Bjj v. wrestling

[OrangeLeopard]

I work on bjj with my instructor who actually did it professionaly for a while. I never got to do it as much as I would like to but he just starting to teach bjj/ grappling that runs alongside of our sparring classes. one of the kids who I grapple with is an amazing scholastic wrestler (second in our state). I was wondering what your thoughts were on the differences of bjj and scholastic wrestling and if one can actually compete on the same level as the other.

[MJS]

I work on bjj with my instructor who actually did it professionaly for a while. I never got to do it as much as I would like to but he just starting to teach bjj/ grappling that runs alongside of our sparring classes. one of the kids who I grapple with is an amazing scholastic wrestler (second in our state). I was wondering what your thoughts were on the differences of bjj and scholastic wrestling and if one can actually compete on the same level as the other.

I give alot of credit to wrestlers. They have some awesome takedowns and the clinch work is very good also. One of the things that it lacks is submissions. This was evident in UFC 4, when Dan Severn fought Royce Gracie. Mark Coleman was another example. Both had excellent takedowns and very good ground control, but that was the extent of it. However, many wrestlers have begun to cross train in BJJ/Submission wrestling, to give them that extra edge and round out their training.

Mike

[arnisador]

Cross-training these is great. The takedowns from wrestling are very helpful.

[kempo-vjj]

Doing some groundwork in class, I have noticed when up against someone who has been a wrestler, that yes, they already have a set of skills, with good takedowns and mat movement. But some flaws were they tended to forget to not turn back to the opponent (choke). Which is a mistake I learned after a few times. And the other is striking which not ingrained in them. Of course some have skills beyond most you were just mat rats in high school.

[NotQuiteDead]

While wrestling doesn't have "submissions", it does have a lot of stuff that can be used as a submission. A lot of the techniques that are used as pins, reversals, etc. are basically joint locks.

Wrestling has a lot to offer submission grapplers, it certainly helped me.

[DuckofDeath]

Not being on your back is of paramount importance in scholastic wrestling; fighting while on your back is one of the signature moves of BJJ, however. Successful transitions can be made from wrestling to BJJ, though; BJJ black belt Eric Williams in Houston came from a collegiate wrestling background.

[NotQuiteDead]

I went from sub grappling to wrestling and back again just fine. Wrestling helped me focus on my top game and stop relying on the guard so much. I also learned to get people off my back a lot better than I would have if I never gave it up.

[JKogas]

I think that if you train in BJJ anymore, you're also getting a LOT of wrestling techniques. There isn't really any "pure" BJJ in this day and age. This is because so many wrestlers have gotten into BJJ. As a result, the takedowns and control is getting better and better all the time.


-John

[arnisador]

I think that if you train in BJJ anymore, you're also getting a LOT of wrestling techniques. There isn't really any "pure" BJJ in this day and age. This is because so many wrestlers have gotten into BJJ.
You make a good point, but I would go a little further...many BJJers are adding wrestling for the takedowns and for the experience of working against wrestlers. I see a lot of cross-training between these communities.

[Shogun]

I think that if you train in BJJ anymore, you're also getting a LOT of wrestling techniques. There isn't really any "pure" BJJ in this day and age.

I have to disagree. Although correct for the most part, it is not entirly my opinion. Helio Gracie's current lineage (Gracie Academy) and Pedro Sauer Academy both use the old method of Jiu Jitsu. almost all other schools do use wrestling techniques in their BJJ, though. this comes from MMA training. If you sparred with a Pedro Sauer student, you'll feel it. They are like noodles. and, like noodles, the more you play with them the more they get sticky and start to wrap around you.....

[JKogas]

I have to disagree. Although correct for the most part, it is not entirly my opinion. Helio Gracie's current lineage (Gracie Academy) and Pedro Sauer Academy both use the old method of Jiu Jitsu. almost all other schools do use wrestling techniques in their BJJ, though. this comes from MMA training. If you sparred with a Pedro Sauer student, you'll feel it. They are like noodles. and, like noodles, the more you play with them the more they get sticky and start to wrap around you.....
You mean to say that there aren't any front quarter nelsons? No one does a pancake? No duck unders? No single legs? No sprawling? No short-drags to get out of the quarter position on the bottom?

I didn't realize that. I see them almost everywhere.

-John

[arnisador]

the quarter position on the bottom?
Hmmm, I don't know this by this name?

[Gray Phoenix]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.

[MJS]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.

Prior to people cross training in both arts, and adding aspects from one another, I'd have to say that there was a distinct difference.

Wrestlers have now added the submissions, positions, etc. from BJJ, and the BJJ players have added clinch work, takedowns, etc. from Wrestling, so yes, now I can see them as more one in the same.

Mike

[Han-Mi]

Wresteling is great for ground and pound, but leaves a person open in plenty of ways for BJJ submissions and locks. If you have 2 equally skilled opponents, the emphasis would have to be on the finish, and In my oppinion the BJJ would have the upper hand on number of opportunities and ability to capitalize. And this is coming from someone who wrestled for 6 years scholastically and dabbles in BJJ.

[arnisador]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same.
I know what you mean, but I think it's much too soon to make this strong of a statement. But, I think BBJ is absorbing a lot of wrestling...less so the other way around.

[NotQuiteDead]

BBJ and Wrestling are pretty much the same thing. The differences are in origin, but they have become so melded by the rules of ring, they have become one in the same. No... actual wrestling is very different from BJJ. Look at the rules.

[Shogun]

You mean to say that there aren't any front quarter nelsons? No one does a pancake? No duck unders? No single legs? No sprawling? No short-drags to get out of the quarter position on the bottom?

I didn't realize that. I see them almost everywhere.

-John
I can tell you those arent Traditional BJJ tehcniques. The Bajana is the double leg, but it is VERY different from Wrestling's takedown. BJJ doesnt sprawl. we pull guard. If you are talking about stuff in MMA then yes, all of those are there. Rolls Gracie and Carlson GRacie brought wrestling and Sambo into the world of Vale Tudo . Carlson uses a lot og wrestling in his branch of BJJ but I was talking about Helio, Rorion, Pedro sauer, Royler, or any of the BJJ traditionalists. What is a short quarter drag? BJJ has about 90 sweeps.....

[analyst]

No... actual wrestling is very different from BJJ. Look at the rules.
Nail on the head.

I'm an ex-highschool wrestler, reasonably skilled (won league but didn't go to state). I took BJJ a couple months ago for some 6-odd sessions. Did a lot of rolling with more experienced people. Here are my thoughts:

-I could almost always get the takedown on a BJJ person. That could have just been a flaw of my bjj gym, as it was just too small to allow a lot of standing work.
-I could usually maintain position, and sometimes improve it on lesser-skilled BJJ-ers
-I could usually prevent submission attempts
-But it always resulted in a stalemate with me in their guard, unable to pass

so basically, doing pure collegiate or freestyle wrestling gives you a very good sense of movement, balance, and position. The takedowns rock and it gives you almost a 6th sense on the ground for position. But you will stall out due to lack of any submissions. Being "in guard" is a new experience, as a wrestler I was like "what now. He's on his damn back, i won."

ALthough in reality I could've just punched him out. Under BJJ rules I just sat there and tried to avoid collar chokes and armbars.

To reiterate the poster I quoted, both are styles adapted to their rules. Neither is complete, I daresay BJJ is more effective than wrestling just because "keep some guy on his back" is not a viable combat goal but "break his arm" comes a little closer.

[Shogun]

Not to doubt your skill of wrestling, I am sure you are amazing, but what rank were these BJJ guys? It sounds like they are missing the point of Brasilian Jiu Jitsu, which is to get positioning before going for a submission. My friend is an outstanding Collegiate wrestler, placed second in state, is a payed Pro wrestler, and now wrestles for national, and I can tell you he would'nt be able to last more than 2-4 minutes with a BJJ purple belt or even blue belt who wanted to tap him. maybe not so in every case, as some people just arent good at applying BJJ but most that practice it are.

Let me finish by saying I do not doubt any wrestling. I wrestled in school for a little bit, I have Pro wrestling training, and love all aspects of wrestling. I am simply saying that a BJJ guy works on sweeps and submissions, and SHOULD be able to do them.
this goes back to me saying that people should not rush to get their BJJ ranks as they make the art look bad. You cannot get a BJJ Black belt in 3 years.

[MJS]

It sounds like they are missing the point of Brasilian Jiu Jitsu, which is to get positioning before going for a submission.

Right on!!!! That is definately a key point that many people over look! People can know all the submissions in the world, but if they can't maintain good position and stay on the person long enough, what good are the subs.??

Mike

[arnisador]

Yes, go for position--the submissions will follow!

[JKogas]

I see things being less and less "pure" all the time (in terms on one's chosen art - BJJ in the case). Evolution is always a good idea. That is simply moving toward efficiency. For example it was said that a short drag isn't a traditional BJJ technique. Yet it works. It works to get you out of a bad position. So why doesn't it BECOME a traditional BJJ technique if it works and results in a reversal? (That's a rhetorical question folks).

I'll answer that! When you begin seeing BJJ guys DOING that short drag (as I have. Plus I use it as well), then it certainly HAS become a BJJ technique - traditional or not. Sure it comes from wrestling, but the wrestling will (eventually, considering how many wrestlers are now coming into the game) make jiu-jitsu a LOT better.

In the end of the day, it's ALL wrestling. Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys would do themselves a HUGE favor by coming OUT of the kimono for a bit and doing their jiu-jitsu NO-GI. I can hear SOME people gasp out loud at my sacrelige. It's the reliance on cloth that could actually be holding them back.
-John

[Shogun]

As a martial art that has a grandmaster, it is not BJJ until master Helio says it is.

BTW, BJJ was designed so a small guy could defend himself against a big guy. when was the last time you got into a naked street fight?

[arnisador]

I have mixed feelings on the gi/no-gi thing...as they say, if you can escape in the gi, you're in business.

Best training: Me in gi, partner not. I have to work harder to escape, and to hold him!

[Shogun]

The gi gives the practitioners the ability to gain a solid base. kinda like you said. It also is more realistic, in that it simulates a coat, or shirt. No-gi is good, but I believe wearing a gi should be the primary method of teaching BJJ. Every REAL bjj school also teaches no Gi techniques.




Best training: Me in gi, partner not. I have to work harder to escape, and to hold him!


It also dries out a no gi guy pretty good. Royce Gracie has invented a hundred moves to use if the other person isnt wearing a gi. underhooks, overhooks, chokes, and even armbars, and pass guards with your own gi. My instrcutor is good with them and has shown me a lot.

[NotQuiteDead]

IMO it'd be better to start without the gi and then later start using it. No-gi techniques can be used whether or not you're wearing a gi. If you start gi-grappling later then it'll be easier to hold on to them and there will be more gripping opportunities. Besides, you would probably learn to react faster when grappling with a slick opponent than you would if you started out in a gi.

[Shogun]

You cant learn the fine points of bjj by starting w/o a Gi. The gi develops a strong base. you learn to defend from every possible attack without it. once you are good with the gi, taking it off and grappling should seem very easy. There is a "combat grappling" type school in salt lake city, utah where the guys only do no gi. they often challenge Pedro Sauer's students who are trained about 70% in the gi. to this day they havent won a match. If you can become good with a gi on, the rest is like breathing.

[NotQuiteDead]

If your goal is to get good at gi grappling, then obviously training with a gi would be better. However, if you're interested in no-gi, then starting in a gi doesn't seem like it'd be worth it. You have to change the way you clinch, take people down, etc. and then learn how to deal with people just slipping out of holds.

[RSJ]

You know, BJJ and Wrestling are both good arts on their own. Put them together and you have an almost unbeatable art. It's a pick 'em game as far as one versus the other goes. Sure, BJJ is great on the ground but wrestlers can take them down and establish a good position. Then again, a BJJ guy can sweep and on his back, a pure wrestler is screwed more or less.

[NotQuiteDead]

and on his back, a pure wrestler is screwed more or less. I don't see why someone who spends a lot of time training to get off of his back against guys who train to put him there would be "screwed" if he was put on his back.

[RSJ]

I don't see why someone who spends a lot of time training to get off of his back against guys who train to put him there would be "screwed" if he was put on his back.
Tell me this, do amatuer wrestler train in submission defense ? No, they do not. When on your back, you tend to be somewhat more susceptible to submissions as you are not able to move as freely.

[Shogun]

I dont think it is so much a wrestler being on their back, as trying to get back on top. wrestling has some very good techniques for reversing the bottom position, but most of them involve turning your back, which is rule #1 of things not to do against a BJJ person. Beofre I did BJJ, I was primarily a Japanese JJ guy. JJJ has some very good arm locks when someone is behind you, so I could usually escape when some one was on my back. I didnt really understand the importance of not giving your back until going to more BJJ classes and watching all the other guys getting choked.

[NotQuiteDead]

I dont think it is so much a wrestler being on their back, as trying to get back on top. wrestling has some very good techniques for reversing the bottom position, but most of them involve turning your back, which is rule #1 of things not to do against a BJJ person. Beofre I did BJJ, I was primarily a Japanese JJ guy. JJJ has some very good arm locks when someone is behind you, so I could usually escape when some one was on my back. I didnt really understand the importance of not giving your back until going to more BJJ classes and watching all the other guys getting choked. After going from submission wrestling to folkstyle wrestling and then back again, I think that the fact that I gave up my back a lot in wrestling was a good thing, because now I'm a lot better at getting people off of my back.

Anyways, I was just responding to the post about wrestlers being screwed when they're on their backs.

[arnisador]

Folkstyle wrestling--yeah, there are different types of wrestling, which can make a difference in the experience one gets.

[Shogun]

we should have made it clear before. Wrestling doesnt always = Scholastic wrestling. Most of my experience comes from greco roman and pre-WWE Pro wrestling. a lot of real submissions. Lou thesz type stuff.

[RSJ]

Catch wrestling, you mean ? Sure, scholastic wrestling and pro wrestling are just subcatagories of catch.

[NotQuiteDead]

Shogun, how does catch differ from bjj (aside from not using a gi)? I think I read something before about catch wrestlers not being so concerned with getting good position before getting sub.

[Shogun]

well, thats kinda it. submissions are geared around positioning. instead of "getting to knee on belly before doing the armbar", its do the armbar or variation where you are at. the submisions are different feeling too. the guillotine is more of a neck crank than a choke. the americana is more of a small muscle pull than a large muscle pull (as in bjj). the submissions are usually quicker acting, though cause less damage in fully applied. most have a burning feeling rather than a stretching feeling.

however, both martial arts are very effective in their own rights, if used properly.


Catch wrestling, you mean ? Sure, scholastic wrestling and pro wrestling are just subcatagories of catch.
Yeah pretty much. its all wrestling. but it all has something different to offer.

[arnisador]

instead of "getting to knee on belly before doing the armbar", its do the armbar or variation where you are at. the submisions are different feeling too. the guillotine is more of a neck crank than a choke. the americana is more of a small muscle pull than a large muscle pull (as in bjj). the submissions are usually quicker acting, though cause less damage in fully applied. most have a burning feeling rather than a stretching feeling.
Hmmm, the submissions are usually quicker acting, but cause less damage. I find this interesting and would be curious to hear more examples. Choking someone out puts them out, and breaking an arm breaks an arm...those end the fight. But what if something short of that is done, the person cries "Uncle!" and is let up, and then decides to continue the fight? Or do you not mean that much less damaging...I'm not so familiar with wrestling other than the high school wrestling I did.

[Shogun]

its kinda hard to explain. obviously, catch wrestling has the armbar and rear naked choke, but stuff like the armbar and Bicep slicer are applied differently. they have the potential to cause as much damage, but they are applied in a way that causes pain much quicker. I have seen people in the UFC who do not tap from an armbar right away. a catch wresler's armbar causes extreme pain on the tendons and nerves, forcing a quicker submission.

[arnisador]

Interesting...I'll have to find a seminar on it or something.

[Shogun]

That'd be easier. a good reference is the Tony Cecchine Catch wrestling DVD set.

its (I think) ten tapes on four discs for 150. Most of what I know comes from Pro wrestlers, but their training took place under old school pro wrestlers like "playboy" buddy rose.
BTW, I dont know if you've done Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but they have an application called Itami Jime, or pain choke. it can be applied to a cross choke for more effectiveness. Catch has little things like that.

[arnisador]

No, I'm studying BJJ now and wrestled in high school. I've done just a little bit of Judo and Aikido, but that's it for grappling arts.

Thanks for the tips--I would like to check this out.

[Shogun]

Your welcome. definitly check it out. I cannot explain it with my words. seek out either the dvds or one of the few instructors. be advised, Tony Cecchine, Matt Furey, and Gene Lebell all come from different lineages, and therefore, different techniques. they are considered to be today's experts. personally, studying under a retired pro wrestler from the 50's, 60's, or 70's will get you unchanged Catch without the influences of BJJ, Sambo, or Judo.

[NotQuiteDead]

Do you have any experience with Tony Cecchine's tapes? I've been thinking about getting his set for a while but I'm not sure about it yet. Also, if you've ever seen any tapes etc. from the other people you mentioned, which would you recommend? Thanks.

[Shogun]

I have a little experience with the tapes. I do not have them but have viewed them a few times. I personally like them. They were packed full of different ideas. the tapes emphasize the difference between the way BJJ does something, and the way Catch does it. Gene's dvds and books I have not seen. I have seen a little of matt furey's stuff, and it looked kinda like BJJ....so....not too sure.

[NotQuiteDead]

I went ahead and ordered Tony's tapes and IMO they are good, although I haven't seen any other grappling instructionals. The way he shows the positions seems more comfortable to me, probably because of the wrestling I did. Everything seems a lot tighter (possibly because it was developed without a gi unlike judo and bjj). The way he shows the keylock is awesome.

Some of the submissions seem kind of risky (such as stepping over from side control to a head scissors), though.

[Shogun]

they are good, although I haven't seen any other grappling instructionals.

I have seen many grappling instructionals, and I have the same opinion, so they must be good. I lve the keylock from catch. it hurts. badly.
The reason I think the positions seem risky, is that...well....catch wrestlers typically dont worry about positioning as much.

[NotQuiteDead]

The reason I think the positions seem risky, is that...well....catch wrestlers typically dont worry about positioning as much. IMO the way he shows the positions offers more control (by putting more of your weight onto the opponent and taking away as much space as possible), but if you're talking about the "submission over position" strategy then I see what you're saying.

Even though he does focus on submissions more maintaining a good position, it happens in bjj, judo, etc. as well. People regularly give up the mount to go for an arm bar. Ironically, Tony shows arm bars from the mount that allow you to stay on top.

[Shogun]

but if you're talking about the "submission over position" strategy then I see what you're saying.Yeah, thats what I meant.


People regularly give up the mount to go for an arm bar. Ironically, Tony shows arm bars from the mount that allow you to stay on top.One thing that I've noticed, is that if you spend time with a BJJ master, they will show you the secret techniques such as full mount armbar (one requiring no additional movement from the mount). This stuff is kinda the norm in catch though.

[arnisador]

The full mount armbar--can you share this secret?

[NotQuiteDead]

Hmm... is it the one where you get their arm under your arm pit like you're doing an achilles lock, or one where you step one foot up by their head and lock their arm against your thigh? Those are the only ones I can think of.

[Shogun]

Its not really an "all powerful" techique but you can suprise someone with it.

1. mount high. pull the elbows up if you need to.
2. point knees forward, (think leapfrog) and toes on the ground. heels up.
3. turn ever so slightly to the side you are attacking.
4. pull arm like you would and armbar, but slightly towards your thigh.
5. make em say uncle



Hmm... is it the one where you get their arm under your arm pit like you're doing an achilles lock, or one where you step one foot up by their head and lock their arm against your thigh? Those are the only ones I can think of.
combine those two, and thats what it looks like.

[NotQuiteDead]

Shogun, have you seen anything from Hidetaka Aso, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, or Bill Coggs?

[Old Tiger]

Aso and Fujiwara are excellent. Bill's name is actually Bill Cogswell of www.groundfight.com . He has a number of excellent DVD's on grappling available through that site. I am sure anyone at any level of trainining will benefit from them. You may be interesting in joining and contributing to one of the best grappling forums on the internet, also available through that site.

[NotQuiteDead]

Oops, yeah I messed his name up. I'm already registered on his forum although I haven't posted much.

[Kane]

Alright I'll add my input in this thread. I have been wrestling for a very long time, for over 13 years now. I have done a little BJJ, and it is quite useful when adding with wrestling. However, it is a common misconception that wrestlers don't learn submissions, because they do. Of course this is not studied in that much detail, but we do learn some interesting techniques. We learn some leg locks, which can be very painful submissions and we also learn special headlocks that block the windpipe. Of course I am not sure whether these are legal in BJJ, I have really only done it for about 6 months. Still BJJ is very helpful for those going into MMA and want to learn submissions from the mount which wrestling offers so little of.

[arnisador]

we also learn special headlocks that block the windpipe.
I wrestled in high school and I used that technique to defend myself.

[RSJ]

Bill Cogswell and the crew over at Groundfight are awsome ! All grapplers should sign up; it'll learn you some good stuff.

[nhbSDMF]

Another grappler for Groundfight. Great board.

[Eric Daniel]

Hey everyone, I am knew to this forum. I find this a very interesting topic of discusion. I ( like most of you) believe that wrestling and BJJ have both been an impact on each other. I think that some wreslers can and have benefited from BJJ and BJJ players can benefit from wrestling. I have a friend who wrestles in high school and he went to a BJJ seminar three years ago and he told me that since going there it has benefited his wrestling takedowns.