Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself.I want to take something that is very diverse.I understand what works in actual street fights and am looking for a style that incorperates striking but also doesnt forget the importance of grappling.Something that is a complete art.What martial art exists that is actually practical for street fighting/defense.Which teaches all aspects together?There are many Kajukenbo schools in my area.What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?I live 30 minutes from Fairfield,Vallejo,Stockton,Lodi,Antioch in California.Does anyone know of any well respected schools in my area I should check out?Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about Kajukenbo other than what each part of the word stands for, however Hapkido may offer you much of what you're looking for as well.

Hello, You better sign-up! You will have no regrets. Our Professor came from Kajukenbo( His instructor did some wrong things), So he left to start Universal Kempo-Karate. Many of the things we do (including the prayer) are almost the same. Our fighting styles are the same, like Kajukenbo, it includes ground work,grapping,stand-up,close-in fighting, we got Katas,sparring, almost everything you need.

Please visit a few schools and compare with others too! The training can be tough and you will learn many things about fighting.

If you ask who would I not want to face between, Karate man, Tae Kon do, or Kajukenbo man? From my experience, I would not want to fight a Kajukenbo man! We train like them! .....Aloha (not all school/teachers are the same)

Check the local phone book and speak with each instructor. The style/system should not be as important in the beginning.

Something interesting I have read on styles/systems:

http://www.spiritualminds.com/articles.asp?articleid=1888

Though I've not taken Kajukenbo specifically, I've heard great thinks about the curriculum and it does combine all the arts that would comprise a complete system. Check out all the schools and find the instructor you "click" with best. Best of luck.

I was a blue belt in kajukenbo before I moved and took up kenpo, in my opinion it is a very good art. Kaju has a rep for producing tough fighters and is excellent in the self-defense arena. Kaju can be highly variable about its structure and focus depending on your instructor and what branch of the art it hails from. I totally agree on the advice from all the earlier posters to check in to see which instructors seems to work for you. Also see the newbies guide to selecting a school (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=698)

A good list of kaju schools can be found here (http://www.kajukenbo.org/schools/).

Good luck in your search for a school.

Lamont

I tried KajuKenbo and liked it, I joined again years later under a different instructor and was completely turned off to it. My advice is to check it out and see what you find.
Sean

Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself. What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?
I live 30 minutes from Fairfield,Vallejo,Stockton,Lodi,Antioch in California.
Does anyone know of any well respected schools in my area I should check out? Any info will be greatly appreciated.
Like any martial art.... it all depends on the instructor. Kajukenbo has some exceptional individuals from the top down. Sijo Emperado, Gary Forbach, Al Dacascos, Eric Lee, John Bishop ... and hundreds I have not mentioned.

To find out more in depth info on instructors in your area I suggest you contact John Bishop for guidance here on martial talk (he is listed in the members list) or his website : http://www.kajukenboinfo.com

:asian:

It is a very good style. One of my senior students has BB rank in Kajukenbo and he has only great things to say about the style. I myself have competed against some Kajukenbo BB's and have always been impressed. They have my respect, for what its worth. You will find the style very adaptable to yours and your son's martial needs.

If you can't say anything good about something, don't say anything at all. Therefore...

If you can't say anything good about something, don't say anything at all. Therefore...By all means lets hear it. I feel as if it has too much kicking, what don't you like about it? This should be good.
Sean

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent:)

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent:)Perhaps as a TKD stylist, you would be best to avoid any battle:ultracool :) . Had to throw a stinger out

I don't know, I've practiced with Tae Kwon Do students who didn't care about tournaments and who had some of the strongest technique I've ever seen. Could literally fold a sandbag in half.

Nice sense of humor though:asian:

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent:)You see thats just it, we wouldn't be in battle because I don't study Kajukenbo; so, I wouldn't be taxing your wits this time. Now relax and spill it, you want to answer wouldn't have posted anything to begin with. :flame:
Sean

I don't know, I've practiced with Tae Kwon Do students who didn't care about tournaments and who had some of the strongest technique I've ever seen. Could literally fold a sandbag in half.

Nice sense of humor though:asian:Is bag folding TKD exclusive?

No, but just in case you think that Tae Kwon Do is strictly a tournament style with no power, I practiced with guys that demonstrate otherwise. And just in case you think Tae Kwon Do has no self defense application, I've practiced with guys who've shown otherwise. And my Instructor grew up in a time in Korea where he had to use TKD to defend himself against thugs. So KJKB does not have the market on "realistic" self defense.

yes, I too have heard talk of these
http://www.evans-world.20m.com/custom.html, probably not him tho'

I love it!! Too bad there are no instructors here in Houston that are teaching it.:mad:

I like it because Judo is incorporated into the style and is a section on your belt test starting at Blue Belt. It is very fun and I love some of the techniques that the system requires.

No, but just in case you think that Tae Kwon Do is strictly a tournament style with no power, I practiced with guys that demonstrate otherwise. And just in case you think Tae Kwon Do has no self defense application, I've practiced with guys who've shown otherwise. And my Instructor grew up in a time in Korea where he had to use TKD to defend himself against thugs. So KJKB does not have the market on "realistic" self defense.I wasn't dissing TKD, I was asking about Kaju and what bothers you about it. Is the fact that its an Hawaiian mix bother you? Is it the grappling? The hand basics? You can't dislike the luftkicking stuff.
Sean

So KJKB does not have the market on "realistic" self defense.
I am sorry, but I must beg to differ. I have seen a lot of the techniques and have seen some people use it in a "realistic" situation. One of my classmates and I were approached by some guys who wanted to start some trouble because of the color shirt he had on. Sure, we tried to talk our way out but they pushed us from behind and luckily for us, that is where a good portion of our techniques came from. We have Judo rolls 1-22. So, it was like if we were in the dojo, but this was for real.

I am sorry, but I must beg to differ. I have seen a lot of the techniques and have seen some people use it in a "realistic" situation. One of my classmates and I were approached by some guys who wanted to start some trouble because of the color shirt he had on. Sure, we tried to talk our way out but they pushed us from behind and luckily for us, that is where a good portion of our techniques came from. We have Judo rolls 1-22. So, it was like if we were in the dojo, but this was for real.In MTKD's defense, he was trying to say KJKB is not the only realistic form of self defense out there.
Sean

from past readings and discussions it is interesting though there isnt a school for it locally.

One of the problems I have with KJKB: If it is a system designed strictly for self defense, why even have uniforms and ranks? If all you care about is self defense, rank is not important and uniforms are not necessary. What is the point of having, say, a 7th Dan in a style that is strictly for self defense? Or wearing a karate gi for that matter?

In MTKD's defense, he was trying to say KJKB is not the only realistic form of self defense out there.

Ah, ok. Misinterpreted the post. Sorry!:)

One of the problems I have with KJKB: If it is a system designed strictly for self defense, why even have uniforms and ranks? If all you care about is self defense, rank is not important and uniforms are not necessary. What is the point of having, say, a 7th Dan in a style that is strictly for self defense? Or wearing a karate gi for that matter?
KaJuKenBo, similiar to all Kenpo branch, view Self defense to be the study of martial arts. Artistic elemenents, character devolpment or historical preservation are all secondary elements.

One of the problems I have with KJKB: If it is a system designed strictly for self defense, why even have uniforms and ranks? If all you care about is self defense, rank is not important and uniforms are not necessary. What is the point of having, say, a 7th Dan in a style that is strictly for self defense? Or wearing a karate gi for that matter?

How is it any less of an art just because that is the main focus? All arts are unique in their own way, shape and form. Pretty much everywhere you look, you'll find that the majority of arts all have some sort of ranking system, be it a belt, sash, or a level designating rank.

Sure their focus is on SD, but whats to say that they don't spar? There are still kata. Now the way the sparring is done may be quite different from TKD lets say, but again, it does not make it any less of an art.

Mike

One of the problems I have with KJKB: If it is a system designed strictly for self defense, why even have uniforms and ranks? If all you care about is self defense, rank is not important and uniforms are not necessary. What is the point of having, say, a 7th Dan in a style that is strictly for self defense? Or wearing a karate gi for that matter?
That is a good point

I had a real interesting Kajukenbo experience. About a year ago I met a couple at a chinese martial art demonstration. They were new in town. They were looking to start up a Kajukenbo school. I didn't ask them too many questions about it because I thought I knew what Kajukenbo was.

I've got to stop assuming things! :uhyeah:

They did open a place up so I went to watch a class.
They teach an official version of Kajukenbo called NorthernTum Pai. It is a Kajukenbo version with Tai Chi Chuan as a kind of basis for everything they do!
I had no idea this existed within the Kajukenbo organization.

I had always known there were four branches of it:

Kajukenbo Kenpo, Chuan Fa (which is the correct term for CMA-not Kung fu), Wun Hop Kuuen Do and Tum Pai.

I am somewhat of a martial art history/scholar nut. Upon my first interpretation of this thread, I thought it was about Jukendo...

Sometimes my dyslexia gets the best of me.

It says alot about Grand Master Emperado. He foresaw the inevitable future development of the art and guided it in appropriate directions, all while maintaining the core teachings.

Awesome.

I guess the ranking issue is for setting their standards...

How is it any less of an art just because that is the main focus? All arts are unique in their own way, shape and form. Pretty much everywhere you look, you'll find that the majority of arts all have some sort of ranking system, be it a belt, sash, or a level designating rank.

Sure their focus is on SD, but whats to say that they don't spar? There are still kata. Now the way the sparring is done may be quite different from TKD lets say, but again, it does not make it any less of an art.

Mike
But that is my point. Arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate-do, Aikido etc. were designed as an overall program of physical, mental, and spiritual improvement. As such, each aspect of the art (forms, sparring, self defense etc.) were just that-aspects. Sparring or whatever is not the total package. And because these arts are grounded in tradition, either from the native country or imported by its influences, things like uniform, behavior, etiquette, and manners are spelled out. Remember, these are Ways of Life in how to better yourself.
KJKB is primarily for self defense, and has been for Day One. Either you or someone else said it yourself. Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing. I also have a problem with that BTW. But if all you care about is self defense, if culture, etiquette, and tradition mean nothing, then you don't need rank or uniforms because all you are teaching is self defense techniques. Why do you think Jeet Kune Do doesn't use uniforms?
My opinion? KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance.

But that is my point. Arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate-do, Aikido etc. were designed as an overall program of physical, mental, and spiritual improvement. As such, each aspect of the art (forms, sparring, self defense etc.) were just that-aspects. Sparring or whatever is not the total package. And because these arts are grounded in tradition, either from the native country or imported by its influences, things like uniform, behavior, etiquette, and manners are spelled out. Remember, these are Ways of Life in how to better yourself.
KJKB is primarily for self defense, and has been for Day One. Either you or someone else said it yourself. Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing. I also have a problem with that BTW. But if all you care about is self defense, if culture, etiquette, and tradition mean nothing, then you don't need rank or uniforms because all you are teaching is self defense techniques. Why do you think Jeet Kune Do doesn't use uniforms?
My opinion? KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance.

I've seen many people, myself included, have one sided views of TKD. i've asked questions, and at times have received answers and at times I have not. I've had people say, don't judge it until you've tried it, don't judge all TKD just from a few things that you've seen. Well, this is exactly what is happening here. Now, I may be wrong, but have you looked really in depth at Kajukenbo? If you have, then I can see reason for your reply. If you have not, then this discussion is no different than the TKD discussions that have been on this forum.

One thing to keep in mind here, is that all arts have a focus. There will always be a strong focus on one main thing, and then touch on others. Look at BJJ. Its strong point is the ground obviously, but they also touch on punching and kicking. Not as much as the ground, but it is there. TKDs main focus is kicking, is it not? You really don't see much punching during sparring, but supposedly those hand strikes are there, are they not?

As for it not being suited for kids...who was talking about that? I believe the question asked was, "What do you think about Kajukenbo?" not, "What do you think about Kajukenbo for kids?" That is one of the reasons I always tell people when they're looking to join a school, to research it first, ask questions, watch classes, take a trial class, etc., so that nothing will be a surprise.

Mike

As for it not being suited for kids...who was talking about that? I believe the question asked was, "What do you think about Kajukenbo?" not, "What do you think about Kajukenbo for kids?" That is one of the reasons I always tell people when they're looking to join a school, to research it first, ask questions, watch classes, take a trial class, etc., so that nothing will be a surprise.

Mike

Sorry about that. Upon re-reading the first post, he did make an inquiry about his son. However, I would still think that elements of respect, discipline, etc., are incorporated into the classes.

Mike

But that is my point. Arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate-do, Aikido etc. were designed as an overall program of physical, mental, and spiritual improvement. As such, each aspect of the art (forms, sparring, self defense etc.) were just that-aspects. Sparring or whatever is not the total package. And because these arts are grounded in tradition, either from the native country or imported by its influences, things like uniform, behavior, etiquette, and manners are spelled out. Remember, these are Ways of Life in how to better yourself.
KJKB is primarily for self defense, and has been for Day One. Either you or someone else said it yourself. Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing. I also have a problem with that BTW. But if all you care about is self defense, if culture, etiquette, and tradition mean nothing, then you don't need rank or uniforms because all you are teaching is self defense techniques. Why do you think Jeet Kune Do doesn't use uniforms?
My opinion? KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance.Thank you for your answer, you bring up some valid concerns. I think it is safe to say you believe TKD offers something that A system like Kenpo or KJKB does not. Perhaps you are right; we all choose different spiritual paths, and for you to truely believe in yours, it would only stand to reason you feel bad for "us". Anywhoo, the Flaw in your thinking is that KJKB should try to adhere to a Bruce Lee belief or custom. Bruce probably means about as much to them as he does to you; so, they will judge skill levels and award grade levels as usual. They get their spiritual fix by going to church and helping others learn to acheive their goals.
Sean

Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself.I want to take something that is very diverse.I understand what works in actual street fights and am looking for a style that incorperates striking but also doesnt forget the importance of grappling.Something that is a complete art.What martial art exists that is actually practical for street fighting/defense.Which teaches all aspects together?There are many Kajukenbo schools in my area.What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?
Sounds like you're looking for an art such as Kajukenbo...

I hope Mr. Bishop weighs in on this (the self-improvement and "art" issues MichiganTKD brings up) - as I am not a practioner of that art. However I have been impressed with what little I've seen from the art. I had to take boxing and Judo classes to supplement my Karate training because it was demonstrably incomplete as I was initially taught it. However, Kajukenbo, by definition, covers both grappling and infighting as well as traditional Karate style techniques. Sounds good to me. Would have saved me a lot of time and money to have gotten mixed training from the same location.

Actually, I agree TKD so a perfect art to teach kids. Can't hurt each other with it and they expend thier energy!

Actually, I agree TKD so a perfect art to teach kids. Can't hurt each other with it and they expend thier energy!HAHA HA HA! :flame:
Sean

KJKB is primarily for self defense, and has been for Day One. Either you or someone else said it yourself. Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing.

Atlhough I don't have as much experience as other kajukenboists, for example Mr. Bishop, I would disagree with your claim that tradition, etiquette, manners and uniform mean nothing in kajukenbo. Simply because the art was originally developed for self defense does not mean that other aspects of the martial arts (such as those that you list here) are not part of many school's curriculum today.

Although kaju tradition may not have as long a history as other arts, at our dojo, we are expected to begin class with a traditional prayer and salute. With respect to etiquette and manners, we are required to shake hands with every person in the dojo every time we come to class. We are required to introduce ourselves to anyone we have not met. Our uniforms must be clean and worn in a specific way.

We are drilled on respect, self control, integrity, in addition to our physical training. We must keep a notebook of all our techniques that is reviewed upon testing for BB. Your blanket statement, above, does not take into account the different styles and different schools that all teach kajukenbo.

I've only been training for three years but in that time I have not only improved physically but mentally as well.

KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance.

I came to train in kajukenbo, with absolutely no martial arts experience ever, after my son had been taking children's classes for a year. My son's instructor instills in the younger students self confidence, teaches them how to interact respectfully with others, rewards them for good report cards brought in from school, implements consequences (taking belt away, writing "Student Creed #1" 50 times) for bad behavior. You cannot expect young children to perform the curriculum with the intensity that the adults do. Children's classes should be well rounded and I believe this is the case at the school where my son and I train. Our main instructor is not only a naturally gifted teacher, but someone who sets an example for every student every day with his skill, his great attitude, and his integrity.

You don't say what you mean by "substance," but I wouldn't have my 9-year old son training anywhere else.

Like Kaju Mon said there is all the aspects of the Martial Arts in KajuKenbo/Kenpo arts. Were'nt all arts originally designed for self defense?

Kajukenpo/Kenpo is a throw back to the jutsu arts. Please look at the difference between Judo and JuJuitsu, Aikido and AikiJutsu. The Okinwan art of Karate jutsu is more of a fighting art thatn the Karate Do idea of the japanese(Which put perfection of character first). TKD has its roots in KarateDo, not Karate Jutsu.
All strike based systems do 80 percent the same thing, the emphasis is different. When you drive a car do you pick the best looking car or the one that works the best?

I'm glad to see that a few posters have tried to get this back to the original question of the thread.
For those that study Kajukenbo, please tell us of the nebifits of this art for the original poster. Also if you feel their might be a negitive please also tell us of that .
This thread is about Kajukenbo please keep it to that

I agree. I also already gave my input on Kajukenbo.

Great post KajuMom. And accurate from my observations over the past 3 or 4 decades.

-Michael

I'm a hung ga person that used to practice the jutsu arts. In my 38 years of training, sparring and fighting my toughest opponents have been kajukenbo folks, then kempo, then tang soo do ect. so on and so on I have nothing but respect for kajukenbo. Had I not had years of training in gong fu and ju jutsu I may have chosen it for myself.

When you drive a car do you pick the best looking car or the one that works the best? Some people like flashy expensive cars, and some people like inexpensive practical cars. There is no right or wrong in that so long as it suits you and gets you to where you want to go. :asian: I think it's important to remember that we should choose an art/school that suits us as individuals. We all have opinions based on our different experiences, we are lucky to have so many great choices, but ultimately if you are comfortable in the school, and with the teacher and with what is being taught than your journey will be a good one. :)

MJ :)

What I mean by "substance" is this:

Practicing a style that teaches techniques purely for self defense (in other words no concern for tradition, manners, etiquette, respect, and culture) is akin to learning how to use a gun without learning respect for human life, understanding what a gun is capable of, why you should not use it unless absolutely necessary. You are learning a powerful weapon, but with great power comes great responsibility. If you teach the use of the weapon, you have an obligation to teach that responsibility.

Now the point could be made "well that is the parents' job", and to a certain extent you'd be right. Ideally that's the way it works. Ideally. Parents are hung up on sex ed. What makes you think they can teach issues equally as important? Too many parents pass the buck because they cannot or choose not to accept this responsibility.

If you are teaching use of a weapon, whether it is the sword, gun, or human body, you have an ethical and moral obligation to teach the responsibilities and obligations that go with learning that weapon. Traditional martial arts (especially those ending in DO) teach this obligation. KJKB does not concern itself with these deeper issues. It is concerned only with self defense. That, to me, is a lack of substance. The fact that it contains effective self defense and technique is irrelevant. Someone who is a master gunfighter with no code of ethical and moral conduct is still a thug.

KaJu has traditions, ettiquette, respect and etc.. Some are westerized (the KaJuKenpo Prayer), some are hawaiinian, some are from the older parent systems.

AQagian if you are gonna fight, fight to win. Not fight to look good, or to make your teacher proud.Fight to go home. Do not fight out of benevolence for the other person, but fear for your own well being.
training can be modern and at the same time have substance. Why is it thought the only deep arts are ones were you can't speak the language??

KJKB does not concern itself with these deeper issues. It is concerned only with self defense. That, to me, is a lack of substance.

Didn't we used to have a "head slamming into wall" smiley?

Obviously our experiences with Kajukenbo differ, I found my training to cover those areas which you say it lacks. Have you actually ever trained in kaju, or are you speaking from an outsiders perspective?

Lamont

Please stick to the topic. If you want to continue a debate about the history or traditions of Kaju, please start another thread and do not contaminate this one with this conflict.

-Michael Billings-
--MT Super Moderator--

Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself.I want to take something that is very diverse.I understand what works in actual street fights and am looking for a style that incorperates striking but also doesnt forget the importance of grappling.Something that is a complete art.What martial art exists that is actually practical for street fighting/defense.Which teaches all aspects together?There are many Kajukenbo schools in my area.What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?I live 30 minutes from Fairfield,Vallejo,Stockton,Lodi,Antioch in California.Does anyone know of any well respected schools in my area I should check out?Any info will be greatly appreciated.
I've avoided commenting on this question, since I would obviously be biased in my opinion. And, I've also been out of town for the last 7 days.
But there appears to be misunderstandings concerning Kajukenbo's place as a "traditional martial art".
We consider Kajukenbo to be the first American Martial Art, founded in the American Territory of Hawaii in 1947.
We consider it to be a "traditional martial art", in that the philosophy of Kajukenbo follows the Asian martial arts philosopies of training for the purpose of perfecting the practitioners body, mind, and spirit. We stress Asian traditions in our class structure; uniforms, earning belt ranks, and showing honor and respect to all practitioners and seniors. We also follow the Hawaiian tradition of "Ohana", in that all Kajukenbo practitioners, no matter what branch, association, affliation, etc., are family, and the head of that family is Sijo Emperado.
As to the techniques of Kajukenbo, I can only speak for the "Original Method". It is a mixed martial art which adds techniques from judo, jujitsu, kung fu, tang soo do, escrima, and western boxing, to the base art of Kara-ho Kenpo. It was designed to meet the self defense needs of the time, long after swords, spears, and armor disapeared. Hence the absence of weapons training.
Obviously no one can create a perfect martial art that has a answer for every self defense scenerio, but the Kajukenbo founders tried. They knew that to only be able to punch and kick, or only grapple and throw, etc., left weaknesses in your defenses. They were right then, and they are still right today. Everyone who wants to be more versatile in their defense abilities either cross trains, or looks for a system that is diverse in it's training. And Kajukenbo is a diverse system where techniques flow from blocking, striking, kicking, throwing, locking, and grappling. Whatever is needed to defend against the attack.
Now a system is only as good as it's instructors, and the effort the student puts into his/her training. In your area (San Francisco Bay area of California) are some of the best instructors in the whole Kajukenbo system. So visit their schools and pick one. I would suggest you visit Emil Bautista's, Alan Reyes's, and David Amiccucci's schools first.
I know it may appear off topic to discuss whether Kajukenbo is a "traditional art" or not, but I think in selecting any school you need to look at everything about the school/system. Is it traditional, non-traditional, sport oriented, self defense oriented, family oriented, business oriented, etc, etc.? These and many other factors are all things to be considered in selecting a school/system. The reasons for training are differant for everyone, so look at the whole picture before you decide what suits you.

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art. It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.
Second, by taking the "best techniques" from different systems, you are essentially saying "None of these by themselves are good enough. We will take what we think are the best techniques and put them together into one system" .
I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

I'd be interested to hear what Anton Giessink or Jimmy Pedro thought about judo not being effective.

I'd like to hear what the Kenpo people think about their style not being effective enough by itself.

Ali, Frazier, de la Hoya, and Foreman sure showed how ineffective boxing is, didn't they?

I agree with the quote from Glad2beHere: If you want my art's techniques, you study my art warts and all.

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art. It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.
Second, by taking the "best techniques" from different systems, you are essentially saying "None of these by themselves are good enough. We will take what we think are the best techniques and put them together into one system" .
I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

I'd be interested to hear what Anton Giessink or Jimmy Pedro thought about judo not being effective.

I'd like to hear what the Kenpo people think about their style not being effective enough by itself.

Ali, Frazier, de la Hoya, and Foreman sure showed how ineffective boxing is, didn't they?

I agree with the quote from Glad2beHere: If you want my art's techniques, you study my art warts and all.
Everyone is welcomed to their own opinions. To compare sports with self defense systems is like comparing apples to oranges.
And to assume that you have to have been a Asian master to develop a effective martial art is also a incorrect asumption.

Oh by the way, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do came from Shotokan, so is it wrong to call them Korean systems?
And also, the founders you listed all studied more then one system, and combined techniques from them into their own arts.
But that's another topic, so we'll leave that for future discussions.

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art.

Soooooooo then the founder of "Shotokan" (G.F.) can't really call it a Japanese martial art then since he took the base material from Okinawa, right?


It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.

If that's where it started and formulated..... then it very well Could Be! Just look back at all the history of other systems and tell me the difference.


I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

Yes, I would too..... they probably would say.... "shush up"....... before we get exposed for doing the same thing!!


I agree with the quote from Glad2beHere: If you want my art's techniques, you study my art warts and all.

Me too:)

Everyone is welcomed to their own opinions. To compare sports with self defense systems is like comparing apples to oranges.
And to assume that you have to have been a Asian master to develop a effective martial art is also a incorrect asumption.I had that same debate when I was young with my father. After he accepted me practcing martial arts(he didnt like thiongs foreign-cultured and it was pushed by my mother), one of my instrcutors was a black man. Woe, that was far worse for him to handle as he sterotyped Asians as the ones whom were better at it and could only teach it.

Oh by the way, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do came from Shotokan, so is it wrong to call them Korean systems? And also, the founders you listed all studied more then one system, and combined techniques from them into their own arts. If it was taken from somewhere and practiced by a new culture or country, I guess you can name it per that header. Like Russian Judo-example. The problem I see in the US, is that cultures want to relate to their origin (not birthplace) first then their citizenship. For examples; Irish-Amercians, African-Amercians, Latin-Americans, etc.

Actually, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do did NOT come from Shotokan, in the sense that they are sub-arts of Shotokan. There is a Shotokan influence in each, but Tae Kwon Do is not Korean Shotokan. Never has been. But that is a different thread.
Also, Tae Kwon Do was not founded by masters saying "we're going to take techniques from Tae Kyun, Shotokan, kung fu, and whatever else." Each master had their own background that they drew upon, but it was not a conscious decision to blend styles, unlike Kajukenbo. Each Kwan, with their favored techniques, had already distinguished itself. The KTA was formed by the top 9 Kwans. Each had slight differences in technique and philosophy, but nothing radically different.
Does TKD have various influences? Sure, but it is the result of natural evolution, not trying to combine 4-5 different arts to get the best of all worlds. Works with animals, not so well with people.

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art. It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.Why not? Other countries had taken American ideas on other subjects and call it their own. An American Martial Art is one created and/or practice by Americans. Other Asian countries took from other countries and call methods their own. China took from India. Okinawa took from China. Japan took from Okinawa and China. Korea took from China and Japan. Martial arts have been a huge melting pot and one can call a martial art in accordance to the founder or location of a style's created birth place.


Second, by taking the "best techniques" from different systems, you are essentially saying "None of these by themselves are good enough. We will take what we think are the best techniques and put them together into one system" . I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.These masters, themselves taken other arts that they had studied and combine such to their own design and style.

I'd be interested to hear what Anton Giessink or Jimmy Pedro thought about judo not being effective.

I'd like to hear what the Kenpo people think about their style not being effective enough by itself.

Ali, Frazier, de la Hoya, and Foreman sure showed how ineffective boxing is, didn't they? I dont think the point of combining arts to form another is out of disrepect or to demonstrate how ineffective those were. But things have to envolve per a given need.

Nice posting John Bishop, you have cleared up many things that I had not realized about Kajukenbo. I only wish there was a instructor near me.

