additional techniques that are new.

Long Form 8 is done with two knives, and also utilizes techniques out of the system. There is also a section of the form where the finger set is performed with the knives.


Hope that helps.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Seabrook]

If you count the extensions to the techs, there are 250 total. I was taught the extension is a technique in and of itself and teach it that way as well. Squeezing the Peach is designed for a Bear Hug, Arms Pinned, the catalyst for this tech. is the opponent pulling back. When you have the ext., it can alone be a technique if the catalyst is your opponent is pushing you forward.


DarK LorD
I have always thought of the extensions as the same base techniques with just more added, but looking at them as techniques in and of themselves, makes more sense to me. Thanks Clyde.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Seabrook]

Since we are on the topic of Lee Wedlake, in his book, Kenpo Karate 201, he states that Star Block Set, Kicking Set, Coordination Set, Finger Set, and Two Man Set are the key sets of the system, while Striking Set 1 & 2, Stance Set 1 & 2, Staff Set, Kicking Set 2, Coordination Set 2, Finger Set 2, Long Form 7, and Long Form 8 were approved by Ed Parker, yet he did not require everyone to learn and teach them.


I personally advocate all of the sets and forms. After all, they were all listed in Infinite Insights Volume 5.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)