Originally posted by Goldendragon7



It is an option....... use it if you like or don't worry about it. All depends on how well you want to learn Kenpo I guess. :p

:asian:



:confused:
When, Where, & How
Does someone go about learning the stuff that's been left out of the curriculum, or forgotten material, or older marterial that just might be fun????????

standing with my hands in my pockets, looking at the ground, kicking the dirt around with my shoes. :(

Mr. C.

If you occasionally show seminar tapes at your house...
I suggest that you add an hour to your seminar(s) and show some footage. Maybe at the beginning if it will apply to what you are about to teach.

Mr. Parker Jr did a QnA the night before the 2000 seminar I went to see him at. He has a little bit of video and that was really cool.

However, you can probably enhance the value and cool factor of your seminars if you start of with some footage of Mr. Parker maybe even 15mins would be enough.

Just a thought. PLEASE consider this option when you swing to TX or Bring the Stuff to CAMP!

Since you are not selling the footage or copying the footage I don't think there is a copyright issue involved, but perhaps we can both check with our Atty's to be sure. ;)


I've impressed myself with this idea. I hope you like it. Of course, it is your idea because you already do this at home.
:ubercool:

Originally posted by cdhall

Mr. C.

If you occasionally show seminar tapes at your house...
I suggest that you add an hour to your seminar(s) and show some footage. Maybe at the beginning if it will apply to what you are about to teach.

Mr. Parker Jr did a QnA the night before the 2000 seminar I went to see him at. He has a little bit of video and that was really cool.

However, you can probably enhance the value and cool factor of your seminars if you start of with some footage of Mr. Parker maybe even 15mins would be enough.

Just a thought. PLEASE consider this option when you swing to TX or Bring the Stuff to CAMP!

Since you are not selling the footage or copying the footage I don't think there is a copyright issue involved, but perhaps we can both check with our Atty's to be sure. ;)


I've impressed myself with this idea. I hope you like it. Of course, it is your idea because you already do this at home.
:ubercool:

Gosh, don'tell him that, he'll start charging admission:eek:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



LOL.... well you won't be a spectator for long.... lol but he has a camp list of what you need for the camp http://www.akfkenpo.com/camp/

:asian:

Who is teaching basics? Do you have an idea of their syllabus?


:asian:

Originally posted by cdhall
Since you are not selling the footage........ . ;)


Who said that?.........

;)

Originally posted by RCastillo
Gosh, don'tell him that, he'll start charging admission:eek:


Hey, I never thought of that:shrug: ...... excellent idea......!

:rofl:
:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman
Who is teaching basics? Do you have an idea of their syllabus?


Me.

Stances, blocks, parries, punches, strikes, finger techniques, kicks, foot maneuvers.

pba
moe
poa
drills

:asian:

Do your students wear the belt knot to the side?


:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93
Do your students wear the belt knot to the side?


Yes, that is a custom we follow.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Me.

Stances, blocks, parries, punches, strikes, finger techniques, kicks, foot maneuvers.

pba
moe
poa
drills

:asian:

What do the abreviations stand for?

:asian:

pba proper body alingment
:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

pba proper body alingment
:asian:


the ol' skl eh? :)


:asian:

Kenpo Net Talk:D

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:asian:


Deep subject and I'm coming up dry :rofl: :rofl:


:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93




Deep subject and I'm coming up dry :rofl: :rofl:


:asian:

Mr. Klondike, don't listen to these boobs. Stick with me, I'll lead you in the right direction!:soapbox:

Originally posted by RCastillo



Mr. Klondike, don't listen to these boobs. Stick with me, I'll lead you in the right direction!:soapbox:

Right. Speaking of "Well" if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Castillo lives near a nearly inexhaustible source of undrinkable water!
:rofl:

:D

Originally posted by RCastillo



Mr. Klondike, don't listen to these boobs. Stick with me, I'll lead you in the right direction!:soapbox:
Now That is a scary proposition!

Originally posted by cdhall



Right. Speaking of "Well" if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Castillo lives near a nearly inexhaustible source of undrinkable water!
:rofl:

:D

Yes, our wonderful members of city government have finally realized that they nedd a de-salinization plant for fresh water!(Idiots):soapbox:

Originally posted by Seig


Now That is a scary proposition!

NO, I 'm not Michael Jackson, so I ain't scary! I am though, just good looking, wise, and a leader!:D

Originally posted by RCastillo



Yes, our wonderful members of city government have finally realized that they nedd a de-salinization plant for fresh water!(Idiots):soapbox:
I was suggesting the same thing when I was living in FLorida because they are always screaming there is a water shortage.

Originally posted by RCastillo



Yes, our wonderful members of city government have finally realized that they nedd a de-salinization plant for fresh water!(Idiots):soapbox:
I knew it, he has been drinking Mezquel instead of water!:rofl:

Boy could I go off on that subject right now. But no one would
read my post, it'd be too long, and wouldn't interest most! :)

Just a note.

Canada has most of the world's supply of fresh water.

Heh...

Originally posted by GouRonin

Just a note.

Canada has most of the world's supply of fresh water.

Heh...

well of course it does........everyone knows that crap runs down hill. That's why the water here tastes so bad, its the runoff from canada. hehehehehe

Michael

Originally posted by AvPKenpo



well of course it does........everyone knows that crap runs down hill. That's why the water here tastes so bad, its the runoff from canada. hehehehehe

Michael


EVERYBODY HERE, DUCK!!!:redeme:

Be nice to us Canadians, or we'll take away your hockey, basket ball and good beer.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Be nice to us Canadians, or we'll take away your hockey, basket ball and good beer.

K, you can keep the beer :barf: but you have got to leave the hockey:cheers: .

Michael

for me?

:asian:

Have you ever deliberately changed anything in a technique or form based on something you've found to be "more" logical. Kicking set is the obvious example, but I wondered if you had done it with any other parts of the material?

jb:asian:

In the past I've had discussions with Seniors about the system and it seems to me that the first pass through the system is an opportunity to develop a base understanding of the base concept, but the meat and potatoes come during the 2,3 & 4 pass through the system. Both you and Doc Chape'l seem to do the same thing in this regard. Each time peeling back another layer to the system (or adding depending on how you look at it). Could you please discribe those layers or phases of the system that you teach? and how you would characterize each.

Thanks, jb:asian:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Have you ever deliberately changed anything in a technique or form based on something you've found to be "more" logical. Kicking set is the obvious example, but I wondered if you had done it with any other parts of the material?


hee hee......... Well, this is an excellent question. First off, I didn't change the Kicking Sets 4th wall, Mr. Parker did. My student did in fact discover a unique point that then in turn I brought to Mr. Parker for evaluation. He liked the point and promptly made the adjustment.

I for one don't like to "alter" the "BASE" system. For one I can always do that in the what if Phase or using the Kenpo Tool "Equation formula" to modify a movement for some reason. If I discovered a "serious" flaw that called for improvement, my protocol would be to contact several Seniors and run it by them for scrutiny. I don't want to make any snap alterations that may have long range implications that I possibly didn't see. So before I would personally change anything I would pass it across the board, (one good reason for a Senior Council among others).

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



hee hee......... Well, this is an excellent question. ).

:asian:

Finally...:rofl:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
In the past I've had discussions with Seniors about the system and it seems to me that the first pass through the system is an opportunity to develop a base understanding of the base concept, but the meat and potatoes come during the 2,3 & 4 pass through the system. Both you and Doc Chape'l seem to do the same thing in this regard. Each time peeling back another layer to the system (or adding depending on how you look at it). Could you please discribe those layers or phases of the system that you teach? and how you would characterize each.


I can't speak for others but I myself utilize the 4 layers as different phases of maturity something I also refer to as (committing to "The Process") ......

1st Phase... would be the infant or foundational phase where the foundation and coordination is developed along with planting the seeds for later harvest.

2nd Phase... is the cultivation phase where you continually water and fertilize the crop introducing new components into the soil at as slow but steady pace all the while tending and weeding the growth .......

3rd Phase... is the near mature student that now has a good grasp on the material and the plant is producing fruit but is still in need of protection and knowledge to warn against the "bugs and weeds of life". Continual nurturing and more food and sun needed here to bring the plant to full maturity...... history, understanding where we came from - where we are - and a look into where we have yet to go............

4th Phase... The flight to freedom phase..... the foundation completed the vitamins and minerals all fell into place.... the plant is now mature and on his own..... he remembers his roots and yet is ready to explore new horizons... now at an advanced point of view and always on the look out for new and different points of view to reference his training with. Looking for innovative ways to improve what he learned and feels a sense of responsibility to pass on more than what he learned and with a higher degree of quality to keep the chain stronger not weaker. Till the new soil and recondition it for an even more beneficial and productive crop.. Forever seeking advanced knowledge.... forever the student.........

:asian:

Why the change from the eye poke to a palm heel after the outward handsword?

Are there any other techniques that were changed like this?


:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93
Why the change from the eye poke to a palm heel after the outward handsword?


Who said there was a change here?

Here is the way we do that section..............


FIVE SWORDS (Front right step through roundhouse punch)

..........
2. Immediately strike to the right side of your opponent's neck with a right outward handsword. (This action should help to nullify the Height, Width, and Depth Zones of your opponent.)
3. Pivot into a right forward bow (facing 12:00), as you execute


- a left five-finger thrust (palm down) to your opponent's eyes, --


and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up). (The effect of this poke should snap your opponent's head back and away from you.)
4. Having your opponent's head to move away from you, and his midsection to jut forward, take advantage of this anticipated response by (1) pivoting into a right neutral bow, (2) executing a right uppercut punch to your opponent's stomach, as (3) your left hand becomes a COCKING CHECK (guarding horizontally.........

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up)

How come when I wrote that in one of my explanations I got 'Blah Blah you obviously don't do EPAK have you never even heard of point of origin' from Clyde?

Ian.

Originally posted by satans.barber

How come when I wrote that in one of my explanations I got 'Blah Blah you obviously don't do EPAK have you never even heard of point of origin' from Clyde?

Ian.

I have no idea what you are talking about...... wrote what?

and yes, I DO DO EPAK, I learned directly from Ed Parker, did you?
LOL, and I knew of point of Origin befor Clyde was even in Kenpo.:) What has that got to do with the statement?

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


I have no idea what you are talking about...... wrote what?


Wrote what I quoted above:

"and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up)"

I was just saying, when I wrote that in one of my explanations Clyde seemed to think I was writing it down poorly and it couldn't possibly be EPAK, and nobody disagreed with him; yet it's the way the EPAK people are doing 5 Swords...

Just seems a little contradictory to me.

Ian.

Originally posted by satans.barber
Wrote what I quoted above:

"and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up)"

I was just saying, when I wrote that in one of my explanations Clyde seemed to think I was writing it down poorly and it couldn't possibly be EPAK, and nobody disagreed with him; yet it's the way the EPAK people are doing 5 Swords...

Just seems a little contradictory to me.



First of all, What Clyde or any other Kenpo Individual says has nothing to do with what I personally do or do not do. If Clyde disagreed with whatever you were talking about, just because I nor anyone else came into the conversation does not mean that I agree or disagree (I didn't comment), that's all.

My response was to another individual about the fingers, but even so...... there are possibly different minor takes on 5 swords (in this case the specific technique we are talking about), execution. This is just my base application and explanation based upon Ed Parkers journals that I follow.

I would be more than happy to give you my opinion on what it is that you are doing if you would like ....... just ask a specific question, so we can be on the same page and start from ground 0.

:asian:

I asked the question about 5 swords because I learned differently.

I was taught it this, by 2 different instructors:

After the block do a right outward handsword; then a left palm heel to chin; right upset punch to solar plexus; left outward handsword to left jaw hinge; right downward handsword to back of neck.

I never knew about the finger strikes until I read about it and I had thought that Mr. Parker had changed it. My current instructor was talking about it and had said that he taught with the palm heel to avoid everyone poking eyes out. Just thought I'd get GD's take on it.

Many people change the techniques from time to time for different reasons............. all could still work effectively.....
:)

:asian:

that's the way I do it........;)

Like I told one of my students last night, now you have a variation in your arsenal.:cool:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



First of all, What Clyde or any other Kenpo Individual says has nothing to do with what I personally do or do not do. If Clyde disagreed with whatever you were talking about, just because I nor anyone else came into the conversation does not mean that I agree or disagree (I didn't comment), that's all.

My response was to another individual about the fingers, but even so...... there are possibly different minor takes on 5 swords (in this case the specific technique we are talking about), execution. This is just my base application and explanation based upon Ed Parkers journals that I follow.

I would be more than happy to give you my opinion on what it is that you are doing if you would like ....... just ask a specific question, so we can be on the same page and start from ground 0.

:asian:

I'm not disagreeing, I don't think I worded my grievence very well, never mind, doesn't matter anyway!

Forget I mentioned it.

Ian.

If I did misunderstand you.. please restate that which you wish to discuss again, and we can take another stab at it.

:)

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Many people change the techniques from time to time for different reasons............. all could still work effectively.....
:)

:asian:

that's the way I do it........;)

Five swords was taught to me with a left thrusting heel palm to the chin. The reason for that was "because" in actual combat you may get a four finger poke to the forhead, or side of face or etc. it depends upon the reaction of the attacker. Now to keep from jamming fingers it was taught as the heel palm strike. Yet we can not forget the name of this technique Five Swords. I personally like the heel palm and trust it just a little bit more but there's nothing wrong with the original version:). This is just my take.
Jason Farnsworth

on your recent Black Belt promotion. Next step!!

Now I can hammer on you more since you are a higher rank!

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

on your recent Black Belt promotion. Next step!!

Now I can hammer on you more since you are a higher rank!

:asian:

Thank you Mr. C. that means a lot to me. I hope that I can just keep up with the questions back at me.:D Remember also I felt one of your not so hard punches and strikes :( :eek: I'm just a little guy you can't break me in half Heather might not want to talk to you any more.:D
Thanks again,
Jason Farnsworth

MR. C :


REGARDING THE PREVIOUS POSTS ON THE 5 SWORDS,
i'M A LITTLE SURPRISED THAT THERE IS A LACK OF USING
A VERTICAL 4 FINGER THRUST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS ON THE
THIRD MOVE. 5 SWORDS...5 OPEN HAND STRIKES...
mY WEB OF KNOWLEDGE OVER THE YEARS HAS BECOME A
COBWEB OF SENILTY NOT ABLE TO DISCERN NEW IDEAS
FROM THE ANCIENT SCRIBES.

Originally posted by BKSB

MR. C :


REGARDING THE PREVIOUS POSTS ON THE 5 SWORDS,
i'M A LITTLE SURPRISED THAT THERE IS A LACK OF USING
A VERTICAL 4 FINGER THRUST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS ON THE
THIRD MOVE. 5 SWORDS...5 OPEN HAND STRIKES...
mY WEB OF KNOWLEDGE OVER THE YEARS HAS BECOME A
COBWEB OF SENILTY NOT ABLE TO DISCERN NEW IDEAS
FROM THE ANCIENT SCRIBES.

Please detail a little more..... Im not sure I understand you ........

:asian:

A VERTICAL 4 FINGER THRUST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS ON THE ON THE THIRD MOVE

Fourth move
1. doulbe handswords to the attacking arm
2. rt. out ward handsword to the neck
3 left 4 finger thrust to the eyes
4. right uppercut to the solar plexus, or xyphoid process- You could potentially break your fingers if not conditioned is probably why most don't use the spear hand strike these days. Potentially lethal that is for sure though
5. move up the circle and executle a left out ward handsword to the left side of the neck.
6. right inward diaganally downward handsword to back of neck.

So six open hand strikes one closed if you do it that way otherwise 7 open hand strikes... It is my understanding the tek was originally called slicing the sun and ended with the strike to the solar plexus with a spearhand. Later changed to five swords with 2 additional strikes + extension.

And that even the Inward bock was done open handed.

:confused:

Maybe that was just another variation, or a different technique all together.

Hi

I passed my black belt and i know i have a long way to go. But i think you are doing a great job as you are not only helping the beginners with their questions you are helping people like me. You are helping me learn about questions that i might get asked by the people i get to teach.
I was wondering as it was mentioned was do you know short form 4 and if so do you have a written version as i would like to know what it is as i knew there was one but it is not taught in my system.

Well thanks

From what I've heard, there are many Short 4 forms, as lots of people have felt the need for easing students into Form 4, but there is no "official" short 4.

Peace,
Scott

The opinions of the poster do not reflect anyone elses thoughts other than the poster..... :D

It is my understanding that Five Swords was originally taught with the finger poke following the outward handsword to the neck.

Later... along came Jim Mitchell. I beleive Mr. Mitchell inputted the heelpalm strike. So it became as the heelpalm strike drove the opponents head back the fingers extended into his eyes.

I feel that because Mr. Parker encouraged experimentation he allowed it to be taught that way. He must have approved in some way b/c I have seen many do it that way.

I personally don't do the heelpalm, I use the finger poke. If you heelpalm the chin your opponent, his head is tilted back and the eye poke is lost. I do however teach my kid students to do a heelpalm, for safety and control issues. I also show the adults initially with a heelpalm until their control becomes better , than we drop it and go with the finger poke.

:asian:

I have always done a eye shot........

Mitchell had nothing to do with it.

In fact, after the eye shot Mr. Parker showed me a minor insert that I thought was cool which was an immediate heelpalm (downward) with the left (retracting) hand while the right uppercut punch was in route.

I thought that was cool.....

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I have always done a eye shot........

Mitchell had nothing to do with it.

In fact, after the eye shot Mr. Parker showed me a minor insert that I thought was cool which was an immediate heelpalm (downward) with the left (retracting) hand while the right uppercut punch was in route.

I thought that was cool.....

:asian:

I agree! That is cool!!

if not..... lets hear from you.....

:asian:

I have always done a eye shot........Mitchell had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm, I have seen tapes with Mr. Parker narrating step by step as Mitchell did all the techniques and the heel palm was in there.

:asian:

I may have the very same tape..... it was given to me by Mr. Parker, but I was not to follow it verbatim. He showed me the way I explained above, and thats how I still do it. I have seen many Tracy guys do that move that way.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I may have the very same tape..... it was given to me by Mr. Parker, but I was not to follow it verbatim. He showed me the way I explained above, and thats how I still do it. I have seen many Tracy guys do that move that way.

:asian:

About time you mentioned me!:rofl:

Did Mr. Parker ever strap on the gloves and do some sparring with you guys?



:asian:

he never wore golves........ LOL it was pain pain and more pain.....

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

he never wore golves........ LOL it was pain pain and more pain.....

:asian:
He must have had hands like iron, beating on all those thick skulls:D

Hot Iron....... it stings........


:asian:

Is short form 4 worth learning and is it good, Do you know where i can get a couple of the form written up or even on video.

Originally posted by kenpokid

Is short form 4 worth learning and is it good, Do you know where i can get a couple of the form written up or even on video.

The Tracy's have the form on video.

:eek:

Maybe this can get you thinking...Short 4 (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=2890)

just like short 5 and 6 as well.
:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

just like short 5 and 6 as well.
:asian:

Never heard of 5&6. Could it be you're holding out on us Golden One?:eek:

You just read it.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

You just read it.

:asian:

Where?:confused:

Mr. Conatser,

Are you still teaching Book Set, Sil Lum 6, Mass Attacks, Kenpo Spear Set, Sa Quan, and Tiger and Crane as part of your required curriculum?

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Mr. Conatser,
Are you still teaching Book Set, Sil Lum 6, Mass Attacks, Kenpo Spear Set, Sa Quan, and Tiger and Crane as part of your required curriculum? Michael UKS-Texas


No........... optional only!


:asian:

I was going to ask this question on another thread, but decided to post here in hopes of not getting lost in that disscussion.

It's about the sets, specifically all the #2 sets, Kicking set 2, Finger set 2 etc.. When were they come up with and do you know who came up with them? Prehaps you also know who came up with the 1st sets as well?



:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93
When & who came up with all the # 2 sets; Stance, Blocking, Striking, Finger, Kicking, & Coordination set 2?


I believe that Jim Mitchell who was from San Diego at the time had a main hand in them with Mr. Parker. These were in the early 80's if my memory serves me correct.


Perhaps you also know who came up with the 1st sets as well?


To my knowledge Mr. Parker came up with the general ideas for all of them based upon the categories of Basics. He had the Star Block exercise (Now called the Blocking Set #1) and the Finger Set back in the 60's. Tom Kelly developed the Kicking Set # 1, and Chuck Sullivan penned the Staff Set # 1.

Jim Mitchell (who I have had personal differences with as well as other seniors) could also have been involved in the remaining # 1 sets. I can't be absolutely sure, but it really doesn't matter.

I can say this however.... "regardless" of who developed them.... NONE - None would have made it into the system had Mr. Parker not thoroughly reviewed them and accepted them as good training additions to the curriculum. He put his "life" into his System and he was not about to "spoil" it with worthless training drills.

That you can take to the bank!!

:asian:

Done :)



:asian:

Mr. Conatser,

Did Mr. Parker ever teach something one way and then later explicitly retract that lesson and say it was "wrong"? Or would he just say as he evolved his system that a new way was "better" ? Any examples? I am interested in how the need for change was discovered and how changes were implemented.


Thanks,

KenpoChip

Originally posted by kenpochip

Mr. Conatser,

Did Mr. Parker ever teach something one way and then later explicitly retract that lesson and say it was "wrong"? Or would he just say as he evolved his system that a new way was "better" ? Any examples? I am interested in how the need for change was discovered and how changes were implemented.


Thanks,

KenpoChip

This is not my QnA but Mr. Parker Jr. discusses this in The Journey which you can get from Mr. Conatser by the way.
:D

Originally posted by kenpochip
Did Mr. Parker ever teach something one way and then later explicitly retract that lesson and say it was "wrong"? Or would he just say as he evolved his system that a new way was "better" ? Any examples? I am interested in how the need for change was discovered and how changes were implemented.

No, I can't recall him ever retracting in that fashion and can't recall him saying "wrong".

Ok here is an example of one such "change" or evolution for Kicking Set #1..........

One of my students of the time came to me after much study on the Kicking set # 1. He explained to me what he had discovered and why..... and then asked if there was a reason for this......... After careful examination of what he told me, I called Mr. Parker and explained to him the scenario and offered an adjustment on the 4th wall of kicking set. Mr. Parker asked me a few questions about it and why we wanted to "adjust it" and told me he would get back to me.

A couple of days later he called me back and told me that after examining the fourth wall further that I had a good idea and he was going to change it to what my student has suggested.

I was shocked but pleased. From then on.... the fourth wall starts with a roundhouse instead of the original front kick making each wall start with a different kick.... wall 1 - front kick, wall 2 - knife edge kick, wall 3 - rear kick, wall 4 - roundhouse kick thus each wall starts with the four base kicks to our system.

:asian:

Mr. Conatser,

Thanks for the good example.

Are any changes like that still happening in your organization?
Would this sort of thing be something that the AKSC might in the future decide to coordinate, or is that too low level a detail?


KenpoChip

Originally posted by kenpochip
Are any changes like that still happening in your organization?


Yes, what better way to make improvements or adjustments if needed!


Would this sort of thing be something that the AKSC might in the future decide to coordinate, or is that too low level a detail?


No, never too low level. Yes, it would be great to have the AKSC develop a broad base of baisics that could be considered by many yet still adjustable........ Let's hope we can get it together.

:asian:

What's the difference between Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo and Ed Parker's American Kenpo?

Originally posted by Dun Ringill
What's the difference between Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo and Ed Parker's American Kenpo?


Depending upon who or what area of the country you are in but in general.......

Chinese Kenpo -- was a term used in the 60's and 70's (mostly by different instructors not Ed Parker) to describe Kenpo in it's early stages (many times it was rooted in Tracy curriculums and contained Chinese forms due to lack of Parker forms) of Ed Parker development and evolution.

American Kenpo was a term started by Ed Parker himself, in the early 80's to his updated Kenpo system and distinguish it from others that had broken away and formed their own groups.

:asian:

Sir,

Thank you for your reply. I enjoy reading the history and the evolution of Kenpo from all aspects. I've really enjoyed your current thread and find it incredibly valuable that you have opened yourself up to questions on this forum.

Oss,

Dun Ringill

the latest round of questions?

:asian:

Hi Mr C

Do you target nerve points when you execute techniques. I am interested in nerve points and wonder what is the best way to learn about them.

Cheers Dominic

first you need to learn all the points which takes some background in accupuncture so find a good source and start your journey understanding the meridians and hot spots.

Contact Steve LaBounty he can give you some good starting reference sources.....

:asian:

Thank you Mr C

I will contact Mr LaBounty.

When doing a simple forward vertical punch to the face, you step
forward and execute the punch before landing your foot, correct?

This is utilizing forward momentum, but is it also marriage of
gravity? You're going forward, yet down .. or does it even play
a part at all?

Originally posted by Kirk
When doing a simple forward vertical punch to the face, you step
forward and execute the punch before landing your foot, correct?


You can step or you can simply rotate..... it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Either way you should NOT complete the punch prior to the foot action.... thus making separate movements but rather combine the body, footwork and arm action simultaneously. There are many variations and timings for this type of move, this is just one scenario.