Actually, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do did NOT come from Shotokan, in the sense that they are sub-arts of Shotokan. There is a Shotokan influence in each, but Tae Kwon Do is not Korean Shotokan. Never has been. But that is a different thread.
Also, Tae Kwon Do was not founded by masters saying "we're going to take techniques from Tae Kyun, Shotokan, kung fu, and whatever else." Each master had their own background that they drew upon, but it was not a conscious decision to blend styles, unlike Kajukenbo. Each Kwan, with their favored techniques, had already distinguished itself. The KTA was formed by the top 9 Kwans. Each had slight differences in technique and philosophy, but nothing radically different.
Does TKD have various influences? Sure, but it is the result of natural evolution, not trying to combine 4-5 different arts to get the best of all worlds. Works with animals, not so well with people.
This is not accurate in the least. Read the multi part article about TKD in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine for your true history on this art.

Funikoshi blended Naha-Te, Shuri-Te and Kodokan Judo in order to make Shotokan. Perhaps he thought that no one was effective enough by itself?

Oyama also mixed various styles of Karate and added Judo in order to make Kyokushinkai.

Also, If you think that mixing techniques from various styles is not a good idea, take a look at the UFC etc. No one gets by on one style alone anymore. If you're not versed in multiple ranges, you're dead. When, for instance, did a TKD guy ever win one of those tournements?

Man, if you buy that line about TKD or TSD not coming from Shotokan, it should be easy to get you to believe anything

Classical Fighting Arts Magazine is a magazine dedicated to Japanese styles. Not to say it is a rag, because it is not. However, their attitude toward Tae Kwon Do is slightly above contemptuous. In their mind, TKD is nothing more than Korean Shotokan.
However, I stand behind my opinion that Tae Kwon Do is not, and was never, merely Korean Shotokan. Even starting with obvious Japanese influences, its Grandmasters made a conscious choice to have Tae Kwon Do establish its own identity.
But again, the coming together of the various Kwans and Masters was largely "encouraged" by the Korean gov't which wanted to see a unified art rather than a fragmented style. If you didn't join, you lost your Dan recognition. It was not brought about to pick and choose the best techniques of various styles. That is one of the main differences.

Actually, I agree TKD so a perfect art to teach kids. Can't hurt each other with it and they expend thier energy!
That must be "the substance" that he said TKD had and Kajukenbo lacked. :uhyeah:

Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself.I want to take something that is very diverse.I understand what works in actual street fights and am looking for a style that incorperates striking but also doesnt forget the importance of grappling.Something that is a complete art.What martial art exists that is actually practical for street fighting/defense.Which teaches all aspects together?There are many Kajukenbo schools in my area.What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?I live 30 minutes from Fairfield,Vallejo,Stockton,Lodi,Antioch in California.Does anyone know of any well respected schools in my area I should check out?Any info will be greatly appreciated.
Take Mr. Bishops advice! Also Fairfield and Vallejo have a long history with Kajukenbo, you should try there first.

No, but just in case you think that Tae Kwon Do is strictly a tournament style with no power, I practiced with guys that demonstrate otherwise. And just in case you think Tae Kwon Do has no self defense application, I've practiced with guys who've shown otherwise. And my Instructor grew up in a time in Korea where he had to use TKD to defend himself against thugs. So KJKB does not have the market on "realistic" self defense.
Oh really. Which style is most often referred to as "street tough?" And which style is most often referred to as a " mc' dojo day care center?" :uhyeah:

I'm not puuting your style down. There must be some good martial artist in it somewhere but to promote it as superior to Kaju is absurd. :uhyeah:

I don't know, I've practiced with Tae Kwon Do students who didn't care about tournaments and who had some of the strongest technique I've ever seen. Could literally fold a sandbag in half.

:
Again, your talking about a minority in your art and not the majority.

Classical Fighting Arts Magazine is a magazine dedicated to Japanese styles. Not to say it is a rag, because it is not. However, their attitude toward Tae Kwon Do is slightly above contemptuous. In their mind, TKD is nothing more than Korean Shotokan.
However, I stand behind my opinion that Tae Kwon Do is not, and was never, merely Korean Shotokan. Even starting with obvious Japanese influences, its Grandmasters made a conscious choice to have Tae Kwon Do establish its own identity.
But again, the coming together of the various Kwans and Masters was largely "encouraged" by the Korean gov't which wanted to see a unified art rather than a fragmented style. If you didn't join, you lost your Dan recognition. It was not brought about to pick and choose the best techniques of various styles. That is one of the main differences.
So you think that an art that unified for political reason, rather than for effency reasons is a superior art?

Not superior, but not a martial art that was the result of cherry picking either.

, but not a martial art that was the result of cherry picking either.
Care to explain?

So they merged the Kwans and said "hey lets keep every ineffecient, useless and anarchnistic technique in the system"

What's wrong with "cherry picking"? As someone who eats the fruit, I want the ripest cherries I can get. "Cherry Picking" means taking the best and discarding the rest. So unless you have some affinity for rotten fruit, why is this a bad idea?




"Michigan", lets summarize your discussion points:


-KJKB is not the only style that focuses on self-defense.
yes, everone agrees on that. Nobody ever claimed it was.

Styles that focus on SD should not use uniforms or ranks.
-this is your opinion. I think the consensus is that use of ranking systems can be either well used or abused. They can at best be used to foster discipline and order, and this is part of the substance you say KJKB lacks.. which is it?

-You state that in KJKB "Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing" and then go on to say that this is a weakness (or hypocrisy) in KJKB.
Since you do not train KJKB, you are not qualified to say how important any given aspect of KJKB is to the style. the KJKB people deny that this is an accutrate description, and that these things are important to them.

-KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance. You later define "substance" as teaching responsibility for the knowledge, with no moral code.
Again, you are not in a position to evaluate the amount of "substance" there is in KJKB. The people who do train it say that it does teach these things.

-It's not an American Art
debatable, by definitions mostly, and very irrelevant.

-Japanese and Okinawan masters of the last century were so amazingly good that their styles could not possibly have had a mix of "cherries" and "pits", so the "cherry picking" of KJKB is questionable.
I think we could all agree that the performance of one person is in no way a measure of the quality of a style or art, good or bad. So your point here (that the arts from which KJKB drew were too good to be cherry picked) is not only nonsense, but you simply failed to establish it as factual, logically, by basing it on the premise that one good practitioner defines the quality of the entire art. And, it was stated by some that infact the old guys you mentioned in fact did the same type of cherry-picking to create their arts, anyway.

- you contend that "Natural Evolution" of a style is better than the conscious effort put forth by the founders of KJKB. But then later you back-peddle on the position that this is superior to cherry-picking, so I guess this point is not at all relevant.
And it may or may not be true. This might be an interesting thread by itself. However the example you gave of "Natural Evolution" was, the gov't of Korea black-mailing various TKD organization into working together. if that is "natural evolution" then I don't think you will be able to prove it is any of "better", "natural", or "evolution".


Sooooo, where does that leave you in your argument? Your footing is shakier than Ken Samrock's LOL.

You say it has no moral substance, but practicioners demonstrate it does.
You draw a destinction betwen "evolution" and "cherry picking", with "evolution" assumed to be superior... but then quickly back-peddle and admit "natural evolution" (under whatever impulse) is NOT SUPERIOR to cherry picking.

so now, please re-state, what is it that makes KJKB so weak in your eyes? Or just admit that you have only a vague emotional reaction not based in fact or experience. that's OK! We all have those. They are only bad when you try to pretend (or even delude yourself) that it is not what it is, by flailing around for facts and arguments to support what is basically a logically unsupportable reaction based in emotions..

Once you realize that you can start to figure out where that emotional reaction comes from... and maybe resolve some lingering negativity :D Good Luck!


-David

Also, If you think that mixing techniques from various styles is not a good idea, take a look at the UFC etc. No one gets by on one style alone anymore. If you're not versed in multiple ranges, you're dead. When, for instance, did a TKD guy ever win one of those tournements?
How true...they did the same in many past eras anyway :asian:

-You state that in KJKB "Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing" and then go on to say that this is a weakness (or hypocrisy) in KJKB.
Since you do not train KJKB, you are not qualified to say how important any given aspect of KJKB is to the style. the KJKB people deny that this is an accutrate description, and that these things are important to them.

-KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance. You later define "substance" as teaching responsibility for the knowledge, with no moral code.
Again, you are not in a position to evaluate the amount of "substance" there is in KJKB. The people who do train it say that it does teach these things.
-DavidExactly! Whoever said that training in self-defence and character development were mutually exclusive? Where did MichiganTKD get this idea?

MichiganTKD, I too have met some AWESOME TKD stylists and more than a few crappy "reality stylists". However, KJB is nearly as old an art as TKD and TSD. The internal combustion engine predates both systems - if not the techniques in those systems.

BTW, I have studied both traditional Korean MA (TKD and TSD) and Shotokan. The forms were not only similiar - in some cases they were IDENTICAL. Why TKD's roots need to be modified is beyond me. The history of TKD is the history of all MA - influence, assimilation, and the development of a unique identity. I can imagine why many Koreans, particularly older ones, given the brutal occupation of their country by the Japanese (1905-1945), wish to minimize the origin of their national MA; however, WW2 is long over and most on this board are Westerners. We can look at this history objectively, can't we?

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles. Now, perhaps you could argue that since Tae Kwon Do was developed out of 9 Kwans in Korea, there is no difference. But there are difference, particularly in approach.

First, Tae Kwon Do was formed to unify the Kwans, as opposed to picking and choosing technique (cherry picking). This was by order of the Korean gov't.

Second, leaders of Tae Kwon Do purposely gave TKD a set of cultural and moral principles, manners, and etiquette. It is a DO art after all. The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense. Like learning how to use a gun with the awesome responsibility that comes with it.

Third, Tae Kwon Do was designed to give pride back to a nation that had been stripped of it. As such, it was developed into an awesome fighting art that Koreans, and later others from outside Korea, could be proud to say they practiced.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society. Won Kuk Lee specificially taught only those who would be model citizens.

Having an opening prayer, while admirable, is not the same thing as encouraging honor, integrity, and social pride.

First off there is a strong connection between TKD and Shotokan, so unifying the 9 kwans techniques was probably not all that diverse, Since the TKD guys were basically doing Shotkan. Call it unifying or cherry picking whatever, ion both cases you have a mass of info that you cut down to a resonable amount. You can keep the effective techniques or not.
Wheather you like it or not the same tenets are being espoused in a KJKB School, sometimes not as vocal. Not caring about ettiquette and acting out foriegn, half understood rituals are 2 seperate things.
Having pride in mother korea is not real big on my list
Every Martial art encourages right behavior, there are some fine examples and some bad apples in all arts

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles. Now, perhaps you could argue that since Tae Kwon Do was developed out of 9 Kwans in Korea, there is no difference. But there are difference, particularly in approach.

First, Tae Kwon Do was formed to unify the Kwans, as opposed to picking and choosing technique (cherry picking). This was by order of the Korean gov't.

Second, leaders of Tae Kwon Do purposely gave TKD a set of cultural and moral principles, manners, and etiquette. It is a DO art after all. The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense. Like learning how to use a gun with the awesome responsibility that comes with it.

Third, Tae Kwon Do was designed to give pride back to a nation that had been stripped of it. As such, it was developed into an awesome fighting art that Koreans, and later others from outside Korea, could be proud to say they practiced.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society. Won Kuk Lee specificially taught only those who would be model citizens.

Having an opening prayer, while admirable, is not the same thing as encouraging honor, integrity, and social pride.
I really don't know what your personal problem is with Kajukenbo. I don't even know what your experience and exposure to it has been, for you to form such a strong opinion about what it is and what it isn't.
And if your going to argue about the good and bad points of Tae Kwon Do vs. Kajukenbo, then feel free to also discuss the bad points about Tae Kwon Do. Things like 9 year old black belts.
The McDojo's that cross rank anyone and everyone, or turn out black belts in 12 months.
Turning a martial art into nothing but a sport.
The corruption at the top, with some of it's leaders being prosecuted for embezzlement of Olympic training funds.
The strong possibility of Tae Kwon Do being removed from the Olympics, etc. etc.
Or you can just get back on topic, since nobody asked for a comparison of Kajukenbo to Tae Kwon Do.

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles. Now, perhaps you could argue that since Tae Kwon Do was developed out of 9 Kwans in Korea, there is no difference. But there are difference, particularly in approach.

First, Tae Kwon Do was formed to unify the Kwans, as opposed to picking and choosing technique (cherry picking). This was by order of the Korean gov't.

Second, leaders of Tae Kwon Do purposely gave TKD a set of cultural and moral principles, manners, and etiquette. It is a DO art after all. The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense. Like learning how to use a gun with the awesome responsibility that comes with it.

Third, Tae Kwon Do was designed to give pride back to a nation that had been stripped of it. As such, it was developed into an awesome fighting art that Koreans, and later others from outside Korea, could be proud to say they practiced.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society. Won Kuk Lee specificially taught only those who would be model citizens.

Having an opening prayer, while admirable, is not the same thing as encouraging honor, integrity, and social pride.

I must say, that your post is one of the most arrogant and ignorant I have seen on this forum.

"NHB" is a sport just like Olympic Tae Kwon Do. It is at least as much an indication of martial arts effectiveness as TKD competition. I would argue that MMA competition is more demanding than TKD competition and requires a higher level of training and dedication.

As to your first point, are you arguing that the Korean Gov't's political decision to unify the Kwans' similar arts--including everything good and bad-- produces a better martial art than KJKB founders street-savvy cherry-picked amalgamation of diverse arts? That is a tremendous demonstration of faith in the Korean Government and it's political processes.

As to your second point, KJKB people have ethics as well. Their leaders are not plagued by scandal like TKD leaders in Korea. The commercialization of TKD does not speak to well for the founders' lasting impact in establishing a "Do".

As to your third point, I agree, the main point of TKD is to build a false sense of confidence from those who have not explored lower-cost higher-reward alternatives.

As to your 4th point, you need to get out more. There are good and bad people in every walk of life--including TKD. A few empty pledges and dojang slumber parties are not evidence of TKD's moral superiority.

As to your final point, KJKB practitioners say the prayer as an affirmation that they are answerable to a hgiher authority for their actions. To whom are TKD people answerable? To their imprisoned leaders in Korea? The Korean Gov't who united the Kwan's? Or are TKD people really deeply in debt to the uniform suppliers who dye all those belts you guys get every 3 months?

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles.
That was where they started! Then they worked hard to unify those various fruits into one sweet cherry pie.

[QUOTE]
The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense.
[\QUOTE]

What is your source???? You continue to assert this but how do you know it?? People that practice Kajukenbo today say that you are wrong, their proof is that they do it.


[QUOTE]
Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society.
[\QUOTE]

"unlike KJKB"... what is your source?


Like I said before, you should examine yourself and see where this hostility comes from.

Personally I think TKD really only promotes the moral superioty of not asking questions of your estemmed korean leaders.

Look at how the Koreans have tried to rewrite the history of TKD, but most TKD practioners even those who stick around longer than the 18 months it took them to get thier Black belt swallow this tripe!!

Personally I think TKD really only promotes the moral superioty of not asking questions of your estemmed korean leaders.
Hmmmn, like a religious cult?

The thing I dislike is that US TKD schools display the Korean flag. I'm sorry, unless the practices are in a UN building, I don't see the need to display another nation's flag like this.

Then if this is the case, Kung Fu schools should display communist China's flag.

Or-

Brazil's Flag,

Indonesia Flag

Japan's Flag...

etc...

Actually it is common for a traditional school, whatever style, to display the flag of the country from which the art came out of respect. You are not deferring to another country, you are paying respect to where the art came from. If you refuse to display the flag of the country that originated your art, you are more narrowminded than I am. Japanese karate schools display the Japanese flag alongside the American flag. The home flag is to the left. It is a matter of respecting the country that gave you the art you practice.
I actually have a bigger problem with people that practice, say, a Korean martial art but will not display the Korean flag with the American flag than I do practicing something like Kajukenbo. If practicing KJKB makes you happy, have at it.

I've read this thread with much intrest. I'm glad to see we have someone who knows everything about TKD, and KJKB. You should have stopped by the HKD boards when they blew, could ahve used you. And as a fellow Taekata, you're making our art look REAL good right now.

Actually it is common for a traditional school, whatever style, to display the flag of the country from which the art came out of respect. You are not deferring to another country, you are paying respect to where the art came from. If you refuse to display the flag of the country that originated your art, you are more narrowminded than I am. Japanese karate schools display the Japanese flag alongside the American flag. The home flag is to the left. It is a matter of respecting the country that gave you the art you practice.
I actually have a bigger problem with people that practice, say, a Korean martial art but will not display the Korean flag with the American flag than I do practicing something like Kajukenbo. If practicing KJKB makes you happy, have at it.I agree that there is nothing wrong with displaying the Korean flag in TKD or TSD dojangs - or even that it is a necessary display of respect. My question remains, what problem do you have with KJKB? Sorry, guy, but it's as old as TKD and as therefore as "traditional". What is the problem with KJKB? In truth, despite my years in Korean MA, if I someone came to me and said that they had six months to prepare themselves for a life or death H2H struggle no Korean karate system would EVEN be on my list as a recommendation of arts to study - KJKB certainly would be if available. Also, as many have stated, training in self-defence and character development are NOT mutually exclusive - observe the tenor of your posts vs. Mr. Bishop's.

Actually it is common for a traditional school, whatever style, to display the flag of the country from which the art came out of respect. You are not deferring to another country, you are paying respect to where the art came from. If you refuse to display the flag of the country that originated your art, you are more narrowminded than I am. Japanese karate schools display the Japanese flag alongside the American flag. The home flag is to the left. It is a matter of respecting the country that gave you the art you practice.
I actually have a bigger problem with people that practice, say, a Korean martial art but will not display the Korean flag with the American flag than I do practicing something like Kajukenbo. If practicing KJKB makes you happy, have at it.Your premis is that martial artists should respect the country of origin, but is the martial arts school a a place to instill nationalism to a foriegn country? If your answer is yes I feel you should let parents know upfront that that is what you intent to do with their children. I fail to see what is lost by changing the terms to english, reciting a moral pledge, and getting on with training with discussion of possible ramifications. Thats it. Korea, China, and Japan are really nice places to visit but these kids wil someday be at war with, on behalf of, or because of one these countries, and if you would I would like to know what good comes from respecting country of origin by bowing to its flag for American children. Isn't learning the language and customs enough?
Sean

What nationalism?

It is simply respect to where the art came from. You are obviously one of those who disdain bowing as "one of them there Oriental customs we Westerners don't need to do." One of the precepts of traditional (there's that word again!) arts is respect-paying homage to those who came before you.
You know, in our Central Studio are many students, including the Instructor, who would be considered blue collar working class. They certainly would never consider ceding power or authority to a foreign nation. They have no problems bowing to the Korean flag in addition to the American flag. They understand they are only paying respect to Tae Kwon Do's home country, not pledging allegiance to Korea.
Aahhh, one of these days you will make some sense.

So the reason you don't like Kajukenbo, is that it fails to respect its proper countries of origin?

No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.

Anyway, my commenting on KJKB is as justified as a KJKB or judo student going to the Tae Kwon Do forum and responding. The question was "What do you think about KJKB?" I gave my answer. Nobody said you had to like it.

No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.

Anyway, my commenting on KJKB is as justified as a KJKB or judo student going to the Tae Kwon Do forum and responding. The question was "What do you think about KJKB?" I gave my answer. Nobody said you had to like it.

Oh, I understand now...you prefer TKD because nobody bothered to examine which techniques work and which don't and because it has techniques that don't inflict any pain...

No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.

I've been kicked by TKD guys. Although it wasn't a terrible pain, there was some pain inflicted:deadhorse

Trust me, I've been kicked by Tae Kwon Do black belts that can inflict pain. KJKB is only concerned about hurting people. There is a difference between being able to hurt people, and only training for that purpose.
If you train to use a gun and your only concern is being able to shoot people, then put the gun down because you don't need to use one. If you train to use a gun but you also train to have a peaceful mind so that you don't use it unless you have to, then you understand respect for human life.

Again some one tell me how the language or the customs of the the parent country will make you a better martial artist? How long do we have to adopt another culture before we make the arts our own?? How long did Japan wait before making Te in Karate-How long did Korean wait before making Karate Tae Kwon Do??

Again some one tell me how the language or the customs of the the parent country will make you a better martial artist? How long do we have to adopt another culture before we make the arts our own?? How long did Japan wait before making Te in Karate-How long did Korean wait before making Karate Tae Kwon Do??
AMEN!

Trust me, I've been kicked by Tae Kwon Do black belts that can inflict pain. KJKB is only concerned about hurting people. There is a difference between being able to hurt people, and only training for that purpose.
If you train to use a gun and your only concern is being able to shoot people, then put the gun down because you don't need to use one. If you train to use a gun but you also train to have a peaceful mind so that you don't use it unless you have to, then you understand respect for human life.
Of course KJKB trains people in moral or ethical standpoints-perhaps we should sound more like a fourtune cookie!! But is'nt that a rather immature take on the art? Not just mindless mimicing, but aping to the point of using the language, customs that are as foriegn to you as characters of other stylists?

Trust me, I've been kicked by Tae Kwon Do black belts that can inflict pain. KJKB is only concerned about hurting people. There is a difference between being able to hurt people, and only training for that purpose.
If you train to use a gun and your only concern is being able to shoot people, then put the gun down because you don't need to use one. If you train to use a gun but you also train to have a peaceful mind so that you don't use it unless you have to, then you understand respect for human life.
Lets see: My opinions about Kajukenbo have come from training and teaching it. Now that you have decided to interject gun training, I'll disagree with your opinion on that also, based on 32 years of gun training/instructing as a police officer.
So, I'm still asking what your exposure and experience in Kajukenbo has been to cause you to form such a strong opinion as to what it is or isn't.
I also see by your profile that you are a "nurse's aide". So maybe you can explain more what experience and exposure to "gun training" you have, since you've now given a strong opinion on it.

Lets face it none of use choose the "Finishing School Way of Enlightenment". All of use were drawn to the kicking the punching etc...Obviously it fed a need. To say you don't like a art cuz it works is like saying you don't like an accurate gun.


IMHO I have found a hugh difference (growing wider BTW) between schools that operate out in the suburbs vs those in a more city landscape. If you are in the city you need to what works, and how to make it work. The suburbs are a littler more theoritical and a little more on Philosophy during class time.
Most KJKB/Kenpo came out of urban, tougher areas. TKD is great way to get kids to listen to thier parents, or clean thier room. Is it morality or pandering???
Does a kid understand the morals in a different language or setting-Why not talk to a teeneager thew way he talks?

Does a urban KJKB guy have philosophy?? Sure, he wants to go home alive. The history of ancient dynasties, obscure moral references are great theories. But getting home is the reality
Give unto Caeser that which is Caeser's
Do not read while you are supposed to be practing football, and woinder why your team loses

No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.
You actually have to get to the advanced levels before they teach you the techniques that tickle.

No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.

Anyway, my commenting on KJKB is as justified as a KJKB or judo student going to the Tae Kwon Do forum and responding. The question was "What do you think about KJKB?" I gave my answer. Nobody said you had to like it.

First off, this thread is not a discussion about comparing TKD to Kajukenbo. It is a discussion about what people think about Kajukenbo. I, as well as many others here, as curious as to what research you've done on Kajukenbo? Have you visited a school? Have you trained in it? Are you going on what you've heard from others? How can anyone say what the art is or isn't unless they've seen it first hand? We have someone on this forum, Mr. Bishop, who studies Kajukenbo. That being said, I think I'd be more inclined to take the word of someone who studies the art, over someone who may/may not have really looked at the art.

As for "cherry picking" techniques. Are you honestly telling us that TKD, since day 1, when it was first thought of, did not do the very same thing? Every single school in the world that teaches TKD, teaches the exact same things? No variations? No additions? Nothing removed? Everything that the founder of TKD used to create the system is taught by everyone?

Mike

First off, this thread is not a discussion about comparing TKD to Kajukenbo. It is a discussion about what people think about Kajukenbo. I, as well as many others here, as curious as to what research you've done on Kajukenbo? Have you visited a school? Have you trained in it? Are you going on what you've heard from others? How can anyone say what the art is or isn't unless they've seen it first hand? We have someone on this forum, Mr. Bishop, who studies Kajukenbo. That being said, I think I'd be more inclined to take the word of someone who studies the art, over someone who may/may not have really looked at the art.

As for "cherry picking" techniques. Are you honestly telling us that TKD, since day 1, when it was first thought of, did not do the very same thing? Every single school in the world that teaches TKD, teaches the exact same things? No variations? No additions? Nothing removed? Everything that the founder of TKD used to create the system is taught by everyone?

Mike

Well, I haven't studied KJKB either. But I have been beaten up by more than a few KJKB practitioners.

No, the reasons I don't like Kajukenbo are that it is a cherry picker martial art and that it only cares about teaching techniques that inflict pain on people.
yes, because lord knows, when you're learning how to make war on one or more other people you dont want to hurt their sensitive little exteriors.

Well, I haven't studied KJKB either. But I have been beaten up by more than a few KJKB practitioners.

Whats up Alan!!!

Going by what you said in your post, you've obviously done some training with some KJKB people. What were your thoughts of the art?

Mike

Yeah, I wanted to "throw" that flag post in there. How is this related to KJKB? Everything. Because to pay homage to a art does not mean to pay homage to the country of origin. Paying homage to a art can be done by many ways. KJKB has done this in a way of mixing other arts to form one. ALL martial arts have a foundation based on other arts. Thus, they too branch off and create their own. Do you think the Chinese Boxing Club has a Amercian flag in their gym? Do you think the Korean Fencing Club has a French flag in theirs? And so on...

Whats up Alan!!!

Going by what you said in your post, you've obviously done some training with some KJKB people. What were your thoughts of the art?

Mike

Well, Mike:

I have never met a Kajukenbo guy who could not fight. I've met a few Kenpo and Kempo people who could not fight.

Back in the 70's and 80's, there was a Kajukenbo club in the East Bay called "Crazy Dragons". These guys would go to tournaments and fight hard. I lost more matches to these guys than I won. The Crazy Dragons were very aggressive and were pretty willing to throw down in the parking lot outside the tournament if they weren't happy with the way things went. I think they were Gaylord Method, but I'm not sure.

At my Kenpo school, everyone had weekly private lessons (like in the Tracy system). After I got my Black Belt, my instructor was a woman who had trained some Won Hop Kuen Do under Al Dacascos. She was a great Kenpoist and I think her Kaju training helped her quite a bit.

Also had the priviledge of training with a few Kajukenbo practioners who came through our school over the years.

Most recently, one of the guys who trained BJJ up here was a Won Hop Kuen Do Black Belt who used to run his own club up in the Northwest somewhere. He was about 6 inches taller than me, in his 20's, and trained BJJ, or kickboxing, running, weightlifting every day. And there I was...in my early/mid-40's, carry some extra weight, and only exercising 2 or 3 times a week. You can guess the result. :lol:

Yeah, I wanted to "throw" that flag post in there. How is this related to KJKB? Everything. Because to pay homage to a art does not mean to pay homage to the country of origin. Paying homage to a art can be done by many ways. KJKB has done this in a way of mixing other arts to form one. ALL martial arts have a foundation based on other arts. Thus, they too branch off and create their own. Do you think the Chinese Boxing Club has a Amercian flag in their gym? Do you think the Korean Fencing Club has a French flag in theirs? And so on...
if the club in question is in chins there should be chinese, once the club comes to america (or where ever) the flag is american. Is'nt that suppossed to be the deal? Allegence to the country you are in? I

if the club in question is in chins there should be chinese, once the club comes to america (or where ever) the flag is american. Is'nt that suppossed to be the deal? Allegence to the country you are in? I

Personally, I don't care what flag they fly. As long as I am not required to salute a foreign flag.

Well, Mike:

I have never met a Kajukenbo guy who could not fight. I've met a few Kenpo and Kempo people who could not fight.


MOST of the TKD guys I've met couldn't fight. They had pretty kicks, but fighting was not their forte'. Of course, I'm not talking about the point sparring matches, but rather boxing gloves, free sparring.

MOST of the TKD guys I've met couldn't fight. They had pretty kicks, but fighting was not their forte'. Of course, I'm not talking about the point sparring matches, but rather boxing gloves, free sparring.

I agree. Most of the TKD people I've met could not fight. However, every person I've met from this school could fight.

http://www.goldenstatetkd.com/

Some became successful pro boxers and kickboxers. They've also produced Olympic Gold Medalists who could punch as well as kick.

You actually have to get to the advanced levels before they teach you the techniques that tickle.
OMFG I have to clean my monitor FUNNIEST POST EVER

Michigan,

Ina real fight you know when you have lost.

In a discussion like this it is not so obvious, solet me help

YOU LOSE! YOU ARE WRONG!

Michigan,

Ina real fight you know when you have lost.

In a discussion like this it is not so obvious, solet me help

YOU LOSE! YOU ARE WRONG!
now thats funny

Michigan,

Ina real fight you know when you have lost.

In a discussion like this it is not so obvious, solet me help

YOU LOSE! YOU ARE WRONG!

That is really funny...especially when it comes from a "Shaolin Kempo" guy. Isn't this like the pot calling the kettle "black"?

Well, Mike:

I have never met a Kajukenbo guy who could not fight. I've met a few Kenpo and Kempo people who could not fight.

Back in the 70's and 80's, there was a Kajukenbo club in the East Bay called "Crazy Dragons". These guys would go to tournaments and fight hard. I lost more matches to these guys than I won. The Crazy Dragons were very aggressive and were pretty willing to throw down in the parking lot outside the tournament if they weren't happy with the way things went. I think they were Gaylord Method, but I'm not sure.


Thanx for the compliment. That was the school I attended in the mid to late '70's. We were Gaylord method but Sigi left as a brown belt and eventually ended up under Joseph Bautista.

I guess we may have unknowingly crossed paths some time ago. :asian:

if the club in question is in chins there should be chinese, once the club comes to america (or where ever) the flag is american. Is'nt that suppossed to be the deal? Allegence to the country you are in? I
I mean to you think that people, other than Korea, take Japan or France, whom practice TKD, many display the Korean Flag?

And what is with the Korean flag.

Its symbols are old Chinese variety-right?

That is really funny...especially when it comes from a "Shaolin Kempo" guy. Isn't this like the pot calling the kettle "black"?
That's coming from someone who can see that this guy hasn't made one coherent argument to support his negative comments.

Are you saying you agree with MichiganTKD? Or just like takin pot shots? Good one, you got me ooooo Zing!

Actually David, I've made many coherent statements. Whether or not you choose to agree with them is a different matter. That's the nature of opinions. They are a person's viewpoints.
And OFK is correct in this: I have at least heard of Kajukenbo. What exactly is Shaolin Kenpo? That I've never heard of. And I've heard of lots of styles.

MTKD
There are two branchs of Shaolin Kenpo

One is from GM Ralph Castro, whom studied directly with GM Chow. The "Shaolin" does not designate any direct lineage or connection to the Shaolin Kung Fu styles-But rathere a homage to the Shaolin Temple. Whether there any more "Shaoliness" in the style is open to debate
(next thread)
The other Shaolin Kenpo (also spelled Kempo) comes from GM Villari who studied up tp 1st Degree Black Belt with GM Nick Cerio. Again no direct connection to the Shaolin Kung fu styles
So now you know enough to start throwing opinions around, have at!!
BTW I know the its off thread But TKD as successfully lowered the bar so far that no one even blinks at Black belts who are like 6 years old

Of course I could also say the same things about Kaju Kenpo or Kempo Jujitsu: What exactly are they?

So basically Ralph Castro named his style after something it probably has nothing to do with. Nice. He didn't hang around with the Hwa Rang Do people did he?

And what exactly differentiates the Kenpo of Castro from that of Ed Parker except for a spelling error?

Actually David, I've made many coherent statements. Whether or not you choose to agree with them is a different matter. That's the nature of opinions. They are a person's viewpoints.
And OFK is correct in this: I have at least heard of Kajukenbo. What exactly is Shaolin Kenpo? That I've never heard of. And I've heard of lots of styles.
Shaolin Kempo has been around a long time. It's a direct decendant of Kajukenbo. Kajukenbo black belt Sonny Gascon broke off and established Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu. One of his black belts, George Pesare went to New England and taught there. One of his black belts, Nick Cerio, taught Fred Villari who changed the name to Shaolin Kempo and taught it in his studios. Depending on when one learned it, and from whom one learned it, Shaolin Kempo is a very solid martial art. Unfortunately, most of what is taught these days is watered down in terms of the requirements for technical proficiency as it has become far too comercialized. That's what OFK meant when he said that about SK making fun of TKD (though I don't think that's what Dave was doing. I think he was saying that Michigan TKD was shown to be wrong about Kajukenbo). The solid Shaolin Kempo that's being taught now a days, is usually found in privately owned break off schools where they can be strict and not conflict with a larger organization that's more worried about making money than producing good students. You're all wet about Kajukenbo though. Those guys never compromised their standards.

Of course I could also say the same things about Kaju Kenpo or Kempo Jujitsu: What exactly are they?

So basically Ralph Castro named his style after something it probably has nothing to do with. Nice. He didn't hang around with the Hwa Rang Do people did he?

And what exactly differentiates the Kenpo of Castro from that of Ed Parker except for a spelling error?
I think GM Castro was inspired by the naming of Tae Kwon Do, after all, wasn't Choi the one that heard the name Tae Kyonn from a Caligraphy teacher and with never having studied the art was so inspired named the Shotokan system he was studing Tang So Do (which is of course the Koran pronouncation of the Karate), which later would become Tae kwon Do

With the limited knowledge of EPAK, I would say Parker's Kenpo reflects a lot more time with the Chinese Martial Arts Community

BTW-the infamous spelling error was between Parker's keNpo and Mitoses's KeMpo.

And what exactly differentiates the Kenpo of Castro from that of Ed Parker except for a spelling error?
SGM Castro is a Chow student, not a parker student.

zation that's more worried about making money than You're all wet about Kajukenbo though. Those guys never compromised their standards.
Not only that. Emperado has set his system up with the 9th degree Grandmasters. I'm sure he did it on purpose so that after his passing each Grandmaster has his own line and "no need for self promotion and infighting."

A quiet genious.

Actually David, I've made many coherent statements. Whether or not you choose to agree with them is a different matter. That's the nature of opinions. They are a person's viewpoints.
And OFK is correct in this: I have at least heard of Kajukenbo. What exactly is Shaolin Kenpo? That I've never heard of. And I've heard of lots of styles.
You've never heard of Shaolin Kempo? haha I don't know if that was an attempt to zing me or my style LOL it didn't work. If you count number of schools or number of students, it's in the top handful of popular styles in the US. It's just not that popular in the midwest. So, you having never heard of it tells more about you than about Shaolin Kempo.

but anyway...

You move beyond stating opinion when you say something like "it does not teach these things". That's an assertion of fact (incorrect fact, but asserted as fact). Now, if you said "They don't teach them very well" that would be an opinion. So you are asserting things as facts which you cannot support.

And what I meant by "coherent argument" - just answer the simple question - what experiecne do you have with Kajukenbo that leads you to believe that the style does not teach "moral substance"?? You repeatedly asserted this but have no evidence to back it up, and have related no pesonal experience that could have given you this impression. You know, if you went to a Kaju school and they didn't teach that stuff, then your opinion would be a lot more valid that it is coming off as now.

So what do I think of Kajukenbo - I am proud that Shaolin Kempo is so closely realted to such a well-designed art, and the more my SK resembles Kaju, the more I like it. Given SK's reputation for McDojoism (thanks Mr. Demasco) I have personally put to rest all of my concerns that my style might be a sham, or that my training might be weak or unalive or ineffective. We train hard and we train alive and we train to be the one that gets to go home after the fight.

Shaolin Kempo has been around a long time. It's a direct decendant of Kajukenbo. Kajukenbo black belt Sonny Gascon broke off and established Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu. One of his black belts, George Pesare went to New England and taught there...
Not to be too nit-picky, but Pesare was only ever ranked to purple belt by Sijo Gascon. Well, later on, like in early 2000's, he was given some high dan rank... but when he moved from the west coast to east in the 70s he was a purple belt. Clearly a talented Martial Artist, don't get me wrong... but he was not a black belt when he started teaching (and promoting people) in New England.

Well, Mike:

I have never met a Kajukenbo guy who could not fight. I've met a few Kenpo and Kempo people who could not fight.

Back in the 70's and 80's, there was a Kajukenbo club in the East Bay called "Crazy Dragons". These guys would go to tournaments and fight hard. I lost more matches to these guys than I won. The Crazy Dragons were very aggressive and were pretty willing to throw down in the parking lot outside the tournament if they weren't happy with the way things went. I think they were Gaylord Method, but I'm not sure.

At my Kenpo school, everyone had weekly private lessons (like in the Tracy system). After I got my Black Belt, my instructor was a woman who had trained some Won Hop Kuen Do under Al Dacascos. She was a great Kenpoist and I think her Kaju training helped her quite a bit.

Also had the priviledge of training with a few Kajukenbo practioners who came through our school over the years.

Most recently, one of the guys who trained BJJ up here was a Won Hop Kuen Do Black Belt who used to run his own club up in the Northwest somewhere. He was about 6 inches taller than me, in his 20's, and trained BJJ, or kickboxing, running, weightlifting every day. And there I was...in my early/mid-40's, carry some extra weight, and only exercising 2 or 3 times a week. You can guess the result. :lol:

Thanks for the reply Alan! Its good to hear from some others that have had some exposure to the system.

Mike

So there are hardly any differences of Shaolin Kenpo, Kempo, Kenpo, other than spelling and lineage? Which seems that all are connected?

So there are hardly any differences of Shaolin Kenpo, Kempo, Kenpo, other than spelling and lineage? Which seems that all are connected?

Looking from the outside, the differences may not seem huge. Looking from the inside, the differences are huge.

Looking from the outside, the differences may not seem huge. Looking from the inside, the differences are huge.
Yes, I would agree with that. I think many of the principles and ideas are similar, but how they are taught and learned can be very divergent.

So, they are connected somewhat?

So, they are connected somewhat?

All the systems descended from Chow have some similarities when compared with pure Chinese or pure JKO Karate styles. The similarities and differences are too much too detail here. I suggest you search MartialTalk and some other forums.

So there are hardly any differences of Shaolin Kenpo, Kempo, Kenpo, other than spelling and lineage? Which seems that all are connected?
Not exactly connected in any direct sense. Shaolin KeNpo is from Castro who was a direct student of Prof. Chow. Shaolin KeMpo is from Villari (see my previous post.) Which is from Sijo Emperado. Now, Emperado was also a direct student of Prof. Chow, but went in a different direction than either Castro or Parker (who was ALSO a direct student of Prof. Chow). So they all go back to Chow, but then go in quite different directions after that.

Actually working with the different systems you can see some of the same techniques. Sometimes applied differently of different foot forward. But the difference can be hugh

SGM Castro is a Chow student, not a parker student.

Let's tell it like it was...... Sure in the later years he became a student of Chow's but early on.......... he was first a student of Ed Parker's, which is where he received his black belt before changing later.

:asian:

Let's tell it like it was...... Sure in the later years he became a student of Chow's but early on.......... he was first a student of Ed Parker's, which is where he received his black belt before changing later.

:asian:
Good point. When you go that route, they are all connected. Parker got his 8th degree from Emperado. Cerio, who was Villari's instructor, was promoted to 9th by Parker etc. So there was a lot of cross ranking/recognition etc.

I posted in wrong thread, sorry. MODS can delete if they choose to.

Let's tell it like it was...... Sure in the later years he became a student of Chow's but early on.......... he was first a student of Ed Parker's, which is where he received his black belt before changing later.

:asian:
My bad. :asian:

Parker got his 8th degree from Emperado.

Not exactly. Ed Parker never asked for any "promotions or rank" from anyone. He did however receive many various "acknowledgements or rank resignations" from several different organizations and instructors.

Many of these he never mentioned for good reason. Many "bestowed" these ranks on him for his numerous accomplishments to the martial arts and to be able to show some sort of connection to him. He was more than happy to "stand alone" on his own accomplishments and innovations. He accepted most of these out or respect not out of need.

Today,there are those that can't wait to display all their different "ranks" and promotions that they have "collected" from anyone and everyone that would give them some sort of attention or acknowledgements.


Cerio, who was Villari's instructor, was promoted to 9th by Parker etc.

No, he was give a cross-rank acknowledgement for the rank he already claimed he had. Parker never "promoted" him at all. He was supposed to join the IKKA and learn the material but this never happened, and after a short period of time the relationship ended.

:asian:

My bad. :asian:

No biggie!:)

Not exactly. Ed Parker never asked for any "promotions or rank" from anyone. He did however receive many various "acknowledgements or rank resignations" from several different organizations and instructors.

Many of these he never mentioned for good reason. Many "bestowed" these ranks on him for his numerous accomplishments to the martial arts and to be able to show some sort of connection to him. He was more than happy to "stand alone" on his own accomplishments and innovations. He accepted most of these out or respect not out of need.

Today,there are those that can't wait to display all their different "ranks" and promotions that they have "collected" from anyone and everyone that would give them some sort of attention or acknowledgements.


No, he was give a cross-rank acknowledgement for the rank he already claimed he had. Parker never "promoted" him at all. He was supposed to join the IKKA and learn the material but this never happened, and after a short period of time the relationship ended.

:asian:Hmmmm. That's interesting because it goes against everything written abouit him and his promotions. Also, Cerio was not claiming the 9th until Parker gave it to him in their mutual art of "American Kenpo" according to the Cerio people. What's usually written is that Parker was promoted by Chow to 1st degree so that he could teach on the mainland. There is much speculation on whether his 3rd from Chow was real or forged due to the fact that Chow claimed he didn't talk to Parker after giving him a 1st degree black. The story then goes that Parker, in 1964, went from 3rd to 6th in a hotel room in Long Beach before the tournement because that would be the rank suitable for one hosting the tournement. His 8th has always been reported as having come from Emperado. Where he got the rest of his ranks I don't know. But if these facts are all wrong, by all means post the actual history here.

Hmmmm. That's interesting because it goes against everything written abouit him and his promotions. Also, Cerio was not claiming the 9th until Parker gave it to him in their mutual art of "American Kenpo" according to the Cerio people. Actually, the art is listed as "Kenpo Karate" on the certificate, not "American Kenpo". There was no claim to 9th prior to this promotion.

Actually, the art is listed as "Kenpo Karate" on the certificate, not "American Kenpo". There was no claim to 9th prior to this promotion.
Thanks for the correction.

Thanks for the correction.
You're welcome....

So, they are all connected. They share a common lineage?

Chinese Kempo, Kenpo, Kempo....

Connected? Sure. Common lineage? Not really, there are points in the lineages that are common between two or more, but the entire lineage is not the same. And at each branch point in the family tree there were changes made, so the systems are very different.

Connected? Sure. Common lineage? Not really, there are points in the lineages that are common between two or more, but the entire lineage is not the same. And at each branch point in the family tree there were changes made, so the systems are very different.
I am not syaing that the techniques and/or methods are entirly the same. I am saying that do they share a common lineage?

I am not syaing that the techniques and/or methods are entirly the same. I am saying that do they share a common lineage?
Here's the family tree/lineage chart for you from John Bishop's web site: http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/kenpofamilytree.cfm

Here's the family tree/lineage chart for you from John Bishop's web site: http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/kenpofamilytree.cfm
THANK YOU!!, THANK YOU!!, THANK YOU!:asian:

This is what I have been curious about...

Hmmmm. That's interesting because it goes against everything written about him and his promotions.

Exactly what, written where and by who?:idunno:


Also, Cerio was not claiming the 9th until Parker gave it to him in their mutual art of "American Kenpo" according to the Cerio people.

Well then it must be so if his people say so.:idunno:


What's usually written is that Parker was promoted by Chow to 1st degree so that he could teach on the mainland. There is much speculation on whether his 3rd from Chow was real or forged due to the fact that Chow claimed he didn't talk to Parker after giving him a 1st degree black.

The story then goes that Parker, in 1964, went from 3rd to 6th in a hotel room in Long Beach before the tournament because that would be the rank suitable for one hosting the tournament.

Yes, to my knowledge he received his black belt from Chow, this is common knowledge, as to the other promotions.... like you say speculation. What I do know is that no one including Chow dared to dispute any of his ranks when he was alive with him...... would you?


His 8th has always been reported as having come from Emperado. Where he got the rest of his ranks I don't know. But if these facts are all wrong, by all means post the actual history here.

It is also well known that Emperado was his senior and he even stated that himself to me. However, I believe the 8th was a gesture of accomplishment from Emperado not a necessity or asked for. There you have it.

:asian:

Does anyone know if there are any Kajukenbo dojo's in Ireland?It seems that there are a whole load of styles that have never shown up over here, more's the pity.

Does anyone know if there are any Kajukenbo dojo's in Ireland?It seems that there are a whole load of styles that have never shown up over here, more's the pity.
Kajukenbo Cafe doesn't show any schools in Ireland, but I don't know how complete the listings are. You might go over there and ask....

Exactly what, written where and by who?:idunno:


Well then it must be so if his people say so.:idunno:


Yes, to my knowledge he received his black belt from Chow, this is common knowledge, as to the other promotions.... like you say speculation. What I do know is that no one including Chow dared to dispute any of his ranks when he was alive with him...... would you?


It is also well known that Emperado was his senior and he even stated that himself to me. However, I believe the 8th was a gesture of accomplishment from Emperado not a necessity or asked for. There you have it.

:asian:
1) It's in many places on the net. I'll find some and post said links.

2) Cerio's people are not to be trusted, but we take your say so at face value?

3) I think it's more that Chow didn't BOTHER to dispute Parker's claims, not that he didn't DARE. I don't think Chow was afraid of Parker.

Anyways, I've got nothing against Parker, just those students of his that think he walked on water and the rest were having trouble dog paddling.

Not to be too nit-picky, but Pesare was only ever ranked to purple belt by Sijo Gascon. Well, later on, like in early 2000's, he was given some high dan rank... but when he moved from the west coast to east in the 70s he was a purple belt. Clearly a talented Martial Artist, don't get me wrong... but he was not a black belt when he started teaching (and promoting people) in New England.
You are dead on right about that one. My mistake. David, do me a favor and ask Shihan Geary when the dvd in