Would you go to the ground in a self-defence situation? Even vs a non martial artist?

-Bushido

The only way I would go to the is if I was force to go. If I tried some kind of throw/sweep and they pull or push me down, I am making sure they come with me. Don't want them standing on top of me.

Bob Thomas :D

I think it depends on the situation. For the most part, I think it could be dangerous to try to go to the ground intentionally, but sometimes one has no choice (e.g. icy ground, getting pulled down). That's one reason I practice my throws and such with my opponent resisting. I find that my throws must be much cleaner and accurate to avoid being taken down when I don't want to. Also, when I do fall down when my partner pull me down, I can practice what to do from there.

Bryan

If I was losing the fight standing - sure.

To me, the only problem would be the people around. Grappling on the streets, NO problem but people around kicking my head...scary!

-Bushido :samurai:

There was a saying when I signed up for Kenpo lessons. I can paraphrase it by saying that the way we kick people in the head in Kenpo is to take them down so that their head is near your foot.

I would go to the ground only if I had to. If I get thrown or taken down I try to get up as fast as I can.

But we have some good follow-up/following strikes to execute as/when/after we do takedowns in Kenpo. So I would do those but then get off/get away because if the guy is not finished he is probably strong and if he is stronger than me, I don't want to grapple and I especially don't want to grapple on the ground (where I can't do a sweep or takedown). And I especially don't want to "let" someone take me to the ground because if they are trying to do it they might be good/skilled at it and be better there than I am. I have very, very few ground fighting "skills."

So, no. I would not go to the ground if I could help it, or unless I was Certain that I could restrain the non-martial artist and either defeat/demoralize him there, or choke him out and leave him there.

Some of the harimau Silat I have seen is very good at striking from the ground (say, after a throw), then getting back up. I was visiting my friend's school (which is affiliated with Cass Magda, so big into Silat), and I was impressed at how they positioned themselves after being thrown or swept. It was an "awareness" throughout the whole process of being thrown and being able to put oneself in a defensible position to strike from laying and kneeling positions.

Also, in my class we practice takedowns against strikes. We put helmets on, then try to slip or duck a jab and do a tackle or double/single leg takedown. It is hard, as my partner really tries to nail me when I come in, but it can be done. In any case, I see someone in a real fight maybe diving in for a tackle, taking one or two shots, and being able to pull someone down, so I think it is important to be versed in all ranges to some degree.

Cheers,
Bryan

Originally posted by Bushido

Would you go to the ground in a self-defence situation? Even vs a non martial artist?

-Bushido

That really depends. I wouldn't seek the situation. But if I had no choice then the answer is obvious.

/Yari

One on one where I was sure no-one was around yes. My ground fighting is good enough. But I'd rather throw them on the ground.

I think I need to practise getting off of someone when I am in the mount - necessary if you've thrown someone a bit messily in a multiple opponent situation.

Originally posted by Bod

One on one where I was sure no-one was around yes.

My BJJ instructor emphasizes this concern--you don't want to go to the groun din a bar where not only is there stuff on the ground and stuff that could be used to hit you (e.g. a chair) but where your opponent's friends can kick you in the head.

Definitely, it's a last resort against a truly superior stand-up fighter or a person who tries a take-down and succeeds. You need to know something about it, but it shouldn't be the first move in a non-competition setting.

Yes, the main problem with grappling in a self-defence situation is the people around. Like you said, one-on-one, no problem, but someone can come out and bang your head.

Dangerous situation!

-Bushido :samurai:

Most of the time actually. Whether I knock them down or take them down, I do want my opponent on the ground. Although it'd probably be knee-on-stomach versus other positions.

Probably never use the guard except if I had a guillotine really locked in.

[B]Would you go to the ground in a self-defence situation? Even vs a non martial artist?

Only if taken down to begin with and then my objective is to get back up.
Dan

Originally posted by bscastro

In any case, I see someone in a real fight maybe diving in for a tackle, taking one or two shots, and being able to pull someone down, so I think it is important to be versed in all ranges to some degree.

Cheers,
Bryan

Absolutely right. I would prefer to err on the side of being better standing up as the perils of being on the ground are well-represented here.

Great thread.

Was watching ESPN the other night, and they had several baseball brawls for the year. Quest what most of these brawls went to the ground before everyone piled on to end the fight. You can say you will never go to the ground. But you better have some concept of what to do if you do go. Wrestling/ Grappling what ever you want to call it is world's oldest sport next to maybe racing. It is a natural human respones.
Bob :asian:

Yes, I fond that too, grappling IS a natural response.

-Bushido

Although grappling may be a natural response, and I am an advocate of being versed on the ground, I think it is important to try to stay standing often because of multiple-attackers, weapons, and environment. There are many factors to consider when going to the ground. however, as mentioned many times before, it may not be a choice whether to go to the ground or not.

Cheers,
Bryan

When I refer to grappling, the first stage is the stand-up version of it. You have to be able to strike, throw, choke or lock someone up. Yes I would prefer not to go to the ground and you be know how to do stand-up grappling to prevent from doing ground grappling.
Bob:asian:

Was reading the paper tonight. Some idiot Went in to some wine resturant with 3 guns, samurai sword and bottle of kerosene. He was planing on killing everyone till two women, one was a waitress jump on the guy and tackle him. I believe this took place around New York City.
Bob:asian:

id wouldnt go down. ofcourse there are methods of ground fighing, but to go down voluntarily is very risky

Only way I go to the ground is if I get thrown,wrestled,kicked or sweeped to the ground.I'd rather fight stand up(Using Muay Thai Kickboxing),especially since I'm tall and have the reach.If I happen to be taken to the ground then fine I will grapple from there as best as I can since I know Submission Wrestling as well as MuayThai Kickboxing.

It is more important to practice how to get up, than how to get down ! :D

I sincerely think that there is no good answer, it really depend on the situation. Each situation is different and required a different answer.

Self-defense is not totally white, or totally black.


-Bushido

I would go to the ground, if and only if the attacker was thrown, tripped -up etc, and i was finishing with a knee to the high ribs, solar plexus, sternum, neck, shoulder, clavicle, or floating ribs.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

One on one
We are going to the ground i am strong on the ground from all the AJW i have done, judo.jujitsu wrestling etc ,.
Ground and pound or choke out or armbar submition etc
Fast and quick , I am also a strong standing fighter so i choose to start the fight standing. with kicks punches elbows knees, other good moves. Then go for a throw and a takedown, It works on almost everyone. besides people better at grappling then me.:jediduel:

As someone pointed out, most fights go to the ground... probably every one I've seen actually. In most cases I don't think you have a choice. If someone wants to go the ground he is almost certain to succeed.

Originally posted by Bushido

I sincerely think that there is no good answer, it really depend on the situation. Each situation is different and required a different answer.

Self-defense is not totally white, or totally black.


-Bushido

This is one of those, "what would you do if..." questions which really becomes moot because we don't know what situations we will be in. However, I think the replies have been very interesting. I think martial artists should try to train as realistically as possible in as many different situations. I think realistic (within safety) sparring will show that many times a person doesn't have a choice about going to the ground. However, I think also that those who think it would go to the ground easily against someone who doesn't want it to will also find that it is not so easy against a good striker.

Good training to all,
Bryan

Most of us when we grapple they are done on mats. Have you tried grappling on rocks, concret. Typically when or if you have to grapple someone for self defense. Do you what to be laying on your back having done the Gracie flop, because you are really great at grappling. The answer is probably no. This is real life situation where anything can happen. It's not like a video game where if you goof you can start over, or a UFC match where the ref jumps in because you are over matched. If the guy is better than you, you are at his mercy. If he whats to just mess you up a little, at lease you live another day. But DEAD is DEAD there are no do overs, I wasn't ready. So when or if you decide to go to the ground you better make damn sure that you are going to get up from the ground and not buried in the ground.
Bob :soapbox:

Since every situation is different, I would have to say that I don't really know. In my adult life I have only had to defend myself once, and it was over pretty quick.

What do you do if you go to the ground and your opponent starts sticking a knife in you? I guess the best thing would be to avoid situations where violence could occur.

Totally depends on the situation. If someone tried to fight me on a bus and yes, this did happen, I didn't grapple at all. Well, I'm a striker for the most part but do like ground-fighting and I wouldn't hesitate to take another striker to the ground. However, if I was fighting a grappler, I would strike him.

Never box a boxer, never wrestle a wrestler... That is if you have more skill than him like if you're wrestling a guy who wrestled for one day and thinks he's king but you shouldn't give him a chance to show you his skills. :p

Sure most fights end up on the ground- because the loser normaly falls down while the winner follows him to finish it.


I would not go to the ground if I could help it. One on one fights rarely happen any more with gang stomping a normal occorence in most cities. While I am breaking the guys arm his buddy puts a steel toe to my dome. Also If someone pulls a knife while we are rolling on the ground I wouldn't be able to see it easily nor can I create distance quickly.

With all that said, one must prepare to fight on the ground. If you don't you will end up there. I stress control of your opponet on the ground and escapes but leave the submission stuff (beside some chokes and a couple others that can be done standing as well) for Judo night.

Tony

In Aug.2001 i was at a party
Wooooooooooooooooooooo

Any way to of my friends started to get
a little out of hand with one striking the other
I jumped between & tried to play peace maker

Well one took a swing at me i ducked it
And did a body lock takedown to cross side
i did not want to hurt him since we were & are friends

So i held him untill he ran out of gas
been drunk this took a little under a minute

And not long after he passed out
So by takeing the confrintation to the ground
i was abel to pertect my self
And did not have to hurt him

:asian:
Primo

Yeah, but you could have achieved the same effect with a wrist-lock into a hammerlock. Taking him down might have hurt him if, for example, he'd landed on broken glass.

When fighting, I will always pick standing over groundwork, despite the fact that I have trained for years in groundfighting. Should I get knocked down and be in a groundwork situation, I will use fish-hooks, eye gouges, etc to get to my feet again. If my opponent is on the floor, I don't need to get down there with him to finish him off. He can't guard everywhere at once, and even if he does, I can break an arm/wrist without putting myself in too much additional danger.....

Ageis 1 this was a backyard paty! (on the Grass)
2 He waz & still is a friend of mine.

2 hurt him would have been eaysy!
I used my ground skill to subdo him
with out have to put on a lock.

I am verry good at Submissons
I have used them mpre time to count.

My situation was with a friend
i've had for the 17-18 years of my life.
Alcohol was speaking when he took that swing.

If he was not a friend the out come
Would have been different

I train to fight this is what i do
Sport yes but if U think just because
A person trains for the sport.

He or She can not adapet to the
Reality of the Streets

U are dead wrong!
:armed:
Good Stuff

Originally posted by ace

Ageis 1 this was a backyard paty! (on the Grass)
2 He waz & still is a friend of mine.........

All I was saying is that for restraining someone, a standup lock is likely to cause less harm than a takedown. A wrist lock would simply be a method of getting into a restraining lock, such as a hammerlock, where your friend could have scremed/fought/cursed/etc to his heart's content without any risk to either of you.

Hell, I've thrown people around at parties too, but that was for fun and was with people I've trained with in the past and who know how to breakfall.

My only criticism of the method was that somethign could have been in the path of the landing, not that it was. If I'm throwing friends about (as I mentioned above) I make sure the ground is clear. Against an attack I wouldn't be able to stop and check, so an attack by a friend would be met with a standing lock, while an unknown attacker would be hurled onto the floor with no regard for his safety.

*bows out*

U have a good point. No dout.
But it was my natural reaction.
:armed:
Good Stuff

well if i was on the grouond i would probably try to get out of the sistuation as fast as i could and try to escape i think that is the best way to if not the other answer is obvious.
mysti
:yinyang:

I do a lot on the ground but in a street situation I don't want to go down. If I have to, I want to close quick which means a supline in the school would turn into a dislocation in the street.

Almost without exeption every fight I have seen lately both guys have buddies taking pot shots during the fight. The other thing is one on one, going to the ground and the other guy comes up with a knife. Knifes and grappling is a tough mix. Most disarms and counter I know are standing, tring them on your back would not be good.

The Aikido guys do multiple attackers and their whole concept is to stay up.