I am currently studing the Shuri-te id there any body else that studys this system. The system is very much like Muay thai because of the shin kicks and use of the use of the knees and elbows.
I have to see if their are other players out there.

You will find, if you get in touch with enough people, that it is commonly held that Shuri-te never left Okinawa, and was incorporated into other styles of karate so much so that it ceased to be "Shuri-te" at all...

Shuri-ryu has a well known history, easily found via internet search.

If what I remember from studying with Onozaki-sensei is correct, his Shuri-te Ha Karate-do is his own combination of Shotokan, Kyokushin, and some other skills. I am not sure that it is Shuri-te in its proper context.

Best bet - talk to him about its background. He could likely point you toward his students that have since left Japan...

Gambarimasu!

:samurai: :tank:

Mr. Stone is correct.

The only place that Shuri te, Naha te, and Tomari te actually existed was in the minds of the people that decided they needed a niche to separate themselves from the rest of the pack. People say they are different because of the geographical locations in Okinawa........go to Okinawa and go to Naha...........walk around a bit and you will find yourself in Shurei and won't even know you left Naha.


For all intents and purposes their is not much of (if any) or very little difference between Shuri te, Naha te, and Tomari te. People will say "well Goju and Uechi are not like Shorin Ryu" etc...........and that is true............but Goju and Uechi are not, but then again they just came over from China a little more than 100 years ago.

During the time I lived on Okinawa, late 1959 - mid-1962, you could actually go from Naha to Shurei or to Naminuie and know when you left one and entered the other. From what people tell me it is all one huge city now.

I practiced at Nagamine's dojo that was on the way from Naha AB to downtown Naha and I think it was in Shurei. Could be wrong since it has been a long time. Also, I joined Miyazato's Gojuryu dojo before leaving Okinawa. He was also the President of the Okinawan Judo Federation. That is how I met him and he was my Judo sensei at the Naha Police Dojo whenever I worked out there.

The history of Okinawa is interesting and I don't think any one person has the right story yet.

Yes it has changed a bit. There is basically one big city now.
However, the island is only about 7 miles wide and 60 miles long.....everything is not very far from one place to another.

We used run from the dojo to downtown Naha and back during new year, bare feet! I guess being just out of my teens made me foolish :) We also did some running elsewhere near the beach in Namanouie (SP?) and you could actually see the separation from one place to the other.

I spent two years there and it was a great time in my life. It seems like I was here to practice Judo, and karate at times, then had a part time job in the Air Force :D The Good Old Days! When I was young. Now retired and trying to live the good life :confused:

Are you now on Okinawa? I was just visiting my son, a Naval Officer at Atsugi NAF, Japan, in March and was invited to fly down there with some astronomers for a meeting. One of the astronomers was a Judo and Akido student, retired as I am, after many years of practice. It would have been fun to see the "Rock" again. I grew up there :) (was 19 years old when I arrived there and left at least 40 in spirit) :D

No, I live close to Yokosuka now. About 10 miles from the base.
I have been to Atsugi and Zama several times.
I go to Okinawa about once or twice a year for relaxation. The folks in Okinawa are a lot more friendly than the folks in Japan. It is kind of a home away from home for me.

My son has been going to school down at Yokosuka for several weeks. We didn’t get down there during our visit with him the last three weeks on March. We did go to the park on Camp Zama though with our three grandchildren. Tired us out!

The friendlier folks in Okinawa is a true statement. Of course, when I was there they were very friendly and had not experienced all the fuzz with Japan taking over and the ugly American stuff I hear about. In 1959 we had a great relationship with them and seemed to get along well. We Judo players would visit a lot of dojos around the island and made lost of friends. They didn’t seem to be so hyped up over international competition then so the commercial aspect was less so than what I have been told about the place now. We would nearly kill each other on the tatami, but drink beer afterwards as friends. The karate people were a nice lot as well. It was a fun time for me then. Time flies by too fast though.

My son practices Judo at times near Atsugi with a sensei named "Rocky."

I have noticed a big difference in the Budoka in japan and Okinawa.
The ones in Okinawa are there to train hard, beat the living hell out of each other, and then pound down goodly amounts of beer and Awamori afterwards with each other.
On the mainland I am sorry to say it is not always that way.......a lot of times it is a "pecker contest" with them and seem to have something to "prove".

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

For all intents and purposes their is not much of (if any) or very little difference between Shuri te, Naha te, and Tomari te. People will say "well Goju and Uechi are not like Shorin Ryu" etc...........and that is true............but Goju and Uechi are not, but then again they just came over from China a little more than 100 years ago.

I've always felt there was less difference between those odler Okinawan styles than I was told--it's good to hear that someone agress with me as I was feeling rather alone.

As to the newer styles, Uechi-ryu really is in a category of its own--it's literal kung fu, augmented by the son with additional newly-created kata after the death of the father. At least Goju-ryu shows the effects of other Okinawan systems.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Mr. Stone is correct.

The only place that Shuri te, Naha te, and Tomari te actually existed was in the minds of the people that decided they needed a niche to separate themselves from the rest of the pack. People say they are different because of the geographical locations in Okinawa........go to Okinawa and go to Naha...........walk around a bit and you will find yourself in Shurei and won't even know you left Naha.


For all intents and purposes their is not much of (if any) or very little difference between Shuri te, Naha te, and Tomari te. People will say "well Goju and Uechi are not like Shorin Ryu" etc...........and that is true............but Goju and Uechi are not, but then again they just came over from China a little more than 100 years ago. :I would say that it depends on the actual style of shorin-ryu. Matsubayashi, Shobayashi, Kobayashi, or Matsumura Seito. I know that matsurmura seito is very different from goju and uechi ryu. They also have their versions of the hakutsuru. Yet, matsumura seito is the only shorin-ryu system where the hakutsuru or white crane system was passed down to each family member in secret! I'am from the matsumura seito clan of the mid eighties and the differences then were very visible. Now matsumura orthodox is not widely recognized due to the secretive nature of the system's practitioner's which carry on the tradition of Soken Sensei. For more info on the kung fu side of the white crane fist system, go to http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken My butokutsuru ryu kenpojutsu has similarities here. Great Site! :asian: Ami Tou Fou! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Originally posted by Chiduce

Yet, matsumura seito is the only shorin-ryu system where the hakutsuru or white crane system was passed down to each family member in secret!

No it wasn't. See below.


Originally posted by Chiduce

I'am from the matsumura seito clan of the mid eighties and the differences then were very visible. Now matsumura orthodox is not widely recognized due to the secretive nature of the system's practitioner's which carry on the tradition of Soken Sensei.

For being part of their "clan" you sure are lacking on some of the basic information on the style.
Now matsumura orthodox is not "widely recognized" due to all the muck Kise Fusei & Seiki Arakaki stirred up. That is a different thread and none of my business.

For being such a "secret style" oddly enough Chotoku Kyan learned Sesan, Naihanchi and Gojushiho from Matsumura Sokon, Soken's grandfather.
In fact Soken's grandfather, Matsumura Sokon, studied from Tode Sakugawa, Ason, and Iwah not from a Matsumura.
Matsumura Sokon was the founder of his Matsumura style and he taught, Sakihara peichin, Kiyuna, Chotoku Kyan, Hanashiro Chomo, Nabe Matsumura (his own son) Ryosei Kuwae, Anko Asato, Anko Itosu, Kentsu Yabu, Ishimine Peichin.............just to name a few that were in the "secret system" that was taught "only to family."
I fail to see where and how it was only taught to family members, in fact Matsumura Soken would have only been the 3rd generation.




This is exactly how come karate has so much controversy in it.
Someone doesn't check their facts and just repeats the same BS they were told and sooner or later when enough people hear it and repeat it then it becomes "fact".
Do your homework.

You seem to see the shorin-ryu from a different side! What about nabe matsumura and hohan soken. The hakutsuru which they were taught was different. Nabe made hohan practice on a board floating in the water, it is said. Just as the gojushiho kata not only carries the name Fifty Four Steps among the other shorin-ryu styles. The matsumura seito kata carries the name fifty four steps of the black tiger. The kata are similar but not exactly the same. Elements of black tiger kung fu was added to the matsumura kata. You say that you know what i know and yet you do not mention the differences. So, if you want to talk matsumura, talk nabe matsumura and hohan soken. Your clarity here is a little misaligned. Just because the other masters learned those kata versions from matsumura; it does not mean that they learned the family white crane system. Like i said before, that hakutsuru system was passed down only to family members. Check the lineage. None of the other masters are on the tree line from bushi to hohan soken. After hohan soken the tree expands. In the eighties seiki arakaki and fusei kise (still is) and (ronald lindsey(was up and coming)) were the ranking leaders and kuda had matsumura kenpo (still does)! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

This is exactly how come karate has so much controversy in it.
Someone doesn't check their facts and just repeats the same BS they were told and sooner or later when enough people hear it and repeat it then it becomes "fact".
Do your homework.

In this particular case there may be enough documentation to allow that--I don't know--and there is more documentation available than people generally realize. For many of the historical issues in karate it seems that legend is all there is to go on, however, and repeating what one's instructor has said is the only alternative to saying nothing. Which then is preferable?

To put it another way, I think the admonition to do one's homework must be qualified by the fact that that often isn't feasible in this arena.

Originally posted by Chiduce


You seem to see the shorin-ryu from a different side! What about nabe matsumura and hohan soken.

:o
A different side uh......you seem to be the one with all your facts screwed up.
What about Nabe Matsumura and Hohan Soken?
Nabe Matsumura was Sokon Matsumura's Grandson, Nabe Matsumura was Soken's uncle.....................and your point is................. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Chiduce

The hakutsuru which they were taught was different. Nabe made hohan practice on a board floating in the water, it is said.

He was not "made to" he chose to do it himself.



Originally posted by Chiduce

You say that you know what i know and yet you do not mention the differences.

You've lost me I have no idea what the hell you are going on about..............


Originally posted by Chiduce

Check the lineage.

I think you are the one that should reading up on things since you jumble things around.



Originally posted by Chiduce

None of the other masters are on the tree line from bushi to hohan soken.

:rofl: What the heck are you lookin' at? Because I am looking at several different books and they are all pretty similar to what I have posted.

All of the people I mentioned previously were actually senior to Soken.............
You should also know that Soken also trained with Gokenki, who just by chance teaches.......... hakatsuru.

From now on do your own research. Most of what you are talking about you can look up in any number of decent martial arts historical texts to find out if it correct or not.

Jusr basing it on my foggy memory I would say there is a big difference between Matsubayashi and goju-ryu. I practiced both while there and noticed that the two were very different, not so much in kata but in methods. But, it has been a long time sicne I was there in 1962 and brain cells have a way of going away.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



:rofl: What the heck are you lookin' at? Because I am looking at several different books and they are all pretty similar to what I have posted.

All of the people I mentioned previously were actually senior to Soken.............
You should also know that Soken also trained with Gokenki, who just by chance teaches.......... hakatsuru.

From now on do your own research. Most of what you are talking about you can look up in any number of decent martial arts historical texts to find out if it correct or not. There you go again dude! My information is in fact fact! I do not care about the masters or seniors before bushi matsumura! I'am only talking about the lineage of the family white crane system from bushi to nabe to hohan soken to arakaki to kise to kuda etc. " The purest teachings, according to hohan soken (1889-1982) was carried on by nabe matsumura (1860=1930). He ( hohan soken) received training in the Family Style of matsumura shorin-ryu which also included the "Secret Techniques Of The White Crane". The white crane system was reputed to be a secret family style that was only taught to immediate family members. Hohan Soken trained 10 years in the basics before learning the techniques of the hakutsuru. He was 23 yrs. old at this time. According to soken, this was a secret family technique or training methodology which was confined to the matsumura family. The hakutsuru kata which was erroneously referred to as the "White Swan Technique" is The Advanced Level Of Matsumura Shorin-Ryu". Now, Gokenki style was Hakutsuru Kenpo or (white crane fist) which was a different white crane system than the family style of matsumura. Sure there would be similarities; yet not that many. Gokenki kept the chinese version while hohan soken was taught the okinawan version. You have to remember also that the temple that bushi studied in was an okinawan temple in china. Gokenki was from the Fukien china coast. So, it would be safe to assume that Gokenki learned in the chinese temple at fukien. So, if there would be any modern day mixing of the chinese kenpo aspects of the okinawan matsumura family white crane system, it would be after hohan soken took over the system, not before! Yet, Kuda, in carrying on the matsumura tradition founded matsumura kenpo to keep the original family white crane system of 18 kata and the hakutsuru kata alive from soken sensei. This would again keep the system in it's purest form. I do not exactly know now if it is still true, but from the mid-80's; you had to be a matsumura shorin-ryu practitioner in order to study matsumura kenpo. Again, the kenpo system was confined to the clan members only! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Originally posted by Chiduce

.......... You have to remember also that the temple that bushi studied in was an okinawan temple in china. ........


