I will try to do my best to keep up with the technique of the week theme. This technique is not in my curriculum but I do know this one. Alternating Maces is not on my computer so there's no breakdown on each individual move for me to post. What are everybody's ideas, thoughts, likes, or dislikes of this technique? Does anyone have any variations they like? Let's get the talk rolling.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

Here's how I was taught it when I first got into kenpo....

1. Slide your left foot to 6 to form a right neutral bow facing 12 with a right inward block to attackers left arm at or below the elbow.

2. As you shift to a right forward bow lay your right forearm across attackers arms checking them with a left vertical punch to the solar plexus.

3. Shifting back to a right neutral bow, crane hook the back of the left arm and as your pulling the attacker and pivoting to the neutral, hit with a right back knuckle to the temple.


How close am I?


:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93

Here's how I was taught it when I first got into kenpo....

1. Slide your left foot to 6 to form a right neutral bow facing 12 with a right inward block to attackers left arm at or below the elbow.

2. As you shift to a right forward bow lay your right forearm across attackers arms checking them with a left vertical punch to the solar plexus.

3. Shifting back to a right neutral bow, crane hook the back of the left arm and as your pulling the attacker and pivoting to the neutral, hit with a right back knuckle to the temple.


How close am I?


:asian:


the 12 and 6 lines disects your body so as your right side will be on the 3 side and your left will be on the 9 side... if you step back to 6 you may be closer to a fighting horse. Not good cancels your own width. For the nuetral bow your step/slide might go to 7 or 7:30.

:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman


if you step back to 6 you may be closer to a fighting horse. Not good cancels your own width. For the nuetral bow your step/slide might go to 7 or 7:30.


I'm not trying to be picky here, but that would depend on how you're stepping back, and how you were standing in the first place.

This technique starts from a "natural" standing position, not an attention stance.

If you step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock, then pivot into your neutral bow won't find yourself in a horse stance.

I feel that if you step to 7/7.30 then youalter your angles and not be on your attackers centerline.

Les

Originally posted by Les



I'm not trying to be picky here, but that would depend on how you're stepping back, and how you were standing in the first place.

This technique starts from a "natural" standing position, not an attention stance.

If you step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock, then pivot into your neutral bow won't find yourself in a horse stance.

I feel that if you step to 7/7.30 then youalter your angles and not be on your attackers centerline.

Les

:rolleyes: Book 2 page 34 published in 1983 by Ed Parker. If you don't have Infinite Insights books I would suggest you purchase them they are full of the basic stuff and are the best reference material that I have seen.:eek:

Originally posted by Rainman


Book 2 page 34 published in 1983 by Ed Parker. If you don't have Infinite Insights books I would suggest you purchase them they are full of the basic stuff and are the best reference material that I have seen.

Thanks for that, Rainman, the information contained on pages 33 to 36 of Infinite Insights Vol 2 is indeed very useful. (I do have the full set)

However, understanding the clock principle does not alter the fact that if you step towards 7.30 you have changed the;

Angle of Deflection
Angle of Entry
Angle of Incidence

In Alternating Maces, the technique is designed to dominate your opponents centerline. It's my feeling that if you step to 7.30 you are restricting your access to the opponents centerline.

Of course, it's only my opinion,

Les

Here is how we teach Alternating maces..

2. ALTERNATING MACES (front- two handed push)
1. With your feet together, and as your opponent pushes you, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right
neutral bow stance, facing 12:00, while simultaneously executing a right inward block to the outside of your
opponent's left arm, while your left hand cocks to your left hip.
2. Immediately collapse your right arm across the lop of both of your opponent's arms (to act as a check), as you
deliver a left vertical thrust punch to your opponent's sternum or solar plexus, while torquing into a right forward bow
stance. Remember both stance change and punch must work in synchronization with each other in order to maximize
the force of the punch.
3. Have your left hand (after the punch, shift palm open and down) on top of both your opponent's arms (to check)
while simultaneously having your right hand rapidly travel inside of your left arm and out into a right outward back
knuckle strike to the right temple of your opponent, while pivoting back into a right neutral bow stance. (The torque
stemming from the stance change will greatly increase the whipping action of your right hand).
4. Immediately have your right hand snap back into a checking position.


Yesterday we were at a Tri-state Karate Tournament where a Kenpo Stylist 4th Dan was doing his Self defense technique.. Crisp, clean and very pretty. Nothing over a brown technique .. a Variation on Leap of Death and lo' and behold.. ALternating Maces.. His speed was awesome and it was devastating technique.. his uke was excellently trained ..
Alternating Maces maybe a beginner technique on paper.. but I can see it would cause some major damage!

It's also very effective in sparring against various atatcks!

Originally posted by KenpoTess


Alternating Maces maybe a beginner technique on paper.. but I can see it would cause some major damage!

Just for fun, try inserting a right outward back-knuckle strike to the face straight after the block. (Use your opponents arm to launch this strike without any loss of momentum)

Your opponent is still coming forward from his pushing action, and this strike will cause his head to snap back, making the solar plexus an even more available target.

Les

Originally posted by Les



Thanks for that, Rainman, the information contained on pages 33 to 36 of Infinite Insights Vol 2 is indeed very useful. (I do have the full set)

However, understanding the clock principle does not alter the fact that if you step towards 7.30 you have changed the;

Angle of Deflection
Angle of Entry
Angle of Incidence

In Alternating Maces, the technique is designed to dominate your opponents centerline. It's my feeling that if you step to 7.30 you are restricting your access to the opponents centerline.

Of course, it's only my opinion,

Les

Your centerline is the middle of the clock if you step to six you are stepping to where your spine was and you cross your own centerline. Too much time- the reverse punch has to stop momentum otherwise the opponent will be on you. You need to be open to the point where the reverse punch will stop a committed push. IN the first movements the right inward diagonal downward block will check width and the opponents body may slightly move to your left. If you put your left foot on the six the stop hit from the reverse punch to his centerline will not be in optimal alignment- You will not have proper body mechanics and you will not stop a committed action. ;)

I can see where stepping to 7 would put you on their centerline, but it looks like your moving into the right arm of the attack. If you just step back to 6 you extend the attack causing them to be a little off balance. Eh, maybe? Just a rookie you know.



:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93

I can see where stepping to 7 would put you on their centerline, but it looks like your moving into the right arm of the attack. If you just step back to 6 you extend the attack causing them to be a little off balance. Eh, maybe? Just a rookie you know.



:asian:

On this particular tek zone cancellation by contact penetration is kind of a primary idea. Striking the left arm diagonally down will turn him slightly cancelling width and keeping the right away. It will also bring him into you (borrowed force) at an accelerated pace. Your left will aid in opposing forces by being brought to solar plexus for "1/4" beat timing into the reverse punch. Ba-bang pop is the timing signature I use for intermediates and down. The strike to the "sternum" is multipurposeful.

:asian:

What principles is this technique designed to teach?

Rainman named one, Borrowed force from the attacker "walking" into the left punch.

Cancelling the height zone from checking the arms with your right arm should be one.

Torque from you unwinding into the neutral bow with the back knuckle.

Help!!!


:asian:

I named more than that- width- path(diagonal down for block)-acceleration- I told yall about wasted motion (hand to solar plexus Vs. hip) If it is not wasted it is economical providing it hits the target with power etc. Contact Penetraition is the 3rd range.



:asian:

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

I will try to do my best to keep up with the technique of the week theme. This technique is not in my curriculum but I do know this one. Alternating Maces is not on my computer so there's no breakdown on each individual move for me to post. What are everybody's ideas, thoughts, likes, or dislikes of this technique? Does anyone have any variations they like? Let's get the talk rolling.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

2. ALTERNATING MACES: (front - two-handed attempted push)

1. Standing naturally, and as your opponent attempts to push you, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow stance (facing 12:00). Simultaneously execute a right inward block while your left hand SLAP-CHECKS at your right shoulder. (Interlocking circles)

2. Immediately collapse your right arm, and deliver a right HAMMERING STRIKE to your opponent's upper right forearm near the bend of his arm, below the biceps. Then Immediately BOUNCE your SLAPPING CHECK into a left NATURAL punch (tracking over your right arm) to your opponent's ZYPHOID PROCESS at CV-16. This is done while pivoting into a right forward bow stance. Remember both the stance change and punch must work in synchronization with each other in order to maximize the force of your left punch. Immediately convert your left punch into a SLAPPING CHECK at the right shoulder as you simultaneously raise your right arm to an outward elbow position GCM. PAUSE

3. Deliver a right outward back-fist strike to base of your opponent's right ear. This is done from your right neutral bow stance with BODY MOMENTUM.

4. Execute your right leg crossover toward 7:00 WITH your right hand snapping back, and cover out facing your opponent in an on guard position in a neutral bow stance. Executed properly, this sequence should render unconsciousness.

Timing & Breathing Signature™: 1,2 P 3 C
GCM Signature™: G 1 G 2 G 3 G 4

Originally posted by Doc



2. ALTERNATING MACES: (front - two-handed attempted push)

1. Standing naturally, and as your opponent attempts to push you, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow stance (facing 12:00). Simultaneously execute a right inward block while your left hand SLAP-CHECKS at your right shoulder. (Interlocking circles)



Timing & Breathing Signature™: 1,2 P 3 C
GCM Signature™: G 1 G 2 G 3 G 4

I don't get how the slap ck is used... now I understand the notes for the gcm... pretty cool. I also dont get the numbers though for either. TH17 for the BK? I think it is around 7 for the ball of the foot 6:30 (my bad folks) by the time you finish pivoting into the left nuetral bow and where the heel ends up. If you could use planes, points or degrees I could understand path, rebound and return I think a little more clearly.

:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman



I don't get how the slap ck is used... now I understand the notes for the gcm... pretty cool. I also dont get the numbers though for either. TH17 for the BK? I think it is around 7 for the ball of the foot 6:30 (my bad folks) by the time you finish pivoting into the left nuetral bow and where the heel ends up. If you could use planes, points or degrees I could understand path, rebound and return I think a little more clearly.

:asian:

TH or TW-17 same thing. The rest is in a state of flux. You cannot apply strict Newtonian Physical principles all the time to a living and breathing multiple interactive dynamic that changes from microsecond to microsecond. All things are relative to self and to each other.

Slapchecks are inherent in Advanced Kenpo, however they must be strictly taught. Executed incorrectly they can have a diasterously detrimental effect to oneself in combat. Sorry you don't understand. Don't attempt to micromanage footwork. It is the ultimate variable.

Originally posted by Doc



TH or TW-17 same thing. The rest is in a state of flux. You cannot apply strict Newtonian Physical principles all the time to a living and breathing multiple interactive dynamic that changes from microsecond to microsecond. All things are relative to self and to each other.

Slapchecks are inherent in Advanced Kenpo, however they must be strictly taught. Executed incorrectly they can have a diasterously detrimental effect to oneself in combat. Sorry you don't understand. Don't attempt to micromanage footwork. It is the ultimate variable.

I understand some things are just too complicated for this medium... However football is a game of inches, so is my idea of Kenpo which is becoming fractional in some areas. The more precise I get the better and easier it is to execute. Seemingly in my small world the variables are dwindling .That is just my interpretation at this point on the giant evolutional wheel of personal developement.

:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman



I understand some things are just too complicated for this medium... However football is a game of inches, so is my idea of Kenpo which is becoming fractional in some areas. The more precise I get the better and easier it is to execute. Seemingly in my small world the variables are dwindling .That is just my interpretation at this point on the giant evolutional wheel of personal developement.

:asian:

I agree. The medium just doesn't allow for a true understanding of what must be proven physically ever so subtlely. One day face to face one on one I'll make your eyes bigger.;)

I was reading back a bit and saw some of the principles that were mentioned.

Let us not forget Opposing Forces: after the forward bow "with" the vertical punch - utilizing opposing forces, shift back into the neutral as you deliver the snapping back-knuckle strike to the Temple - or whatever target is available -

In reading what many are writing - I like what I see; however, I can relate to getting caught up in the web of obsessing on a particular move and the exact angles. Remeber: sometimes a crescent wrench works better / sometimes a socket works better / and sometimes a standard wrench works better - it is all in what results one would like to see - and which tool "THEY" can utilize most effectively. Application, Application, Application -

I think if one can back up a variation with logic/sound priciples/precision - and make it work - good for them.

Take it easy :)

That's quite a description Dr. Chap'el. Thank you for posting this along with the discussion. Although I don't understand all of this but I will try with practice, trial and error.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

I agree. The medium just doesn't allow for a true understanding of what must be proven physically ever so subtlely. One day face to face one on one I'll make your eyes bigger.

Well you will have to give me some contact info- I hear you are hard to find:rofl:

:asian:


Remeber: sometimes a crescent wrench works better / sometimes a socket works better / and sometimes a standard wrench works better -

I prefer Snap On- Crescent adjustable wrenches are for hacks. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Doc




Timing & Breathing Signature™: 1,2 P 3 C
GCM Signature™: G 1 G 2 G 3 G 4

Doc,

What are Timing & Breathing Signature?
What's GCM Signature?

Are these newly updated to the material? I don't see them in the literature you gave me a while back. Or are they part of the progression of the sytem that wasn't in the literature before?

Question: At one point we spoke of CMA, how would that apply to a technique like Alternating Maces?

jb:asian:

:confused:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:confused:

Naw,

Back when I visited Doc he metioned control manipulation alternatives (cma's)....that's all.

jb:asian:

:eek:

The Lone Armadillo in on the subject:rofl:

If you notice he isn't posting anything here! He's rolling around trying to find the brakes......

:rofl:

Who cut his lines?

he thought they were shoestrings.....
:rofl:

Alternating Maces is a sentimental favorite of mine. One night when I was teaching I said that some techniques flat don't work in "slow motion" and what do you know, we came to Alternating Maces. So one of the students still didn't believe this worked and I said "OK, front, two-hand low push, I'll show you." So he came in and I didn't move. He was perplexed. I said "You must attack properly or this won't work in the Ideal Phase which is what you are asking about." So he comes at me again and I shuffle back. He is perplexed again. I said "I want to make sure you are coming for real. Do it just like that again. So he did and BAM! I nailed him on the reverse punch. I was using control but he Impaled himself. I stopped to see that he was OK and then finished the backfist and crossed out. He was a believer. I said "See." He was totally unhurt, but he felt and he believed. I turned around at that point to see that Mr. Duffy had been standing there for some time. This was shortly after he assigned me a class of my own, so I guess he was observing. He had a big smile on his face. I was very happy.

The variation I taught was the one posted by KenpoTess.

I don't understand the timing and breathing and signature notes that Dr. Chapel posted. Like Jason said "What are Timing & Breathing Signature? What's GCM Signature?"

I also have only been introduced to Slap Checks by Mr. Parker Jr. I can repeat the demo he did on me, but I am not confident that I totally understand what is going on. Where is this material elaborated on more fully? Is there a book or video? I'm only a Brown Belt of course, but I am curious. When I signed up back originally there was all that "Slap Art" stuff going around but it was never demystified for me. Mr. Kelly explained it once at camp but it was not the same explanation I have heard elsewhere if I understood him correctly.

Dr. Chapel, could you elaborate for us? Thank you.
:asian:

Excerpt from an in-progress article


In the beginning on the mainland when Ed Parker began studying with many Chinese Masters, he taught Kenpo from more of the traditional Chinese perspective. This prompted his first book “Secrets of Chinese Karate.” The Chinese Arts were unknown to the American Public and Ed Parker was attempting to show the roots of “Karate” were from the Chinese. During this time, the “slap-check” or “pak-sao” in Chinese, was a natural part of his personal interpretation of his art.

Film and video from the late sixties on demonstrate Ed Parker always slapped checked in his technique execution. However he never explained why nor did he ever write anything on the subject. This should give pause to those that think Infinite Insight contains all the knowledge of Ed Parker. It also suggests there was, at the least, other information that was not being generally dessiminated to so-called close students.

Infinite Insights philosophically explains the conceptual commercial art he called Motion-Kenpo, obviously because it is motion based. But students of this art must remember there was no Motion-Kenpo before the early seventies, and many seniors like Dave Hebler or Chuck Sullivan learned Kenpo from a different perspective long before Motion-Kenpo existed. Therefore it should not be much of a stretch to suggest the previous versions of his art (that contained the Slap-Check) existed concurrently with his commercial version(s) until he died. especially since he never stopped Slap-Checking.

In his transition to his commercial art, American Motion-Kenpo, the Slap-Check virtually disappeared from his teachings and writings as well. Although he still utilized it in his own execution, he did not teach it or ever explain its use in any detail. Many of his later students would attempt to mimic him not realizing when where and how you “slap” yourself can have a profound positive or negative effect. Student misuse of the “slap-check” they didn’t understand is what gave Kenpo its derisive nick name from traditionalist as, “the slap art.”

In the Chinese Combat Science, the Slap-Check (Pak Sao) is used in part essentially as it was used by Ed Parker in the early days. Its other related concepts are Lop-Sao (blocking hand), and the Chi-Sao (sticking hand). Most in “Motion-Kenpo” are unaware of its existence and only a few attempt to mimic Ed Parker’s use of them, but are unaware of their depth or how they actually function.

The reason for the lack of knowledge for such a important part of American Kenpo comes from Mr. Parker’s decision to begin, by personal preference and necessity, to teach a “motion based concept.” This motion component does not utilize the Slap-Check and was abandoned by Mr. Parker in his teachings in the sixties, in favor of a more interpretive and less strict in-formal style of Kenpo, that emphasized “Positional Checks,” over the Pak-Sao.

Unfortunately, even then, students of Ed Parker attempted to mimic Mr. Parker’s use of the Slap-Check. Their mis-understanding is the origin of the term “slap art.” Some of the non-Chinese traditionalist didn’t understand it, along with Ed Parker’s students who attempting to mimic their teacher, mis-applied it because a lack of instruction............

this methodology is in fact taught as a specific component of execution in Sub-Level Four Kenpo of American Kenpo. In fact, you cannot get to the higher levels of Kenpo in general unless you have been properly taught why, how, when, and where to Slap-Check. Where you Slap-Check is important because if you strike yourself at the wrong place at the wrong time, you make yourself susceptible to injury as you interrupt your own energy. I’ve seen a couple of well-known Kenpoists do this incorrectly......................................

Purely on a mechanical level it is important to the “balance” of the body that neither side be “Passive in its Execution of Movement. As an example, when you walk, you use both sides of your body in opposition to create a “balanced movement.” Did you ever try running real fast with your hands in your pocket?

Although in many way mechanical, anatomical, etc, the most intriguing aspect is how it forms the basis for simple energy transference from one side of the body to the other. When executed in conjunction with proper anatomical movement, internal energy is harnessed and moved within the confines of the overall circuit (the human body) and can actually be concentrated in one part of the body to bolster or provide substantial support. The simplest form of this is simply moving energy from one side of your centerline (conception vessel) to the other..........

Because of the complexity of its use, it is not necessarily something that can be interjected into a persons training except on a case by case physical application basis. Its use is quite specific and its misuse can have explicit complications. It is designed in SubLevel-4 to be taught in conjunction with the methodology of the specific application technique. Taken out of context it will not necessarily yield the same benefits or results, and can have as significant negative impact on its user. In other words, it is part of the overall process that it must be taught to yield consistently positive results from created energy..........................................

Thank you Dr. Chapel,

I will look forward to seeing more of this somehow.

As Mr. Speakman said in The Perfect Weapon:

"It never hurts to ask."

:asian:

Originally posted by cdhall

Thank you Dr. Chapel,

I will look forward to seeing more of this somehow.

As Mr. Speakman said in The Perfect Weapon:

"It never hurts to ask."

:asian:

Replying to Doc and inserting a Speakman quote....hee,hee :rofl:

You really do need to meet him....

Doc,

What about my questions?:D

jb:asian:

tsk tsk.....

shaking head......:rofl:

.Infinite Insights philosophically explains the conceptual commercial art he called Motion-Kenpo, obviously because it is motion based. But students of this art must remember there was no Motion-Kenpo before the early seventies, and many seniors like Dave Hebler or Chuck Sullivan learned Kenpo from a different perspective long before Motion-Kenpo existed. Therefore it should not be much of a stretch to suggest the previous versions of his art (that contained the Slap-Check) existed concurrently with his commercial version(s) until he died. especially since he never stopped Slap-Checking.


Yep and I didn't even know they were called that... Thanks for laying that out the way you did.

:asian:

To me, Alternating Maces is a center-line defense against a center-line attack; an attacker using his/her entire body mass behind their two arms. I may be wrong on this, but once the inner forearm block is executed, instead of going directly to a right neutral bow, I tend to settle into a horse stance. As soon as my right arm has checked over the oppenent's two, my body easily swivels into the right neutral bow, also giving the vertical punch a little more 'oomph.' And like Sensei Seigel said, this technique is greatly appreciated in some sparring situations, hell, he's used it me.

Originally posted by cdhall

I will look forward to seeing more of this somehow.




Doug,

The day you meet Doc you'll be face to face with one of the smartest men in Kenpo out there. He sent me a copy of his updated yellow info and it's even further advanced than the stuff I got a year or two ago. To paraphrase his info...

The Timing Signature(tm) is designed to set the rhythmic pattern that will insure the techniques destructive sequence timing is observed.

The Breathing Signature(tm) forces students to breath in the appropriate manner with a technique sequence.

The GCM (tm) is the Grappling Control Mechanism....I'll let him explain more if he chooses to in public.

All three have more info, but I don't feel like typing any more and if Doc wants to elaborate he will.

jb:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman



I prefer Snap On- Crescent adjustable wrenches are for hacks. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry. I was contacted when you posted this. There are 2 numbers on my site you can use and leave a call back. I love to talk to people about Mr. parker's works.

Originally posted by jbkenpo




Doug,

The day you meet Doc you'll be face to face with one of the smartest men in Kenpo out there. He sent me a copy of his updated yellow info and it's even further advanced than the stuff I got a year or two ago. To paraphrase his info...

The Timing Signature(tm) is designed to set the rhythmic pattern that will insure the techniques destructive sequence timing is observed.

The Breathing Signature(tm) forces students to breath in the appropriate manner with a technique sequence.

The GCM (tm) is the Grappling Control Mechanism....I'll let him explain more if he chooses to in public.

All three have more info, but I don't feel like typing any more and if Doc wants to elaborate he will.

jb:asian:

You're too kind JB, but I know why. Its your turn to buy.

Originally posted by Chronuss

To me, Alternating Maces is a center-line defense against a center-line attack; an attacker using his/her entire body mass behind their two arms. I may be wrong on this, but once the inner forearm block is executed, instead of going directly to a right neutral bow, I tend to settle into a horse stance. As soon as my right arm has checked over the oppenent's two, my body easily swivels into the right neutral bow, also giving the vertical punch a little more 'oomph.' And like Sensei Seigel said, this technique is greatly appreciated in some sparring situations, hell, he's used it me.

You punch from a neutral bow?

Originally posted by Doc



You punch from a neutral bow?


Yeah what he said?!?!?! Could you explain using a nuetral bow here???