Terrorist

[Kempojujutsu]

Since we caught one of those little S.O.B (Jose Padilla). What should we do with him. I feel since he wants to blow something up and kill alot of people. We should help him out. Shove a bomb up his ass and drop him over Afganistan or Pakistan. Show them terrorist this is what going to happen if you screw with the U.S.A

Bob:soapbox:

[sweeper]

I think we should punish him in the normal fasion.. if it could be proven that he was acting under orders of the al-quida (sp) network than he should be tried for treason, if he is convicted than we should take him into international waters and pump the guy full of drugs and figure out exactly who told him to do what.. than catch them and so on and so on...

[Kirk]

Both good options .. yet I think we should stuff his face full of
bacon and pork chops first, in either scenario. :mad:

[Kempojujutsu]

Yes Last meal with bacon, pork chops, sausage. Maybe smear him with pork lard or pig crap.
Bob: :sniper: :bird: :snipe2:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk

Both good options .. yet I think we should stuff his face full of
bacon and pork chops first, in either scenario. :mad:


Could I suggest if you make the threat of pork
have it be raw. This even turns my stomach.


All concerned should be given due process by the
laws of the land. If they are convicted then
they should be punished by the laws of the land.
If Treason is the charge then hanging could be
the punishment.

But, to fall to the comments of I think he is
guilty then he must die, brings our society to
status of terrorism itself. Yes vent your
frustration, and anger. I have. But, do not deny
anyone the due process by the law. To deny one,
even the guilty, opens the door to deny anyone,
even the innocent tomorrow. Now, I do hope that
if he and others are found guilty of treason that
the US government has a leg to stand on to
extract the information required to find everyone
else involved and to convict them.

Just my thoughts, and as this is a free society
I believe that you all have the right to disagree,
with me. And if you do, I encourage you to
express yourself here.

Best Regards

Rich

[Richard S.]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons




Could I suggest if you make the threat of pork
have it be raw. This even turns my stomach.


All concerned should be given due process by the
laws of the land. If they are convicted then
they should be punished by the laws of the land.
If Treason is the charge then hanging could be
the punishment.

But, to fall to the comments of I think he is
guilty then he must die, brings our society to
status of terrorism itself. Yes vent your
frustration, and anger. I have. But, do not deny
anyone the due process by the law. To deny one,
even the guilty, opens the door to deny anyone,
even the innocent tomorrow. Now, I do hope that
if he and others are found guilty of treason that
the US government has a leg to stand on to
extract the information required to find everyone
else involved and to convict them.

Just my thoughts, and as this is a free society
I believe that you all have the right to disagree,
with me. And if you do, I encourage you to
express yourself here.

Best Regards

Rich due process of law? it has been shown that the only "law" that these people understand is the law of blood and fear. how discouraging is the threat of a lengthy trial? if there is concrete evidence of terrorist intent then i believe "due process" should be tucked safely away in a drawer, the terrorist taken into a small,windowless room, and then let the screaming start...........respects.

[karatekid1975]

Law my ass! (Sorry mods). They killed 5000 people in one shot! "Law" could take years. By then there will be more of them f***ers! Let the military take care of them. :sniper:

A girl in my old school had the perfect suggestion. We should catch these bastards, lock them in a building, and fly a plane into it, just like they did us. :EG:

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Richard S.

due process of law? it has been shown that the only "law" that these people understand is the law of blood and fear. how discouraging is the threat of a lengthy trial? if there is concrete evidence of terrorist intent then i believe "due process" should be tucked safely away in a drawer, the terrorist taken into a small,windowless room, and then let the screaming start...........respects.


They ignore the law and kill people.
If we ignore the law and kill people, we're just as bad.

Part of what makes us a "civilized" society is our legal system. Our system of "liberty and justice" is what these people are fighting against. We need to show them that no matter what they do to us, we will not compromise that which the USA values most, our constitution and bill of rights. If we claim to value freedom, we can't take it away from someone else without appropriate procedures

Article [VI.]
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


That said, I do enjoy blasting Toby Keith's new song at top volume...quoted below.


"Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue" (The Angry American)

...Now this nation that I love
Is falling under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flying in
From somewhere in the back
As soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man we lit up your world
Like the Fourth of July

Hey, Uncle Sam put your name
At the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And it's going to be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide world
Is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy
Of the Red, White and Blue

Oh, justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed
With the U.S. of A.
Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
That says American Made!

[Shotochem]

Its quite simple.....

Due process Afghani style drag them out in the middle of a public soccer game and let the victims family slit their throat.

Works for me.....

As for feeding them pork.... I dont want to insult upstanding members of the swine comunity by lowering their standards of personal consumption;) ;) ;)

[sweeper]

" it has been shown that the only "law" that these people understand is the law of blood and fear."

Incorrect they don't fear death or torture.. that's the problem.

"if there is concrete evidence of terrorist intent then i believe "due process" should be tucked safely away in a drawer, the terrorist taken into a small,windowless room, and then let the screaming start...........respects.

I disagree. If you bypass due process than you take away people's rights. we don't have a constitutional right to due process to let us commit crimes and get away with it. we have a constitutional right to due process to make damn sure that the wrong person isn't lynched for a crime he/she didn't commit. It isn't there to protect the terrorist it is there to protect the guy that gets accused of being a terrorist but realy isn't. Once we dispence with our constitution the terrorists have won the first battle, they have taken away our freedom.

"They killed 5000 people in one shot! "Law" could take years. By then there will be more of them f***ers! Let the military take care of them. "

there will be more of them f***ers no matter what you do, giving them a trial won't change things.

Also the people who flew the planes into the buildings weren't american citizens so they wouldn't be protected by the constitution. I think it is also important to note that these people killed them selves.. They aren't going to be afraid of anything, punishment has no meaning and it will not detur future attempts.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Richard S.

...........respects.

Respects to you sir.

I do understand your anger and you opinion.
I just believe what I said above.

Respects and thank you for your opinion.

Rich

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by sweeper

" it has been shown that the only "law" that these people understand is the law of blood and fear."

Incorrect they don't fear death or torture.. that's the problem.

"if there is concrete evidence of terrorist intent then i believe "due process" should be tucked safely away in a drawer, the terrorist taken into a small,windowless room, and then let the screaming start...........respects.

I disagree. If you bypass due process than you take away people's rights. we don't have a constitutional right to due process to let us commit crimes and get away with it. we have a constitutional right to due process to make damn sure that the wrong person isn't lynched for a crime he/she didn't commit. It isn't there to protect the terrorist it is there to protect the guy that gets accused of being a terrorist but realy isn't. Once we dispence with our constitution the terrorists have won the first battle, they have taken away our freedom.

"They killed 5000 people in one shot! "Law" could take years. By then there will be more of them f***ers! Let the military take care of them. "

there will be more of them f***ers no matter what you do, giving them a trial won't change things.

Also the people who flew the planes into the buildings weren't american citizens so they wouldn't be protected by the constitution. I think it is also important to note that these people killed them selves.. They aren't going to be afraid of anything, punishment has no meaning and it will not detur future attempts.


Sweeper et al,

The Mind set that allows for the fanatic to
believe that they will obtain Life in heaven if
they die for their belief and kill as many
infidels as possible, does not allow for the
attempt of fear. As Long as they believe that
their actions can effect us then they do have
power. I do believe that we should hunt down
the Taliban and others in Afganastan and else
where. For those non citizens in other countries
that are at a state of WAR with the USA deserve
what they get for resisting.

I do not have the answer. Why do people hate me
for looking dark but not African? Why do people
hate others because they believe differently?
If I had the answer, I would give it for free
to everyone.

Best Regards and Respects to everyone.

Rich

PS: Please not that my comments are not an attack
on anyone of the Muslim Belief. The people I am
discussing here, I believe are not the true
representatives of the religion or culture.

[AvPKenpo]

Al Queda Handbook (http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/al_qaeda)

Michael

[sweeper]

I would agree with you rich, but I don't think going to war is the answer.. the problem is even though we all say we are at war and 9/11 was an act of war.. we can't realy declare war on anyone because it isn't a nation that's attacking us, it's a relativly small group of loonies.. there are gona be elements of the engagement simular to a war but alot of it is more like an FBI man hunt than a war.. unfortunately even with only one person left out of the bunch there is still potential for a major terrorist attack..

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by sweeper

I would agree with you rich, but I don't think going to war is the answer.. the problem is even though we all say we are at war and 9/11 was an act of war.. we can't realy declare war on anyone because it isn't a nation that's attacking us, it's a relativly small group of loonies.. there are gona be elements of the engagement simular to a war but alot of it is more like an FBI man hunt than a war.. unfortunately even with only one person left out of the bunch there is still potential for a major terrorist attack..

Sweeper,

I think we are on the same page, just using
different words. By War, I do not mean a
declaration of war by congress. Since WWII,
everything including the Gulf War has not been
an official War by the legal terms. I use the word
to show honor to the MEN and WOMEN who serve the
U.S.A. and put their bodies and lives in the line
of the threat. Either by a show of force of by
going in to take care of a problem.

I did not communicate this properly. For this
I Apologize. I did say non citizens, meaning
subjects or citizens of other countries whose
actions have been an act of war against the U.S.A.
and its' citizens should be our target, not the
whole country.

Now to re-address the Terrorist that was captured.
If it can be proven that he had given up
citizenship of the U.S.A. and became a citizen of
another country then he should be treated as a
war criminal. I am not sure of the options here.
Not sure if the United Nations steps in, or if
we have a treaty with the country of his
citizenship for extradition? This could tie the
whole situation up in knots, or even legally
allow him to return to another country to be
tried and/or punished.

Sorry for the Ramble.

Rich
:asian:

[Kirk]

The constitution is for the protection of American citizens, not
the world's citizens. Due process is only guaranteed within the
constitution. If the constitution were the sole document driving
us in times of war, then the geneva convention would've never
existed. We're in a conflict/war/under attack .. call it what you
may, the fact is that an attack happened on American soil. Maybe
when it's a member of YOUR family, you'll feel differently. These
people don't share our beliefs. The make love not war b.s. is for
the past. These people need a STRONG military action, if
we're ever going to prevent cowardly attacks against us from
happening again. If we get all hippy about this, and go outside
and chant or mediate, hold hands and sing Give Peace A Try, it
will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Another attack, just like 9/11 will
happen again, and again, until we set up an immediate meeting
with them and their maker. Show me a time in history when
getting out tamborines and tie dye shirts has ever stopped a
foreign country from hating us, or pointing nukes at us, or
attacking us. Flat out military power has proven itself time and
time again. Ask Qadafi, the citizens and government of Japan,
holocaust surivors, the list goes on and on.

[Kempojujutsu]

Kirk, you are right on. The only way to stop a bulley, is to punch him right in the mouth, nose or kick him in the groin. You can cry, go tell your mommy, but that bulley going to keep picking on you tell you stop him. This is no different.
Bob:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Kirk,

A little Back ground on myself.

I support our Military. I support our efforts
to stop and to capture the terrorist and to
prevent a further attack.

I have worked for Military Contractors, and I have
helped to create some of the best land based
weapons out there. I have helped to make sure
that our men in one vehicle can communicate with
other men in another type of vehicle so as to
avoid friendly fire. I have ..., .

Do I support pure research for the further
development of defense and technology? Yes I do.
Why? Almost every product I use today is either
a direct or second generation indirect product
from this type of research.

As to a family member point taken. Did I loose
a family member? No. Did I loose a close friend?
No? Did I know some of the people in the Pentagon
Building? Yes. Did I know of someone on one of
the planes? Yes. I meet 12 people before lunch
who had family members in the towers on that
fateful day. So did it effect me directly? No.
Did I see the horror it caused to other people?
Yes.

Now, I agree the Constitution is for citizens of
the U.S.A. The Geneva Convention and other
treaties cover our conduct with other countries.
I agree that some thing is needed.

Now did I say let's all get together and sing
and raise peace signs and make our good Citizens
of the Military feel sorry for serving their GREAT
country? No, I do not believe I have said any
such thing.

The original question was a U.S. Citizen captured
as one of the Terrorist, what should be the course
of action.

As for History, only the winners write history.
And as recent History goes, In Italy and Germany
it started with a small amount of civil liberties lost
to a small group of people. It turned out that
the countries then became Police states.

Now Personally, the Taliban and their supporters
all deserve death as nothing will 'teach' them
a lesson. But, do I have the right to cast that
vote/stone/verdict? I do not think so. Can I voice
my opinion so that my personal values are heard?
Yes. And once those Values are heard is it
possible that this and other issues by other
people could influence people to have a change in
ethics? Yes. Once the state of the ethical
situation has changed then either Congress or
by referendum of the PEOPLE can a law be passed.

This is how the Democratic/Republic U.S.A.
Governmental system is to work with its people.

For others we have foreign policy which is
influenced by the Peoples personal Values and what
society has determined ethical as well as our
treaties and involvement with the United Nations.

Respect to all the family and friends of those
directly and indirectly effected by the attacks
on 9/11/02.

My Apologies if I have not communicated clearly.

Rich

[Bob Hubbard]

Death does not frighten them. Fear of being caught, punished, even tortured does not deter them. Often times, they will detonate just to cause fear in the event they are found.

There is no more dangerous foe than one who is not afraid to die, and not only expects to, but welcomes death.

It is one of the things that made the Samurai a deadly foe. (no, I do not compare the terrorist to the samurai other than to say both held little fear of dying).


Sadly, for as angry as we are, disrespecting a religion is not the answer. In all truthfullness, these scum expect that, and will use that attitude to incite the next suicide bomber. Its very rarely the top dogs who do the dirty work, but often times poor, desparate and angry teens. Bring the ringleaders to justice, and solve the problems that make a 16yr old willing to die. Then, we may stop the cycle of violence.


Think about this : If they had hit Disney, or the Statue of Liberty they would have only pissed off the US. They hit 2 buildings full of people of many nations and faiths, all of whom have condemed this criminal act.

These people are following as muslim as the clinic bombers in the US are 'Christian'. Terrorists may give lip service to 1 religion or another, but the truth is, they are as far from their faith as they can get.

Peace.:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilence.


Be careful how many of your liberties you give away...some day you may look, and find you have given them all away.

[islandtime]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

[B]Since we caught one of those little S.O.B (Jose Padilla). What should we do with him.
.................................................. ...................................
Those Muslims are disrespecting the whole of their religion.


I saw Padillas attorney on CNN tonight and she said that his rights were being violated.....now there is a crock


GEne Gabel :soapbox:

[Kirk]

Rich, I didn't mean to sound like I was replying to solely you. Hell,
I wasn't replying to solely the members of this forum who've
posted here. Hope I didn't make it seem that way.

[Bod]

'The only way to deal with a bully is to punch him in the mouth.'

Perhaps. But to punch everybody who might look a bit like the bully, live in the same neighbourhood as the bully etc. etc. is kinda stupid. Even if it is easy.

I believe in violence. That's why I am a martial artist. I'm not a hippy. I'm not chanting. But I believe in intelligent violence. That's where the 'art' comes in.

Chanting 'Give peace a chance' is easy, in the short term. Hitting everybody really hard or shouting 'String all the MFs up!' is easy too. Carefully, patiently, hunting down the real culprits is difficult. But it works.

Look at how the French dealt with Morocco and the Isreali's deal with Palestine. It looks tough just bombing places flat and beating the young and old men to a pulp, but it doesn't work. I believe in going in hard but going in accurate. Easy to say I know.

The test of the American spirit is not how many people are dealt with and how fast. It will be in five, ten years time when they try to make a budget cut on the sort of long term, properly targeted, operations that finally sort out people like this.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk

Rich, I didn't mean to sound like I was replying to solely you. Hell,
I wasn't replying to solely the members of this forum who've
posted here. Hope I didn't make it seem that way.

No Problem Kirk,

As I have said before, I encourage everyone to
express their opinion here.

Thank you for yours.

Rich

[Richard S.]

Originally posted by Kirk

The constitution is for the protection of American citizens, not
the world's citizens. Due process is only guaranteed within the
constitution. If the constitution were the sole document driving
us in times of war, then the geneva convention would've never
existed. We're in a conflict/war/under attack .. call it what you
may, the fact is that an attack happened on American soil. Maybe
when it's a member of YOUR family, you'll feel differently. These
people don't share our beliefs. The make love not war b.s. is for
the past. These people need a STRONG military action, if
we're ever going to prevent cowardly attacks against us from
happening again. If we get all hippy about this, and go outside
and chant or mediate, hold hands and sing Give Peace A Try, it
will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Another attack, just like 9/11 will
happen again, and again, until we set up an immediate meeting
with them and their maker. Show me a time in history when
getting out tamborines and tie dye shirts has ever stopped a
foreign country from hating us, or pointing nukes at us, or
attacking us. Flat out military power has proven itself time and
time again. Ask Qadafi, the citizens and government of Japan,
holocaust surivors, the list goes on and on. well spoken sir. as ex military i have been in the middle east and been subjected to harassment and literally been spit on because of the cut of my uniform. im not interested in the policies or whys and wherefores that have caused this hatred toward ALL of us, what i am interested in is the fact that the terrorists have chosen to communicate with us by extremes. our reply should be even more extreme........my respects to all of you and my utmost respects for your opinions.

[sweeper]

when I was reffering to the constitution I was talking strictly about an american citizen that has been aleged of a crim, not of a citizen from another country that came here to blow something up. One should be protected (to the degree we protect all our citizens) one should be a POW.

As far as my view of the war at hand, what I meant was this conflit strategicly is fundamentaly diffrent than any military conflict of a protracted nature we have undertaken. korea, vietnam, the gulf, all of them were closer to a declared war than this.

I don't think anyone on a martial art forum is going to denounce violance.. and I don't know many peace loving hippies that practice beating people up.

[Nightingale]

personally, I hate war and hate violence. However, if war and violence must occur, I'd rather be the side dishing out than receiving.

My mom is a hippie. She was out protesting the Vietnam war and wearing daisy chains and stuff (and claims she didn't smoke any wackyweed, but I don't know if I believe her). She got quite upset that I'm dating a Marine, and completely went off on a tangent about Bush (can't say I'm too fond of that particular shrub either, but that's beside the point),violence, war, and a general tirade of government criticism. I just looked at her and said "well, if that's your opinion, you should thank all the marines and other armed forces for being out there defending your right to say that." she shut up.

:soapbox:

[Seig]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

personally, I hate war and hate violence. However, if war and violence must occur, I'd rather be the side dishing out than receiving.

My mom is a hippie. She was out protesting the Vietnam war and wearing daisy chains and stuff (and claims she didn't smoke any wackyweed, but I don't know if I believe her). She got quite upset that I'm dating a Marine, and completely went off on a tangent about Bush (can't say I'm too fond of that particular shrub either, but that's beside the point),violence, war, and a general tirade of government criticism. I just looked at her and said "well, if that's your opinion, you should thank all the marines and other armed forces for being out there defending your right to say that." she shut up.

:soapbox:
You just hit the nail on the head. I may disagree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it!:asian:

[Nightingale]

Thank you. <bow>:asian:

[Chiduce]

I'am currently taking a couple of courses on terrorism, counter-terrorism, cyberwar and netwar! You would not believe the technological breakthroughs in the way terrorist groups can wage either secretive lone non-state actor destruction and/or disruption. They can also organize in cyberspace, form a network organization which can consist of several different groups with the same doctrine and social trust & loyality. Operate with no leaders and wage swarming campaigns against nation states and their leaders, etc,; dismantle into seperate independent groups and wait for the next swarm! Our government's ability to counter their efforts will lay solely upon our understanding of these same technological capabilities. Being able to use their tactics against them successfully will depend on how our police, homeland security, military, federal, and state organizations share classified information. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Chiduce

I'am currently taking a couple of courses on terrorism, counter-terrorism, cyberwar and netwar! You would not believe the technological breakthroughs in the way terrorist groups can wage either secretive lone non-state actor destruction and/or disruption. They can also organize in cyberspace, form a network organization which can consist of several different groups with the same doctrine and social trust & loyality. Operate with no leaders and wage swarming campaigns against nation states and their leaders, etc,; dismantle into seperate independent groups and wait for the next swarm! Our government's ability to counter their efforts will lay solely upon our understanding of these same technological capabilities. Being able to use their tactics against them successfully will depend on how our police, homeland security, military, federal, and state organizations share classified information. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Chiduce,

I like what you say here. I looked into going into the FBI in the
early 90's when they just started excpeting Computer Science
degrees, instead of LAw and Accounting. The problem was that
I would have had to take 28% pay cut, and I was not even in the
top pay grades of my field. It may be different today but I doubt it.
Yes the people who do this job should want to do this job. But,
it would be easier if they matched the going rate for pay.

Sorry for the tirade, I know that many people are trying their
best.

Rich

[Nightingale]

interesting factoid:

the FBI loses approximately 50% of its work force each year. The majority of these losses are due to death, and are about evenly split between death in the line of duty and suicide.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons



Chiduce,

I like what you say here. I looked into going into the FBI in the
early 90's when they just started excpeting Computer Science
degrees, instead of LAw and Accounting. The problem was that
I would have had to take 28% pay cut, and I was not even in the
top pay grades of my field. It may be different today but I doubt it.
Yes the people who do this job should want to do this job. But,
it would be easier if they matched the going rate for pay.

Sorry for the tirade, I know that many people are trying their
best.

Rich I see your point about the pay scale. you will not get rich at an FBI Job. However, it will open the doors to the lecture circuit, university lectures etc,. I was in intelligence, in my military field and we were considered agents or the other word (Spies). Since you work have worked with defense contractors, you may have some knowledge of the Pershing I and II Missiles! 400 megaton warhead with reentry guidance to target. Upon impact to ground zero the giant mushroom cloud forms, the fireball upon impact kills everthing within a 400 mile radius and then radiation sets in! Great pieces of work for defense. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

interesting factoid:

the FBI loses approximately 50% of its work force each year. The majority of these losses are due to death, and are about evenly split between death in the line of duty and suicide. I would just like to add that the present new FBI top dog is a woman. The first female in the history of the bureau. Maybe she can bring about some positive change in this troubled area of retirement concern. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!