Originally posted by Kirk
This is utilizing forward momentum, but is it also marriage of
gravity? You're going forward, yet down .. or does it even play
a part at all?


Yes, you are going forward and down but if your punch has reached the target prior to the foot landing then you only have forward momentum not both.

:asian:

Well, that answers that question, thank you. :asian:

Why is Mr. Planas' nickname 'Huk'?

Ian.

Originally posted by satans.barber

Why is Mr. Planas' nickname 'Huk'?

Ian.

Oooh, good question!

Why is Mr Jackson's nickname "Bulk"? - Oops.... never mind!:rofl:

Mr. C,

When did you realize that Kenpo would be what you do for your lifes passion? What point in your training or life where you when you came to that decision?

Reguards

B Hunter

Dear Ladies, gentleman and the rest of you. I cannot say wether or not Mr. Conatser will be online or not for a minimum of another 24 hours. Mr. Conatser is currently in the state of Virginia, which tomorrow I will make a quest to free him from. We should be able to smuggle him back to Arizona by Sunday or so. I will try to get him to sign on and say Howdy some time tomorrow from Casa/Chez Seigel

Originally posted by satans.barber
Why is Mr. Planas' nickname 'Huk'?
Ian.

It is a nickname for a Filipino.

:asian:

Originally posted by brianhunter
Mr. C,
When did you realize that Kenpo would be what you do for your lifes passion? What point in your training or life where you when you came to that decision?
Reguards B Hunter


When I got my school and started teaching 60 hour weeks and living 7 day Kenpo weeks and gave up on everything else. lol

:asian:

Originally posted by C.E.Jackson
Why is Mr Jackson's nickname "Bulk"?


He loves Burger King! :rofl:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



He loves Burger King! :rofl:

and McDonalds
and Hardies
and Dairy Queen
and...
:rofl:

Originally posted by Seig

Dear Ladies, gentleman and the rest of you. I cannot say wether or not Mr. Conatser will be online or not for a minimum of another 24 hours. Mr. Conatser is currently in the state of Virginia, which tomorrow I will make a quest to free him from. We should be able to smuggle him back to Arizona by Sunday or so. I will try to get him to sign on and say Howdy some time tomorrow from Casa/Chez Seigel

Ya shouda kept him over there, so that I can free up the Southwest for myself!:D

No way, he has the SouthWest and I'm working on the east coast. Although, we're not sure we want Texas, we may allow you to keep it. But I would not count on it.....

Originally posted by Seig

No way, he has the SouthWest and I'm working on the east coast. Although, we're not sure we want Texas, we may allow you to keep it. But I would not count on it.....

It time to go "Underground". The battle for Texas is beginning!:eek:

How does Trejo say it....

"Step to the best..."


So says the natural born killa...

What is club set? Where did it come from? How does it differ from any other set? & how did it get in the curriculum?
:D
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
What is club set # 1?
Jason Farnsworth

A beginning Kenpo Club Set

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Where did it come from?
Jason Farnsworth

Mr. Parker

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
How does it differ from any other set? & how did it get in the curriculum?:D Salute, Jason Farnsworth


Club Set # 1, is a little more basic and definition oriented, the 7 is more application oriented.

Mr. Parker added it to 1st Black "around" 1989.

:asian:

Originally posted by RCastillo
It time to go "Underground". The battle for Texas is beginning!:eek:


You could run but you can't hide from me. Besides I like you!:rofl:

I just may have to put a short leash on you.:rofl:

:asian:

Why in form 6 do we cover so oddly from broken rod to defying the rod? I know it's to show the angles of the x pattern but it's such an odd movement for kenpo. My guess is it's because we haven't cover stepped like this yet.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Why in form 6 do we cover so oddly from broken rod to defying the rod? I know it's to show the angles of the x pattern but it's such an odd movement for kenpo. My guess is it's because we haven't cover stepped like this yet. Salute,Jason Farnsworth

Look closely at the angles and compare these to the other gun attacks.

direction
method
path
dimension

:asian:

I had made up my mind to read this entire thread, but about forty minutes later, I changed my mind. I have homework to do! (I'll read it later, I promise!)
Mr. Conaster, do you remember me? We chit-chatted for awhile in Las Vegas this June, you introduced me to Jade (Jayde?) Parker and referred me to this site.
Anyway, real questions: my school broke off from the Tracy lineage long ago and kind of sort of went independent. Now my instructor has vaguely expressed a desire to get "Parkerized," as I suppose the nomemclature goes. What is involved in such a transition? Would it merely be learning what we don't know and changing the cirriculuum? Are there big fees to pay beyond educational expenses? Can I still practice Tiger-Crane, and Book-set and Setting Sun katas and any non-EPKK semi-Kenpo techniques I feel are legit or useful?
What was the whole deal with the Tracy brothers and their split from Mr. Parker? Was it just "all about the Benjamins" or what? We talked about it a tiny bit in Vegas, but it seemed like you were sort of holding back, like maybe you didn't want to hurt my feelings. ;) I don't know much about the political aspects of these things, I just know what I see (or believe what I feel:) ) and the whole lineage thing doesn't really seem all that important to me (you know, it's not your instructor's instructor who teaches you, except maybe later if you're conscientitous enough).
How many branches of Kenpo from Master Parker are there? I know Tracy Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, obviously EPKK, but what else? It seems that there's a lot of political jockeying, what's the whole deal?
Anyway, Mr. Conaster, I think this thread is an awesome idea and thank you again for referring me to this site. I enjoyed speaking with you in LV (I especially enjoyed your rendition of the Bruce Lee/student scene from "Enter the Dragon." Ever catch the uncut one? He's talking with his master, and the master goes, "What is the highest technique you aspire to?" and Bruce goes, "To have no technique." I bet Master Parker would have had fun ripping THAT one apart (as per Infinite Insights Vol. 1).
Anyway, thanks!!!:asian:

Mr C.,

Who the heck is this Sam Ting guy???????;)


This one is gonna be an all weekend thread to read up and absorb.


Newbie question (with utmost respect :asian: )


I recently witnessed a Senior Kenpo Instructor demonstrate a flurry of open hand techniques which distinctly resembled Penchat Silat strikes.

In the Kenpo lineage, is there any distinct link with this style as in early cross training with Penjakers?? possibly a Hawaiian island era influence?

or is it simply a parallel evolution?


humbley,

I have a question about William K S chow "Thunderbolt", I was reading about him somewhere and I came across the fact that he made it to 15th degree blackbelt. My instructor in the Tracy system holds a 10th degree and he says he can't go any higher. Did K S learn moves that know one else ever learned? Thank you for helping me learn about kenpo

Originally posted by practiceisnotperfect

I have a question about William K S chow "Thunderbolt", I was reading about him somewhere and I came across the fact that he made it to 15th degree blackbelt. My instructor in the Tracy system holds a 10th degree and he says he can't go any higher. Did K S learn moves that know one else ever learned? Thank you for helping me learn about kenpo
My understanding of this may be flawed and over simplified; but here goes. Professor Chow felt that since Mr. Parker had been his student and orginally certified by him and the fact that Mr. Parker was a 10th, that he (Chow) should out rank Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker then explained to P. Chow that yes, he did originally certify him but the system was his own, not P. Chow's.

Originally posted by kenposcum
I had made up my mind to read this entire thread, but about forty minutes later, I changed my mind. I have homework to do! (I'll read it later, I promise!)
Mr. Conaster, do you remember me? We chit-chatted for awhile in Las Vegas this June, you introduced me to Jade (Jayde?) Parker and referred me to this site.
Anyway, real questions: my school broke off from the Tracy lineage long ago and kind of sort of went independent. Now my instructor has vaguely expressed a desire to get "Parkerized," as I suppose the nomemclature goes. What is involved in such a transition? Would it merely be learning what we don't know and changing the cirriculuum? Are there big fees to pay beyond educational expenses? Can I still practice Tiger-Crane, and Book-set and Setting Sun katas and any non-EPKK semi-Kenpo techniques I feel are legit or useful?
What was the whole deal with the Tracy brothers and their split from Mr. Parker? Was it just "all about the Benjamins" or what? We talked about it a tiny bit in Vegas, but it seemed like you were sort of holding back, like maybe you didn't want to hurt my feelings. ;) I don't know much about the political aspects of these things, I just know what I see (or believe what I feel:) ) and the whole lineage thing doesn't really seem all that important to me (you know, it's not your instructor's instructor who teaches you, except maybe later if you're conscientitous enough).
How many branches of Kenpo from Master Parker are there? I know Tracy Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, obviously EPKK, but what else? It seems that there's a lot of political jockeying, what's the whole deal?
Anyway, Mr. Conaster, I think this thread is an awesome idea and thank you again for referring me to this site. I enjoyed speaking with you in LV (I especially enjoyed your rendition of the Bruce Lee/student scene from "Enter the Dragon." Ever catch the uncut one? He's talking with his master, and the master goes, "What is the highest technique you aspire to?" and Bruce goes, "To have no technique." I bet Master Parker would have had fun ripping THAT one apart (as per Infinite Insights Vol. 1).
Anyway, thanks!!!:asian:


Wow, a lot of very good questions. I will email you and discuss the different questions.

