Lock Flow Drills

[ikenpo]

Noticed that a lot of instructors incorporate things that aren't in the base curriculum. Two of those things being lock flow drills and knife disarm drills (the sort of thrust and cut method). Anyone around here incorporate this kind of stuff?

jb:asian:

[Kempojujutsu]

I use two different drills. First one Lock for Lock. Someone puts a lock on you, You counter it and put a lock on them, and they counter it. The Second Lock flow drill you try to put at lease 3 locks and or put your attacker in a bad postion. We don't just work locks. we put in chokes, throws, and locks.
Bob :asian:

[Kirk]

We do lock flow drills, and whobud (sp?) drills a LOT! They're
great for developing speed. We also do a lot of sticky hand
drills (pac sao, lop sao and a few more that I can't remember the
name of) for this purpose also.

[Goldendragon7]

correct?

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

correct?

:asian:

Hubud lubud and chi sau from jkd? No. You knew that though didn't you:confused:


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

[Seig]

there are locks in some of the techniques that I have worked in American Kenpo that appear to me to be hidden. They are there if you look for them. Examine Sword of Destruction and see if you can find where there is the potential for a wrist lock that in aikido would be known as the second hand position.

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:asian:

Chi sau "sticking hands" predates JKD by a few hundred years- I first learned about it from an AK teacher but was reafirmed by a guy who taught Southern Mantis. Which Supposedly was the precurser to Wing Chun. Learned some of their drills way back when. Simular ideas found in push hands. An example of hubud can be found where big circles = big trouble. I can't remeber if its origins were indonesion or filipino or both. It has been a long time since I looked at anything but AK- sheesh I can't make the time to go outside the art anymore- too busy within it.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Seig

there are locks in some of the techniques that I have worked in American Kenpo that appear to me to be hidden. They are there if you look for them. Examine Sword of Destruction and see if you can find where there is the potential for a wrist lock that in aikido would be known as the second hand position.

Yes the proper name for this is contact manipulation=applied kenpo;) = the fourth range

[Seig]

Reinventing the wheel!

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

correct?

:asian:

Sir, someone asked about Lockflows on Mr. Trejo's board once and I found a tape/book from Larry Hartsell on his website that seems to have the Lockflow drill 1-12 that was taught to my classmates and I around 1987. We were just taught some of those Lockflows in a special weapons class this week as well. On occasion he will demonstrate how you can insert a flat out lockflow into a technique. I think there is one already in place in Spiraling Twig though for example.

Jonathan also likes the Hubud drill and we did it in his class recently and I noticed that the 3 drills he was doing were very similar to the Rocking Bridge series and more interestingly that one of the drills was basically "Circles of Protection" which he agreed with. I don't know where Jonathan got them but he says the Hubid is an old Filipino drill that children play as a Game! He says it is hundreds of years old.

Thought you might find that interesting. Someone else posted about Sticky Hands I see but that is another concept as well, I think. Tai Chi "Push Hands" look a lot like "Sticky Hands" to me.

In response to the original question, "Yes" we do sometimes stop and "smell the roses" on our Kenpo journey in class. There is a lot of stuff "hidden" in the techniques (like the Hubid drills and Lockflows) as if Mr. Parker put it there so he could come back later and show you how to cultivate it. This stuff is very interesting to me. Mr. Parker seems to have hidden a lot of stuff by putting half of it in somewhere (like half of a wrist lock or strike near a perhaps unknown pressure point) so that it could be more fully appreciated at a later date.

I hope Mr. C will elaborate on this for us.
:)

[Seig]

but it seems to me that SGM Parker hid a lot of stuff to allow his followers "discovery" of the hidden things. The reason I say this is that the base of the system is Logic. If you start examining things form a logical point of view, a lot of the "hidden" or "half" things seem to appear. Just my $.02, that's $.75 Canadian

[Michael Billings]

Hmmmm? I know you have Sticky Hands, or Chi Sao in Wing Chun (in all the different spellings) and that is where it came into the Jeet Kune Do sytem, directly from Bruce Lee.