Good God where do you get this drivel?
Sorry dude but you ramble too much in your posts for me to actually take your seriously.

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Chiduce thanks for the Short but detailed history I can follow it without any trouble.
Arnisador thanks for politly stateing what needed t be said.
Lets keep the discussions on topic and with some respect to the other posters . We agree t disagree but respect the others opion
Shadow:asian:

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Good God where do you get this drivel?
Sorry dude but you ramble too much in your posts for me to actually take your seriously. That drivel is fact jack. Now on page 54 of Okinawan Karate By Mark Bishop states in the section on Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-Ryu that the simplified lineage is as follows. Sokon Bushi Matsumura - Nabe Matsumura - Hohan Soken - Seiki Arakaki - Fuse Kise. There are no others in this direct line. Now Hohan Soken only had 6 primary students and they are as follows; Jushin Kohana - Fuse Kise - Seiki Arakaki - Mitsuo Inoue - Hideo Nakazato. Like i said before. The family system lineage spread after Soken Sensei took over the system. There were no others taught the family hakutsuru system but nabe and hohan soken! This family system revealed the ( "bu no chikara" ) or "Heavy Fist" to it's practitioner as well as striking and blocking with the cranes wing and hane while balancing in the single legged stance, etc. In the history of the Shaolin Fighting Monks and also the Bubishi Text there is mention of an okinawan temple in fuken. This is due to the fact that assumes Bushi Matsumura brought an okinawan version of the Bubishi Text back from the fukien/fuzhou okinawan temple upon his return to okinawa after completing his martial studies. "Mabuni, Kenwa wrote in his version of the Bubishi that he had made a copy from the copy that his teacher (Itosu) had made himself". Itosu had made a copy from his teacher, (Bushi Matsumura). So, even though this is theorized, it does show fact that the Shaolin Temple in Fuzhou was an okinawan temple! Bushi did also study in the Chinese Temple at Beijing. "Drivel"; HA! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Originally posted by Chiduce

That drival is fact jack. Now on page 54 of Okinawan karate by Mark Bishop states in the section on Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-Ryu that the simplified lineage is as follows..........So, even though this is theorized, it does show fact that the Shaolin Temple in Fuzhou was an okinawan temple! Bushi did also study in the chinese temple at Beijing. "Drivel"; HA! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


:o I read the same book, you fail to mention all the people that studied with Bushi Matsumura before Hohan Soken.......but whatever.

As for Matsumura studying in any Shoalin temple is speculation at best.
He may have studied from someone that had been at the Shoalin temple but there is no proof he lived and trained there.

"Shoalin temple in Fuzhou an Okinawan temple".......:rofl: ......prove it.
There was a temple in Fuzhou and it was a Shoalin temple but it was most assuredly a Chinese one.
You have gone from "drivel" to outright nonsense. :rolleyes:


When you start presenting the full facts and not just "your version" (p54. of Bishop's Book) and start proving some of the things you are claiming then I will stop calling your posts "drivel"

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




:o I read the same book, you fail to mention all the people that studied with Bushi Matsumura before Hohan Soken.......but whatever.

As for Matsumura studying in any Shoalin temple is speculation at best.
He may have studied from someone that had been at the Shoalin temple but there is no proof he lived and trained there.

"Shoalin temple in Fuzhou an Okinawan temple".......:rofl: ......prove it.
There was a temple in Fuzhou and it was a Shoalin temple but it was most assuredly a Chinese one.
You have gone from "drivel" to outright nonsense. :rolleyes:


When you start presenting the full facts and not just "your version" (p54. of Bishop's Book) and start proving some of the things you are claiming then I will stop calling your posts "drivel" Homes, what i gave you as info is fact. By the way, how could an okinawan version of the chinese bubishi text exist unless it was translated into the okinawan language by okinawan monks at shaolin! You keep talking about the students before nabe and hohan soken. You are a close minded analogy of your version of what you want to be fact. Open your mind and see that there was no one which learned the matsumura family system of shorin-ryu but nabe and hohan soken from bushi. Now where is your fact that i'am false? You have none. You only have the fact that bushi taught others hakutsuru, but not the family hakutsuru /white crane system. Go to any source and look up matsumura seito and you will not see anyone but nabe and hohan soken as the system's leaders! I gave you proof just as you gave me the names of the others which bushi matsumura taught. Now if you were a teacher at that particular time in history, and well known would you be stupid enough to teach many all the martial skill that you attained? So, what in Heaven's name do you think that a man as skilled as bushi would do. Protect Family First; not teach others to defeat him and family members. To tell you the truth guy, like would really like to curse you out. But i will not stoop as low as you and even try to assume that you understand. There is an old saying that if your cup is full, that there is no room for improvement or learning. Sir, so please keep your cup over-running with slop and bath in it! Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!

Originally posted by Chiduce

Homes, what i gave you as info is fact.

My name is not "Holmes" save that crap for your gang-bangin buddies........or would you like me to start calling you "Cheez-Douche"?

I hope you don't mind me asking your age.The reason why is I feel like I am having a discussion with a teenager.


Originally posted by Chiduce

By the way, how could an okinawan version of the chinese bubishi text exist unless it was translated into the okinawan language by okinawan monks at shaolin!

If you actually had a copy of the Bubishi you would have read who contributed to it's contsruction and how it came to be inthe hands of Okinawans.
If you have re-read the part about the 36 Chinese families in Okinawa and the Ryukyu Cultrual envoys to China, Fuzhou.
I would say if you could read Japanese you may even want to refer to a book called Ryukyu no Kase which tells in great detail about the above mentioned envoys. Since you can barely comprehend what you read in English I doubt you will have a chance to read it.

If you knew anything about the Shoalin Temple you would know that only until recently did they even let foreigners enter the temple, not to mention actually TRAIN there!


Originally posted by Chiduce

You keep talking about the students before nabe and hohan soken. You are a close minded analogy of your version of what you want to be fact.

No I keep looking at the same page you do with the same names written on it....why is it I see them and you don't. I just quoted Bishop's book. I don't know where you pulled your fairy tale version of "Okinawa Shoalin Monks" from, but whomever told you that is an idiot.

Since you know "everything" there is to know about Matsumura and his Okinawan Shoalin Temple I think I will leave you to wallow in your own "intelligence" :rofl:

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful, without personal insults.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Gentlemen please refrain from escalating this any further. The comments are becoming very condescending, and it is causing enough friction that no one else wants to comment on this thread. Let us act accordingly and govern oursleves as martial artist.

MT Moderator
Rob Broad

OK! I will apologize for my comment about the cup! Yet, i only stated from texts which were authored by respected martial historians. Nothing more! It was not my version though i did not quote a lot of it as is from the texts! I have read a lot worse from others. Though that is another story. I would just like to know why a guy with so much knowledge would have a web page which is restricted like a top secret document. I guess it is a new thing. I do know that i like many others have nothing to hide about myself, my system or anything else. I keep an open mind to anything because there is always something new to learn. I can elaborate on the level as a well versed individual or on the level of the individual whom is nicely trying to tell me to go...! So, i'am through with expecting too much of others! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

BTW, here is a photo of a Judo buddy Preston Pugh standing by Eiichi Miyazato who was with us in Japan in 1962 as our coach. He was godan Judo and is judan (10th dan) Goju-ryu karate master (if he is still alive that is). I think he was hachdan then. Very nice guy and made me wash the dojo floor more than once!

The old photo was not so good.

Hey I studied under Rocky as a kid in Japan. I would really like to correspond with him if you could help that would be great.

Thanks

Help find rocky.

FYI, Eiichi Miyazato Hanshi passed away in 1998 I believe. There is a website for the dojo that he founded on Okinawa. Taira sensei is now running his dojo, the last I had heard.