Eagle Claw Locking Sets

[dmax999]

Anyone out there practice Eagle Claw and learn the locking sets?

I know the first 2, but know there are 108. Only know of one person in the US that knows all 108. Just curious if anyone else knows at least one or more, or if there are any other Eagle Claw readers here.

[pete]

i train in dr yang, jwing-ming's chin na which is mainly derived from shaolin white crane but includes some eagle claw variations. i found this surfing a while back and printed it out...

http://www.lilylaueagleclaw.com/eag_chinnakf.html

[7starmantis]

Man, I remember a seminar we did with her, she is very good at eagle claw, very good. I just remember after she would show you something she would always say, "See, hurt very much!". And she was right!

7sm

[dmax999]

The first two shown by your link are similar to what I know, but not quite the same. It is also a different Eagle Claw system then I know. Interesting because I never even considered a different Eagle Claw system would have similar locking sets.

I learn from a student of a student of Grandmaster Shum, the only one I know that knows all 108 sets.
http://www.yingjowpai.com/

[dmax999]

Found out some information about the Lily Lau Eagle Claw. It actually is supposed to be the same as what I am learning. Grandmaster Shum learned Eagle Claw from Lily Lau's father.

The rumor is also that she or her sister were never taught Eagle Claw from their father either, they were too young by the time he died. They learned it from one of Grandmaster Shum's students (name witheld due to it just being a rumor). Apparently they don't even recognize Grandmaster Shum as a legitimate teacher either, some strange fued that I have no information about.

[Samantha K]

Anyone out there practice Eagle Claw and learn the locking sets?

I know the first 2, but know there are 108. Only know of one person in the US that knows all 108. Just curious if anyone else knows at least one or more, or if there are any other Eagle Claw readers here.
I am brand new to this school, but I know the owner Master Rothrock knows them.

[arnisador]

Check out these threads also (which, I notice, appear in the Similar Threads box below, though usually those threads seem pretty irrelevant):
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16477
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9494
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1739

[dmax999]

Rothrock should know most of them, but I wasn't sure one way or the other. He is one of Grandmaster Shaum's top three students from what I hear. Rothrock is supposed to be really really good at the Eagle Claw forms, which is what the locking sets technically are.

Never met him personally, but I have met his wife Cynthia (the movie star).

If you can, find out if he knows all 108 or just the first 102 or some subset. I understand that the last 6 are very rarely taught to anyone.

[Samantha K]

Rothrock should know most of them, but I wasn't sure one way or the other. He is one of Grandmaster Shaum's top three students from what I hear. Rothrock is supposed to be really really good at the Eagle Claw forms, which is what the locking sets technically are.

Never met him personally, but I have met his wife Cynthia (the movie star).

If you can, find out if he knows all 108 or just the first 102 or some subset. I understand that the last 6 are very rarely taught to anyone.
Well, one of the little tri-fold advertisement flyers I got when I started states he knows all 108, among quite a few other things. I personally am quite excited to be training in his school.

[dmax999]

Good luck with it Samantha. From all that I know he is very skilled and has true lineage in Eagle Claw. My suggestions would be to work on flexibility, getting stances as low as they should be, and start doing fingertip pushups right away. It takes a long time to get into shape to do good Eagle Claw, and getting the claw strength with fingertip pushups is taking me the longest to get down.

[Shaolinwind]

Well, one of the little tri-fold advertisement flyers I got when I started states he knows all 108, among quite a few other things. I personally am quite excited to be training in his school.
Yup, Master Rothrock most definetely knows all 108.

[MingTheMerciless]

And Eagle Claw Kung Fu seem like Aikido and Jujutsu and I think that it may go well with my Wing Chun/Jun Fan/JKD trapping technique .

So do anyone know is there any Eagle Claw in Toronto ?

[Victor Smith]

Hi,

I've been a friend, student of Rothrock Laoshi for three decades. He is very conversant with the entire Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai and there are many locking sets in addition to the 108. BTW the first 30 of them are found in Shum Leung's "The Secrets of Eagle Claw Kung Fu - Ying Jow Pai' published by Tuttle Press in 2001, and in turn were privately published by him in 1980.

On YouTube you can find a lot of Eagle Claw video in the Shum lineage at http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=videoport&p=r

BTW the 108 locking set is much more than just locking, but includes various sparring work to set up the lock and is a part of the goal of training, if you understand the lock, you have to know how to set it up.

Different basic tools such as the Eagle Claw principles show some of the locks and how they are countered too.

The Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai is a very complete art covering a wide range of technique series.

Dozens of forms, many weapons sets, many two person sets, complete sparring practices.

Personally I started with Rothrock Laoshi as a Tai Chi students, of which I am still, and studied small portions of several other systems just to be knowledgable. He is an extremely qualified instructor.

I hope this is helpful.

[Ninebird8]

Howdy! I have been in Ying Jow for almost 25 years along with my two other Northern styles, Nine Birds and Long fist, as well as Southern white crane. My classmate is Joel Rodriguez, one of 6 masters under our master Leung Shum, and while I have learned alot of the system (through the first 60 or so locks of jow da cum Na) and over 30 Ying jow forms, Joel has learned all 78 forms and 105 of the 108 locks. In March 2008, we had a family gathering in NYC with Sifu and enjoyed it very much, though the people who trained when I did in the early 1980s to mid 1990s were the hard core group at 34th and 9th. Although I have trained under two other great masters, Ying Jow and Sifu are my heart.

I can put you in touch with Joel if you go to eagleclawatl.com in Atlanta.

Hope this helps.

[Ninebird8]

Victor, I saw your Laoshi in NYC during the family gathering and he di d not look well?! Sifu did not look well either. Your sifu knows Joel quite well as well as my seniors Cecil, Benson, Jenny, Mark, etc. Sooo...I would be your Uncle in a way and am know in the school as Texas Mike. It is an honor to meet a student of Ernie's!!

[Ninebird8]

One other comment: since I only got into the 60s on the locks before I started under my Shaolin master and my current master, Joel has told me that locks 103-108 are up to the individual master to figure out, then present to Sifu for his agreement or approval. From what I understand, those locks are almost a summary or a compilation of the first 103. May be wrong, but that is how it has been explained. Also, my understanding is that only Cecil, Benson, Ernie, Joel, and maybe one other Master under our sifu have over 100 locks and their sequences. If so, a very exclusive and wonderful group!!

[Ninebird8]

To an earlier comment about someone on here being from Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. I am fortunate in that two of my three masters are Sifu Jeff Bolt, senior student of Dr. Yang since 1973, and Sigung Leung Shum of Ying Jow Pai eagle claw. To clear up lineage hopefully once and for all, Chan Tzi Ching taught Lau Fat Mon. Lau Fat Mon, besides teaching his daughters Lily and Gini, also had a son named James who I understand learned much more than they did but has remained behind the scenes. Ng Wei was Grandmaster Lau's senior disciple and godson. Leung Shum, along with his older sihing, Lock Shum (may be incorrect on the full name here), and no relation, trained under Ng Wei and became one of his two senior students and his godson. There is an Eagle Claw historian, and classmate, Eric Hargrove who has kept much closer track of this lineage than myself. He has traced it back I believe to Fan Tzi Pai and the northern kicks being combined years ago.

As a senior under Sifu Bolt and a long time practitioner under Sigung Shum (again, my classmates were people like Joel Rodriguez and my sihings were Benson Lee, Mark Shan, Cecil Jordan, Gi, Frank Marrero,David Chin, etc.) I have had exposure to both the eagle locks and the chin na from Dr. Yang through Jeff's teachings and Dr. Yang's frequent visits to Texas in the 90s and early 2000s. One of my classmates, Kevin Boyd, is a recognized chin na instructor under both Dr. Yang and Jeff Bolt. Sooooo.....I currently have a videotape of Sigung Shum and 4 seniors doing the 108 locks and most of the 78 forms from 1988-89 and on the second half of the tape Dr. Yang doing almost 150 chin na locks slowly, medium, then fast with lead ins!! My most treasured possession, also from the late 1980s. I can tell you that both Sigung Shum and Dr. Yang, as well as my chin na Sifu Jeff Bolt, are all rather painful and disturbing in their ability to control you in gradations, especially Dr. Yang's ability to control with just your pinky finger, hence the nickname we gave him of Sifu Pinky!!

What separates both of these gentlemen in their locks, besides everything else, is the underestimated ability to use their incredible footwork to set up the locks and once applied, to employ devestating fa jing that unseats bone, muscle, and/or tendon. Footwork in chin na is always neglected and very important! After 31 years of training, I am still in awe of all three of these great masters, and the chin na both the white crane and eagle claw schools propagate are incredible (yes, I am prejudiced...LOL!). Also, all three also teach a high level of tai chi chin na that is interesting on its own, employing silk reeling, fa jing, and great rooting/sinking to employ the chin na. Sigung Shum's Wu style and Jeff's/Dr. Yang's Yang style are both great at this.

There is one great book by Sigung Shum that show the first 36 locks and many books by Dr. Yang showing too many to count. There is also a 4 part two person chin na set that my Sifu Jeff Bolt created that we learned as well as many two person sets in Ying Jow, including hop chuen and Yat Ling But.

Sorry I rattled on, but these two masters are the cream of the chin na crop to me!!! I am so lucky to have trained under both Sigung Shum and Sifu Bolt.

As far as the lineage comments above, that is to the best of my knowledge. Rumor is that Gini and Lili learned until their dad died while they were teenagers but not sure how they completed the entire Ying Jow style after that....I would ask that someone from their branch detail that for us.

[Victor Smith]

Ninebird,

Sorry I just noticed your reply.

Rothrock Laoshi is a friend as well as my instructor, but I am but a minor dabbler in the Chinese arts, most of my studies with him, excpet for my Yang Tai Chi and Wu TCC, were to become more knowledgable about the Chinese arts.

He has undergone the slings and arrows of outrageous fate with his health but as I understand he's stronger now, I'm sure it changes day by day.
I know he works hard to share his knowledge of Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai with his students.

He is one of the most capable and knowledgable martial artists I have trained with.

It's interesting you mention Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, for we have another minor connection. I live in New Hampshire. 20 years ago my wife had the time to take a 6 month dual clinic with Dr. Yang both on Tai Chi and Chin Na, separately. While I've met him but am not his student, but my wife would always work me over after class asking me to grab her.

His chinna is extremely painful, but then so is Laoshi's.

I will aways respect those who can give me pain, the universal martial constant.

[Ninebird8]

Victor, you have no idea how honored and still in awe of the fact that two of my three teachers are top locking and chin na masters. To be able to learn the 108 locks from Sifu Shum (now Sigung of course but there are 7 masters under Sifu, and my training brother Joel Rodriguea knows all 78 forms and 104 of the 108 locks and is soon to test the other 4 with him to see if he has all of them. I know just over 30 Ying jow forms, jow da cum na, and just over 50 of the locks. I have learned from the senior of Dr. Yang, too for 12 years!!), and from the senior of Dr. Yang are gifts I cannot repay!! And, yes, between Sifu Shum, Jeff Bolt, and Dr. Yang, boy do my wrists hurt most of the time...LOL!! And, my training bro from Ying Jow hurts too. Benson Lee has recently helped my Shaolin bro find a job in hotel Management.

Victor, it was good to finally see Ernie and all of them in NYC in March. I love the fact our shirts from that event say, "Ying Jow Family Gathering!" I love that!

It is good to hear he is doing better.

Maybe we can meet some day.

God bless.

[chrispillertkd]

To an earlier comment about someone on here being from Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. I am fortunate in that two of my three masters are Sifu Jeff Bolt, senior student of Dr. Yang since 1973, and Sigung Leung Shum of Ying Jow Pai eagle claw. To clear up lineage hopefully once and for all, Chan Tzi Ching taught Lau Fat Mon. Lau Fat Mon, besides teaching his daughters Lily and Gini, also had a son named James who I understand learned much more than they did but has remained behind the scenes.

I can't speak to any of the lineage debates in this thread but what I will say is that I had the pleasure of taking a seminar from James Lau back in the 1990's at Sifu Henry Chung's School of Praying Mantis. He is phenomenal. I no longer train in CMA (I did Praying Mantis for a brief time, about a year) but have been in MA's for 22 years now and have seen very few people as proficient as he was. I remember having a partner that was quite a bit larger than I am and James Lau was throwing this guy around like it was nothing when he helped me apply a technique I was having trouble with.

Again, the man was simply amazing.

Pax,

Chris

[Ninebird8]

Chris, James Lau is the older brother of Gini and Lili Lau of the Lau Fat Mon family. I believe Lili and Gini were 18 and 16 when their father died and James was in his 20s. Again, my Ying Jow sifu, Leung Shum, was along with Shum Lock, his sihing, the elder student of Ng Wei, who was his godfather and the godson of Grandmaster Lau. I do not know if the Lau sisters actually finished the complete system or not, but it does not matter in my mind as long as this beautiful system is kept alive. On another forum,there is argument about Henry Poo Yee and Southern mantis. A few years ago Inside Kung Fu tried to start a controversy, as they always do, and tried to set the Lau branch against the Shum heritage. Luckily, that was unsuccessful as both sides are great Ying Jow and as long as the system grows and prospers, who cares? My sidei in kung fu, but sihing in Ying Jow and classmate, Joel Rodriguez has had a Ying Jow school in Atlanta for 15 years, and he is one of 7 ranked masters under Sigung Shum. Benson Lee, one of two seniors to Sifu, lives in LA and has a school in Sacramento. He has been with Sifu doing Eagle claw I believe for about 35 years.

I am glad you enjoyed it. As I have stated, I am so lucky that I learned chin na from two greats, Leung Shum and Jeff Bolt (senior of Dr. Yang Jwing MIng).

[chrispillertkd]

Chris, James Lau is the older brother of Gini and Lili Lau of the Lau Fat Mon family. I believe Lili and Gini were 18 and 16 when their father died and James was in his 20s.

Actually, IIRC, James Lau is Lily and Gini Lau's younger brother. This is born out by photo's on Lily Lau's website which shows Lau Fat Man's funeral. Their ages in the pictures are listed as Lily being 19, Gini being 11 and James being 8 at the time of their father's death.

As for who trained James, Gini and Lily after Lau Fat Man's death Sifu Henry Chung might know that. His father was best man at Lau Fat Man's wedding and from what I recall the families have a lot of respect for each other.

Pax,

Chris

[Ninebird8]

Chris, that would be cool if you could find that out. By the way, since you mention Henry Chung, we have another, ahem, small connection. One of my best friends in the arts who I have known since age 12 is John Cheng, who is now in California. His masters are Raymond Fogg, Ling Kam Wing, and I believe for awhile Henry Chung. I met Master Chung in Dallas once when he gave a demo as a guest of Raymond Fogg and Jimmy Wong. Great mantis!! His reminded me a little bit of Brendon Lai's!! As I said, my classmate Eric Hargrove is the Ying Jow historian I know best, besides my Sifu Leung Shum, but I would really like to know how old the Lau sisters were when their great father died and who they finished their eagle claw training with? At this time, the fact we have a very strong Ying Jow presence in California with the Lau sisters, Benson Lee (2nd or 3rd in line from Sigung Shum), three other NYC branch in California plus Ken Edwards, and Donald Waith in Iowa, plus of course all the ones on the East Coast, my fervant hope is the TRADITIONAL jow da cum na is never lost! Thanks Chris and I stand corrected on the Lau sibling rank...LOL!!! I have two older sisters myself so I understand!!!!

[chrispillertkd]

If Sifu Cheng is the man I'm thinking of I believe I've seen him demonstrate a few times at Sifu Chung's tournament in Michigan. Very impressive gentleman!

Pax,

Chris

[Codeboy]

Yes, my Sifu Chung and Sigong Chung are close to the Lau family. Here is a little history from Sifu's website:

http://www.chungsprayingmantis.com/sifuchung.htm

[Ninebird8]

Master Chung also taught Raymond Fogg, John Cheng's original teacher. Raymond learned from Master Chung, Raymond Nelson in New York, and Wah lum from Chan Pui in Florida. I also believe he picked up some from Grandmaster Lai as well but I am not sure, would have to ask John about that. Master Chung did a couple of mantis sets at Jimmy Wong's Tai chi legacy in Dallas.

[Victor Smith]

I just found these the last week.

The following 2 person set shows the underlying principles of Faan Tai Ying Jow Pai.Eagle Claw Fighting Principles -
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pSS169xznSA (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pSS169xznSA)

Another Eagle Claw 2 person set, based on Nothern Chinese principles which are incorporated into Eagle Claw
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=8i0NalQ1UdU (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=8i0NalQ1UdU)

Finally a very good video from 1985, showing IMO a representative Eagle Claw form, the Northern 2 person set, a staff set and I belive the first 10 sequences of the 108 locking form.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4a6R3UYUc (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4a6R3UYUc)

Alas I'm not a Eagle Claw styslist, I had studied Hon Kuen long ago and have had introduction to some of the principles and initial 108 locks. What Ernest Rothrock shared with me over the years, especially from being on the receiving end, helps me appreciate the depth of this system.

[arnisador]

Cool!

[Ninebird8]

If you think hung kuen is cool, have Ernie show you lin kuen!! Even longer and more comprehensive, the dictionary of Ying Jow!!

[Victor Smith]

Ninebird8,

I agree with you about Lin Kuen. I never asked what to study, Ernest shared Hon Kuen because he flet it would help me undestand the range of the system.

LIn Kuen's 50 rows of techniques is one of the more unreal studies I've ever seen, anywhere.

[Ninebird8]

I learned hung kuen but back in the day lin kuen was the last form before you learned the Ying jow drunken form, the last form of 78 that you learn in the system. Lin kuen contains basically the movements of the entire jow da cum na. My brother in Ying Jow (I am his senior in kung fu by 6 years but he is now my senior in Ying Jow and is one of 7 masters under Sigung Shum) says ideally it takes 12 and a half to 15 minutes to run properly compare to a normal length Northern form of 2 and 1/2 minutes!! Nowdays, under the new ranking system, before you had to know 30-40 forms and 50 locks for instructor level in Ying Jow, now it has been reduced from my understanding to 22 forms and 36 locks. Then, for master level it is of course much higher under the old rules. People like Joel, my sihings Benson, Cecil, Ernie, etc., took much longer to make it than today. Like everything else, things were eased as the years went by. I could not test my Shaolin students like I was tested by my Wudan master.

Ying Jow, Preying mantis, northern bak lum snake, and northern white crane are beautiful systems, but YJP, PM, and WC were and are the great chin na and locking systems, in my opinion.

[Nitedragon89]

PM is definetly a very intricated chin na system

[ngokfei]

Just found this thread.

Some correction to the lineage thing:

Lau Kai Man and Chan Tzi Ching were classmates under Lau Cheng You.

Lau Fat Man studied under Lau Kai Man primarily and then is said to have received some tutoring while in the Jing Mo under chan Tzi Ching.

Ng Wai Nung was a student of Chan Tzi Ching for 5 years. When CTZ left he futhered his training under Lau Fat Man along with 2 other Classmates and was immediately made assistant instructors.

It is true that Most of the Lau Family were very young at the time whe their father Lau Fat man Died. it was primarily Lo Yuen Gan who took over the Head Teaching position of the Lau Family Gym. Ng Wai Nung already had a school of his own but would assist during Demonstrations as well as instruction in some of the minor sets that he knew.

The Lau Family (primarily Lilly, Gini & James) are the Lineage Holders of the Lau Family.

In regards to the 108 Locking Hands, it is originally called Yue Shi San Shou. One thing to understand is that there is not one master list on what the locks or what order they are taught in.

The 108 Locks of the Shum Lineage comes from Ng Wai Nung who took time to organized them into the sets of 10. Shum Leung is the one who added the 3 count set up used before each Lock.

The same goes for the Huhng Kuen and Lin Kuen forms as well. Chan Tzi Ching was much the innovator. He added 2 additional roads to the Huhng Kuen set to make it 12 Roads. Also his versions of Lin Kuen vary and are different to what came down through the LFM Lineage.

Also the term Master in the Shum School is a recent addition from about 1994. This was used to differentiate from those who had finished the Official Ranking and those that had learned the majority of the entire system (including alot o the minor hand and weapon sets).

The Term Master=Sifu. Instructr=Gao Lin.

As for the locks, many have learned them in recent years due to the openess and availabitiy. The majority of students know 1-80. Only about 10 individuals know the 91-100. And I believe only 4 know up to 108 - which are primarily displayed as Spinal Cord Attacks.

One thing to keep in mind is that Fan Zi (Bafanshou/bashanfan) is what todays Eagleclaw is Built from and can be traced back some 10 generations.

hope this was founded informative

[Ninebird8]

As usual, brother Ngok Fei has the answers when it comes to lineage in this branch of Ying jow.

[ngokfei]

thank you

For years spent all my time mastering my fighting skills. Once I became one of "YJP's 5 tigers" I didn't know what to do with myself.

I took my Sifu's advice and began to teach but the majority of the my juniors (and some seniors) couldn't make the commitment to classes intensity. So I then opened up my own school (actually the 4th or 5th to originally do so).

Still wasn't satisified.

In order to balance it out and become a "true" Master my Sifu said it was necessary to dive into the scholarly aspects as well.

In the end i've obtained the position/status of a High Level Teacher.

"Mo Shi Tao"

Now on to the next challenge!!!!

[Ninebird8]

Brother Eric, did not know you attained that rank, congrats!! Are you now on the same level as Cecil, Benson, Ernie, Joel, Julio, Frank, etc? Master or instructor? Hate that you were not there in March but hope you can be for March 2009 in LA. God bless!!

[ngokfei]

yes its a great feeling when your sifu gives you praise on the level of skill attained. But keeps you motivated to achieve even higher learning.

Too many paper master's out there.

To be a Master of Skill then its pretty easy to demonstrate it publicly.

But to be a Master Level Teacher that only show's through your students achievements.

Funny how I see so many "masters" today but they haven't produced one advanced level student. Well thats the times we live in I guess.

[Ninebird8]

Absolutely Ngok.....and, since I know you I know you have great experience at that level as have I with both our common sifu and my two other teachers. You raise a good point...in the old days the belief was that if you took 5 seniors of a master, each had captured a part of him and banded together would be the total skills of the master. In fact, very hard to even get students today to go through what we went through!! By the way, wife and I are going down to Costa Rica and will see Sifu's nephew and family while down there. You should write a historical book about the style!

[Ninebird8]

Sifu paid me a high compliment lately when he told our brother in Atlanta that my internal skill was now at a high level,and I now had control....LOL!! Thanks to Jeff, Sifu, and Dr.Yang....LOL! All this means is to keep practicing....someday, we might have a small part of Sifu's skill!!

[ngokfei]

nah - for me the greatest compliment would be for a student to exceed their sifu/master's knowledge and skill.

If it takes 5 individuals to learn someone's skill, there is something wrong here. Probably he has some lousy/lazy students or just wasn't a good teacher.

Nope no intentions of writing a book. that would only give street credit to all those paper Masters I was talking about. they sure talk a good game about how good they are but when it comes to demonstrating or teaching the skill they come up pretty short. Especially when it comes to the theory, principles and philosophy of the Eagle Claw Style. You wouldn't believe how many people cut and paste this information from other styles and try to pass it off as Eagle Claw Terminology, etc. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire.

In future only the true disciples should and will be recognized. There is a plague of Video Tape Masters spreading throughout the world as it is.

[Ninebird8]

I humbly disagree, in that should your goal really be to surpass or supplant your master's skill rather than master yourself? I totally agree with you though about the paper masters, but that is a result of the softening of the type of training regimens those of us who have been in the CMA over 25-30 years went through with our teachers. When I was at the family gathering in March, it was obvious who had trained the old way and who had not, especially in the stancework, the fa jing, the application, and the sparring. Too, most people will not stay long enough to learn an intricate style and its hidden secrets.

I understand your sentiment not to write a book, but I suggest it only because the history should not be lost! Though great disciples like Cecil Jordan, Benson Lee, Ernie Rothrock, Joel Rodriguez, Julio Perez, Eric Cintron, Gi, Mark Shou, Gary Mark, Donald Walth, Delroy Miller, Pat Batista, etc. will keep it alive and growing!!

[ngokfei]

What do you mean by mastering yourself? That is pretty vague. There are many things to attempt at mastering in the course of one's life time.

If you aren't able to Master your teacher's skill how do you ever plan to expand your knowledge?

I see you mention the term Disciples. If we were to acquate this title to anyone in the school it would only be to those individuals that had finished the ranking requirements (ie: obtaining a White Sash and the Sifu Title).
Not all of those you listed have achieved this.

In Traditional terms to become a disicple one would have to undergo the Bai Si ceremony, which Sifu doesn't believe in.

Sifu = Master and Sigung = Grandmaster, thats about it.

[Ninebird8]

I just spent the past week in Costa Rica with Sifu's nephew and had some very good discussions. During that time, Thomas Torres sent an email out to the eagle claw masters and Sifu about whether he should honor a request from one of his students to go through that ceremony and what purpose would it serve in Ying Jow. I would be very interested in the feedback of the seniors on this. Ngok Fei, from your experience studying Ying Jow history, was this ceremony ever actually performed in the style?

Thanks!

[ngokfei]

Mike

I think we've taken away from the threads topic already.

Best to send me your thoughts through PM/E-mail.

[Ninebird8]

Thanks Brother. Always an education! Always learn more about the style from ya.

[Ninebird8]

Just to let everyone know: March 27-29 in Los Angeles at the Hilton Glendale will be the yearly Ying Jow gathering to celebrate Sigung Leung Shum's birthday. In addition, it is his 35th anniversary teaching in this country. We are all looking forward to honoring this great man again.

[Nitedragon89]

Hey ninebird I found there is a eagle claw school in rancho santa marguerita near me have you ever heard of sifu pat dibattista

[Ninebird8]

Sorry not to get back to you sooner. Yes, Pat is a legitimate and ranked Master/Instructor under Leung Shum and his skills are very good. He is one of about 6 ranked Ng Wei branch (Leung Shum's teacher and godfather) teachers of Ying jow out in California. Look him up if he is still teaching out there.

[Yoshiyahu]

I know very little of Eagle claw. Only of what I have read and heard.

But doesn't Eagle claw also have the ability to rip flesh with its talons?

Also how do you guys train or develop fa jin?

[Ninebird8]

Yoshi, Sholom alecheim, baruch atah adonay! I will write an answer to types of training the hands from both my Ying Jow master and my Wudan Nine bird master (one of the birds is Shaolin eagle claw, a little different than Ying jow) tomorrow when I am back in the saddle on my own computer. Good Yom Tov, Happy Hannukah!

[Nitedragon89]

Yes he is located in rsm like almost next to me but tis kind of expensive, but I would like to do it, then we would be kung fu brothers. heh

Sorry not to get back to you sooner. Yes, Pat is a legitimate and ranked Master/Instructor under Leung Shum and his skills are very good. He is one of about 6 ranked Ng Wei branch (Leung Shum's teacher and godfather) teachers of Ying jow out in California. Look him up if he is still teaching out there.

[Victor Smith]

Nightdragon,

Pat is a good guy I've known him since he was a grasshopper studying under Ernest Rothrock. If you get the chance tell him Victor Smith send his regards.

[Ninebird8]

To answer Yoshi's inquiry on the claw training, I will answer it in two parts, one part Ying Jow and one part Shaolin eagle, under two of my three masters:

In Ying Jow:

1) We used the 5 finger pull in device, with rings at the end, metal springs at both ends, and use to pull in until we almost made a fist, 100-200 times each hand, several sets.
2) One hundred reps each hand of circle claw, hanging claw, and yin/yang claw, with the yin/yang claw usually done with a Ying Jow front kick in a certain turn and grasp drill. This technique is my brother's Joel Rodriguez favorite kick, and one he is known for, along with his Ying Jow sweeps.
3) Take plastic or glass water bottles of different weight, fill them with water, sand, buckshot, etc, and grasp the tops with your five fingers and hold the bottles in increasing times, then move in stance with the arms extended either out or forward.
4) Using the wooden dummy, grasp and pull the arms many times while turning the waist or sinking the root.
5) Perform the "Ten Punches," various sequence of stances with certain claws and punches.
6) Different drills where one would have a partner, and with stance movements do different claws to the arms of your partner, and then alternate with the partner doing the same.
7) Two person sets.
8) Joel and I use to get objects, either soft or hard, step off certain distances, and then throw the object where the other person had to catch it quickly out of the air with the Ying jow claws. Got pretty good after getting hit in the face or chest several times....LOL!
9) Sitting in mabu for up to 15-30 minutes with arms extended out, hands with fingers extended, while Sifu or seniors came by and checked to ensure sending chi through finger tips for straight hand strikes as well as claws. Good for splashing hands techniques, our senior Cecil Jordan to this day extraordinary with this!!

These were some of the drills we did to toughen our claw and locking capabilities. There are others, but loathe to mention them since they can be harmful without supervision/instruction of Sifu or someone like Joel, Cecil, Benson, Gi, Mark, etc.

In Wudan Shaolin Nine Bird, Shaolin Eagle:

1) In Shaolin eagle, the hand training is usually with the index finger, middle finger, and thumb or "Southern," along with the typical Ying Jow for the actual pull in or locking, while the other is used for striking.
2) Stripping tree bark with bare fingers, usually oak or other tough bark trees.
3) Pulling grass or mud while closing the fingers digging down up to 2-3 feet with both hands, alternatively.
4) Sitting in mabu horse stance with a partner, grasping each other's claw fingers, then pulling each other, maintaining the horse stance, and resisting allowing the fingers to be pried open.
5) Striking different surfaces with the three fingers, then pulling in tree branches with the locking claw. Also, using the yin/yang claw and fa jing, breaking branches in half with the upward and downward pressure of the hand movements.
6) Having progressively heavier bean bags with buckshot thrown at full speed at you and grasping them from the air.
7) Fingertip push-ups progressively from five fingers down to two fingers, while either supporting yourself or with weight on your back until you could support body weight of your partner. Pray your partner weighed 150 pounds like you did....LOL!!! No such luck!!!!
8) Ripping shirts, gis, etc. off partners, or when that got too expensive, using a dummy with clothes on to do the same. Got pretty expensive for awhile.

Yoshi, these are some of the drills I learned in two of my three schools. I will say that at age 50, after all these years, the other essential elements are twofold: make sure a legit ranked Ying jow or eagle instructor/master guides you on this training, and stock up on plenty of dit da jow! If you are in California, between Pat B., Ken Edwards, Delroy Miller (if you can learn his great scissor take downs from Ying Jow, and his other Ying Jow take down techniques, great back in the day!) and of course Benson Lee, one of our two seniors currently in Glendale (and learn his body connectivity to his claws!).

I hope all of this helps, but like I said, please do all of this under one of the above if you are in California as otherwise you will bring harm to yourself! Happy New Year to everyone!

[Yoshiyahu]

hEY nINE BIRD...Yahuwah Barak Atah nine bird. Toda for the blessing. Todah Rabah. My yom has been tob thus far.I am rejoiced with your energy...very knowledgeable...


Yoshi, Sholom alecheim, baruch atah adonay! I will write an answer to types of training the hands from both my Ying Jow master and my Wudan Nine bird master (one of the birds is Shaolin eagle claw, a little different than Ying jow) tomorrow when I am back in the saddle on my own computer. Good Yom Tov, Happy Hannukah!

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post...what were some of methods you hate to mention when you said "but loathe to mention them since they can be harmful without supervision/instruction of Sifu or someone like Joel, Cecil, Benson, Gi, Mark, etc. "

I love your post...some of your drills like Raking or scraping tree bark off a tree is something my Sifu instructed. Also the Jars we have to hold...I actually got some pastic two litter bottles filled with water right now at the house...i need to get some new bricks...we use bricks grip them with the finger tips and rotate our arms from our center to either side of us...like going in and out...also finger push ups. Finger strikes on striking bag...with sand,iron shots or beans. Also bucket filled with rice,sand,or steel shots you stab with your hand and grip the steel shots and squeeze an then release. Also we use wrist rollers with a weight...an we also do some other things too...

Its very interesting...some of the methods you told me I do not do but i am aware of them...I dont do them because my Sifu didn't tell me i had to...i don't think its apart of curriculm either way...But I asked about eagle claw because i have been noticing aspects of eagle claw with in the wing chun system...thats why i asked!

oh dit da jow...got some at home...lol...my Sihing has a nice jar of Dit Da Jow he made...excellent recipe. We also had to do horse stance or mabu too. I hated those days...but great for the chi...



To answer Yoshi's inquiry on the claw training, I will answer it in two parts, one part Ying Jow and one part Shaolin eagle, under two of my three masters:

In Ying Jow:

1) We used the 5 finger pull in device, with rings at the end, metal springs at both ends, and use to pull in until we almost made a fist, 100-200 times each hand, several sets.
2) One hundred reps each hand of circle claw, hanging claw, and yin/yang claw, with the yin/yang claw usually done with a Ying Jow front kick in a certain turn and grasp drill. This technique is my brother's Joel Rodriguez favorite kick, and one he is known for, along with his Ying Jow sweeps.
3) Take plastic or glass water bottles of different weight, fill them with water, sand, buckshot, etc, and grasp the tops with your five fingers and hold the bottles in increasing times, then move in stance with the arms extended either out or forward.
4) Using the wooden dummy, grasp and pull the arms many times while turning the waist or sinking the root.
5) Perform the "Ten Punches," various sequence of stances with certain claws and punches.
6) Different drills where one would have a partner, and with stance movements do different claws to the arms of your partner, and then alternate with the partner doing the same.
7) Two person sets.
8) Joel and I use to get objects, either soft or hard, step off certain distances, and then throw the object where the other person had to catch it quickly out of the air with the Ying jow claws. Got pretty good after getting hit in the face or chest several times....LOL!
9) Sitting in mabu for up to 15-30 minutes with arms extended out, hands with fingers extended, while Sifu or seniors came by and checked to ensure sending chi through finger tips for straight hand strikes as well as claws. Good for splashing hands techniques, our senior Cecil Jordan to this day extraordinary with this!!

These were some of the drills we did to toughen our claw and locking capabilities. There are others, but loathe to mention them since they can be harmful without supervision/instruction of Sifu or someone like Joel, Cecil, Benson, Gi, Mark, etc.

In Wudan Shaolin Nine Bird, Shaolin Eagle:

1) In Shaolin eagle, the hand training is usually with the index finger, middle finger, and thumb or "Southern," along with the typical Ying Jow for the actual pull in or locking, while the other is used for striking.
2) Stripping tree bark with bare fingers, usually oak or other tough bark trees.
3) Pulling grass or mud while closing the fingers digging down up to 2-3 feet with both hands, alternatively.
4) Sitting in mabu horse stance with a partner, grasping each other's claw fingers, then pulling each other, maintaining the horse stance, and resisting allowing the fingers to be pried open.
5) Striking different surfaces with the three fingers, then pulling in tree branches with the locking claw. Also, using the yin/yang claw and fa jing, breaking branches in half with the upward and downward pressure of the hand movements.
6) Having progressively heavier bean bags with buckshot thrown at full speed at you and grasping them from the air.
7) Fingertip push-ups progressively from five fingers down to two fingers, while either supporting yourself or with weight on your back until you could support body weight of your partner. Pray your partner weighed 150 pounds like you did....LOL!!! No such luck!!!!
8) Ripping shirts, gis, etc. off partners, or when that got too expensive, using a dummy with clothes on to do the same. Got pretty expensive for awhile.

Yoshi, these are some of the drills I learned in two of my three schools. I will say that at age 50, after all these years, the other essential elements are twofold: make sure a legit ranked Ying jow or eagle instructor/master guides you on this training, and stock up on plenty of dit da jow! If you are in California, between Pat B., Ken Edwards, Delroy Miller (if you can learn his great scissor take downs from Ying Jow, and his other Ying Jow take down techniques, great back in the day!) and of course Benson Lee, one of our two seniors currently in Glendale (and learn his body connectivity to his claws!).

I hope all of this helps, but like I said, please do all of this under one of the above if you are in California as otherwise you will bring harm to yourself! Happy New Year to everyone!

[ngokfei]

There are many ways to train the Claw but only a few to train its usage.

Grandmaster Shum had us focus on specific gung exercises but emphasizes live action with partners.

If you've got time to do it all then great but if you don't then focus on partner drills.

Mike: a slight correction: Pat is Benson's student not Sifu's.

[Victor Smith]

Hi Ninebird,

I talked to Ernest recently and realize he's been having a difficult time. I hope it passes soon and he's back to his old self.

We all age and must deal with those ramifications, and find a way to fit as much of our training in as possible.

Thanks for the notes.

[Ninebird8]

Ngok Fei thank you for the correction! Victor, I understand about Ernie....sometimes I have to do special qi gong exercises to help with my Chron's when it acts up, since it adversely affects the joints like any other inflammation disease. That is when I am glad my tai chi kicks in, LOL! Jeff Bolt once said to us once you pass 50, teach kung fu, practice tai chi....LOL!!

[Ninebird8]

This past weekend we celebrated the 35th anniversary of teaching and the 74th birthday of one of my three masters, and the kindest soul who can kill you I have ever known, my second father Shum Leung in LA. Many of us flew into LA and I stayed with my wife and my training brother Joel Rodriguez, as we toasted our Sifu, demonstrated for him and his wife, told him how much we loved him, and ensured later he and Simo went to SF for vacation with plenty of money in their pocket! Since this is an eagle claw thread, I thought it appropriate to speak for all of his masters, instructors, students, grand students, and great grand students, when I say Sifu we love you, we thank you, and the gifts you have bestowed upon us outweigh anything we could every repay you. Thank you Sifu Shum (Sigung an Si Tai gung depending upon your generation) for all you have done for us over the last 35 years! It was a great time had by all and the smile on your face said it all. To all, honor your teachers while they are still alive and can appreciate and receive it! Let them know it was worth their sacrifice and pain to teach all of us! With honor, love, and respect Sifu!!