The Roles and Rights of a Martial Arts Instructor

[Matt Stone]

In another thread discussing multiple instructors in one school, the issue was brought up regarding the role(s) and rights of a martial arts instructor.

Points were made dealing with an instructor's assumed "responsibility" for the actions of his/her students both in and out of class, as well as the counterpoint that the instructor's "responsibility" ended at the dojo door and that the student was solely responsible for his/her behavior (not the teacher).

Further, discussion dealt with the assumption that some martial arts instructors make regarding just what they have a right to do. Some instructors believe they are in a position to hand out advice, guidance, etc., in an effort to guide the life choices of the student. Others believe that the instructor should stick to what they know - martial arts - and not pass out advice in any context other than that of any other family member, friend, etc., i.e. as someone a little older and a little more experienced; the point being that a martial arts instructor is not inherently more qualified to guide the lives of his/her students than anyone else, though many seem to believe they are.

What are your feelings and opinions on this?

Further, should the instructor attempt to mold the student's behavior into an example of the cultural rules and traditions of the country from which the art arose? For example, should an American who is a Japanese karate teacher encourage his/her students to behave according to Japanese etiquette and traditions beyond that required within class context (like concepts of "face," "honor debts," etc.)? Also, should the teacher recommend that the student keep such ideals in mind outside of class, and having such ideal influence the behavior of the student, even when such ideals are alien to the student's native culture?

Enjoy.

[Sin]

My school follows the RyuKyu Dojo Motto, sometimes at the beginning of class sensei will ask someone what a certian phrase in the Dojo motto means to them, I.E. To develop a respectful attitude. We define respect and who to and how to show respect. This is just one of the ways we keep our morals in line as Martial Artists

[lvwhitebir]

an instructor's assumed "responsibility" for the actions of his/her students both in and out of class, as well as the counterpoint that the instructor's "responsibility" ended at the dojo door and that the student was solely responsible for his/her behavior (not the teacher).

The instructor is, IMO, legally responsible for teaching appropriate use of the skills being taught. It's the same with giving someone a gun. They should be taught proper use of the weapon. Having said that, what the person does with that knowledge is outside of the instructor's control and responsibility.

I think an instructor that simply creates a killing machine is legally responsible for his actions, but if he shows that he teaches differently his responsibility is zilch.


Some instructors believe they are in a position to hand out advice, guidance, etc., in an effort to guide the life choices of the student.

I agree that the instructor is only a person with possibly a little more life experience with their students. They should only give advice as a friend and not as an all-knowing person. Dispensing financial, legal, or medical advice is treading very dangerous territory.


Further, should the instructor attempt to mold the student's behavior into an example of the cultural rules and traditions of the country from which the art arose?

Not at all. He can show what other cultures are like to provide an insight into improving the student's, but should never force it upon them.

WhiteBirch

[terryl965]

Well Sin years ago instructors where like father figures even to the older pupil in class they where looked upon as wise and mature for there knowledge of there Art and wisdom how to use said Art the right way. Over the years it became a marketing tools for the McDojo's through my Art we can help improve grades, make you wiser about life and help bring peace to your inner self. the fact is no-one can bring this to an individual except the person welcome your way of thinking. Parents need to bestill this into there childern, with that being said I try to teach the tenets of TKD to all my students and if you notice I said try, we can only do so much in the little time we have my student are required to learn them but as far as what they do outside of the hours i have them is a parent doman. Parent need to go back in be the role models for there child. If a parent ask me to help I try and I make sure the parent knows if you want me to be hard on your child you need to do the same outside the Dojaang, if your not then mine means nothing to that child.

[Andrew Green]

No different then a coach in any other sport.

Cultural - Nope, even IF the vast majority of instructors that tried this would be laughed out of the country with some of the "traditions" they teach.

But, that is what I look for, for other people that is part of what they pay for when they sign up. I just wish the people teaching them would do a little more research first....

[Andrew Green]

One more thing - Priests, pseudo-priests, general do-gooders, social workers, pyschiatrists, etc.

There is no shortage of people giving out advice without the experience to back it, just a different perspective (sometimes from education and traing other times not) Some of these people are good, some are not. Some are qualified, some are not.

Within the martial arts world we are lucky to have one important thing - Choice.

If someone wants a instructor who plays the mystic master and borderlines cult behaviour, well, we got those. If someone wants a good workout and practical skills we got those, if someone wants a ego-fuelled ultimate street fighter can kill in one shoot fantasy, we got those too.

Of course the last can be rather dangerous to themself and are annoying to deal with, but otherwise they'd be playing D&D and trying to build a lightsaber, so at least they're getting some excercise ;)

[Blindside]

A martial arts instructor is just that, a martial arts instructor. He is (hopefully) accredited to teach the mental and physical skills it takes to accomplish that art. Ethics regarding the use of the art may be included in this training. The instructor may have also have ancillary skills in law, psychology, or medicine that further or enhance the teaching of the art. I would not condone the use of a martial art instructorship to teach beyond that.

There are obvious exceptions, outside of martial arts my instructors have also been a: electrician; nurse; miner; hospital administrator; detention officer; and a police officer. I can and do take advice from these individuals regarding their specialties. In addition, I consider 3 of the 6 to be close friends and because of that they have the right to discuss with me regarding my life outside of the dojo/studio on a fairly personal level.

Lamont

[Flatlander]

All things are relative.

I think that a Martial Arts Instructor needs to be aware of the level of influence that they may hold over their students, and should feel honour bound to appreciate and respect that position. Just as a Physics teacher ought not feel obligated to discuss personal issues with a student, neither should a Martial Art teacher. Both are qualified to do only one thing, and that is to teach others the skills of their specialization.

A person of influence using their influence to manipulate those over whom they have influence is an abuse of authority.

So the question becomes, what is manipulative behaviour? Well, taking into account that the teacher is really only qualified to share knowledge in their specific subject of specialization, it seems to me that to impose their beliefs on other topics to the students over whom they have influence is manipulative behaviour, and thus, abuse of authority.

Of course, we must make allowance for the times when the instructor's opinion on unrelated topics is specifically requested. For example, "Teacher, I really like this girl, how would you handle it?"

This is a very different circumstance than, "Student, you are getting to the age where you might find girls sexually attractive. In order to be a Martial Artist, you must abstain from having sex until you're married."

See the difference?

[Matt Stone]

Well Sin years ago instructors where like father figures even to the older pupil in class they where looked upon as wise and mature for there knowledge of there Art and wisdom how to use said Art the right way.

Years ago where, precisely? In the US? Nope. In Asian countries? Sure, but that was part of their culturally dictated role. In the early years of the US, many people were looked up to and respected for their position: teachers, doctors, lawyers, police officers, etc. But as our country has progressed and expanded, we have seen (and see daily) that these people are as human as everyone else and just as capable of making catastrophically poor decisions. Granted, this has eroded our ability to provide role models for children (professional athletes should be the very last on the list for role models anymore, given their inclination toward drugs and prostitutes), but does that make a martial arts instructor necessarily better enabled to fill that role?


Over the years it became a marketing tools for the McDojo's through my Art we can help improve grades, make you wiser about life and help bring peace to your inner self.

I don't mean to critique your writing skills, but are you meaning to say that the marketing bit was that a McDojo would say they could raise a child's grades, etc., or that your school/art says that? I think you meant the former...


the fact is no-one can bring this to an individual except the person welcome your way of thinking. Parents need to bestill this into there childern,

I'd be inclined to agree.


with that being said I try to teach the tenets of TKD to all my students and if you notice I said try, we can only do so much in the little time we have

What tenets do you attempt to teach them that are drastically different from those taught elsewhere (home, church, academics, athletics, etc.)? My point is, are you really teaching them something new, or attempting to reinforce what they've already been exposed to?


my student are required to learn them but as far as what they do outside of the hours i have them is a parent doman. Parent need to go back in be the role models for there child. If a parent ask me to help I try and I make sure the parent knows if you want me to be hard on your child you need to do the same outside the Dojaang, if your not then mine means nothing to that child.

This is interesting to me... The other thread had a TKD instructor holding a completely opposite opinion, stating that the TKD teacher had a responsibility for his students' behavior in and out of class, that the TKD teacher had a responsibility to develop in them modes of thinking and behavior that stemmed from Korean cultural attitudes and beliefs. Why don't you follow that line of thought as well?

Interesting discussion...

[Matt Stone]

All things are relative.

I think that a Martial Arts Instructor needs to be aware of the level of influence that they may hold over their students, and should feel honour bound to appreciate and respect that position. Just as a Physics teacher ought not feel obligated to discuss personal issues with a student, neither should a Martial Art teacher. Both are qualified to do only one thing, and that is to teach others the skills of their specialization.

Nicely put.


A person of influence using their influence to manipulate those over whom they have influence is an abuse of authority.

I agree entirely. I think that is far more common in American MA schools than most people suspect. I can count quite a few instructors whom I've had personal interaction with who had just such a situation in their school. I'll say that not all of them were bad, but the majority were. There was one teacher, caucasian, who told a student that a visiting guest of the teacher's was going to stay at the student's home during their stay (told, not asked). When the student told the teacher that the student would have to discuss it with their spouse first, and that it might have a negative impact on the student's normal life schedule, the teacher told the student that it was disrespectful to turn down an honor of this kind... Whatever. I call that "trying to out-Asian the Asians," and this is one of the best examples I can find!


So the question becomes, what is manipulative behaviour? Well, taking into account that the teacher is really only qualified to share knowledge in their specific subject of specialization, it seems to me that to impose their beliefs on other topics to the students over whom they have influence is manipulative behaviour, and thus, abuse of authority.

Here's a "for instance." Let's say X art, from Y country, is often taught by native Y-icans to people in Z country. The Y-ican instructors, who are very proud of their art, nation and culture, pass on many of the cultural traditions and behaviors within the context of their martial art. Should Z-ican teachers, then, attempt to do the same, causing their Z-ican students to begin exhibiting Y-ican behaviors (which are most likely misunderstood, out of context, and almost humorous in their performance)? If so, why? If not, why?


Of course, we must make allowance for the times when the instructor's opinion on unrelated topics is specifically requested. For example, "Teacher, I really like this girl, how would you handle it?"

But is this advice based on their ability as a martial artist, or as a trusted adult influence? Is it necessarily any different advice than that received from any other trusted adult in the student's life?


This is a very different circumstance than, "Student, you are getting to the age where you might find girls sexually attractive. In order to be a Martial Artist, you must abstain from having sex until you're married."

See the difference?

Certainly, but there are some, I'm sure, who don't...

Discuss...

[terryl965]

I don't mean to critique your writing skills, but are you meaning to say that the marketing bit was that a McDojo would say they could raise a child's grades, etc., or that your school/art says that? I think you meant the former...

First off sorry for the bad writing skills I just got done with a heart stress test and was on medication, No not my school other schools out there use that as a tool to bring in childern



What tenets do you attempt to teach them that are drastically different from those taught elsewhere (home, church, academics, athletics, etc.)? My point is, are you really teaching them something new, or attempting to reinforce what they've already been exposed to?

The Tenets of TKD is Intigity,self control,courtesy,perseverance, indomitle spirit. Hopefully they have these qualities already in them some do some don't.

This is interesting to me... The other thread had a TKD instructor holding a completely opposite opinion, stating that the TKD teacher had a responsibility for his students' behavior in and out of class, that the TKD teacher had a responsibility to develop in them modes of thinking and behavior that stemmed from Korean cultural attitudes and beliefs. Why don't you follow that line of thought as well?

Well as you might have guess I been doing this a long time, in that time I have come to relize we can only do what we can do. I myself was a high school teacher for ten years, my wife god bless her is still teaching fifth grade, we know are limitations. The other gentleman you are referring to is a friend of mine a great guy, and he is a wonderful instructor, we all have are way of doing things and that's what makes this a great land of ours, we have that right to choose are fate as one might say.

I will be happy to carry on if you have anymore question for me, just be patient and I'll get back to you with my answer to your question.

Take care
Terry Lee Stoker

[MJS]

In another thread discussing multiple instructors in one school, the issue was brought up regarding the role(s) and rights of a martial arts instructor.

Points were made dealing with an instructor's assumed "responsibility" for the actions of his/her students both in and out of class, as well as the counterpoint that the instructor's "responsibility" ended at the dojo door and that the student was solely responsible for his/her behavior (not the teacher).

In class, yes, the instructor is responsible for what the student does. It is the instructors job to provide a safe, productive environment for the students at that school. As far as outside the school goes...a fine line can be drawn here. If the student was a child and he was using his MA skills to start fights, bully people in school, etc. then that is going to give a bad picture of that MA school. People may start to think that the inst. is training people how to be bullies. Now, if its an adult, and every Friday night he goes out with his friends to a bar or club and drinks, that is his business. The inst. should not get involved just because he may not be a drinker and not like bars/clubs.


Further, discussion dealt with the assumption that some martial arts instructors make regarding just what they have a right to do. Some instructors believe they are in a position to hand out advice, guidance, etc., in an effort to guide the life choices of the student. Others believe that the instructor should stick to what they know - martial arts - and not pass out advice in any context other than that of any other family member, friend, etc., i.e. as someone a little older and a little more experienced; the point being that a martial arts instructor is not inherently more qualified to guide the lives of his/her students than anyone else, though many seem to believe they are.

What are your feelings and opinions on this?

Advice is just that...Advice! The student is ultimately responsible for their actions. People give advice all the time, but like I said, its up to the individual to make the choice.


Further, should the instructor attempt to mold the student's behavior into an example of the cultural rules and traditions of the country from which the art arose? For example, should an American who is a Japanese karate teacher encourage his/her students to behave according to Japanese etiquette and traditions beyond that required within class context (like concepts of "face," "honor debts," etc.)? Also, should the teacher recommend that the student keep such ideals in mind outside of class, and having such ideal influence the behavior of the student, even when such ideals are alien to the student's native culture?

Enjoy.

One thing that we need to keep in mind here is that times change. What is acceptable in one country may not be in a different one. This is one of the questons the student should ask when they first enroll.

This is another fine line we have here. If it is a trad. school, then one can almost assume that some sort of trad. will be in that school. If its a more modern school, with little or no trad. then obviously things will be much different. Again, whats done in the class room, should stay in the class room. Once the student leaves for the day, then if he wants to go to the school down the street to train in Judo, then he should be able to.

Mike

[MichiganTKD]

I am not in favor of martial arts instructors forcing their opinions, religion, politics, morals etc. on students. However, in a traditional school, as Terry hinted at, the students' entire life experience is developed. That does NOT mean I have a right to know how much money you make, your relationship with your wife and family, your religious or political preference unless you volunteer that information. But I am concerned with your well being in and out of class. Traditional Tae kwon Do states clearly that a student shall never dishonor himself, his Instructor, his school, or his art. So, to a certain extent, I am responsible for your behavior in and out of class. That does not mean I dictate where you work, what job you hold, who you marry. That is your choice. I can say "I will not recommend you for 4th Dan testing because you work at McDonalds as a burger flipper and I want more out you than that." Sounds cruel, but our grandmaster has done just that.
I also reserve the right to look at your grades, because I don't want academically poor students with great technique.
In other words, I am concerned with your well being outside class as it relates to Tae Kwon Do. If you are an Instructor, and problems with your wife are interfering with your ability to effectively teach class, I may tell you to stop teaching until you get it worked out. If I am not teaching you to be responsible with your technique, I am definitely being negligent.
Now, some or many people would not understand this. They feel that my job is strictly to teach martial arts and nothing else. Do not care about the overall welfare of the students. I disagree. That is why traditional martial arts are a Way of Life as opposed to a sport or recreation. If some people refused to accept that type of environment, so be it.

And if a student of mine were going to judo after Tae Kwon Do, I'd tell him "Pick one."

[MJS]

I am not in favor of martial arts instructors forcing their opinions, religion, politics, morals etc. on students. However, in a traditional school, as Terry hinted at, the students' entire life experience is developed. That does NOT mean I have a right to know how much money you make, your relationship with your wife and family, your religious or political preference unless you volunteer that information. But I am concerned with your well being in and out of class. Traditional Tae kwon Do states clearly that a student shall never dishonor himself, his Instructor, his school, or his art. So, to a certain extent, I am responsible for your behavior in and out of class. That does not mean I dictate where you work, what job you hold, who you marry. That is your choice. I can say "I will not recommend you for 4th Dan testing because you work at McDonalds as a burger flipper and I want more out you than that." Sounds cruel, but our grandmaster has done just that.
I also reserve the right to look at your grades, because I don't want academically poor students with great technique.
In other words, I am concerned with your well being outside class as it relates to Tae Kwon Do. If you are an Instructor, and problems with your wife are interfering with your ability to effectively teach class, I may tell you to stop teaching until you get it worked out. If I am not teaching you to be responsible with your technique, I am definitely being negligent.
Now, some or many people would not understand this. They feel that my job is strictly to teach martial arts and nothing else. Do not care about the overall welfare of the students. I disagree. That is why traditional martial arts are a Way of Life as opposed to a sport or recreation. If some people refused to accept that type of environment, so be it.

And if a student of mine were going to judo after Tae Kwon Do, I'd tell him "Pick one."

Ok...the above statement IMO sounds like you're slightly contradicting yourself. You state that you won't tell me where I work, but you will tell me to decide between 2 arts?

Mike

[Adept]

A person of influence using their influence to manipulate those over whom they have influence is an abuse of authority
I would not strictly agree with that. A person of influence cannot help but manipulate the people over whom they have influence. That is what makes them a person of influence. An abuse of their authority would, in my opinion, be to use said influence in a negative manner.

[Matt Stone]

I am not in favor of martial arts instructors forcing their opinions, religion, politics, morals etc. on students.

But you advocate imparting the cultural attitudes, behaviors and traditions for a student not only to be aware or or familiar with, but to embody and employ in their daily life.


However, in a traditional school, as Terry hinted at, the students' entire life experience is developed.

Their "life experience" is developed? How, precisely? By punching and kicking? By learning to take a fall? Or by having the teacher impose and enforce methods of thinking and acting outside the scope of the martial discipline?


That does NOT mean I have a right to know how much money you make, your relationship with your wife and family, your religious or political preference unless you volunteer that information.

That was never stated nor implied.


But I am concerned with your well being in and out of class.

Admirable and definitely a display of dedication to your students, but still outside the scope of any action on the part of a martial arts instructor. Being concerned and acting on that concern are two different things.


Traditional Tae kwon Do states clearly that a student shall never dishonor himself, his Instructor, his school, or his art.

And what does "dishonor" mean? Merriam-Webster Online says that "dishonor" is defined as:

1 a : to treat in a degrading manner b : to bring shame on

"Shame" is:

1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion
2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute


So, to a certain extent, I am responsible for your behavior in and out of class.

Responsible how? To whom? Do you answer to the student's family members in the event that the student "dishonors" you, your school or the art? What constitutes "dishonor" anyway? Bad grades? Bullying other kids? Drinking under age? Reckless driving? Getting a girl pregnant? Failing to register for the draft? Bouncing a check? When does the action of a student become "dishonorable," and therefore something that the teacher, school, and art need to be concerned with?


That does not mean I dictate where you work, what job you hold, who you marry. That is your choice.

Just as choosing to bounce a check, smoke a joint, drink a beer underage, etc., is the student's choice, completely independent of the instructor's influence. Further, so too is the choice to employ their martial skills, a la Cobra Kai, to intimidate and bully others. It is beyond the instructor's reach, and therefore beyond the instructor's responsibility.


I can say "I will not recommend you for 4th Dan testing because you work at McDonalds as a burger flipper and I want more out you than that." Sounds cruel, but our grandmaster has done just that.

Had it been me that wasn't being recommended, you could bet that I'd have the "grandmaster" (a term I can't stand; regular "master" isn't high enough?) in court... Further, I'd be quite happy, at that point, to leave such an oppressive and controlling organization. He has the right not to test me, sure. He doesn't have the right to dictate things in my personal life, nor to hold such things over my head... I'd suggest your organization examine the legality of such non-recommendation, have your attorneys review it, and hope there is some kind of allowance for the arbitrary denial of advancement in a sporting organization due to abstract and poorly defined reasons...


I also reserve the right to look at your grades, because I don't want academically poor students with great technique.

If it were my child in your class, I suppose it'd really depend on what I thought of you in person. I can't tell what you are like via the internet. My son was in a TKD class, and even had he not been disillusioned with the instruction (the teacher told him not to rotate his hips when punching, because if he did so his head would turn 90 degrees away from the opponent and he wouldn't be able to see the bad guy... even my 8 year old son knew better...), I wouldn't allow the teacher to make the decision on whether my son had access to services I was paying money for... It is my place as a parent to make the decision on whether my child participates in what amount to extracurricular activities, not the instructor/coach. At least not when I'm paying for my child to be there. If my child were on a team, then the coach doesn't have to put my child into the game, but he'll darn sure go to practice, learn, participate, and then sit the bench as punishment...


In other words, I am concerned with your well being outside class as it relates to Tae Kwon Do.

Fine. Be concerned, but know your boundaries...


If you are an Instructor, and problems with your wife are interfering with your ability to effectively teach class, I may tell you to stop teaching until you get it worked out.

That'd be a business decision, not necessarily concern for my well-being... If you are paying me to teach, then you are my employer, and you are acting to look out for the well-being of the class and the business. If you aren't paying me, then you are still looking out for the class and the business, but it is a lot more personal.



If I am not teaching you to be responsible with your technique, I am definitely being negligent.

But if you are teaching the student to "use karate defense only," and the student is irresponsible and somehow injures someone else, it still isn't your responsibility. It is a case of Colt, or Smith and Wesson, being responsible for some kid shooting another kid... That's a BS premise, and so is the martial arts instructor being responsible for the actions of his/her students.


Now, some or many people would not understand this. They feel that my job is strictly to teach martial arts and nothing else. Do not care about the overall welfare of the students. I disagree.

No one said don't care about their general welfare. What was said was that a martial arts instructor has boundaries, beyond which he/she doesn't necessarily have any right to venture. It simply isn't their job to do so. Having a concern, and acting on the concern are two completely separate issues...


That is why traditional martial arts are a Way of Life as opposed to a sport or recreation. If some people refused to accept that type of environment, so be it.

So at what point do martial arts cease being combative sports and step closer to churches and religious organizations? By saying MA are a "way of life" begins shuffling them dangerously close to such a condition...


And if a student of mine were going to judo after Tae Kwon Do, I'd tell him "Pick one."

Why can't he train in both? What specific reason could there be to dictate the personal, private actions of your student, especially since you've said above that you can't tell a student what to do with their life? Judo, tapdancing, flying a kite in the rain... All personal choices for activities outside your school, none of which bring "dishonor" to you, your schoool, nor your art... Therefore, none of your business...

Enjoy.

[sifu Adams]

Good Thread and realy good Advice.

Have some real expeaces I would bring up but first my thoughts.

As a 12 year martial arts instructor, General motors supevisor, with a commuication degree. I have had students and employee ask some tuff questions. some personal, some about life, some just wont someone to bounce there thoughts off of. I think these days that peson you goto to talk about your problems is hard to find. Many parent bring there kids to Martial arts schools just to have time for themselfs, some because the kid is out of control and some because the kid wonts to go and the adults take it for heath improvement as a way of meeting people. As a martial arts instuctor or a supervisor I think you have to lison and help when you can. I have refered people to Phycs, doctors, lawyers, ect... I only recomend them to go and only in a few cases have I helped them find someone. but I don't and I would never force my veiw on someone. I only return the take after the opproch me. I never go looking to impove someone.

Let me throw some examples at everyone. that I had trouble dealing with.

1. I had a student (17) that was a brown belt. I was veary close to throwing him out of my school. not because his skill ( He was one of my best fighters) but because of his problem with dealing with control and anger. He ask me seval times to talk with the police department ( I have good standing with many of the areas forces.) because he wonted to become a Police officer. I recommed him to a Explorer program that taught kids how to be police offecrs. they have compititions and everything. He went to one class because the instructor was really hard on them. I done everything I could think of to try to change how he delt with control and anger. I did pushups, made him fight upper black belts (to get whipped). Nothing changed him. the only thing left would be to beat the hell out of him. and After he made a pass at my (14 year old ) daughter friend I explaned that the next time he would be getting hisself up off the floor. ( Ya that's right he hit on the martial arts instructors daughter and friend infront of the instructor. now that's balls) to make this long story short. He is now serving time in jail for Molesting his 10 year old neace which is also one of my students.

2. I had a student that was 19 years old and had mental disablitys. (he was a druge baby) and his stepmother past away. he called me at 1:30am and just wonted to talk. he had no other family and wonted to know if he could join my classes. After talking to him for about an hour we set up a time for him to come in. After about 7 months one of the City Council members stopped me and ask if I was teaching student (X) I said yes and he went on to tell me about his life and how his mother was on the Council and was well respected. He told me that everyone was worred about what he would do. ( he is not able to work with his disablity) He told me that the martial arts has been the best thing that every happed to (X). I will let you ponder on this then I will tell you the rest of the story.

[lonecoyote]

The best leaders, the people you learn the most from, lead by example. I've learned a lot from my instructor, who is actually about 10 years younger than I am. He treats people with respect, decency and compassion, and he can do that because he has self respect. Doesn't have to tell anyone to have humility, because he has it himself, just watch him a while,and you will want to begin to emulate him. An instructor can be a man you want to model yourself after, at least in regards to certain qualities, and in so doing make yourself a better person. Imposing draconian rules is the wrong way to go about making a difference in peoples lives. Just show them how you're supposed to act by doing it yourself. If you want your students to have self control, restraint, and act respectfully of others then start with the guy in the mirror, and maybe they'll follow. Too many kids don't know American and western manners, its kind of pointless to confuse them with esoteric asian etiquette before they know how to act toward each other in this country. Teach em to shake hands, look each other in the eye, call each other by name first and that will get them a lot farther than too much traditional stuff.

[lonecoyote]

Wow, sifu Adams, incredible experiences. Thank you. What happened to (X)?

[sifu Adams]

After about 2 years of training I started him on internal breathing, meditation, tai chi. Chi Kong. and well he snapped on me during class, infront of all my student and parents. let me explain. he went running out of my gym into the middle of main street yelling at the top of his lungs that we worshiped the devil and cussing at the top of his lungs. Not good for buisness. So I had to kick him out of my classes or loose over half my student base. He is learning from another school now and I worked with the instructor of that school to explaine what happen and he's not teaching the internals to him just the hard styles and he has been doing great.

Lesson learned never teach a student with Mental disablity's a mental art.

[Matt Stone]

So if students emulate their instructors' behavior, is there a need for the students to be "taught" courtesy, respect, etiquette, etc., or should the instructors simply strive to better represent their art's traditions and exemplary behaviors?

Further, if the instructor is a Westerner, and teaching an Eastern martial art, should the instructor emulate the Eastern behaviors, or stick to representing the traditions inherent in his own culture?

[Flatlander]

Further, if the instructor is a Westerner, and teaching an Eastern martial art, should the instructor emulate the Eastern behaviors, or stick to representing the traditions inherent in his own culture?I can see how this is related to the discussion, Matt, but the essence of this question runs much deeper than the specific topic here.

I think that many people, after learning about or being exposed to other cultures, often find bits of that culture that they feel really comfortable with; something with which they can identify. Further to this, in our relatively "newer" composite cultures in the Americas, who can really define what is or is not an appropriate tradition?

For example, many people feel that meditiation can be a useful or rewarding activity. This isn't a Western thing; its much more closely associated with eastern ways. However, should Easterners have exclusive "right" to that activity? I figure that if you dig it, do it.

Personally, I identify much more closely with Eastern philosophy than Western. I choose to look at the world within a Taoist framework, when I'm able. I don't think that in any way this can be identified as a particularly Western or Canadian tradition or cultural norm. But it works for me, it helps me reconcile my system of belief.

Sorry, bit of a tangent there...

[Flatlander]

I would not strictly agree with that. A person of influence cannot help but manipulate the people over whom they have influence. That is what makes them a person of influence. An abuse of their authority would, in my opinion, be to use said influence in a negative manner.I guess that depends upon how you think the word manipulate is defined. In any definition I have read, something devious and self serving is always implied; for example, from dictionary.com:

1: influence or control shrewdly or deviously; "He manipulated public opinion in his favor"

Given that, it seems to me that because someone is in a position of influence, that doesn't necessarily mean they must manipulate, rather, it means that they have the ability to do so. In your assertion that "A person of influence cannot help but manipulate the people over whom they have influence", I must absolutely disagree.

[rmclain]

[QUOTE=Matt Stone]So if students emulate their instructors' behavior, is there a need for the students to be "taught" courtesy, respect, etiquette, etc., or should the instructors simply strive to better represent their art's traditions and exemplary behaviors?

I expect these things from someone before they are allowed to become a student at my school. They must continue to show courtesy, respect, proper etiquette as a student once they are a student as well. What they do outside of the school I cannot and shouldn't be able to control. I hope that the positive reinforcement while training at the school rubs off on the student and they learn to apply these things in their daily lives. These simple behaviors mentioned above are part of being a positive and productive member of just about any society.

When students can look back on their training and see how it positively influenced their lives beyond kicking and punching, it can be powerful public relations for martial arts in general and more people will be encouraged to participate. But, when martial art degrades to just jumping up and down, scoring points, arging about which art is better than another, then the martial arts are doomed to being viewed as no better than any other sports-temporary passtime with no benefits except breaking a sweat.

R. McLain

[mj-hi-yah]

So at what point do martial arts cease being combative sports and step closer to churches and religious organizations? By saying MA are a "way of life" begins shuffling them dangerously close to such a condition...



This is a curious question you raise. Do you think that if a person were to treat a Martial Art as their religion that practicing it as such is objectionable?

[terryl965]

MA is not religous base, when the statement say's it a way of life, to me anyway means to hold the same value's that I was tought by my Father and instructor. Sense they where the same man it is a way of life for me. My religous preference has nothing to do with my MA life.

[Matt Stone]

This is a curious question you raise. Do you think that if a person were to treat a Martial Art as their religion that practicing it as such is objectionable?

The issue at hand isn't whether the individual practice is bad, but rather the behavior of the instructor in attempting to control the student's freedom and choices by imposing external and alien cultural standards on him/her.

[tshadowchaser]

As an instructor I do attempt to influence (not control) some of the things that happen to or may affect my students. I ask the parents of the children to make sure that homework (both in school and at home) is completed or in the process of completion before they come to class. If they are having trouble in school with a subject I ask that they tell me what subject and I try to find one of my other students (adult or child) that knows the subject, in an effort to help out.

I expect to be told about any out of dojo fights, bad encounters, etc. I don’t judge what occurred but try to see if things could have been avoided some way.



I hope that as an instructor some of the things we discuss in class ( life values, history, anatomy, etc,) from time to time will stick in the students mind.

[mj-hi-yah]

The issue at hand isn't whether the individual practice is bad, but rather the behavior of the instructor in attempting to control the student's freedom and choices by imposing external and alien cultural standards on him/her.Thanks for clarifying. :asian:
A person controlling another person's freedom of choice in itself seems like a contradiction to me. I suppose it is possible for an instructor to attempt this, but is it necessarily bad for an instructor to attempt this? Not necessarily, partially because ultimately we all are responsible for making our own choices. Children only get to make the choices that affect their lives that their parents allow for them to. If a parent makes the choice for their child to be in a school where an instructor attempts to influence his/her students in the way you describe, and that parent deems these influences to be positive, and maybe even culturally enlightening and enriching, than I find it acceptable. So long as the attempted imposed beliefs are in conjunction with the parent's set of core values and beliefs, I see no problem. If an instructor attempts to impose alien culture on a person and the person/parent feels that the influence is positive and beneficial than to me it's acceptable as well. If an art is presented to the student as a way of life than it is the student's choice as to whether or not he/she will embrace all of the tenents set forth, or in the case of a child it is the parent's choice to allow or disallow the exposure. In some Aikido schools there are Zen classes that are offered as a part of training. If students are given a choice to partake in these classes and sit zazen and incorporate into their lives the philosophies learned as a result of these classes than I think that is acceptable - to take it further if the students were told that they must attend Zen classes as a part of their training than the student or parent is still exercising a choice here, to either accept or deny the training and all that goes with it.

If people don't agree or desire the influence they will vote with their feet and either leave a personally undesirable instructor or choose not to sign up from the start.

In some cases they may just seek out a place where such influences align with their own beliefs or enrich them through exposure to diversity. It all depends on where you stand.

MJ :asian:

[Colin_Linz]

Thanks for clarifying. :asian:
A person controlling another person's freedom of choice in itself seems like a contradiction to me. I suppose it is possible for an instructor to attempt this, but is it necessarily bad for an instructor to attempt this? Not necessarily, partially because ultimately we all are responsible for making our own choices. Children only get to make the choices that affect their lives that their parents allow for them to. If a parent makes the choice for their child to be in a school where an instructor attempts to influence his/her students in the way you describe, and that parent deems these influences to be positive, and maybe even culturally enlightening and enriching, than I find it acceptable. So long as the attempted imposed beliefs are in conjunction with the parent's set of core values and beliefs, I see no problem. If an instructor attempts to impose alien culture on a person and the person/parent feels that the influence is positive and beneficial than to me it's acceptable as well. If an art is presented to the student as a way of life than it is the student's choice as to whether or not he/she will embrace all of the tenents set forth, or in the case of a child it is the parent's choice to allow or disallow the exposure. In some Aikido schools there are Zen classes that are offered as a part of training. If students are given a choice to partake in these classes and sit zazen and incorporate into their lives the philosophies learned as a result of these classes than I think that is acceptable - to take it further if the students were told that they must attend Zen classes as a part of their training than the student or parent is still exercising a choice here, to either accept or deny the training and all that goes with it.

If people don't agree or desire the influence they will vote with their feet and either leave a personally undesirable instructor or choose not to sign up from the start.

In some cases they may just seek out a place where such influences align with their own beliefs or enrich them through exposure to diversity. It all depends on where you stand.

MJ :asian: I would agree with MJ. You always have the right to do the art or not. This doesn’t free an instructor from the responsibilities of conducting training in a legal, moral and ethical manner. There are a number of types of martial arts around, and their individual goals can be quite different. Some will have a higher goal than just fighting ability.

In Shorinji Kempo we have three ranking system, Bukai, Hokai, and Sokai. They refer to different areas, Bukai are the martial arts rankings, Hokai are the philosophy rankings and Sokai are the religious rankings. In the west there are very few people with Sokai rankings. We also have different branch designations. Doin and Dojo. Doin are branches that are run by instructors that have the right level of Sokai ranking, and the right facilities for training. Dojo are the normal type of branches and don’t teach the religious side, but do teach philosophy. It is not necessary to convert or believe in the religious side, but you will be tested on the philosophy. The philosophy is based on Kongo Zen Buddhism, but would be compatible with most people’s core values, as it does not concern itself with deities, but rather lifestyle.

This model may fit your needs or may not. If it doesn’t then you will do something else. You may ask what gives these teachers the right, or skills to teach these things to people. The answer is the same things that allow our Ministers to do the same thing. Shorinji Kempo have their own Schools and Universities that are Government accredited to train people in these skills as well as the normal academic curriculum. Will their individual skills differ at doing this? Of course, but they have been trained. This is also the case in the west with councillors, priests, or even phycologists.

On a more personal level. I hold the philosophy component of our syllabus very high; I think it has great worth. This is because I believe it has been of more practical value than the fighting side. I believe very strongly that my life would be very different know if I had not started training in Shorinji Kempo, and had not been prodded into examining the world around me, human nature, and some of their truths.

[47MartialMan]

Well, my own students often look at me as a martial art instructor in class and as a older brother or unnlce outside.

[safeeagle]

All great thoughts Matt. On one hand when I go out to buy a gun. The salesman doesn't tell me when to use it. The same could be said of an instructor of MA. However, the MA instructor takes the student on a journey. It's more than just a moment. In most cases the instructor becomes a friend and mentor. He sees his students victories and defeats. Sometimes it not so much the instructor giving advice and quidance but the student willingly absorbing all from his MA instructor. The student questions and wants to know how would my instructor deal with this. "I want to be like him" he says to himself.

[47MartialMan]

But a martial art instructor has more of a personal responsilbility than a gun salesman.

[Matt Stone]

All great thoughts Matt. On one hand when I go out to buy a gun. The salesman doesn't tell me when to use it.

Nice comparison.


The same could be said of an instructor of MA. However, the MA instructor takes the student on a journey.

I think the roles are being romanticized a bit, don't you?


It's more than just a moment. In most cases the instructor becomes a friend and mentor. He sees his students victories and defeats. Sometimes it not so much the instructor giving advice and quidance but the student willingly absorbing all from his MA instructor. The student questions and wants to know how would my instructor deal with this. "I want to be like him" he says to himself.

I think the romantic and fantastic myth of the martial arts master and his/her devoted student is overdone and inappropriate. There isn't a direct equal in American culture to fully relate that relationship; most mentor/student archetypes have the student being disrespectful and rebellious as opposed to dutiful and obedient. I think the martial arts mentor/master owes more to Hollywood than anyone cares to admit.

Certainly, in some small few cases, the teacher provides the student with something of genuine value to their development, martial and otherwise. But this certainly isn't the common experience. Simple examination of the business of commercial martial arts schools reveals that in successful schools there are far too many students for a teacher to have developed a suitably personal relationship to have become a mentor to a student in a personal, intimate fashion. If it transpires more often in smaller schools, the diminished number of students in those smaller schools further emphasizes the limited number of students with that have that experience.

Further, is it really the teacher that provides the student with knowledge and wisdom, or is it simply nothing more than the teacher pointing the student in a given direction and allowing the student to learn or not learn whatever lesson may be waiting? I'd say that the teacher laying claim to having "taught" is the teacher who is in need of further instruction! It isn't the teacher who actively teaches, but the student who actively learns; the teacher simply provides information for the student to work with and learn from...

I used to think that it was the teacher who actively taught. I no longer believe that, primarily because of my experience teaching. You can tell a student X, show a student X, explain X over and over again. If the student doesn't do the work him/herself, then no matter how much you "teach," the student still won't learn.

And it isn't that I disbelieve the possibility and potential of a traditional MA teacher/student relationship existing and having benefits for both, but rather that there are far more teachers who don't have what it would take to enter into such a relationship (for whatever reason) than there are teachers who lay claim to providing such a relationship to their students. Too many teachers want to buy their own hype to satiate their desire to be something special (like being a MA teacher for the mystique attached to it by others), and they then attempt to inflict their own ideas, beliefs, opinions, etc., onto their students under the guise of "teaching" them to be better MAists.

My argument is that a MA teacher should confine his/her actions to what they are qualified to do - present MA instruction to MA students. Leave the life counseling to others who are better trained, keep personal opinions and advice to themselves (unless asked for it, in which instance the person doing the asking should remember "buyer beware" as with any advice), and worry less about fitting into Mr. Miyagi's shoes and more about being themselves...

[Matt Stone]

But a martial art instructor has more of a personal responsilbility than a gun salesman.

Not true.

Both provide a potentially dangerous tool to their respective customers, but neither of them are personally responsible for what the customer does with the tool once they own it.

Are a person's parents responsible for the decisions that the child makes? The parents have a moral, ethical and legal obligation to teach the child what society expects of them, to teach the child what is and is not acceptible according to society. If the child becomes a depraved criminal, is it the fault of the parent?

For those who argue that a MA teacher is similar to a parental role, then oughtn't the MA teacher be prosecuted (and the parents of the child as well) for the child's misconduct? Somehow I think people will disagree with that, but that is of course the logical application of this illogical and incorrect premise (MA teacher = parental role model).

[47MartialMan]

Hmmn good point...However, would you think that the instructor feels more moral obligation than a gun salesman looking for a sale?

[Matt Stone]

Hmmn good point...However, would you think that the instructor feels more moral obligation than a gun salesman looking for a sale?

You tell me... From the many commercial schools I've seen where instructors had good intentions toward their students but were still focused on the bottom line (high enrollments = high income), I can't tell where the instructor's sense of moral involvement ends and his dedication to fiscal success begins. One does, almost necessarily, influence the other.

Further, feeling moral responsibility and actually imposing on another's life and decision making process without having a genuine and justified relationship which allows for such influence are two completely different things. I've never said that an instructor should be chastized for feeling a sense of responsibility to one degree or another, but that he/she has absolutely no justification whatsoever to believe his/her influence exists anywhere outside of the school and martial arts instruction. School teachers feel responsibility for their students, I'm sure, but their responsibilities end at the doors of the school. Doctors may feel responsible for certain patients, lawyers may feel responsible for certain clients (I am a paralegal, so I know that one by experience), but their actual responsibility, professional or otherwise, ends exactly where the object of their concern (student/patient/client) begins their decision making process. It isn't the concern of the outsider to be responsible for the decisions of the individual.

Our society spends a lot of time divesting our citizens of responsibility... This is a similar phenomena, where someone is attempting to divest someone of individual responsibility, only in this case it isn't by laying the blame on another but by taking up the responsibility themselves.

People make decisions all on their own. The decision, and the consequences of it, belong solely to that person and no one else.

[Colin_Linz]

Are we talking about a range of martial arts here, or just commercial American schools, in the context of American culture? Any form of budo has at its core the purpose of development of people; it is not budo if it lacks this.

In any coaching role you are not just teaching the nuts and bolts of the sport. You are a mentor, and you will actively try to develop qualities within your athletes. In all my coaching courses (including non martial arts) we have studied motivation, counselling, communication and ethics. This so we can help our athletes develop into not only winners, but also good competitors. An under 17 cyclist will need to ride 700 klm a week; this takes a huge chunk out of their time. They have pressure from friends and family to spend more time with them, they have pressure from schools to complete homework and assignments, and they have pressure from themselves to perform at a level they expect of themselves. If I'm coaching the athlete they don't need more pressure from me, they need encouragement and motivation. Not just to win, but to win in the right manner (sportsmanship, drugs). When they have had a particularly tuff time with some outside element they depend on the coach to be able to help them. This advice may be direct help, or it could be encouraging them to seek more specialised help. Coaches in Australia are trained in this, and there are different levels of training. Where problems arise is when coaches don’t understand their limits of assistance, but then this is also true of many professionals.

I can understand Matts comments regarding commercial styles in America, or anywhere else for that matter. After all their whole point of existence is to make money and this is where their focus is directed. We should however not discount those arts that are still around where the focus is on the development of the person. It doesn’t matter if the lessons are structured theory, or just rely on the experiential learning aspects of their training methods. The image of Mr Miyagi is a romanticised one, but this does not mean that there are not arts around that are directed towards character development, and have skills to achieve this.

[Matt Stone]

Colin! Greetings!


Are we talking about a range of martial arts here, or just commercial American schools, in the context of American culture? Any form of budo has at its core the purpose of development of people; it is not budo if it lacks this.

The comments could be applied equally to any country, though I suspect that, with our "new and improved" mentality along with all the other baggage our culture clutters our citizens with, it may also be very uniquely American...


In any coaching role you are not just teaching the nuts and bolts of the sport. You are a mentor, and you will actively try to develop qualities within your athletes. In all my coaching courses (including non martial arts) we have studied motivation, counselling, communication and ethics. This so we can help our athletes develop into not only winners, but also good competitors. An under 17 cyclist will need to ride 700 klm a week; this takes a huge chunk out of their time. They have pressure from friends and family to spend more time with them, they have pressure from schools to complete homework and assignments, and they have pressure from themselves to perform at a level they expect of themselves. If I'm coaching the athlete they don't need more pressure from me, they need encouragement and motivation. Not just to win, but to win in the right manner (sportsmanship, drugs). When they have had a particularly tuff time with some outside element they depend on the coach to be able to help them. This advice may be direct help, or it could be encouraging them to seek more specialised help. Coaches in Australia are trained in this, and there are different levels of training. Where problems arise is when coaches don’t understand their limits of assistance, but then this is also true of many professionals.

I agree with this paragraph entirely. The last sentence (my emphasis added) is most appropriate, and speaks to the point of this thread.

As a noncommissioned officer in the US Army, I have had limited training in counseling, motivation, etc., to better develop my subordinate soldiers. I am required by Army doctrine to counsel my soldiers regularly on their development (both personal and professional), their education, their work performance, their attitude, etc. That doesn't imply, though, that I am the person that accomplishes changes in my subordinates' behaviors or performances... They make changes, or not, on their own. If they change for the better, that change was their decision. If they change for the worse, or don't change at all, that too was their decision. While it is my responsibility to do whatever I can to provide them with the information, guidance and feedback on how to effect changes, it isn't me that does the changing... Just them. And while I'm responsible for providing them the guidance and counseling, I'm not responsible for their decisions.


I can understand Matts comments regarding commercial styles in America, or anywhere else for that matter. After all their whole point of existence is to make money and this is where their focus is directed. We should however not discount those arts that are still around where the focus is on the development of the person. It doesn’t matter if the lessons are structured theory, or just rely on the experiential learning aspects of their training methods. The image of Mr Miyagi is a romanticised one, but this does not mean that there are not arts around that are directed towards character development, and have skills to achieve this.

I don't discount the arts which contain within their doctrine a desire to develop the character of the student; far from it. In fact, I wish that more arts contained something more than a cursory nod toward such development. That having been said, I maintain that it isn't the teacher that "does" the teaching, but rather the student that gains the teaching through doing their own work... Therefore, the teacher isn't responsible for the student's actions, development or training. The teacher provides information, and the student does with it what he/she will.

[Colin_Linz]

Thanks Matt, I have a better understanding of your point. Yes we can’t change anyone who doesn’t have the desire to do so. All we can is do is try to get them to examine aspects of their lives and offer strategies that may help them change if they desire. We don’t teach them in the same way as kids are taught their times tables, but rather encourage them to examine things for themselves and offer primer thoughts to help guide them.

It is amazing how much we can change cultural thought. When I joined the Air Force in 1988 it had a typical military culture. You were told what to do and when to do it, there was no argument, and if you did you would be charged. The leadership was very Autocratic. My first promotional course involved learning all the various manual reference numbers and two days of yelling at people on the parade ground. We then went through a period of massive staff reductions. While this Autocratic leadership model worked well earlier, it was not efficient with reduced staff. We needed people that could think for themselves and work within a team environment. This is when we moved to the TQM style of management. This coupled with the emergence of EEO required a completely different culture of work practices. Our Air Force now is very much a consultive management model, with quality teams improving processes, and staff required to be proactive and do what is needed. The same promotional course I did in 1991 now features a greatly extended time period and covers subjects like Team Building, Motivation, Coaching, Workplace Training, Counselling, Leadership, TQM, and EEO. There is still a drill phase, it lasts about 30 minutes.

The changes in attitudes and character have been vast. These changes happened because staff recognised why they needed to change, and that it would be an improvement. They effected the change, but the change would not have happened had their been no program of education in place to develop and guide peoples desire to effect this change.

[47MartialMan]

So, where I can understand that a instructor cannot be so involved, professionally, and that the student has to make their own decisions, still some instructors, (non-commercial) tend to view their students as nieces/nephews, or themselves portraying a mentor. Not to state that they tell the students what to do with their lives, but have guidance to AID them through hard and confusing times.


Other professions do this from religious leaders/priests-reverends, to school counselors and coaches.

Nice reply posting Matt!

[Matt Stone]

So, where I can understand that a instructor cannot be so involved, professionally, and that the student has to make their own decisions, still some instructors, (non-commercial) tend to view their students as nieces/nephews, or themselves portraying a mentor. Not to state that they tell the students what to do with their lives, but have guidance to AID them through hard and confusing times.

This pseudo-familial relationship is what marks the MA instructor as different from the other professional disciplines, as a priest, lawyer, doctor, etc., would know that a suitable boundary must be maintained. The problem is that too many non-Asian instructors attempt to adopt extra-cultural relationships (e.g. teacher/father or teacher/uncle) and force those relationships onto their students.


Other professions do this from religious leaders/priests-reverends, to school counselors and coaches.

Those other professions do certainly provide advice and counseling in an attempt to aid the development of their clients/parish/students/etc. But they maintain a professional distance, violations of which are punishable by law.

[47MartialMan]

This pseudo-familial relationship is what marks the MA instructor as different from the other professional disciplines, as a priest, lawyer, doctor, etc., would know that a suitable boundary must be maintained. The problem is that too many non-Asian instructors attempt to adopt extra-cultural relationships (e.g. teacher/father or teacher/uncle) and force those relationships onto their students.

Those other professions do certainly provide advice and counseling in an attempt to aid the development of their clients/parish/students/etc. But they maintain a professional distance, violations of which are punishable by law.
Hear hear.....how true....