You also have Sticky Hands in Tai Chi Chuan Fa, but it is called Pushing Hands. I rememer getting pushed around a lot in the mid-70's when I was learning Tae Chi (in between Tae-Kwon-Do and Kenpo.)

The Lock-Flow set I was introduced to was at a camp in 1982 or '83, by Gary Swan, NCKKA, and he had gotten it from Wally Jay SMALL CIRCLE JU-JITSU. It is 12 locks with attendant release moves. This was later grafted into Kenpo techniques, with contact manipulations, by Brian Duffy, AKF, and others.

It has been torn apart, analyzed, and redefined in Kenpo terms, since it is all just movement and another expression of principles, concepts, and theories. It utilizes fulcrums, levers, checking height, width, and depth, skeletal and muscular limitations, and small circles, courtesy of Wally Jay, a good friend of Mr. Parker's. His small circles fall nicely into our ECONOMY OF MOTION and OUTER RIM THEORY.

So what is not to love? It is all Kenpo by the fact that none of the moves are not found somewhere within the base or extended techniqes. I like the minimal force application for Law Enforcement, teachers, bouncers, psychiatric hospital workers, etc. If it does not work due to unforseen considerations (like sweat, multiple opponents, environment, etc.), you can always GRAFT into the original technique or another one for the Kenpo Fantasy.

Does this make sense? I hope so. We train the Lock Flows regularly, but they are a "WHAT IF".

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

The Lock-Flow set I was introduced to was at a camp in 1982 or '83, by Gary Swan, NCKKA, and he had gotten it from Wally Jay SMALL CIRCLE JU-JITSU. It is 12 locks with attendant release moves. This was later grafted into Kenpo techniques, with contact manipulations, by Brian Duffy, AKF, and others.



Right on sir. I agree with yours and the previous post which was worth .75 Canadian.

But regarding the quoted section above, I distinctly remember Mr. Swan telling us that he got the 12 Lockflows and counters from a weekend or weeklong seminar with Larry Hartsell and he has a picture of himself and Larry Hartsell still hanging in the studio as of the last time I was in there sometime in 2001. This does not mean that you are wrong of course, because I was not at a camp in '83. I had not signed up yet. But I remember when the Lockflows were introduced to us at the studio much later around 1987, maybe as late as '89 even.

The site I mentioned earlier where I seem to have found those particular drills is
http://www.jkdassoc.com/
and the video I think I located is on the Product List now as ""ENTERING TO TRAPPING TO GRAPPLING" VOL. #1 " and features "AS A BONUS!!! A standing lock flow, foot sectoring, takedowns to submissions."

They have changed their site since I was last there, but I'm still interested in this tape if anyone has seen it. I know that after we were introduced to the Lockflows, we got 12 Reversals and my brown belt test was one of if not the first test to require 5 technique be done that each incorporated a Lockflow, Takedown and Restraining hold. Making those up was so cool. That whole process was cool but I digress.

Thank you all for the great thread. :cool:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by cdhall



But regarding the quoted section above, I distinctly remember Mr. Swan telling us that he got the 12 Lockflows and counters from a weekend or weeklong seminar with Larry Hartsell and he has a picture of himself and Larry Hartsell still hanging in the studio as of the last time I was in there sometime in 2001. This does not mean that you are wrong of course, because I was not at a camp in '83. I had not signed up yet. But I remember when the Lockflows were introduced to us at the studio much later around 1987, maybe as late as '89 even.

The site I mentioned earlier where I seem to have found those particular drills is
http://www.jkdassoc.com/
and the video I think I located is on the Product List now as ""ENTERING TO TRAPPING TO GRAPPLING" VOL. #1 " and features "AS A BONUS!!! A standing lock flow, foot sectoring, takedowns to submissions."

Thank you all for the great thread. :cool:


Hey Doug,

Yeah I always thought it was Mr. Hartsell as well, and I've seen that picture you spoke of. I remember when it made it to our side as well. I want to say it was 88 or 89. I remember we were working on an update to "stone warrior" and then Mr. Abedin breaks out with these lock flows.


I do have that video and Mr. Hartsell does a lock flow very similar to the one we did way back when, but the exact same moves are in Wally Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu book (as i look at it). The only reason I would lean toward Hartsell is because the finger lock percision wasn't there when I first learned it. There were finger manipulations that were great, but not small circle jujitsu style (once again from the tape I've seen). Doesn't mean I'm right....may have to go to the well of knowledge (Mr. Swan) to find that one out.

In regards to your brown belt test...still one of my favorite kenpo "home videos" although I have a few that pushed ya down on the list...LOL.

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Seig
Reinventing the wheel!

hee hee........

The four dimensional stages of action are.....

1) out of range
2) in range
3) contact penetration
4) contact manipulation

:asian:

[eternalwhitebelt]

Went to a Huk seminar about six years ago, about my tenth time seeing him. I took a jujitsu 2nd degree black belt with me. About a third of the way into the seminar after many questions concerning locks by my friend the seminar just turned into nothing but locks and flows off of kenpo techs. On driving home my friend says something to the effect of wow I had no idea kenpo was so much like jujitsu except your instructor explains everything better. I said yeah I didn't either. After many other classes with Huk I began to see the light. There are now a ton of lock flows being taught with Kenpo. At our school we mix a lot of hubud lubud with lock flows and disarms and kenpo techs. The only problem is it seems to confuse a lot of people early on in there training. Most of the drills are coming out of straight filipino flows, some silat flows, and some jun fan/jkd flows. Huk got a lot of his stuff from dan inosanto himself, which truth be told is the source of a lot of stuff floating around. He tore down a lot of walls.

[eternalwhitebelt]

I meant Inosanto being the source, just to clarify.

[Seig]

What is hubud lubud ?

[eternalwhitebelt]

filipino training drill means to tie and untie. similar to push hands or chi sao. Teaches many things.

Using it with sumbrada or palisut it is very useful when added to kenpo.

Filipino arts have wonderful drills in them that help me understand kenpo a lot more. I get lost in everyone trying to sound like a student attempting to write a dissertation. FOR ME, the filipino arts bridge the gap in my undrstanding of EPAK. I love kenpo but sometimes it seems to get bogged down in technical stuff.

[sumdumguy]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

You also have Sticky Hands in Tai Chi Chuan Fa, but it is called Pushing Hands. I rememer getting pushed around a lot in the mid-70's when I was learning Tae Chi (in between Tae-Kwon-Do and Kenpo.)

The same basic concepts of these drills are also taught in some of the forms and techniques of AK.




The Lock-Flow set I was introduced to was at a camp in 1982 or '83, by Gary Swan, NCKKA, and he had gotten it from Wally Jay SMALL CIRCLE JU-JITSU. It is 12 locks with attendant release moves. This was later grafted into Kenpo techniques, with contact manipulations, by Brian Duffy, AKF, and others.

It has been torn apart, analyzed, and redefined in Kenpo terms, since it is all just movement and another expression of principles, concepts, and theories. It utilizes fulcrums, levers, checking height, width, and depth, skeletal and muscular limitations, and small circles, courtesy of Wally Jay, a good friend of Mr. Parker's. His small circles fall nicely into our ECONOMY OF MOTION and OUTER RIM THEORY.

What about Manipulation Set? You remember that one Michael? Or are you teaching that at the camps now? heh, I knew I shouldn't have taught all that stuff! Levers, classes, and let's be real, the small circles are in the kenpo system you don't need Professor Wally Jay to teach it to you..... Hmmmmmm makes me wonder.........
Well have a nice day
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by sumdumguy
What about Manipulation Set?


What is that set?

:confused:

[Quinn-child]

...about most other people, but my instructor teaches us how to disarm knives, guns, etc. because...well, there're situations where we might need it, I guess, and he teaches us the lock flow drills because contact manipulation through lock flow is always a good thing to know, just in case, I think.

Oos - :asian:
Quinn

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



What is that set?

:confused:

Just a set that uses the constituents of the fourth range. Hopefully he will expand on this- not my place to do it but did not want to leave you hanging.

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

I think I may have seen this and some others on the kenponet flame. There were a few I saw that I have not seen before.
Jason Farnsworth

[Rainman]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

I think I may have seen this and some others on the kenponet flame. There were a few I saw that I have not seen before.
Jason Farnsworth


No- manipulation set is my teachers.;)

[Goldendragon7]

This is something that todd came up with......... cool...... I'd like to see it some time.

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

I was mistaken when I looked at it again I noticed under the various other sets being Lock Flow, Mass Attack and another one. Sorry,
Jason Farnsworth

[Michael Billings]

I just wish I had of learned Manipulation Set Todd. Was that sour grapes or a little bitterness? I still do the same old same old Lock Flow, but have added some pressure point and 2-Joint controls now, I am able to find a contact manipulation in almost any technique. I am not teaching at UKS camps, or at least not the last one (was not able to attend.)

YOU still have the distinction of systematically organizing contact manipulations, contact releases, and contact immobilizations to the entire 154 techniques as far as I have seen. Nothing out there better so far.

There is other material that borders on the manipulations we both like. I just had a great time with Howard Silva a couple of weeks ago. 72 years old and can still kick you in the head and teach a 3 hour class. But what I really liked was he inserted some nice incidental breaks, that could be manipulations, into techniques that even my white belts were comfortable with.

Ed Parker, Jr. was in San Antonio this weekend at Curtis Abernathy's school. He is doing a nice menage of things in the context of Kenpo. A lot of blending, kinesthetic joint manipulation, (hip/shoulder, ankle/elbow, etc.) Some SL4 things.

Maybe I can talk Curtis Abernathy, Jeff Schroeder and some other Kenpo instructors into getting you down here sometime. I think we are going to try and get the Golden One in next if possible. But I, having worked with you, would love to get together sometime and have you do a seminar. Not sure how you feel about "sharing" your material anymore, or what you seem to think I am teaching that is yours.

I am sure it will get cleared up "in the fullness of time" - that is if either of us cares. And I do.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

I think we are going to try and get the Golden One in next if possible

That would soooooooooo kick butt! You'd hafta come into town
earlier, so we can all go have some beers, and mexican food!

Incidentally Mr Billings, I have to say how much I enjoyed working
out with you! You're a humble man with a LOT of knowledge, and
not only an eagerness to teach it, but DAMNED GOOD AT DOING
IT!!! Thanks for your time, I enjoyed meeting you!

Jason, I didn't get to workout with ya, but it was cool to meetcha
and "choot the chit" with ya on breaks!

[sumdumguy]

Mr. Billings,
Yes a little bitter, but not at you! I should not have said those things because you where one of the better people there. I just typed this big long thing on here and my cpu disconected and the whole !@#$!@#$!# thing was erased! So I will give you the end and let it be. Yes I would teach a seminar for you, I do have regrets and I know that you are teaching what you where doing before I came along. Besides, I didn't really give anyone a whole lot of info at the camps. And I didn't give it in any organized manner so that no one would figure it out until I was ready... But, Oh yeah, Mr. Parker did that too didn't he.... hehehe
Sumdumguy:asian:

[sumdumguy]

Originally posted by Seig

but it seems to me that SGM Parker hid a lot of stuff to allow his followers "discovery" of the hidden things. The reason I say this is that the base of the system is Logic. If you start examining things form a logical point of view, a lot of the "hidden" or "half" things seem to appear. Just my $.02, that's $.75 Canadian

Why is it that everyone seems to think that Mr. Parker hid all this stuff in the system? I challenge you to create a technique simple motion, with oh say three or four basics and steps. then analyze this technique to the point that you don't think you can find anything else and then when your to that point show it to someone else and let them analyze it and then compare notes? See what happens........ I gaurantee you that all though Mr. Parker was nothing short of genius I don't believe that he created each individual technique with every facet of every area of the Martial arts in mind..... Food for thought? This is not meant to cause a riot although I'm sure a lot of you will throw a fit, it's just meant to spark some kind of thought..... we'll see?
Sumdumguy:asian: