Roots of Hwa Rang Do

[foolbae1228]

Hey, everyone. I have been told many things about the roots of Hwa Rang Do and that DJN Joo Bang Lee learned and mastered the art from Swam Dosa, but now I'm hearing other rumors and want to know what is truth. Is the Hwa Rang Do related to other arts, and what do we have to prove or disprove DJN's story? Any and all tips are welcome, and please tell me where you found this information, so that I can look as well.

Farang-
Ryan

[Bob D.]

Hello Ryan, Welcome! I think most of your question can be answered by searching back in past posts. Where do you study?
regards, Bob

[foolbae1228]

Farang, Mr. Donnelly


I train in Payson, AZ with SBN Chris Bailey. He is the one that refered me to this site. Can you tell me which threads/posts would be helpful in my search?

Hope to talk to you soon, hopefully meet you one day as well.

Farang
Ryan

[Bob D.]

Oh, That instructor. Gee, you guys have it rough up there in Payson! (I'm just jealous of course).
I'd have to do the same search you would. A search back on KMA-general is a start. Also check out "society of Hwa rang" website.

[foolbae1228]

Farang

Will do, thanks a bunch. (And you're right, it is really rough up here).

Farang
Ryan

[arnisador]

Is the Hwa Rang Do related to other arts, and what do we have to prove or disprove DJN's story?
As I understand it, internal and external consistency form the main arguments against the story given in the three Ohara books on HRD, and the usual countertheory is that it's principally a modified form of Hapkido.

But the advice to search the fora here is good advice.

[floweringknight]

Ryan - Here is what I have been able to uncover so far:

1 - Your teacher (and his teachers) learned Hwa Rang Do from Joo Bang Lee

2 - Joo Bang Lee learned Hapkido from Yong Sool Choi (Lee was said to be his highest ranking student) plus probably some Tae Kyon as well as other "stuff".

3 - Yong Sool Choi learned Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sul from Takeda Sogaku (in Japan, where it was called Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu) Yong Sool Choi was believed to be among Takeda's highest ranking students. Takeda was the Head Master there.....sorry I can't find the name of the dojo....a conspiracy I'm sure.
Please remember: This is not etched in stone; rather, scribbled in chalk on the sidewalk. EVERYONE please correct any and ALL inconsistencies, errors, wrongs, mistakes, fallacies, etc. Thanks. And by all means please add, add, add!

[glad2bhere]

If I can put just a bit of tweaking in here......

HwaRangdo at one time was called HwaRang Kwan Hapkido. There is still a person in San Francisco who teaches under this label.

Kuk Sool Won at one time was Kuk Sool Hapkido.

Han Pul was a derivation of Chois' tradition of Hapkido. There are many other examples of derivations to the Choi tradition.

Before Hapkido was called "hapkido" it was called "Hapki yukwonsul". Before that it was Hapkiyusool. Before that it was just "yu sool" which is the Korean rendering of the same characters for "Yawara" and for "ju-jutsu". In the case of the heritage we are speaking of, the "yawara" in this case was derived from the "ki-ai" or "sen-sen" side of what was called the DRAJJ tradition after 1915, so named by Takeda Sokaku. Derivations of this art run the gamut from Yanagi-ryu JJ to Shorinji-ryu Kempo and beyond. So.... when you talk about Joo Bang Lee and the HwaRangDo, what you are actually talking about is a derivation, of a derivation, of a subset of an art. No magic. No mysticism. Just simple history. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[floweringknight]

Bruce - Thank you for filling in the gaps! I continue to learn.....Do you know the history of DRAJJ? When and where it started? Thanks again.

[glad2bhere]

Yes, I do, but there are so many sources written by people who are much more knowledgeable concerning this information that I am not sure you would want to have me respond. I would strongly encourage you to go to one of these resources directly.

An older source of sound standing is the late Don Draeger. His three volume set on the history of the Japanaese traditions is classic as he was perhaps the first person to really open Japanese traditions to the West. Since you are particularly interested in DRAJJ see volume 3 ("Modern Bujutsu and Budo") Chapter 8. Its is entitled "Aikido" but goes well back into the history of DRAJJ.
(ISBN 0-8348-0351-8)

A newer source was written by Stanley Pranin. His book is a history of DRAJJ as told through a series of interviews with the greatest figures in DRAJJ history. There is no one, single story, but rather the reader is able to get a multi-view presentation of the History as seen through different eyes at different times. "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" begins with a kind of standard history and then follows with seven interviews and a DRAJJ sampler of techniques. (ISBN 4-900586-18-8)

I think this is about as close to the horses' mouth as you are going to get.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[foolbae1228]

Wow! All of these sources are great! Thank you all very much.


Farang-
Ryan

[floweringknight]

I truly appreciate your help! Thank you.

[DuneViking]

If I can put just a bit of tweaking in here......

HwaRangdo at one time was called HwaRang Kwan Hapkido. There is still a person in San Francisco who teaches under this label.

Kuk Sool Won at one time was Kuk Sool Hapkido.

Han Pul was a derivation of Chois' tradition of Hapkido. There are many other examples of derivations to the Choi tradition.

Before Hapkido was called "hapkido" it was called "Hapki yukwonsul". Before that it was Hapkiyusool. Before that it was just "yu sool" which is the Korean rendering of the same characters for "Yawara" and for "ju-jutsu". In the case of the heritage we are speaking of, the "yawara" in this case was derived from the "ki-ai" or "sen-sen" side of what was called the DRAJJ tradition after 1915, so named by Takeda Sokaku. Derivations of this art run the gamut from Yanagi-ryu JJ to Shorinji-ryu Kempo and beyond. So.... when you talk about Joo Bang Lee and the HwaRangDo, what you are actually talking about is a derivation, of a derivation, of a subset of an art. No magic. No mysticism. Just simple history. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

BruceVery nice job G2BH! Consider this an addition to your reputation, its all I can find how to do since there are no scales for me to use. :-partyon:

This info explains why I had not heard of HwarangDo other than in historical context until discovering this forum. I had heard of Hapkido even as a kid back in the 60-70s, but I understand how things evolve and that understanding is a three edged sword (well according to Kosh Naranek).

[Bearhugj]

Ryan
One interesting item,
(I know there is of course a lot of discussion as to hwa rang do's roots)
but...
as to Su Am Do Sa....
the Words "Do Sa" are really a "title" that is frequently used in Buddist circles, but the meaning can be a bit ambigous as it's an ancient word. but I suppose it's meaning can be likened to the highest levels of mastery of buddhism. When I was in korea my first time back in the late 80's, even general people were familiar with Su Am Do Sa as a public figure in Buddhism. As to the name Su Am, I think that's probably a name he took on after becoming a Monk. Most monks take on names that have some meaning in buddist and probably have roots in ancient Sanskrit from India....as "su am" is not at all a typical korean name.

[shesulsa]

The pointy end of the secret police worked for the king for free? :BSmeter:

These kind of things take money. Lots of money. People need to be trained. They need equipment. They need supplies. They need clothes for their children, food, land, houses, livestock, and so on. By way of comparison single mounted warrior and his retinue took the entire agricultural surplus of a European village. And these guys did all that and more and in secret for nothing? That's worse than unbelievable. It's an insult to the reader's intelligence. Besides, no king would trust people like that. He'd want them on the payroll, depending on his money. Loyalty is nice, but gold pays the bills, and free labor goes away when money is tight.

I'll bet plenty of six to five or even seven to ten that these fairy tales started getting traction after the ninja craze started. "They have ninja? We have Super Good Guy Ninja!"

I love how you so vehemently attack all things you disagree with. If you weren't so elequent, it'd be tiresome. :lookie:

The non-military and some military hwarang were nobility and most were of higher society, hence they didn't really need a lot of money - though one can reasonably conclude certainly they enjoyed *some* recognition or appreciative pittance in one form or another. Although the shadow of doubt as a result of *extreme* filial piety is perpetually cast - enough to say it's actually plausible that some of these people did serve their king for free. The tales of loyalty, suicide pacts, determination are the stuff of legend on the peninsula ... North and South.

Again, this is the verbal history I've received - and we just cannot know all the *real* history of all Asia. Few things are more proverbial than the constant coups and rewritten history forthwith.

So ... before you hop on your horse and try to run away with my flag again ... read the words I typed ... "This is the verbal history I've been given."

[shesulsa]

You know, folks, even Joo Bang Lee has stated that many of the monestaries in China were attended by Korean monks.

Arts have been shared across borders, folks. Come on. You say Potayto and I say Potahto.

Do you *think* it might be *plausible* that there have been spies who brought training secrets back to their own militaries? Perhaps hundreds or thousands of years ago? And as arts were cultivated on the peninsula and in the north these arts grew? and perhaps were augmented by further recon? I'm sorry, the whole lineage thing just leaves me dry (with all due respect to Xue and others like him).

When you fight or spar someone, do you take notice of their strengths and weaknesses? their approach to offense and defense? their strategy? Has this ever changed your approach to either the same individual or others? Don't you think you might not be the first person to do so?

I don't see the necessity of bashing arts, beliefs, oral history, persons sharing these things herein, if we can all just accept that the most likely result is almost definitely what did happen.

*Dons Forest Gump voice* ... 'And that's all I have to say about thayat."

*shesulsa voice* ... maybe ... ;)

[tellner]

And we already know that Joo Bang Lee lied like a cheap carpet about so much of what he did, who he trained with, his background and so on. His fairy tales about learning the secret sacred millennia-old warrior arts of the mystical-mystical Hwarang were just that, fairy stories. He can certainly fight, no doubt about that. And he's turned out lots of good people. But he has no credibility when it comes to history. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

[Tom]

I don't see the necessity of bashing arts, beliefs, oral history, persons sharing these things herein, if we can all just accept that the most likely result is almost definitely what did happen. Yeah but no one here is saying hwa rang do sucks! They're just saying that some tall tales that started getting spread around in the 1980s were prolly just that: tall tales. When someone wants to tell me about there art, I give a lot more creedence to people that actually talk about their art. The talk about what their forms are like and what stuff they do. The people that talk about some mythic or spiritual or esoteric stuff leave me with serious doubt. You like to talk a lot ma'am based on how much you hang out here, but the fact that you don't talk about your training means your point of view hasn't done much to change my mind. Peace out.

[tellner]

Shesulsa, take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't say "They don't have skills." I didn't say "They can't turn out good students." In fact, I very explicitly said just the opposite.

I'm saying that they lied about where they got what they got and got caught at it. Lies are not the truth no matter how good they make a person feel. It's not "respect" to accept lies as the truth when the evidence is there in front of you. It's evil. It's not "bashing" to point out where someone has told a lie and to refuse to smile and go along with it.

Two plus two equals four no matter how much you admire the person who says it's five.

Blacks are not inferior subhumans no matter how many Klansmen fervently believe otherwise.

The Holy Father, the Holy Church, human decency and a millennium and a half of tradition and Holy Doctrine said that the Earth was fixed in the center of the Universe, and the Sun revolved around it. Galileo was right to say "It still moves" even though everyone respectable said otherwise.

And Joo Bang Lee did not learn two thousand year old secrets of an extinct sect of Super Hwarang Warriors. He and his brother made that story up as has been documented elsewhere. It doesn't detract from his creation. But it does make him unreliable with regards to his personal honesty. It's sad, but that's the only way to call it.

This isn't being "vehement". It's not attacking you, your martial arts or the Korean peninsula and the people who live there. It's a matter of plain honesty and integrity. Recognizing the important and valuable things and not mixing them with lies increases the worth of those accomplishments. Adulterating them with fraud and falsehood cheapens them and tarnishes their good name.

[Doc_Jude]

Shesulsa, take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't say "They don't have skills." I didn't say "They can't turn out good students." In fact, I very explicitly said just the opposite.

I'm saying that they lied about where they got what they got and got caught at it. Lies are not the truth no matter how good they make a person feel. It's not "respect" to accept lies as the truth when the evidence is there in front of you. It's evil. It's not "bashing" to point out where someone has told a lie and to refuse to smile and go along with it.

Two plus two equals four no matter how much you admire the person who says it's five.

Blacks are not inferior subhumans no matter how many Klansmen fervently believe otherwise.

The Holy Father, the Holy Church, human decency and a millennium and a half of tradition and Holy Doctrine said that the Earth was fixed in the center of the Universe, and the Sun revolved around it. Galileo was right to say "It still moves" even though everyone respectable said otherwise.

And Joo Bang Lee did not learn two thousand year old secrets of an extinct sect of Super Hwarang Warriors. He and his brother made that story up as has been documented elsewhere. It doesn't detract from his creation. But it does make him unreliable with regards to his personal honesty. It's sad, but that's the only way to call it.

This isn't being "vehement". It's not attacking you, your martial arts or the Korean peninsula and the people who live there. It's a matter of plain honesty and integrity. Recognizing the important and valuable things and not mixing them with lies increases the worth of those accomplishments. Adulterating them with fraud and falsehood cheapens them and tarnishes their good name.

Well, I hope you feel the same about Pak Serak then...

[shesulsa]

And we already know that Joo Bang Lee lied like a cheap carpet about so much of what he did, who he trained with, his background and so on. His fairy tales about learning the secret sacred millennia-old warrior arts of the mystical-mystical Hwarang were just that, fairy stories. He can certainly fight, no doubt about that. And he's turned out lots of good people. But he has no credibility when it comes to history. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Hwa Rang Do is a great, comprehensive style. I like it very much. So I hesitate greatly to so freely criticize its founder as you and others do.


Shesulsa, take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't say "They don't have skills." I didn't say "They can't turn out good students." In fact, I very explicitly said just the opposite.

I don't see where I said you said this. Please don't do this again - twist or create my words and spit them back to me. It isn't polite and it's wrong - calls upon that moral compass you're thumping here. Am I misreading your intent? You're using quotation marks which implies I said those things and I did not.


I'm saying that they lied about where they got what they got and got caught at it. Lies are not the truth no matter how good they make a person feel. It's not "respect" to accept lies as the truth when the evidence is there in front of you. It's evil. It's not "bashing" to point out where someone has told a lie and to refuse to smile and go along with it.

Well now, there's refusing to smile and go along with it and then there's blatant name-calling. You'll excuse me while I smile and ... you name-call. Please see my first paragraph.


Blacks are not inferior subhumans no matter how many Klansmen fervently believe otherwise.
What the hell does this have to do with the argument? What is it doing here?


The Holy Father, the Holy Church, human decency and a millennium and a half of tradition and Holy Doctrine said that the Earth was fixed in the center of the Universe, and the Sun revolved around it. Galileo was right to say "It still moves" even though everyone respectable said otherwise.

And Joo Bang Lee did not learn two thousand year old secrets of an extinct sect of Super Hwarang Warriors. He and his brother made that story up as has been documented elsewhere. It doesn't detract from his creation. But it does make him unreliable with regards to his personal honesty. It's sad, but that's the only way to call it.

This isn't being "vehement". It's not attacking you, your martial arts or the Korean peninsula and the people who live there. It's a matter of plain honesty and integrity. Recognizing the important and valuable things and not mixing them with lies increases the worth of those accomplishments. Adulterating them with fraud and falsehood cheapens them and tarnishes their good name.

You're not the first one to speak so freely about the Lee Brothers. If you noticed, I have often referred the rare HRD inquirer here to www.hwarang.org and www.dsystem.com to read carefully the accounts of others whom have been ostracized and legally sued by the Lees.


Yeah but no one here is saying hwa rang do sucks! They're just saying that some tall tales that started getting spread around in the 1980s were prolly just that: tall tales. When someone wants to tell me about there art, I give a lot more creedence to people that actually talk about their art. The talk about what their forms are like and what stuff they do. The people that talk about some mythic or spiritual or esoteric stuff leave me with serious doubt. You like to talk a lot ma'am based on how much you hang out here, but the fact that you don't talk about your training means your point of view hasn't done much to change my mind. Peace out.
How lucky others here are to be able to discuss their art. Some in the non-WHRDA camp have been sued for even professing to teach the HRD syllabus. I would not dream of potentially endangering others or myself on this leg of the non-WHRDA faction.

You're not the first person to address me for not discussing my training much. There are several reasons to that. The most important reason to me is the one above. There are plenty of people pointing fingers in the direction of doubt. Why must I do it? Why must my teacher do it? The questions are there. The testimony of others is there. The techniques, forms, approaches are there. Once again, I need to say what? and why? So I may be sued? So my teacher may be sued? others in our line may be sued? Sorry. I really don't think so. If you don't have respect for that, that's fine with me. I'm not here to earn anyone's respect, really. I am not out to change your mind.

I came here to learn a little, share a little, chat some, and mostly have fun. I am limited by my choice, but ... I'm okay with that. I assume that if Bob Hubbard, the owner here, has a problem with that, he'll have a discussion with me.

And if anyone here who attended the '06 Meet and Greet is honest, they will tell you I have not trained hard in a while (personal and health reasons), I'm overweight and I am no great talent. I've never claimed to be a great talent - in fact I'm usually the first to acknowledge that I'm not. I am no LEE, by any stretch of the imagination.

Your premise, though, is interesting. You said:

When someone wants to tell me about there art, I give a lot more creedence to people that actually talk about their art. The talk about what their forms are like and what stuff they do.
and

but the fact that you don't talk about your training means your point of view hasn't done much to change my mind.
What is it you think I'm trying to change your mind about? Does it bother you that I remain outwardly neutral? Or rather ... 'unimpress' you?

Frankly ... that's too bad. I'm not here to impress anyone nor am I here to change anyone else's mind. Clearly I've miscommunicated my intent here ... I stated some vague opinion on the sulsa/ninja connection and martial art origins in general. I also stated my opinion on people in general going back and forth on origins. I never said I felt anyone here was bashing my teacher, the Korean people, etcetera. A few people took my statements to be defensive ones or construed them to think I took strong offense at the statements made here. I do not.

Welcome to MT.

[howard]

And we already know that Joo Bang Lee lied like a cheap carpet about so much of what he did, who he trained with, his background and so on. His fairy tales about learning the secret sacred millennia-old warrior arts of the mystical-mystical Hwarang were just that, fairy stories. He can certainly fight, no doubt about that. And he's turned out lots of good people. But he has no credibility when it comes to history. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Sadly, I pretty much agree with every point Tellner made in this post.

Didn't he teach "Hapkido" when he first immigrated to the US?

[shesulsa]

Sadly, I pretty much agree with every point Tellner made in this post.

Didn't he teach "Hapkido" when he first immigrated to the US?
Yes he did. ;)

[tellner]

Well, I hope you feel the same about Pak Serak then...

I have no idea if someone named Sera or Serak ever lived. I'm pretty sure about Djut because independent witnesses in Indonesia and the States confirm it. The stories tend to match.

I know that Sera in various forms is a West Javanese martial art. Other Silat players from other backgrounds say it looks like it has Cimande, Pamacan, maybe some Ciular, and some Chinese influence. They've got the expertise and don't have a horse in the Dutch Indo Horse Race. All of that would make sense. As it's practiced in Bandung - according to more than one person with good connections and experience - it's generally regarded as a Silat system with a healthy amount of Chinese influence, but not so much that it's classed as Kun Tao. That fits with the system as I've learned it.

That's about as much solid information as anyone is ever going to have on the subject. These were not people who kept careful written records.

The whole Bapak Sera, crippled member of the secretive Badui? I haven't seen any evidence that it's more than a creation myth. It might be true, but I certainly wouldn't bet actual cash money. Since other versions of the style don't have that particular story I doubt it.

Sorry, I'm not going to vigorously defend things I know are shaky at best. When I said "don't even get me started" about Southeast Asian martial arts history I was serious and definitely include the stuff I practice. Drakes and ducks, geese and ganders all get the same sauce.

[shesulsa]

I have no idea if someone named Sera or Serak ever lived. I'm pretty sure about Djut because independent witnesses in Indonesia and the States confirm it. The stories tend to match.

I know that Sera in various forms is a West Javanese martial art. Other Silat players from other backgrounds say it looks like it has Cimande, Pamacan, maybe some Ciular, and some Chinese influence. They've got the expertise and don't have a horse in the Dutch Indo Horse Race. All of that would make sense. As it's practiced in Bandung - according to more than one person with good connections and experience - it's generally regarded as a Silat system with a healthy amount of Chinese influence, but not so much that it's classed as Kun Tao. That fits with the system as I've learned it.

That's about as much solid information as anyone is ever going to have on the subject. These were not people who kept careful written records.

The whole Bapak Sera, crippled member of the secretive Badui? I haven't seen any evidence that it's more than a creation myth. It might be true, but I certainly wouldn't bet actual cash money. Since other versions of the style don't have that particular story I doubt it.

Sorry, I'm not going to vigorously defend things I know are shaky at best. When I said "don't even get me started" about Southeast Asian martial arts history I was serious and definitely include the stuff I practice. Drakes and ducks, geese and ganders all get the same sauce.

Well ... I gotta say that the sauce you served up here is bland at best compared to this:


And we already know that Joo Bang Lee lied like a cheap carpet about so much of what he did, who he trained with, his background and so on. His fairy tales about learning the secret sacred millennia-old warrior arts of the mystical-mystical Hwarang were just that, fairy stories. He can certainly fight, no doubt about that. And he's turned out lots of good people. But he has no credibility when it comes to history. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Now that's a-spicey!

Nevertheless, I prefer my goose with pomegranate sauce - dark meat, if you will. Hold the kimchi.

[SageGhost83]

.....This is why I am all for living in the present and not in the past. If what you do is effective and meets all of your needs *today*, then who in the hades cares about what so and so did back then. Don't get me wrong - I respect lineage and all, but why make such a huge stink about it? Are you practicing for *them* or are you practicing for *you*? As far as lying, what is wrong with just simply saying "I don't know"? If your skills are good and you produce good students, then I don't see how something like that makes your skills any less so. Joo Bang Lee should just admit that he took hapkido, added some stuff to it, and decided to rename it Hwarangdo. It's his art/org and he is producing good students. It wouldn't suddenly take away his skills and make him a poor martial artist. I wouldn't mind training with him, myself. However, I would never just openly insult someone, irregardless of if they are a martial artist or not. That is just plain disrespectful no matter how you slice it.

[tellner]

Shesulsa, here's the difference.

The Lee brothers lied about learning the 2000 year old martial art that they claimed to have learned from a mysterious monk. They made it and the story up after leaving Kuk Sul Won. That's established by the people who were around them at the time. And if they did learn MA at some monastery that magically disappeared dragging all record of its existence into the memory hole their claims to have learned a 2000 year old martial art that was unaltered in all that time are simply ludicrous. You'll note that they don't even say "We were told that..." They demand that the stories be accepted absolutely at face value.

The evidence for the existence of the Hwarang as any particular thing is thin. What were they? There's some speculation and an official government line. What documentation of any sort is there? Very, very little including (I believe) no written documents from the period that include more than a sentence or two. The Lee Brothers pretty clearly took the story and ran with it. Their martial art stands perfectly well on its own. There was no need other than marketing to make up fairy tales.

Sera exists in several different forms in Western Java and has for a while. Nobody knows how long. There is a number of stories about how it came to be, most of which nobody cares much about. The putative Ba Pak Sera? He may or may not have existed. I don't know. I don't think anyone does. The stories that specify exactly what martial arts and physical infirmities he had and which sub-tribe of which specific ethnic group I don't believe, especially when they get more detailed and impressive over time. I've said so many times and gotten personal threats of violence from the Faithful for saying so.

I really don't care which stories if any you believe about what happened more than a couple generations ago in Bandung. There are no records. That's a far cry from demanding that everyone believe without question a bunch of very grandiose and improbable claims about things martial arts that are older then Jesus surviving unaltered. I'll take a double helping of that when the people telling the stories have been exposed as having made a lot of them up.

I don't drink the Pandan-flavored Kool Aid and wouldn't expect you to without some sort of evidence. You demand that I do and consider anything left in the glass to be an attack on you, your teachers, your martial arts and probably the entire Korean peninsula.

Dragging it back to the ninja vs. sulsa thing, we know that the ninja stories are exaggerated and mythologized. Techniques of espionage and concealment were parts of many Japanese martial arts including ones which go back five hundred years or thereabouts and for which there are extensive records and an unbroken chain of transmission. Stories about mysterious clans of assassins with super powers who ran around dressed like Japanese stage-hands have to be treated with the utmost skepticism.

You'll note that I said I was sure there were people called sulsa. But what records do we have of who they were and what they did? The stuff that started appearing in the marital arts rags a few years ago was pretty obviously designed to cash in on the ninja chic. "They're our ninjas(sic), but they're better cooler ninjas because they're Korean ninjas, and Koreans are pretty cool." I'm skeptical. But when someone says "And with all their neat equipment and extensive training and support needs they worked for free out of pure patriotism, and the kings never wanted them under direct control" I call BS exactly the same way as I do with other people's ridiculous claims when they try to drag them out of mythology and call them history.

Stories have their own truth that derives from what they inspire in us and the lessons that teaches. They are not the same as ploddingly literal fact or historical inference. Confusing them is an understandable error. Demanding unquestioning belief when someone points out the inconsistencies is plumb stupid.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think we all need to look a little at the Eastern perspective. Having been in the East a bit I have come to understand that many of the stories are tall tales or embellished a bit. They may actually have facts to them but they also seem to grow in proportion to the truth. I have found this in many cultures in the far east and to some extent yes it also happens here in the West as well. (heck we have alot of tall tales too!!!)

Is Hwa Rang Do a good art: I think in general most people say yes as it is very comprehensive. Did the founder's possibly embellish it's history? Well probably yes as that seems very common in the culture. Do the practitioner's that study it gain alot? Well most Hwa Rang Do people I have met enjoy their training and the pragmatic appraoch to what they do. Does it have flaws? Well every system ever created by a man does. That is just the reality! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif