I wanna be fast

[Deathtrap101]

Now i am fairly fast(i think), but i still would like more advice on how to be faster. There are big guys out there who can punch pretty damn hard. Im pretty big compared to alot of guys my age (15yo 6' , 168lbs) and im in shape. What workouts can i do to be faster and become stronger, because FORCE=MASS X ACCELERATION. any response would be good, thanks.

:asian:

[DJDragon]

Punching with light weights should help with faster punches.

BTW, does anyone know if red fast twitch bodies effect your punches/kicks like they do your running?

[tonbo]

.....training slow can help to develop your speed. Train techniques slowly, perhaps even with exaggerated movement a number of times, and gradually build up speed (over weeks, not repetitions...heh). Train your body to use certain "patterns" of motion, and work 'em until they are intuitive. That will help as well.

Another thing to consider is that while speed and mass are both good to have, so is torque. I am assuming that you are in the MA, as you are here....:D ....if so, take a hint from Elvis Presley: Get yer hips movin'!!! Popping the hip into your strikes can add a surprising amount of power. Also, get good at targets, so that you know *where* to strike. Yeah, others may be bigger or stronger, but they are still susceptible to pain in many targets. If you are able to put the right amount of "pressure" in the right place, it may make all things equal.

Last point for you: Size does not necessarily equal strength!! Remember that someone who is not built like Arnold can still pack a heck of a whallop, especially if they train for strength specifically. Train for size if you want it, but look into routines that will build your strength and endurance, and those will take you a bit further toward your goals.

Good luck!!

Peace--

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by DJDragon

Punching with light weights should help with faster punches.

BTW, does anyone know if red fast twitch bodies effect your punches/kicks like they do your running?

Red meat is slow twitch fibers, white meat is fast twitch, then there are types of fast twitch.

Of course, muscles have only 1 function, and that is to contract, the greater the contractile force, the faster you will be. However you do not need to look like Arnold to be strong. In fact Arnold stated that while he was making the movie Conan, his extremely large muscles slowed him down. If you have alot of time here are a couple articles on some stuff....if you want more, you can do a search on Muscular Hyperplasia, or Muscular Hypertrophy.

http://www.afpafitness.com/FiberType.htm2
http://www.brinkzone.com/jose1.html
http://www.betterbodz.com/Tom/muscle_fiber_types_body_ty.html
http://www.aps.uoguelph.ca/~swatland/ch7_2.htm
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/ip/sigs/sports/martial-arts/faq/st1
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/units/biochem/coursenotes/blanchaer_tutorials/Bob/metabolism_1.htm

[Danny]

Is it not kinectic energy = half mass x speed squared?

[Yari]

Faster??????

Just remember that MA isn't alle about being fast or punch the hardest. It's a matter of timing. You get that right and you can be slower than your oppenent and still "win".

Of course you need some speed, but this sounds like you have the basics, so technique and timing should do the rest.


/Yari

[RoninWolf]

Plyometrics is said to develop fast twitch muscle fibres.

Also, as an alternative to punching with weights, try punching while stretching a resistance band. It will help yopu develop speed and power as well.

[sweeper]

unless I'm mistaken plyometrics improves your ability to recruit muscle fibers (more than developing them).

[Deathtrap101]

plyometrics??? never heard the term before. Lets use the average 15year olds vocabulary please.

ANd im not sure about the kinetic energy thing, i wouldnt doubt it being an equation but the one i wrote was one i got from my sensei and it seemed to check out with my math teacher when i asked him.

I know Yari, and thanks for the reminder, I will keep that in mind but i still wish to develope myself more physicaly. thanks:asian:

[RoninWolf]

Ok, theoretically there are three basic types of resistance exercise.
The first is Isometric - this is where you exert strength without moving. Pushing against a wall would be an example.
The second, the name of which escapes me just at the moment, is the type of resistance training where either you or the object giving the resistance moves. Weight training and pushups are both examples.
Finally there is Plyometrics, in which explosive movement is created in conjunction with your stretch reflex. Skipping, jumping, and pushups where your hands leave the ground are all examples of this.
And yes, plyometrics, like weight training is initially about the recruitment of muscle fibres, but like weight training, it will eventually develop those fibres as well.
It should be noted that some plyometric exercises can be dangerous, but plyometrics in general does build explosive power.

[kenposcum]

Another type of exercise I employ periodically is called isometrics (hold on, deathtrap!). This is essentially straining against a fixed object as hard as possible. So, to improve your punch(let's say it's a right reverse punch), get in your stance facing a wall, turn as though you were throwing the punch, place your fist (just the striking knuckles!) against the wall and PUSH as hard as you can, WITH YOUR WHOLE BODY, for about 6-10 seconds.
This helped me, it'll help you.

[FUZZYJ692000]

I agree with the isometrics. My Sensei has us still do that every once in a while. A little twist here though, you don't have to have a fixed object that you push against. Instead of throwing your techniques at full power do it much slower. Ex...Front kick: chamber your kick, execute kick, re-chamber, and set down. This should take you about 10 seconds. This does help with your speed, plus it helps clean up your technique too. At first don't do it everyday because it will strain your muscles because you are using more of them that you didn't use before. Have fun.

[bscastro]

Too big things which will help you with your speed.
1) Getting stronger. There are many ways to do this.
2) Making your techniques as efficient as possible. Using a jab as an example, I'm always trying to cut down on my excess movements. My instructor will sometimes flash a focus mitt at me. If he senses a "wind-up" he flips the mitt down. It's taught me to become non-telegraphic and to cut out any unecessary movements.
3) Timing is a big thing, as was mentioned before. Timing is what makes speed look good.

Cheers,
Bryan

[ECYili]

One piece of equipment that I use that is probably one of the best all around things you can use for MA training is a common candle.

Candle trainning greatly improves speed, body actions, stances, root, focuses your technique, timing and your precision. The object to blow the candle out with any technque by not going past it which would act more like a fan but by stopping about 2-3 inches away. Only a sharp fast strike with proper technique, stance and body action will put out the candle. You can use kicks just the same the only difference with the kicks is that you snap the kick back to suck out the flame instead of blowing it out.

The height of the candle for your hand strikes should be about sternum to neck height and for your kicks is about waist height. The best types of candles to use are the stick candles, that way the last alot longer then those small ones.

Important note: If you don't feel like scrapeing dried wax off of your walls and floors put something behind the candles and on the floor cause you will hit your candles and wax will go a flying.

Just my 2 cents

Dan

[Yari]

Originally posted by ECYili

One piece of equipment that I use that is probably one of the best all around things you can use for MA training is a common candle.

Candle trainning greatly improves speed, body actions, stances, root, focuses your technique, timing and your precision. The object to blow the candle out with any technque by not going past it which would act more like a fan but by stopping about 2-3 inches away. Only a sharp fast strike with proper technique, stance and body action will put out the candle. You can use kicks just the same the only difference with the kicks is that you snap the kick back to suck out the flame instead of blowing it out.

The height of the candle for your hand strikes should be about sternum to neck height and for your kicks is about waist height. The best types of candles to use are the stick candles, that way the last alot longer then those small ones.

Important note: If you don't feel like scrapeing dried wax off of your walls and floors put something behind the candles and on the floor cause you will hit your candles and wax will go a flying.

Just my 2 cents

Dan

It's this more of a test than a way of pratice?
I've never tried it though, so I might be wrong.

/Yari

[ECYili]

No it's not a test. Though the candle doesn't discriminate, it will show you and anyone else that tries where their technique is flawed.
But this a form of daily practice. If you practice everyday for 30 days your speed will double and so on after that.

Once you of built up your speed to where you can put the candle out from about 5-6 inches away you put 2 of them together and start over. After that then there are other practices.

Dan

[Deathtrap101]

cool thanks.

[cdhall]

I skimmed this thread so my apologies if this has been addressed.
But "Relax."
The more relaxed you are the faster you will be and Mr. Parker Jr even teaches that being relaxed will help you hit harder and activate nerve points.

These may also be helpful as I think they all relate to speed and being relaxed:

"The more relaxed you are the faster you will be."
-Bruce Lee

"When skin meets skin, tension begins."
and
"Anger can often constipate your retaliatory efforts."
-SGM Parker

:asian:

[sweeper]

kinectic and force are not the same thing, so you are both correct.

I think the second form of exercise is called isotonic (constant preasure).

[Baoquan]

Is it not kinectic energy = half mass x speed squared?

this is basically true, but actual deliverable power is realised through intertia - which is the inclination for any object to stay in its current frame of reference..or more accurately (from Mirriam-Webster)

a property of matter by which it remains at rest or in uniform motion in the same straight line unless acted upon by some external force

The "external force" would be whatever u r hitting. Now, the inclination of an object to maintain its velocity relates to its mass - the heavier an object, the longer it will maintain its velocity; forces of acceleration (in this case the attempt to reduce the velocity of ur fist/foot) have less effect on the velocity of heavier objects...which is why a coal train moving at 20mph will hit a brick wall and keep moving at close to 20mph, while a car moving at 30mph will hit the wall and stop.

so while force=mass x velocity(2), slower heavier objects will deliver more force due to their inclination to keep moving.... which is why big slow guys generally hit "harder" than smaller faster guys. Its not that they generate more force, but more gets delivered. Look at Butterbean....he is huge, slow, and his hand speed sucks...but he delivers A LOT of power.

Sorry about that. Didnt mean to give a physics lesson. but i went through the same thing when i was 15..i was 6'0' and 140 lbs (yes, that skinny) and wanted to develop more power. More speed does generate more power, but doesnt deliver all that power. More mass generates power at a lower rate, but delivers more of it.

The most important thing i learnt while fencing is that "Speed will come with technique". When u get ur techniques right, your muscle memory will only fire the muscles you need to perform the necessary movement. This delivers more speed because the thing that slows u down is tension in anterior muscles.

And Yari is right, timing delivers more power, becuase u are using the opponents energy against him....which is why a well timed left hook delivers more knockouts than a freight-train style over-hand right.

my 0.02c

[Deathtrap101]

man that candle thing was harderthan i thought, i tried to stay perfectly relaxed and throw the punch as fast as i could and steady as i could and i must of threw like 60 punches and blew it out 5 times. I did it life 4 times wihtin the first 20 punches and than i was having a hell of a time... but ill keep doing it both hands everyday, feet too.

[Yari]

Originally posted by Deathtrap101

man that candle thing was harderthan i thought, i tried to stay perfectly relaxed and throw the punch as fast as i could and steady as i could and i must of threw like 60 punches and blew it out 5 times. I did it life 4 times wihtin the first 20 punches and than i was having a hell of a time... but ill keep doing it both hands everyday, feet too.

Have you become faster?

/Yari

[sweeper]

baoquan, force is force. it doesn't matter the ratio of mass to acceleration a given amount of force is equal, that is to say a 20 pound object moving at 10 miles an hour requires as much force to stop as a 10 pound object moving at 20 miles an hour. So you have to gennerate more force to accelerate a given weight to a higher velocity in a given amount of time and to stop the punch you need to absorb more energy if the given object (fist) is traveling faster.

"slower heavier objects will deliver more force due to their inclination to keep moving.... which is why big slow guys generally hit "harder" than smaller faster guys."

this isn't realy true, an object moving half the speed of another object but having twice the mass will have an equal amount of enertia. So when a bigger guy hits harder it's because they actualy do generate more force than the small faster guy. look at it this way, say you are motovating a given mass (your arm, and just your arm) say the light guy's arm weighs 10 pounds and the big guys arm weighs 30 pounds, now lets say the little guy can accelerate his arm to 80 mph and the big guy can only accelerate it to 40 mph, that big guy will generate more force because he has more mass even though he's moving it at half the speed, however there is also the factor of follow through, you will generate more force by following through on your blows than by relaxing after contact..

[Baoquan]

yes, this is true (if objects are accelerating at same rate, but (as i understand it) the delivery of power to an object also relates to the third law..equal and opposite reaction.

[BTW..the two objects u stated above might have equal force, but vastly different kinetic energy..if KE=1/2 mass x velocity (2) then (1) 10/2 x 20(2) = 2000, and (2) 20/2 x 10(2) equals 1000. however KE falls away at a geometric rate when forces of acceleration are applied....].

If u punch a small object, it moves. you punch a big object, you move...the inclination of an object, in this case you, to stay in current frame of reference, relates to the force (mass x accel) applied in both directions. a big guy effecting the same force (in the arm) as a small guy (in the arm) will deliver more, because a small guy (having less mass) will move more than a big guy (having more mass) away from the opposing object, and thus power delivered forward is lessened as puncher moves away...
he has less inclination to maintain frame of reference, therefore forces of accelration have more detrimental effect on his velocity and therefore, kinetic energy (KE= 1/2 mass x velocity(2)).

same way you will throw a ball 50 meters when standing on the ground, but will throw it 20 and move backwards if you are standing on a skateboard....the force generated is the same, but delivery is different as defined by your inclination to stay in motion (or still).

force = force in a specific moment, but acceleration relates to time and punches aren't instantaneous.

This all relates to you point that


however there is also the factor of follow through, you will generate more force by following through on your blows than by relaxing after contact..

my point related to the ability of objects to "follow through", and acceleration on objects of equal force but differing mass.

i think this is all true..but i've been known to be wrong.:p

[ECYili]

yeah Deathtrap that's what usually happens. Your good for the first few then after that it's all down hill. Hint: don't think about punching faster or try too hard, just punch. It's good that your still doing it everyday. Alot of people get to frustrated and quit. Keep it up!

Dan

[sweeper]

Ok I see where we are disagreing, two objects with equal kenetic energy yet differing mass will react diffrently than two objects with the same momentum and differing mass, in the case of the kinetic energy scale the more massive object in a direct colision will generate more force where as in the case of momentum the force will be equal.

I don't think kinetic energy is a good method of measuring power in a fight. the reason is unless you can transfer 100% of that kenetic energy to your target you will not generate optimal force. measuring energy in terms of kinetic energy works well for high speed colisions where there isn't sufficiant time for objects to absorb energy by deforming (such as say a metiorite hitting the earths atmosphere at several thousand miles per hour) but it doesn't work well when calculating power in a fight because of the relativly low speed of the object's movement. a human's body is largely composed of water and with the exception of our skeletal structure we contain alot of liquid, as a result we absorb (relativly safely) kinetic energy at low speed colisions wich throws off the actual effects of that energy. That's why I think the force and momentum scales work better.

[Baoquan]

hmmm..agreed. Very good point.

coming back to the original piont, i think my dad says it best (and he don't know a damn thing about physics) -

"It's good to be big. It's better to be good. It's best to be big AND good."

good to meet someone who doesn't think physics and arts are exclusive occupations :D

Cheers

Bao

[sweeper]

yeah, I tihnk having some knowledge of physics can give you an unique perspective on martial arts, I think knowledge of physics and kinesiology can help out your understanding of proper technique.

[Baoquan]

totally. I have a friend who is a keneisiologist and athlete, who helped me a lot with both my MA and climbing..and her husband, who is an Ex-CFL tight end taught me how to train isotonics... made me better, faster, stronger!!

unfortunately, she went back to Canada to join the winter olympic team....

i hate it when that happens.

[Deathtrap101]

well today was either my 2nd or 3rd day of candle training.....i still cant put it out on command, the best i did was blew it out twice in 4 punches. But since yesterday i am a bit better, though i still cant blow it out with my left hand :mad: but ill keep doing it. i tired counting backwards from 100 with every punch i counted back one and i got to 25 and blew it out 4 times. after that it was hell....:(

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Deathtrap101

Now i am fairly fast(i think), but i still would like more advice on how to be faster. There are big guys out there who can punch pretty damn hard. Im pretty big compared to alot of guys my age (15yo 6' , 168lbs) and im in shape. What workouts can i do to be faster and become stronger, because FORCE=MASS X ACCELERATION. any response would be good, thanks.

:asian:
How fast you run doesn't necessarily mean you can punch 12 times a second.

Develop your CNS. That's a big factor. Then develop your speed physically (as in the muscles) with plyometrics and other drills.

[Roland]

In other words, stay relaxed, tension just slows you down!

Of course, speed is just an illusion anyway!

[Deathtrap101]

Well i stopped teh candle training for a while and i just go back to it once and a while just to see if i can do it. And now i can just about put out the flame on command.

Its nice to understand the physics of punches but now i realy could give a damn about the physics in a punch,lol. Just practice throwing hard 'fast' punches. Keep your arm relaxed, twist hip, keep your elbow in just straightening your arm as hard and fast as you can, keeping the biscep relaxed untill the peak of your punch and then pull it back.(i know im forgeting stuff and leaving out details, but hey! im tired)

[ECYili]

I'm not sure if I'm getting confused about what you wrote deathdrop but it sounds like to me that after you throw your punch, your snapping it back quiclky. If that is so then your not doing it correctly. What it sounds like your doing is "sucking" the flame out. you'll be able to tell by which way the falme is going when it goes out. What you want to do is blow the flame out with a thrust. So don't snap your arm back. But it still sounds like your definately on the right track by keeping your elbow down and into your body and snapping the waist. Don't forget to press your back heel in into the ground first to start your movement. Your hips will turn automaticaly and incress the speed and momentum.

Keep it up!!

Dan :asian: :D

[Samurai]

I simple way to become quicker is to CUT OUT THE EXCESS MOVEMENTS in a punch/kick/lock/etc.

For example: Do not start your punch from a "chambered hip" position but instead start the punch from a more extented position. I always aim my leadhand (Right side forward for me) at the other guys nose. That way I as blast him when it is open.

Doing the punch S-L-O-W will teach you what muscles are needed and what ones you can relax and not use. It is amazing how many muscles hold you back when you first try to punch.
Thanks
jeremy bays