:asian:

We're told Mr Parker developed 3 systems. What year did the
current, 154 (155) based system come about?

1979-1982 as best as I can remember.....

but there were NO 3 systems...... each were extensions and evolutions of the others. They were built upon from the beginning, just refined.

:asian:

This is a Great Thread.

I think somewhere in here are the Master Key Techniques which have recently been discussed and posted again on another thread.

If you have not read this thread you should go through and read it. At one point I printed it and put it in my notebook.

Mr. C is a great resource. :cool:

Thanks Doug for making me aware of where the famous faq was. I heard of it a while ago but couldn't find it. :(

Lucía

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Look closely at the angles and compare these to the other gun attacks.

direction
method
path
dimension

:asian:


O.K. I know it's 2 months later but you are talking about the actual self-defense techniques themselves? In, out, up, down?

Sir,

Who were/are the most influencial individuals in your kenpo 'walk' and why? I realize that some of this may be personal and anything you are willing to share would be greatly appriciated.

Oss!

Originally posted by student
Sir,

Who were/are the most influencial individuals in your kenpo 'walk' and why? I realize that some of this may be personal and anything you are willing to share would be greatly appriciated.

Oss!

Are you asking me????

I am asking Mr. Conaster.

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Thanks Doug for making me aware of where the famous faq was. I heard of it a while ago but couldn't find it. :(

Lucía

I had trouble finding it myself. It was one of the most popular threads for a long time. I made that post to bring it back up to the surface where we could all readily find it again.

I was afraid it might have been lost after "the crash" but I'm glad it is still here. I need to read through it again before I ask another question though. :eek:

Originally posted by student
Sir, Who were/are the most influencial individuals in your kenpo 'walk' and why? I realize that some of this may be personal and anything you are willing to share would be greatly appriciated. Oss!


Well, I have to say that many had influence on me, but the "most" influential were.........
1) my original instructor, Lonny Coots for starting me off with a great foundation.
2) my friend, Tom Riskas for showing me how to learn from Ed Parker.
3) my next instructor, Steve LaBounty for inserting noble leadership and guidance, a unique historical perspective and a true training attitude.
4) the founder of our system, Ed Parker for teaching me all the "details and fine tuning" of the system.

Like I said before there were many more for one reason or another that had an effect on me (for that, read my bio on the
IKKO website. www.ikko.com

:asian:

If you get the chance to talk with Mr. Conaster in person or by phone, it's a good choice. Alot of history, knowledge and a straight up and good guy.

Mr. Conaster, did you ever get to Seig's for the seminar?

Bill Smith

Originally posted by Bill Smith
Mr. Conaster, did you ever get to Seig's for the seminar?


I have had plenty of personal challenges taking care of my aged mother at home. She is going down rapidly and a lot of work. So, I could not get out for an extra visit befor our next Seminar in March of this year. Hopefully, things will lighten up soon and I will be out there at least 4 times a year.

Thanks for the kind comments.

:asian:

Sorry to hear that and I wish your mother the best and for a fast turn around, family always comes first.

Yours in Kenpo,
Bill Smith

Same here GD, my best wishes for her recovery.

Lucía

Just a normal part of life!

Thanks again for your thoughts!

:asian:

May I ask the moderators to have this thread sticking in the forum?

I find it quite interesting and instructive:asian:

What's on your mind?

:asian:

I asked Huk, and he said it's a topic of MANY varying opinions, so
just asking for yours ... how did the name "reverse punch" come
about?

Originally posted by Kirk
I asked Huk, and he said it's a topic of MANY varying opinions, so just asking for yours ... how did the name "reverse punch" come about?


I already answered that just 5 days ago on another thread.... but here it is again......

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3295&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Now do 10 pushups for not paying attention before!!

:D

Circa 1970 it was a "Reverse Punch" and a "Lunge Punch", the only two puches we had. Lunging was usually with lead hand as you steped through into a front stance (although it could be done with the back also.)

The Reverse was only as Dennis Conatser described it.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

Mr. C,

When you started studying with SGM Parker you were already a 3rd Dan/Degree (under the NCKKA). How long did it take you to work back through the system to learn the IKKA version of Kenpo to Black? to 3rd Black? Mr. Duffy mentioned to me that one time he attended a Huk Planas instructor seminar on forms and everything was pretty similar until they got to form Four and up. He said at that point the application of technique was dramatically different from what he had learned in the NCKKA. Did you find that same kind of experience? Also you had students at that time, did you find it easier learning and retaining the info by teaching it? What did you teach, say a Brown belt, while you were learning the first few belts the IKKA way?

jb

Mr. C,

There has been a great deal of discussion about 24 vs 16 tech system. Were you brought up pre-32 or 24 system technique? Or were you under the 24 when you converted over to the IKKA? My question is if you had your choice which would you have preferred? Also if the 16 tech system had existed and you were brought up under it, what differences in your skill level and understand of the system do you think would exist today?

jb

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. C, When you started studying with SGM Parker you were already a 3rd Dan/Degree (under the NCKKA).
jb

No, I was a 2nd Degree.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
How long did it take you to work back through the system to learn the IKKA version of Kenpo to Black? to 3rd Black?
jb

Hell, I'm still learning it!!! LOL, Mr. Parker promoted me to 3rd after 3 years studying with him.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. Duffy mentioned to me that one time he attended a Huk Planas instructor seminar on forms and everything was pretty similar until they got to form Four and up. He said at that point the application of technique was dramatically different from what he had learned in the NCKKA. Did you find that same kind of experience?
jb

Pretty much, but there were many, many subtle differences throughout all the forms. They may have "looked" the same, but what he showed me within them was dramatically expanded.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
You had students at that time, did you find it easier learning and retaining the info by teaching it?
jb

Absolutely!

Originally posted by jbkenpo
What did you teach, say a Brown belt, while you were learning the first few belts the IKKA way?
jb

I started at the bottom with Mr. Parker, (in fact I had to make him look at my basics and all the lower rank material..... LOL) I wanted to show him what I had and if it was correct we could move on... if not.... teach me. I wanted to learn his system from the bottom up!

I in turn did the same with all my students (white thru Black) and I students in every belt categories. It was a little hard at first but I managed to explain to them what they were getting and why, Very, very few were disappointed. The result were knowledgeable, skilled and well trained instructors to carry on the Art.

No regrets.

:asian:

Mr. C,

I remember us having a discussion about the type of people that take "Karate", and I don't know that it is as true as it once was. Some people actually see it as a form of exercise, but it is true that much of the interest is born out of some form of personal insecurity. My question is what type of person makes for a good student in your opinion? Is it heart? Are there certain attributes? Can you turn a person into a good student? If it is a commercial shop, is a good student one that makes the monthly payments regardless of commitment?

jb

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. C,
There has been a great deal of discussion about 24 vs 16 tech system. Were you brought up pre-32 or 24 system technique?
jb

I was originally under the 32 system

Originally posted by jbkenpo
If you had your choice which would you have preferred?
jb

Definitely the 16

Originally posted by jbkenpo
If the 16 tech system had existed and you were brought up under it, what differences in your skill level and understand of the system do you think would exist today?
jb

First off, the number of techniques that one learns is not so important as the method/manner in which you are instructed, as well as the skills and knowledge of the person who is actually guiding you. My development came from the leadership of my instructors at various critical times of my journey. In the beginning mental skills were not as important as the physical skills, then as a brown belt competitive and instructional skills were necessary and thus started, then as a black belt the flower further blossomed with deep supporting knowledge which filled in areas that may have been lacking prior. Now, continual research and study is a constant necessity to update or develop newer or greater understanding of the old.

:asian:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. C,
I remember us having a discussion about the type of people that take "Karate", and I don't know that it is as true as it once was. Some people actually see it as a form of exercise, but it is true that much of the interest is born out of some form of personal insecurity.

My question is what type of person makes for a good student in your opinion? Is it heart? Are there certain attributes?
jb

There are several types of "good students" but in my humble opinion I define one as:

Committed to the Art
Attends regularly
Practices & works hard on what is shown to them
Maintains a positive attitude
Always is interested in what is going on
Helps others when possible
Keeps commitments or arranges for alternatives
Makes measurable progress in reasonable time

These are the main characteristics I look for.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Can you turn a person into a good student?
jb

No. I can only assist the student and guide the way, I am not there to force-feed and "make" them do anything. If they are interested, listen, follow my guidance, and do the appreciate practice that is necessary for advancement, they can awaken, make progress, and develop the hidden skills/talents that they already possess within themselves.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
If it is a commercial studio, is a good student one that makes the monthly payments regardless of commitment?
jb

NOPE! I have had several students that have either paid in full or make all their payments on time, but are the worst or most disappointing students that I have had. I end up wasting time on wondering where they are or feeling guilty that I'm not giving them their moneys worth. Some of my best students, paid very little money in exchange for "working" for their lessons, they paid with commitment, loyalty and dedication as well as much hard work.... they found that paying me might have been easier.......LOL.

:asian:

Mr. C,

Of course we all know that there will never be another, but could the system benefit from a person or persons that is (are) looked to as an Authority and that travels around as much as SGM Parker did? I know that there are several prominant higher ranking belts that have a regular circuit they hit every year, but they only do Kenpo schools primarily. Wouldn't the system be equally served if seminars were held at non-Kenpo schools more often? What made people more accepting (schools and instructors) to do this back in the day verses now?

jb

.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. C, Of course we all know that there will never be another "ED PARKER", but could the system benefit from a person or persons that is (are) looked to as an Authority and that travels around as much as SGM Parker did?
jb

Of Course!

Originally posted by jbkenpo
I know that there are several prominent higher ranking belts that have a regular circuit they hit every year, but they only do Kenpo schools primarily. Wouldn't the system be equally served if seminars were held at non-Kenpo schools more often?
jb

Sure, but even when Mr. Parker was "on the circuit", the bulk of the studios or groups were Kenpo Based. Very few dis-similar systems had a Kenpo Seminar. Of course there were and are other studios invited to many of the Kenpo Seminars today with the exception of a few, but the material base is and has always been American Kenpo.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
What made people more accepting (schools and instructors) to do this back in the day verses now?
jb

Like I said prior, the bulk of the seminars were Kenpo Based but many did invite outside systems to view what we had to offer.

I believe that today, with the many organizations that we have many have become sectional and are smaller over-all and the "Quality of the Promotion" by the host is an issue as well as the state of the economy. Many do not want other systems..... I personally love to have other systems present at my seminars. (I claim bragging rights.... lol!)

:asian:

A lot of kenpoists are bringing BJJ into thier kenpo schools, yet
some say that grappling is already built into kenpo, you just gotta
"find it".

So how come no one has created some grappling techniques?
There's no kenpo grappling seminars, or techniques that I've
heard of .. everyone just goes and studies BJJ.

Originally posted by Kirk
A lot of kenpoists are bringing BJJ into their kenpo schools, yet
some say that grappling is already built into kenpo, you just gotta
"find it".


Your instructor should be able to show you how to manipulate the techniques and open your eyes as to what is there that you don't see yet.

Originally posted by Kirk
So how come no one has created some grappling techniques?
There's no kenpo grappling seminars, or techniques that I've
heard of .. everyone just goes and studies BJJ.


I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?:)

There are Kenpo Grappling Seminars....... that I know of but they are mostly kept within their respective organizations and not been exploited publicly to any great degree. Buy I agree that you rarely hear of them..... but you will hear more in the future.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?:)


Ah, so we're playing the nit picking game of "technicallity" now,
huh? ;)

Originally posted by Kirk
Ah, so we're playing the nit picking game of "technicallity" now,
huh? ;)


If I show ya....... I'll have to kill ya.......

:samurai:

Originally posted by Kirk
A lot of kenpoists are bringing BJJ into thier kenpo schools, yet
some say that grappling is already built into kenpo, you just gotta
"find it".

So how come no one has created some grappling techniques?
There's no kenpo grappling seminars, or techniques that I've
heard of .. everyone just goes and studies BJJ.

Kirk, try to check out a Martin Wheeler seminar if you get the chance. He has some tapes on kenpo ground fighting that I understand from my instructor are very good (they're pretty good friends). He's going to be here in Colorado on March 15 doing a Systema seminar on ground fighting but I'm pretty sure he still does kenpo seminars too.


:asian:

Klondike

Kirk, Kenpo2000 has some Kenpo grappling techniques integrated with the curriculum

My students are required to learn Grappling techniques for different belt ranks. But I don't teach EPAK, or Tracy's Kenpo. More of bend of Chinese, Okinawan, and American Kempo Jujutsu.
Bob

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Your instructor should be able to show you how to manipulate the techniques and open your eyes as to what is there that you don't see yet.

I think his question was, "Is there an American Kenpo curriculum that operates from the horizontal ideal phase and shows the principles of logic applied to the ground game, seriously? Or is everyone just formulating ideas? Did SGM Parker ever set anything in stone in regards to this? I remember back in the day, blue belt ground defense, but that was about it. I'm sure there have been quite a few black belt thesis on this topic, but I could be wrong.


Originally posted by Goldendragon7
[B
I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?:)

There are Kenpo Grappling Seminars....... that I know of but they are mostly kept within their respective organizations and not been exploited publicly to any great degree. Buy I agree that you rarely hear of them..... but you will hear more in the future.

:asian: [/B]

The two that I've heard of specifically are Mr. Sanchez (saw an article on Kenpo used horizontally to cancel zones) and Mr. Mills, he has a vid on his website of a technique being done from the ground. I'm pretty sure Mr. Hancock has formulated some good stuff on this topic as well. It is unfortunate that there isn't a standard ground game for Kenpo, but then again some would argue there isn't a "standard" stand up game either...:D

jb:asian:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
I think his question was, "Is there an American Kenpo curriculum that operates from the horizontal ideal phase and shows the principles of logic applied to the ground game, seriously?

This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal. The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands. Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Hancock has formulated some good stuff on this topic as well.
Yep he has.

Originally posted by Elfan
This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal. The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands. Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.

Certainly you know that I'm referring to an "ideal" response vs the "what if" and formulation stages...and not being on the ground as being the ideal position to be in...unless of course your the Machados or Gracies...and there aren't one,two or three other guys standing around waiting to stomp a mud hole into your a** when you get good and pre-occupied with your ground scenario.

jb:asian:

Originally posted by Elfan
Yep he has.

I know this is GD7's area, so could you elaborate in a seperate topic thread how Mr. Hancock has logically broken down ground scenarios?

Thanks, jb:asian:

Originally posted by Elfan
This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal. The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands. Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.

This is an excellent point and a good place for me to quote Mr. Parker on this because I think it supports Elfan's point and I've been looking for a good excuse to bring it up.

"5. Holds and Hugs -- These in turn are more difficult because of the restriction of body movement and the limited number of available weapons and targets, as well as a real danger of being taken to the ground." - Infinite Insights Book 5, pg 69

This is one of the first times I noticed Mr. Parker addressing the ground. He addresses it as some place that you don't want to go and I also take this to mean that it is something to be avoided and that our system is primarily concerned with keeping you from going there.

I don't know if he ever wrote similarly about the "real danger of being thrown a right roundhouse punch." Ha, ha. I mean we Want that to happen. We are ready for that attack.

When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK. Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.

If he can get him there. :)

Anyway, I think Elfan makes a good point and I think Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art. Otherwise we might have the Guard, Mount and Side Mount "somewhere" on the charts, instead of maybe "Kicking Set 2" or "Striking Set 2." Or even "Kicking Set" for that matter.

Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
:eek:

Originally posted by cdhall
This is an excellent point and a good place for me to quote Mr. Parker on this because I think it supports Elfan's point and I've been looking for a good excuse to bring it up.

"5. Holds and Hugs -- These in turn are more difficult because of the restriction of body movement and the limited number of available weapons and targets, as well as a real danger of being taken to the ground." - Infinite Insights Book 5, pg 69

This is one of the first times I noticed Mr. Parker addressing the ground. He addresses it as some place that you don't want to go and I also take this to mean that it is something to be avoided and that our system is primarily concerned with keeping you from going there.

I don't know if he ever wrote similarly about the "real danger of being thrown a right roundhouse punch." Ha, ha. I mean we Want that to happen. We are ready for that attack.

When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK. Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.

If he can get him there. :)

Anyway, I think Elfan makes a good point and I think Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art. Otherwise we might have the Guard, Mount and Side Mount "somewhere" on the charts, instead of maybe "Kicking Set 2" or "Striking Set 2." Or even "Kicking Set" for that matter.

Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
:eek:

Well,

I understand the frame of reference that you are coming from, and I respectfully disagree with most of what you said. Also just keep on your leopard skin thong, GD7 probably won't be too hard on you at all. :rofl:

jb:asian:

Thanks JB,

In all the 154 Techniques there is not one where you are on the ground and your opponent is on the ground with you/attacking you.

That is really my point.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
I know this is GD7's area, so could you elaborate a little on how you have logically broken down ground scenarios?Thanks, jb


Ok, I'll give you some hints...

The principles for grappling are the same as for stand up (vertical plane) defenses, but on a "horizontal plane", understanding the Kenpo Tools are a great source to aid you in this undertaking (knowledge of universal pattern, analytical study of motion are two that are extremely useful). A couple of quick examples are:

Ok........ Let's take [Dance of Death] {Frontal Attack}..... when adapted to "Kenpo Grappling" the initial moves are nothing more than an aggressive single leg take-down, then maneuver into the [Sleeper] to apply the choke to submission.

The [Grasp of Death] {side choke while kneeling}..... is adapted to free yourself from the choke and maneuver into an arm-bar choke combination.

I know you may or may not be able to interpret exactly what I mean without actually seeing or feeling but it will at least start you thinking.

:asian:

Originally posted by cdhall
In all the 154 Techniques there is not one where you are on the ground and your opponent is on the ground with you/attacking you. That is really my point.


Hang on Guys......... hang on...........!!!!!!

CD.... you are exactly right, there is not an exact drawn out curriculum pictured in "Technicolor" for anyone! Yet, realize that grappling attacks take place in a [Phase] that you probably have not been ready for yet or placed much attention to. That "Phase" is the "what if" ......... i.e., what if you are on the ground or in a headlock on the ground..... etc etc.

The answers lie in what has already been taught to you however, you may not fully comprehend or really understood the Kenpo Tools that would allow you to realize that the principles (which you know) are or can be applied to any plane of action {path}.... vertical, horizontal or diagonal or any other "measure of degree"! When also inserting the <8 considerations>........ Acceptance - Environment - Range - Position - Maneuvers - Targets - Natural Weapons & Natural Defenses, you will discover that you COULD APPLY WITH A LITTLE "FORMULATION"* defensive actions ==that you are already familiar with== to aid you in the discovery of old applications to seemingly new scenarios.

Yes, we are digging deep into the Kenpo System now but keep in mind that this is NOT a topical ART!! It does in fact have layers and they are not fiction. The revelation is much like that of the Bible...... what you read is not always what you see...... you must sometimes look beyond a basic "interpretation" {designed for the beginners}and meaning to find additional wisdom {extracted and used only by those that have an expanded vocabulary of motion}.

This stuff is not pipe dream or mystical material only held by certain individuals...... I personally know a few that understand what I am talking about. Yet, others have no clue and call it fantasy.......

well, that's ok, because...... "You only know what you know ..... not what I know".

Now....... additional cross training for some is of great assistance and in no means a bad thing..... some need the examples and assistance of other recources...... that's brilliant!! Dig where you need to dig..... the gold doesn't come to you....... No one said it was an easy journey all the time. hee heee

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Now....... additional cross training for some is of great assistance and in no means a bad thing..... some need the examples and assistance of other recources...... that's brilliant!! Dig where you need to dig..... the gold doesn't come to you....... No one said it was an easy journey all the time. hee heee
:asian:

This I agree with very much so SIR! I've tried to say this many times over and made a lot of people angry when I've said something similar. Maybe it was in the delivery.:eek: Anyway there are people out there that can take your knowledge and tweak it a little and make that tech. a lot better or give just a little better understanding.:asian:

Originally posted by cdhall
Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.


A good individual with ANY sort of training should <never> be underestimated (including grapplers and boxers). The ideal phase only "STARTS" the process of self defense.... you -must- advance on to skilled opponents at some point unless you only want train to defend yourself against un-skilled opponents [at the entry level of training]. The ideal phase only gives you a start in the system (1/3) and establishes the basics.... the next phase, is where you really start to learn the application and adaptation process.... {I realize many have not understood this or are not there yet} to take that "base" to yet another level. This is really where the "rubber meets the road" not in the beginning levels much like in elementary school curriculums vs. college training and then adaptation to the "real world".

You must have been referring to a "Beginning" pure EPAK student, not one of the skilled advanced students that really knows, has developed and trained what he/she has, right?

Originally posted by cdhall
Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art.


Correct........ that was higher on his priority list for the system but not the "only" area he wanted to address!

Originally posted by cdhall
Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out. :eek:


LOL... make sure it is double lined and have "Shuttle Tiles" coating the outside........:rofl:

Actually, this reminds me of a story Mr. Parker used to tell in these salutations... (excerpt from upcoming book... "Warrior Tales...... American Kenpo's Best Loved Stories" by Dennis Conatser)

THE HANDYMAN

For a present to his son, a man purchased a bicycle that his boy had his eyes on for some time, then had it delivered to his house. When the box arrived he realized that it was in parts and not put together. The man was a little upset that he now had to assemble this bike and that his son would be home from school in only 3 hours which would spoil the surprise and also that his son would surely want to try it out immediately upon seeing it.

The man unboxed the bicycle and separated what seemed to be a thousand pieces. He sat down with the instructions, but after about an hour, frustration set in and he decided to call his friend who was a handyman and ask for assistance.

Fortunately the handyman was available to come over immediately and start the project. As he walked in the garage he saw the bicycle with its many parts on the floor. The man handed the handyman the instructions and stepped back to watch. The handyman laid down the instructions and immediately started in on the assembling of this bike. Within 30 minutes the handyman was totally finished and the bike was ready for use.

The man was totally amazed at not only the speed in which the handyman worked but the fact that he didn’t ONCE pick up the instructions to help with the assembly! I tried to do what you did but I could not make any sense of the booklet! The man then asked the handyman …….. “How is it that you could put this contraption together and yet not a single occasion did you once check the instruction manual”?

The handyman laughed and then said; “Fact is sir, that I can’t read,.............. and if you can’t read…........ You gotta think!”

So too is it with our truly unique system of American Kenpo, even though the system is curriculumized to a great degree you can't hold everyone's hands forever..... you have to ....... well ............. think!

:asian:

When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK. Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.

Mr C,
Your answer to this was great thank you for the wonderful response as usual.

Doug hopefully you really do not believe that statement you made and were just trying to get an insightful response. Also since I know you are in Austin ask Mr. Billings about how many of the techniques are used in grappling. We have had many discussions on this and worked many of the techniques in those situations.

Respectfully,
Ginsu

Originally posted by Ginsu
Mr C,
Your answer to this was great thank you for the wonderful response as usual.


Amen.

I got a lot of good answers.

I was curious to see what the reaction would be, that is true Ginsu.

I mean why do we have 44 Variations on 5 Swords (I think that is correct from Mr. C's Master Key posting somewhere on here) but not one "grappling" technique? That seems a bit overloaded.

Anyway, Mr. Speakman recently asked us in his Dec 2002 seminar if anyone had any questions and specifically used "Does Kenpo work on the Ground?" as an example but no one took him up on it.

I didn't say anything then either because I know it "works" on the ground, but I also think that most Kenpo Brown Belts or Black Belts will lose a grappling encounter with a Gracie Purple or Brown Belt.

Again, if the Gracie guy can get the Kenpo guy to the ground.

Here is my experience in Grappling so far. We had a guy that taught on Saturdays before I took over and he liked to work the Guard, Mount, Side Mount, Shrimp, Fig 4 armbar, American Choke/Stranglehold, and 1-2 other techniques. He would usually spend 15-30mins of classtime reviewing or teaching these.

He used to go to a Machado School on open mat night and said that these were basically all the techniques he knew and with them he was very capable of defending himself and he was by no means at everyone's mercy in that mixed class of primarily grappling students. So there are just a few techniques that you need (Master Key Grappling techniques maybe) that will serve you very well and he and I wondered why these 6-8 moves were not on our charts.

When I first went to his class he was showing how a grappling student can easily apply a choke. They work on it all the time. If you give them 1 second then they are choking you out. There were 2-3 chokes he used as examples, but they were simple, effective and very readily available to an assailant.

When I first started working with him, I did Snapping Twig and some other stuff while on my back that he pointed out work very well. Some of the stuff I formulated on the ground surprised him quite a bit. He used some of it as examples. He was impressed that in my first grappling class I was able to actually defend myself and get to him.

On the other hand I was sure that if we just dropped to the ground he could put me in a choke faster than I could formulat a response.

So I know Kenpo of this works on the ground. It just seems odd that we have 44 Right Roundhouse Punch defense variants and not even 6 Master Key Grappling moves. I mean if we were trying to get everyone to think, then we should throw everything out there and let experience and your instructor help you sort it out.

I have a conclusion, but I can't get it worked out so I've deleted it. Basically I think that based on that quote from Book 5 I am accept that Kenpo is a stand-up striking art and that that is what a Black Belt should be good at. I guess. Based on the curriculum that is the logical conclusion. Prior to reading that I thought a Black Belt should have more "mystical powers." It was good for me to see that and re-focus. I don't deny that Kenpo works in grappling and that you can take the principles and concepts into anything and they'll serve you well. I've worked out with other stylists and I have seen that I can pick up what they are doing and help them at the same time based on my Kenpo knowledge.

I'll shut up. I'm confusing myself. PM me if you like. I may expand on this/edit it down later somehow.

Originally posted by cdhall
I also think that most Kenpo Brown Belts or Black Belts will lose a grappling encounter with a Gracie Purple or Brown Belt.


You have a valid point, but let's use a prime "Kenpo Tool" to examine why. {Infinite Insights - Book 1, page 1} From "YOUR point of view", and with all YOUR experiences up to date, is what your feelings and opinion is based upon. Now, with that in mind, it allows you to realize..... where you are, where you have been, and where you still need to go to get expanded training to increase your current skills and become better than you are at this time. All of what you have done is valid but you realize that there are skills that are either weak and need improvement or lacking totally.

You are at a particular level of experience, Brown Belt, (keep in mind that - belt or no belt, what you actually KNOW and can DO is what is more important than the color of the belt) you still have much to learn and experience yet to Black and even then you are not at the end ......... thru [several] levels {or years of experience} of Black Belt. During this time, I'm positive the material will present itself and you will be able to expand your definitions of "current material" and realize that you are currently limiting your views on the techniques due to lack of experience that will come in time....... Recall the words........ " Let time be your measure to skill and experience".

Originally posted by cdhall
On the other hand I was sure that if we just dropped to the ground he could put me in a choke faster than I could formulate a response.


Yes, I agree........ question is why? Because he is conditioned for this specific type of activity at this point and YOU are not! Simple! Now go put on the sparring gear and freestyle with him for a typical open point tournament and see how he does in your POND! I recall the words again....... "Condition and guts, take over where knowledge and skill end". You are not "conditioned" as of yet for grappling due to the curriculum path that your are currently following..... this will not last forever, be patient grasshopper, one skill at a time.... :D

Originally posted by cdhall
I accept that Kenpo is a stand-up striking art and that is what a Black Belt should be good at. I guess. Based on the curriculum that is the logical conclusion.


Again....... due to your exposure, only at this time...... only "AT THIS TIME" once you broaden your horizons..... you will see a different sunrise.

Damn, today the little voices are all over me..... Doug do you remember this Kenpo Tool..... "I pledge a continued effort to sharpen my skills, increase my knowledge, and to broaden my horizons...... (Green Belt pledge I do believe) go back and examine exactly what that means....... {you bill is growing with me ..... you know}


Originally posted by cdhall
I don't deny that Kenpo works in grappling and that you can take the principles and concepts into anything and they'll serve you well.


So then....... WHAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:asian:

{I think God put you here to keep me on my toes..... NO, you are just doing this to test me aren't you...... OR POSSIBLY... it really is Billings isn't it. He put you up to this to see if I really know anything! Hmmmmmmmm}
:rpo: RTFM :rpo:

Originally posted by cdhall
...but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.

The only thing I'll add to this is that the advantage will only be in ground fighting situations only.


I will agree with this statement many times over. I stand by my views and beliefs on this very subject. Again, a grappling student will be better on the ground due to constant drilling of techniques and such where as our art will be much better standing up. Once again I probably opened up a big can of worms here for myself but yet I will be a man and stand up for my beliefs. :asian:

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I will be a man and stand up for my beliefs.


I just can't resist..........

"If you don't stand for something......... You'll fall for anything"

:rofl:


:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I just can't resist..........

"If you don't stand for something......... You'll fall for anything"

Probably!! :rofl:

It's the story of my life.:eek: I could talk about this one blonde in my life but I'd rather not.

friend of mine used to train a lot in BBJ in addition to Kenpo. he held his own pretty well there. relating more to my point however, is when it came time to do a drill of sorts to try and take the opponent down vale-tudo style. the pure BBJ students were then at a bit of a disadvantage because strikes came into play.

the grapplers were not able to take him down consistently because when they would try to shoot, he would blast them with an elbow or a knee, or simply used footwork to avoid being taken down.

would a seasoned BBJ practitioner been able to take him to the ground fairly easily, yeah probably. but at the time he was not exactly what i would call "seasoned" in kenpo either. the students there had about the same years experience in grappling as he had in kenpo, and the fight usually was never taken to the ground.

eh...it's all relative in the end i guess...

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Probably!! :rofl: It's the story of my life.:eek: I could talk about this one blonde in my life but I'd rather not.

OMG!:anic:

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
This I agree with very much so SIR! I've tried to say this many times over and made a lot of people angry when I've said something similar. Maybe it was in the delivery.:eek: Anyway there are people out there that can take your knowledge and tweak it a little and make that tech. a lot better or give just a little better understanding.:asian:


JF,

I might have been able to say I agree with you, if you had let go of my throat long enough for me to breath and speak :D. It must be your presentation and delivery. :eek:

Seriously, I am enjoying and learning that Many of the concepts in one martial art transcend into the others. :)

Good Discussion!

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Yikes!!!!!:eek:
No, she wasn't that BIG!!:rofl:
I tried to make a rule of thumb in life not to date any females that had more muscle than me.:)

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Yikes!!! I tried to make a rule of thumb in life not to date any females that had more muscle than me.:)


Actually ............ you DO have the same amount...... she just uses hers more!:rofl:

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
So then....... WHAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No problem sir. I can out point-fight most of the guys at our studio you know.

My observation is that if we have a lot of "grappling" built into EPAK, then why aren't there any grappling techniques.

We could use a good 6-8 techniques, but we don't have one. But we have 10 Master Key stand-up techniques and 144 variations. It just strikes me as odd that is all.

I picked up grappling pretty well from my buddy. Sometimes it sounds like a stretch when you tell us "It's in there!" like an old Ragu commercial.
:rofl:
I am just wondering why the "curriculum" is set up like it is if there is more "grappling" than appears at first blush. I wonder if the Kajukenbo guys have more grappling techniques than us EPAK guys do.

I think we could use more grappling, more entering strategies, maybe some more/better freestyle techniques, some chi/energy training, and I like the Lockflow stuff that Mr. Hartsell does from what I've seen. I think that falls under grappling and, yes, I know he had an Black Belt under Mr. Parker (like Mr. Inosanto) and that he lost a match to Bob Wall at the 1968 IKC (Memories of Ed Parker pg 75 :D ).

I was just noticing there seems to be a lot of stuff "implicit" in our curriculum which seems odd since we have so much stuff that is "explicit." I'd like to see more base techniques and less variations I guess.

But everytime I work out with someone from another style I see how well Kenpo works and helps me adapt to situations. I'm not complaining per se. Kenpo is good stuff and there is a lot of material "buried" in the system.

I gotta go change my asbestos undies now. :eek:

Originally posted by cdhall
I think we could use more grappling, more entering strategies,

So would I!!!!!! The thing here is that it takes a period of time to adjust to the grappling ranges. Hand positioning is very important and can mean the distinctive degree of "possible" losses. Body posture is an absolute must when grappling.There are certain aspects that you just can't do on your own without proper guidance of a qualified instructor. :asian:

Originally posted by cdhall
No problem sir. I can out point-fight most of the guys at our studio you know.

I'll be looking for you next time I come down...:)



Sometimes it sounds like a stretch when you tell us "It's in there!" like an old Ragu commercial.
:rofl:


Preach brother, preach....




My observation is that if we have a lot of "grappling" built into EPAK, then