True masters Don't worry about rank?

[Sin]

Back in the old times there wasn't a belt ranking system only system you had to go on was who could beat who kind of deal....No the inventor of TKD never had a Black belt...they gave him one after he died.........Is Belt color a American thing or is it a Traditional deal?

Your thoughts?

[mj_lover]

i believe the colored belts came about for competition reasons, to help estimate ability levels. If i remeber corectly, Dr. Kano developed the color system for judo in the late 1800's, early 1900's

[Marginal]

Back in the old times there wasn't a belt ranking system only system you had to go on was who could beat who kind of deal....No the inventor of TKD never had a Black belt...they gave him one after he died.........Is Belt color a American thing or is it a Traditional deal?

Your thoughts?
Uh, the founder of TKD did earn a BB.

[RRouuselot]

Back in the old times there wasn't a belt ranking system only system you had to go on was who could beat who kind of deal....No the inventor of TKD never had a Black belt...they gave him one after he died.........Is Belt color a American thing or is it a Traditional deal?

Your thoughts?
You have obviously researched and thought about this in great detail before posting it.

Belt ranks were developed by Mr. Kano as was stated. I have read (not sure how true it is) that this was influenced by an old Samurai rule that dictating on certain level Samurai could wear certain color clothing. The color of ones clothes dictated their rank. This helped when meeting people that you didn’t know to determine who should show more respect to whom.

As for Karate, this system was adopted by Funakoshi’s group that had close contact with Mr. Kano’s….in fact some students of Kano joined Funakoshi’s training.
The founder of TKD Mr. Choi (?) studied Shotokan (which is where TKD came from) in Japan and yes he did “earn” his belt. If I am not mistaken he didn’t call it TKD until he got back on Korean soil.

[Miles]

...I have read (not sure how true it is) that this was influenced by an old Samurai rule that dictating on certain level Samurai could wear certain color clothing. The color of ones clothes dictated their rank. This helped when meeting people that you didn’t know to determine who should show more respect to whom. I have never heard of this, but it would not surprise me. I learned that it is still very important, at least in Korean society, to have business cards ready when meeting folks on the street. This way the "social standing" could be established.


As for Karate, this system was adopted by Funakoshi’s group that had close contact with Mr. Kano’s….in fact some students of Kano joined Funakoshi’s training.
I read somewhere that Funakoshi would always bow when traveling past the Kodokan.


The founder of TKD Mr. Choi (?) studied Shotokan (which is where TKD came from) in Japan and yes he did “earn” his belt. If I am not mistaken he didn’t call it TKD until he got back on Korean soil.
Gen. Choi coined the term and yes, he is alleged to have studied Shotokan. The founder of the Chung Do Kwan (1944), GM LEE, Won Kuk, studied Shotokan with Funakoshi's son. The founder of the Song Moo Kwan, GM RO, Byung Jick also studied Shotokan while in Japan and taught briefly at the Chung Do Kwan. GM LEE, Won Kuk called his art "Tang Soo Do". The term Taekwondo was not accepted by all the Kwans until the early 1960s.

Back to the issue of rank-true masters are not concerned as rank will take care of itself, one way or another. Never saw anyone in Korea wearing stripes on their belts. RRouselot can comment on what he sees in Japan (I am assuming but I don't know that his experience is similar) Rank stripes-that is a Western practice.

Miles

[RRouuselot]

RRouselot can comment on what he sees in Japan (I am assuming but I don't know that his experience is similar) Rank stripes-that is a Western practice.

Miles

Actually Mas Oyama had "rank stripes" and so did many other Japanese karateka.
In Okinawa it is not too popular but you see it from time to time.

[Aegis]

Belt ranks were developed by Mr. Kano as was stated. I have read (not sure how true it is) that this was influenced by an old Samurai rule that dictating on certain level Samurai could wear certain color clothing. The color of ones clothes dictated their rank. This helped when meeting people that you didn’t know to determine who should show more respect to whom.

I was under the impression that after the initial distinction between black and white, the colours were inspired by the Japanese swimming team and adapted to the new Judo ranking system. I can't say I've ever heard that the colour idea was taken from samurai times, though there may be a nugget of truth in there I suppose...

[Colin_Linz]

We just use white for gokyu and yonkyu, brown for sankyu nikyu and ikkyu, and black. We have no stripes, but the chest badge colour changes from green for kyu kenshi, black for shodan and nidan, and red for sandan and above. There are also some other ones that are used to designate organisational positions like branch master. I don’t really know why we do it this way.

[Miles]

Actually Mas Oyama had "rank stripes" and so did many other Japanese karateka.
In Okinawa it is not too popular but you see it from time to time.
Thank you, had forgotten about Mas Oyama's belt.

I have seen stripes on belts worn by Okinawan karateka (am specifically thinking of Shoshin Nagamine) but was informed that they stand for level of instructor? Can you confirm/deny this?

Miles

[daddyslittle1]

.

[RRouuselot]

I have seen stripes on belts worn by Okinawan karateka (am specifically thinking of Shoshin Nagamine) but was informed that they stand for level of instructor? Can you confirm/deny this?

Miles
I heard the same thing. I am not sure if it is true or not. I don't think it stands for dan ranks like other schools.

[Sam]

*wonders what happens to daddy'slittle1's post*

I don't know much about this but, typical of me, I'm gonna put my two cents in anyway. I think I read somewhere that the idea was taken from the swimming teams who used colors to denote different ranks.

I don't know if it is an 'american' thing but I do know that far too many people place too much emphesis on your rank - ie, you have a disagreement about something and the other party dismisses your concerns because they outrank you - like if you rank below them you cannot be right. (I will never understand that).

If you mean by the title of the thread that they don't worry about their own rank, I'd agree with that statement. But I'd be willing to bet they sometimes worry about the lack of progress some students show.

[Chronuss]

I had never known about the swim team helping to bring forth the idea of colored rank, that's nifty food for thought. some denomination of rank came from simply wearing the same sash over, and over, and over, and over again. when you first went to study, the cloth was white and new, and simply assisted in keeping pants secure around the waist. from simply wear and tear, the cloth would become dirty from training and stained from wearer's blood and sweat, and eventually would become black and worn.

[RRouuselot]

I had never known about the swim team helping to bring forth the idea of colored rank, that's nifty food for thought. some denomination of rank came from simply wearing the same sash over, and over, and over, and over again. when you first went to study, the cloth was white and new, and simply assisted in keeping pants secure around the waist. from simply wear and tear, the cloth would become dirty from training and stained from wearer's blood and sweat, and eventually would become black and worn.
That is one of the "old wives tales" of the martial arts and has no factual basis regarding the induction of the colored belts system.

[Sam]

the swim thing or the white belt gets so dirty its black thing?

some martial arts think you wash the knowlege out if you wash your belt or gi - I could see that being true... *goes to look it up...*

[Knifehand]

the swim thing or the white belt gets so dirty its black thing?

some martial arts think you wash the knowlege out if you wash your belt or gi - I could see that being true... *goes to look it up...*
From www.mastercollins.com (http://www.mastercollins.com) (Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan)

TANG SOO DO

THE COLORS OF THE BELTS

WhiteSymbol of purity, novice hidden potential and represents the student as a seed freshly planted in the ground. It represents winter.Yellow/OrangeIs the initial growth of the seed. It represents winter/spring.GreenAre the colors of life and vigor. It is symbolic of the plant and represents the level of rapid development of a student. It represents spring.RedIs the color of energy and vitality. It represents the flowering of a strong plant. It represents a students improvement, active participation and advancement. It represents summer.Midnight BlueMidnight blue symbolizes infinity and perfection. It is this quest for perfection that epitomizes Tang Soo Do. A practitioner of Tang Soo Do must never be satisfied or complacent. Rather, he/she must continually strive to be better. Tang Soo Do "black belts" are represented by Midnight Blue. The color black symbolizes the mastering of everything in that the color cannot be changed by adding any other color. With Blue, it is possible to continue adding more and more color to blue, rendering it darker and darker thereby implying that we must not become stagnate in our physical, mental and spiritual ability. Also, that no matter what stage of life we are experiencing, there is always room for growth; which is contrary to the symbolic statement made by the color black that one cannot be changed (i.e. that a student could reach their full growth and potential).

[Sin]

You have obviously researched and thought about this in great detail before posting it.
::sarcasum noted::


Anyways..i've I only know what have beent old.....

Didn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.

[loki09789]

::sarcasum noted::


Anyways..i've I only know what have beent old.....

Didn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.

Possibly, but that may also be more MA folklore and myth as well. A parable to emphasize that the belt should be symbolic of your journey if you are going to wear it at all.

Rank, as a training tool, is only effective as a way to organize curriculum so that people know who knows how much and what they are prepared to learn or how intensely someone should feed them in sparring or give and take drills.

As a social pecking order tool, ego boost, self importance machine it will always fail in time because it distracts from the training.

There are those who carry the term GrandMaster or the equivalent and care more about protecting that title than earning it everyday they teach, train and learn.

[ppko]

::sarcasum noted::


Anyways..i've I only know what have beent old.....

Didn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.I had heard that as well ( long time ago) but I don't put much faith in it. While it could be true it doesn't seem to be true

[Knifehand]

isn't enough to realized that the belts signify progress? if you want to believe they mean on thing.... then thats what you believe. The meanings of the colors differ from one style to another...

[ppko]

isn't enough to realized that the belts signify progress? if you want to believe they mean on thing.... then thats what you believe. The meanings of the colors differ from one style to another...It is not the color of the belt you wear but the practitioner wearing the belt.
A belt is only good to hold your pants up with.
I don't know who originally said these sayings but I thought that it would be good to write these in now.

[RRouuselot]

Ranks mean you have been exposed to the level of knowledge associated with the rank. Doesn't always mean you are as good as everyone else that has that rank.

[ppko]

very true

[Chronuss]

As a social pecking order tool, ego boost, self importance machine it will always fail in time because it distracts from the training.
amen to that.

[Knifehand]

you would rather have a system where you are all grouped together, disregarding both ability and knowledge? If you all think it is such a negative, then why even wear the belt.

Pride for accomplishments is not a weakness or negative. I'm proud to have earned my orange belt. Its not an excuse to stop training. Infact, it makes me want to learn more.

Loki, you couldn't be farther from the truth. The only distaction is the emphesis put on attaining that belt. people who get distracted by a piece of long cloth have no idea what it means to wear it.

Belts are a signature of Hard work, effort, discipline, and dedication. The color of the belt is just each step of that journey toward perfection, which we will never reach, but its a good goal to have.

[RRouuselot]

you would rather have a system where you are all grouped together, disregarding both ability and knowledge? If you all think it is such a negative, then why even wear the belt.
The belt helps to keep the jacket from flopping open.....
In my teacher's association we all wear the same color belt from 10th kyu to 10th dan.......it's white

[Fbettincourt]

I thought Mr. Oyata had a gold belt. I do not remember seeing him on video wearing a white belt.

FB

[RRouuselot]

I thought Mr. Oyata had a gold belt. I do not remember seeing him on video wearing a white belt.

FB
guess you should look again then


http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com/Images/Taika1.jpg

[Tgace]

Loki, you couldn't be farther from the truth. The only distaction is the emphesis put on attaining that belt. people who get distracted by a piece of long cloth have no idea what it means to wear it.
I dont think you understood what he said...he said that once a belt becomes a political/social symbol it becomes a distraction....I cant argue with that.

[terryl965]

Well here goes another 2 cent job. The belt means absolutely nothing, it is used to measures one progress in a system. It cannot make you a fighter and sure cannot help you if your in a stituation( I know your training helps you not the belt except you use it while you fight). What a belt means to me anyway is I have learned enough of a system to become knowledgeable to teach said system and I'm suppose to be able to defend myself in some stituation. It does not make me SUPERMAN or SPIDERMAN like so many people think.
Just a mans view.

[RRouuselot]

I dont think you understood what he said...he said that once a belt becomes a political/social symbol it becomes a distraction....I cant argue with that.

Some things in martial arts parallel religions in many ways as far as rank and structure.

[RRouuselot]

Well here goes another 2 cent job. The belt means absolutely nothing, it is used to measures one progress in a system.
1) It cannot make you a fighter and sure cannot help you if your in a stituation( I know your training helps you not the belt except you use it while you fight).
2) What a belt means to me anyway is I have learned enough of a system to become knowledgeable to teach said system and I'm suppose to be able to defend myself in some stituation.
3) It does not make me SUPERMAN or SPIDERMAN like so many people think.
Just a mans view. 1) Agreed
2) Again I agree
3) Maybe someone should put a Superman patch on their belt ;)
Actually fon't even get me started on patches plastered all over Dogi.... :rolleyes:

[Matt Stone]

[QUOTE=SinDidn't at one time you wore your White belt forever and when it turned black thats when you became a BLACK BELT.[/QUOTE]

Because, of course, a society that is obsessed with cleanliness would certainly wear a soiled, smelly, disgusting rag over and over again until it literally turns black with filth...

Yeah, that'd happen.

[BlackCatBonz]

gee......in old uechi ryu photos the guys are wearing little more than a loincloth......who needs a belt?

[RRouuselot]

gee......in old uechi ryu photos the guys are wearing little more than a loincloth......who needs a belt?
The first time I met my teacher in the dojo he was wearing a T-shirt, shorts and sandals. He then "schooled" me on what Okinawan karate is. I swear I can still taste that floor!!

[Knifehand]

I dont think you understood what he said...he said that once a belt becomes a political/social symbol it becomes a distraction....I cant argue with that.
A distraction for who?

Take being a Cho Dan for instance. i am afraid of cho dans (kinda, but not really). They are badass people. They have a lot of abilities and they are further along in the program than I am. (short and sweet). People have a stigma about Black belts, Some think they are muscle bound meatheads... others think they are violent people... but thats not right either... most black belts are reserved about their abilities, responsible people. the long and the short - the distraction lies in Other people. My belt is not for anyone else but me.

when i get my orange belt in a few weeks, i will smile. This belt is something i've achieved. I know now I have an opportunity to learn more, grow more. Its a distraction for others...Since when i care what others think about my training or what they think I know?

[Tgace]

Ill say it this way then "when a belt becomes a political/social symbol FOR THE WEARER, it becomes a distraction."

What we are saying is that belts can be a problem when the person holding the rank expects social/political deference due the rank. Its not what about others think of your rank.....

[Fbettincourt]

Mr. Rousselot,

I did think again and found this link.

http://www.ryushu.com/mehim_gal.html



peace!

FB

[RRouuselot]

Kind of reaching for stuff aren't ya.....I mean that photo has to be from the 1980's. He hasn’t worn that belt in over 20 years…..and as I recall he never wore it that much to begin with.


I have noticed one thing about you bettincourt.

Since you have joined this forum you have all but 5 of your posts have been on forums I have posted on. In fact your first 8 posts were directed at me and not really on the subject of the thread.

This tends to lead me to believe your are nothing more than a “troll”. Granted you are what is known as a “deceptive troll” (one that can snipe and harass within the Forum Guidelines) but a troll you are none the less and one that is trying to pick issue with me or anything I post.

[Fbettincourt]

Mr. Rousselot,

I believe that we were both playing nice on this thread. You posted something about Mr. Oyata wearing a white belt. I said that I thought he wore a gold belt, and provided the picture to prove it. Your post had some nasty undertones along with a picture.

You do not know me, nor I you. I only post on topics that interest me. I have not "targeted" you, but rather have asked why, repeatedly, that you have to be condescending in most of your posts. I just feel that you can get your point across without being rude. Honesty is one thing and rudeness is another. You, Mr. Rousselot, are just plain rude.

and yes...Peace!

FB

[RRouuselot]

Mr. Rousselot,

I believe that we were both playing nice on this thread. You posted something about Mr. Oyata wearing a white belt. I said that I thought he wore a gold belt, and provided the picture to prove it. Your post had some nasty undertones along with a picture.

You do not know me, nor I you. I only post on topics that interest me. I have not "targeted" you, but rather have asked why, repeatedly, that you have to be condescending in most of your posts. I just feel that you can get your point across without being rude. Honesty is one thing and rudeness is another. You, Mr. Rousselot, are just plain rude.

and yes...Peace!

FB
Oh yeah I guess you don’t have any sort of agenda…… no it’s just by chance that 90% of your posts are directed towards me or pick issue with something I said…..no you didn’t target me…no absolutely no agenda….:rolleyes:



Mr. Oyata used to wear a black belt at one time as well…..so what’s your point other than being an troll.



So what if you think my posts are rude …who the hell are you to play “internet cop”???

Are you a “Mod” now??? Last I checked you weren’t.

If you don’t like what I post or how I post don’t read it.

[Fbettincourt]

Mr. Rousselot,

Though you repeatedly try to get under my skin, you will not. I obviously have gotten under yours. Not by design or agenda. Just by pointing out that you are indeed someone who has many personal issues that need to be worked out. I truly hope you find some kind of peace. Life is too short. I have said that before, but I guess you have skipped over that part.

Peace!

FB

[RRouuselot]

Mr. Rousselot,

I truly hope you find some kind of peace. Life is too short. I have said that before, but I guess you have skipped over that part.

Peace!

FB
“peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace”



You are about as annoying as one of those harekrishinas at the airport….and sound just as about as sincere.

[Fbettincourt]

When you offer someone an insult and they do not take it, to whom then does the insult belong?


Peace!

FB

[RRouuselot]

Congrats “Lord Krishna” fbettincourt



Since you rarely if ever post on the topic of a thread and don't contribute anything of worth you have earned a spot on my “ignore list”.
I will take some good advicehttp://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/schild30.gif .......meanging you.


Bye....http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/wavey.gif

[Fbettincourt]

A deep bow Sir Grousselot.

Peace!

FB

[KenpoTess]

Mod Note

A General Warning to all concerned.

Please refrain from personal attacks. Use the Ignore Feature, that is what it is for.

Repeated misuse of the Report Bad Posts will not be tolerated. If you don't 'like' someone, then Simply don't reply to them.

~Tess
-MT S. Mod

[JAMJTX]

The idea of Kyu/Dan ranking was introduced to the Japanese Martial Arts by Jigaro Kano, the founder of Judo. He used white belt for kyu and black for dan.
These ranks are used in other areas outside of martial arts. You will find artists and musicians that hold ranks and titles that I am sure most would think were found only in martial arts.
Kano modeled the ranking system after that used in the game of GO. If you look at the game, you see white and black pieces.

I don't know where the notion of some kind of swimming connection came from.
I have heard that Kano used black belts because the swimmers wore black ribbons. But I was never told that by a Japanese and the only Japanese I ever met who new something about both never heard of any such connection or swimmers wearing black ribbons.

The old story about white belts getting old and changing colors is a nice story, but it's just that.

The different colors for different kyu grades came, I believe, from the europeans as competition started to become bigger business.

With the size of some classes, it is hard for a teacher to keep close track of everyone's progress. So actually, the color belts is a good idea for in the class. Any instructor can walk into class, look around at the belts and have an idea of what level everyone is at.

I recall a story of an Aikido teacher who applied for a position of chief instructor at a school. The board of directors called him in to teach a class in order to observe him. When he got there he looked around and saw all the students were wearing hakama. He assumed they were all atleast Shodan, since in most schools wearing the hakama starts at Shodan. He called this student to be uke for the first technique. As uke was thrown he began to scream in fear and probably pain. He could not take the breakfall.
When uke got up, this teacher was surprised that he was not too well trained. It turns out it was a class of white belts.

Having some kind of standardization in the use of belt colors is useful. But it is more for the teachers than the students.

To be useful outside of the class, the colors would need to be standardized based on kyu grade. Some schools use different colors for different grades. 5th kyu is green in some places and purple in others. At a tournament or clinic, the belt color is meaningless in letting the judges or instructor know what level you are at.

I believe General Choi, the father of Tae Kwon Do held a black belt ranking in Shotokan, the style that TKD was based on.

[Gray Phoenix]

True Masters dont care about rank, and neither does any good student. There are too many McDojos in existance for the color of the cotton to mean anything. I've actually seen people go to the local MA store and buy a black belt just to say they have one. My own professor found out someone had forged a blackbelt certificate with his name on it.

So in short: Cotton color dictates what detergent to use in the wash.

Only knowledge matters.:asian:

[Ka'alako]

True Masters dont care about rank, and neither does any good student. There are too many McDojos in existance for the color of the cotton to mean anything. I've actually seen people go to the local MA store and buy a black belt just to say they have one. My own professor found out someone had forged a blackbelt certificate with his name on it.

So in short: Cotton color dictates what detergent to use in the wash.

Only knowledge matters.:asian:
Good point. We shouldn't care or worry about rank... HOWEVER, there is a certain amount of responsibility that comes with rank. I could wear a white belt around my waist and avoid all conflict with those that wear colored or black belts. That is wrong, in my humble opinion. As for me, I choose to get in the ring or on the mat with other black belts; I share with and teach the lower ranked.

An interesting tidbit regarding washing: Sumo players generally do not wash their loincloth/belt.

[DuneViking]

Some great posts on this subject. Personally, I find worrying about attaining rank as a goal in itself is not appealing to me. I do believe in being aware of rank and respecting those who have attained it -balanced by how they display it. As for myself, starting back in the mid 70's and studying on and off, I have more "time" in than required for my ranks and oft passed on testing to improve my skills to a level I was happy with for the rank involved. Having attained a rank, I strive to be responsible and humble in exercising the privilges thereof. I do not think a "true master" nor a "true practioner" worries about rank to the exclusion of the learning.

[MichiganTKD]

I agree-true Masters are not obsessed with rank. However, rank as manifested by belt color serves several purposes.

1. It provides psychological motivation for most students to keep training. Color belts are a Western invention, because most students would not accept training for several months or years while remaining white belts. It might work in Japan or Korea. It wouldn't work here.

2. Rank provides a tangible way for students and the public to understand the level of an Instructor. Many people don't understand or can't relate to the intangibles of higher rank (manners, etiquette, credibility etc.), but even non-students understand 1st, 2nd, 6th, 8th Dan. They may not know precisely what those ranks entail, but they relate on a certain level to them.

There is a difference between possessing rank, and wearing your rank on your sleeve (or belt). True Masters may have a certain rank, but their actions speak far more about their rank and level than any belt. They have no need for ostentatious belt stripes, "Grandmaster" belts or uniforms, or promoting themselves at every opportunity. I think many people are confusing having rank with loudly promoting it at every opportunity.

And being a true Master or Grandmaster means a lot more than just being willing to step onto the mat. A junior Dan can do that. A true master is a living embodiment of everything a human being can be-good job, educated, good family, excellent credibility in his community and in the world. He may teach, he may not. But he always works to promote a positive image of his art to the world.

[Sin]

I began this thread as a note to any and all martial Artists to always be true to themselves and be humble...

Just because you have a Black belt dosn't mean you better than anyone, it only means you have a resonably high experince level and a higher Ciriculum, but this dosn't mean your necessarly "Better" than anyone. Granted you deserve respect for all those years of training. What I want you all upper belt ranking Martial Artists to rememmber is that you where a white belt at one point too. And everyone has the same potential and that potential is Infinate.

[RRouuselot]

I began this thread as a note to any and all martial Artists to always be true to themselves and be humble...

Just because you have a Black belt dosn't mean you better than anyone, it only means you have a resonably high experince level and a higher Ciriculum, but this dosn't mean your necessarly "Better" than anyone. Granted you deserve respect for all those years of training. What I want you all upper belt ranking Martial Artists to rememmber is that you where a white belt at one point too. And everyone has the same potential and that potential is Infinate. Not to be insulting or rude but I find it odd that you of all people would lecture someone on “morality” and “proper conduct” since you were knowingly using a licensed Trademark without permission and only stopped using it after considerable amount of pressure. I don’t disagree with what you said in your post but find it ironic coming from you.

Maybe you have learned your lesson....

[Sin]

1) stay on topic

2) We are in the process of getting 100% permission

Our mistake dosn't have anything to do with this thread

[RRouuselot]

1) stay on topic

2) We are in the process of getting 100% permission

Our mistake dosn't have anything to do with this thread 1)You were the one that brought the "proper conduct and attitude” thing up.

2) Don’t expect anything over night. It may take several years for you to get it.....and I hardly doubt it was a "mistake" since you were informed of the error on more than a few occasions and even copped an attitude with me and failed to correct it until pressured to. Which is why I found your post on morality and ethics amusing.

[Knifehand]

Childish bickering....

[RRouuselot]

Childish bickering....
I see by your constructive non-inflammatory comment you were just trying to be helpful.

[Knifehand]

I see by your constructive non-inflammatory comment you were just trying to be helpful.There was nothing constructive or non-inflammatory in my statement... it was a straight cheap shot at the both of you for your silly resentful arguement. I just went through one of those and I am tired of seeing it happen on this board. If you two want to be opinionated and bicker... thats what PMs are for.

To the Victor goes the spoils. To your corners and let the rest of us talk, for once.

[RRouuselot]

There was nothing constructive or non-inflammatory in my statement... it was a straight cheap shot at the both of you for your silly resentful arguement. I just went through one of those and I am tired of seeing it happen on this board. If you two want to be opinionated and bicker... thats what PMs are for.

To the Victor goes the spoils. To your corners and let the rest of us talk, for once. If you don't like reading something then don't...... You see your “snipe” about “childish bickering” was just as off topic as what you were whining about....so you that makes you a hypocrite

[Knifehand]

If you don't like reading something then don't...... You see your “snipe” about “childish bickering” was just as off topic as what you were whining about....so you that makes you a hypocrite
Yeah...So? It doesn't make my point any less valid.

[Knifehand]

Well Rob...What i was saying, is that if you two want to argue...Get an Instant messenger and go fist to cuff there. This was a good thread, until people got opinionated. so why don't we get back on topic? Shall we?

[RRouuselot]

Yeah...So? It doesn't make my point any less valid.
:rofl:

[Knifehand]

...:whip:

[RRouuselot]

...:whip:
A true "no touch KO" in action
:fart:

[Knifehand]

:rofl:
There is a difference between credibility and validity. You can't trust a hypocrite do what they say they are going to do, but they have opinions just like you do, Rob. ::shakes head:: :bird:

[RRouuselot]

I guess your emotions have clouded your mind since I purposely just got you to do what you were berating someone else for doing……and that is argue on this thread.

Maybe you should take your own advice an use the PM function.

[Knifehand]

I guess your emotions have clouded your mind since I just got you to do what you were berating someone else for doing.I'm not arguing with you...I was just keeping up foreign relations... you know... the finger..:bird: :2xbird:

I glad you get some sort of pleasure out this. My emotions (cuz your an expert on my emotions, really :bs1: are fine... i'm just tired... its early here...

[Knifehand]

Maybe you should take your own advice an use the PM function.
ok... you are going to wish you didn't say that one.... LOL

[RRouuselot]

Ya….well anyway… :rolleyes: back to the topic at hand.



After reading most of the replies on this thread I think most people agree that a belt doesn’t make you a “master”. It represents what you may have been exposed to and what you should know.

[Fbettincourt]

...and you would think that there would have been some kind of character built over time.

FB

[MJS]

Gentlemen....This topic is getting off track! Before it gets shut down, please stay on the topic at hand.

Mike

[terryl965]

Back to the topic, If a person is truely not concern about Rank then they would never be called Master or Grand Master. At my school no ones calls me Master they call me subnanum which means instructor or Sir for respect purpose only. I do not care if anyone calls me Master for my Master is GOD and only GOD. Now at tournaments and seminars I will give people the respect they need or feels they need but for me, I do not need that titleI just need there respect for my training.

[still learning]

Hello, Most of us like to have the use of color of belts to show the sign of progress we have earn. . For those who mention the colors should be use for measurement of progress? , this is a good idea. Most students like this method of measurement. Easier for other instructors who come in to help teach also.

As for true Masters? Most of them, don''t think the color/belts is important. Your reputation,respectability will come as you progress in life. This is earn.
A good book to read is "Musushi" about a true master. .....Aloha

[tshadowchaser]

Much of what we call oursleves or what we want to be called is dictated by what is happening around us. If a person of high rank is called by his/her first name in class he/she may be called Master by those same students at formal gatherings.
Now if you meet someone and ask ther name and they tell you " you may call me MASTER such and such" then I think that person is on a ego trip.
As for what rank they are again it may depend upon ego and how important a peron wants to be or feel they are . This can be with in an organisation or to other martial arts people.
I know a few people who go around with a BIG name tage that says "GRANDMASTER' on the front of their uniform. However the people I have met over the years that where truly the head of their organisations and true Grandmasters NEVER would have done such a thing. Hell have of them only introduced themsleves by their first name to most folks. When you observed these individuals and how their students addressed them and how others addressed them and interacted with them there was no doubt who had rank and who deserved it.

[MJS]

IMO, we should be more concerned with the knowledge that we have rather than the rank around ones waist. Granted, things are much different from the past, so today people want or use that rank as a status. In a class setting, where you have various ranks, its used to distinguish beginners thru advanced.

However, just because someone is wearing a BB with 8 stripes on it, it does not make that person a Superman. I would rather have 2 stripes and know my material, know that I can make it work, etc. than have those 8 stripes, and be very poor with the material.

Mike

[Sin]

I only did what i was told to do regaurding the ryute in our school's tittle...so I left it in. When you started gripeing i told my sensei of this and he said he would speak to Oyata (the first time) the second time I asked him..'Did you talk to Oyata about ryute being in our tittle?" He told me he hadn't yet....so I urged him to call. So he did the next day and spoke with him about getting the rights to use it. Robert, you do not have any power over me, and I personally do not like you..but that doesn't mean that we insult and slander one another on a public board...It seems like every thread you on it gets shut down...because of you being a bully....

This thread is only a note to all Practitioners to not worry about your belt color, when you know what you need to know you will progress...your belt will change on its own if you just devote yourself to the arts

[RRouuselot]

1) I only did what i was told to do regaurding the ryute in our school's tittle...so I left it in. When you started gripeing i told my sensei of this and he said he would speak to Oyata (the first time) the second time I asked him..'Did you talk to Oyata about ryute being in our tittle?" He told me he hadn't yet....so I urged him to call. So he did the next day and spoke with him about getting the rights to use it. 2

2) Robert, you do not have any power over me, and I personally do not like you..but that doesn't mean that we insult and slander one another on a public board...It seems like every thread you on it gets shut down...because of you being a bully....

This thread is only a note to all Practitioners to not worry about your belt color, when you know what you need to know you will progress...your belt will change on its own if you just devote yourself to the arts

1) I see you still haven’t figured out how to use the PM function. If you want to discuss this with me send my an email or PM.

2) http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[Knifehand]

I only did what i was told to do regaurding the ryute in our school's tittle...so I left it in. When you started gripeing i told my sensei of this and he said he would speak to Oyata (the first time) the second time I asked him..'Did you talk to Oyata about ryute being in our tittle?" He told me he hadn't yet....so I urged him to call. So he did the next day and spoke with him about getting the rights to use it. Robert, you do not have any power over me, and I personally do not like you..but that doesn't mean that we insult and slander one another on a public board...It seems like every thread you on it gets shut down...because of you being a bully....

This thread is only a note to all Practitioners to not worry about your belt color, when you know what you need to know you will progress...your belt will change on its own if you just devote yourself to the artshttp://graphics.gaiaonline.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_ninja.gif

[Knifehand]

1)I see you still haven’t figured out how to use the PM function. If you want to discuss this with me send my an email or PM.

2) http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

http://graphics.gaiaonline.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif http://graphics.gaiaonline.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif http://graphics.gaiaonline.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_domokun.gif http://graphics.gaiaonline.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_scream.gif http://graphics.gaiaonline.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_stressed.gif

Thats what i have to say to that!

[Sam]

:lurk:

this is interesting... I just hope you guys don't get the thread locked

[DuneViking]

I see by your constructive non-inflammatory comment you were just trying to be helpful.ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! Kudos R !:viking3:

[Sin]

what I don't get is that when new students comet o MA for the first time they're ashamed of being a white belt, and are afraid they are going to be picked on by higher ranking students, now at my school if I see that i will nip that one in the bud right then and there, because it does nothing but give MAists a bad rep. Although no matter where you go there will always be a hazing, but its when practitioners put the new comer down, makes me sick.

does anyone else had this kind of problem before? And how did you handle it?

[RRouuselot]

what I don't get is that when new students comet o MA for the first time they're ashamed of being a white belt, and are afraid they are going to be picked on by higher ranking students, now at my school if I see that i will nip that one in the bud right then and there, because it does nothing but give MAists a bad rep. 1) Although no matter where you go there will always be a hazing, but its when practitioners put the new comer down, makes me sick.

2) does anyone else had this kind of problem before? And how did you handle it?
1) Really?

2) No

[Colin_Linz]

what I don't get is that when new students comet o MA for the first time they're ashamed of being a white belt, and are afraid they are going to be picked on by higher ranking students, now at my school if I see that i will nip that one in the bud right then and there, because it does nothing but give MAists a bad rep. Although no matter where you go there will always be a hazing, but its when practitioners put the new comer down, makes me sick.

does anyone else had this kind of problem before? And how did you handle it?
I have never seen this. I can see how it may occur in some art though.

[tshadowchaser]

THREAD CLOSED

there had been some good ideas and talk but all that has gone away so this thread is closed for now