Xtreme Martial Arts

[Knifehand]

http://media.dsc.discovery.com/convergence/xma/video/video.html (http://media.dsc.discovery.com/convergence/xma/video/video.html)

Check this out... if you can find it on the Discovery Channel... watch it...the whole special is awesome.... espcially if you are a beginner...

[terryl965]

yea avery well put together doc. I have it recorded my son watches it every chance he gets.

[Tidy_Sammy]

Watching the clips on the site, thanks for the headsup.

[Autocrat]

I've watched several of those things.... big show about the other Month in England on tele about it..... wasn't overly impressed.... they concentrated more on the showmanship and performance side of martial arts...... those graphite bo's are great, and you can get amazing speeds up and flick them high! - You try hitting someting with one! As for the main guy....Mathew?.... I study martial arts... I do karate.... I'm good.... I don't like being hit... I loose it when I get hit.... WTF! Thats not martial arts.... thats Xtreme Moron Arts. How you can claim to study, practice, train or learn martial arts and not do contact? Whats with all tha padding etc ? Don't they have enough control to pull a strike... to make light contact whilst moving at high speed? Well trained my left foot.... their basics tended to be sloppy, yet they excelled... ieven appeared miraculous wit hthe higher end flash stuff that seldomly works in Combat!

PS.... No offence intended to any practioners of such performance arts.... I just view it that if I started going to gymnastic and majorette competitions and performed my karate, they would feel just how I do! Sorry if I offend, it's merely my opinion, and only worth what you give it... if you dislike what I've said, please ignore!

[Adept]

Whenever you get into the martial arts, you should be clear about your goals. You might want to get fit, to master a specific single art for the sake of it, learn how to defend yourself, or learn it to better do your job (LEO, etc). If you want to learn flashy, cool looking moves, the XMA is the way to go, no doubt about it.

But you should be clear in your understanding that it is in no way a RBSD geared 'art'. It is just flashy moves for their own sake. Which is no bad thing.

[Simon Curran]

I've watched several of those things.... big show about the other Month in England on tele about it..... wasn't overly impressed.... they concentrated more on the showmanship and performance side of martial arts...... those graphite bo's are great, and you can get amazing speeds up and flick them high! - You try hitting someting with one! As for the main guy....Mathew?.... I study martial arts... I do karate.... I'm good.... I don't like being hit... I loose it when I get hit.... WTF! Thats not martial arts.... thats Xtreme Moron Arts. How you can claim to study, practice, train or learn martial arts and not do contact? Whats with all tha padding etc ? Don't they have enough control to pull a strike... to make light contact whilst moving at high speed? Well trained my left foot.... their basics tended to be sloppy, yet they excelled... ieven appeared miraculous wit hthe higher end flash stuff that seldomly works in Combat!

PS.... No offence intended to any practioners of such performance arts.... I just view it that if I started going to gymnastic and majorette competitions and performed my karate, they would feel just how I do! Sorry if I offend, it's merely my opinion, and only worth what you give it... if you dislike what I've said, please ignore!
I am in total agreement with you, I saw the Discovery channel thing again a few weeks ago, and to be frank it p***es me off.
It just serves to further propogate the public disbelief in martial arts, I think even my grandma would be able to look at that and see none of it is even remotely usefull.
As Adept said, people begin training in martial arts for their own reasons, and if your reason is to be the next Van-Damme then that is fine by me, but don't go showing the world that is the kind of thing all martial arts are made of.

[The Kai]

XMA is basically floor gymnastics, in fact in tthe newest Century Catalog there is a XMA device called the devil sticks, don't let the name fool you-it is the balancimng sticks the chinese girls gymnastics team is so good at.

As far as the special goes watch when Mr. figure skater works with Fumio Demura-if you can't see/sense the difference XMA might be right for you
Todd

[Simon Curran]

XMA is basically floor gymnastics, in fact in tthe newest Century Catalog there is a XMA device called the devil sticks, don't let the name fool you-it is the balancimng sticks the chinese girls gymnastics team is so good at.

As far as the special goes watch when Mr. figure skater works with Fumio Demura-if you can't see/sense the difference XMA might be right for you
Todd
Mr figure skater...:rofl:

[AnimEdge]

that toyota comertal got old fast
that and would have been kooler if they didnt make it go all glowly CG

[AnimEdge]

Then i watched the rest of it, uh to flashy for me, reminded me more like dancing

[MichiganTKD]

Extreme Martial Arts: great for the 0.0001% of the population capable of doing it. Otherwise, not much use. Can't see anyone doing it later in life. Pretty uniforms and weapons though. I like the way everyone is focused on creating their own forms. A 25 year old guy who understands enough about martial arts to create his own form and make it more than just superficial gymnastics. Riiiggghhhttt!

Want to see the reaction someone gets when they watch this video, go to a real martial arts school, and say "I want to learn this!"

[Miles]

I saw this when it originally aired on TV. It was entertaining...that's what it is-strictly for entertainment. I have a great deal of respect for the amount of training these folks undergo to be able to perform what they are doing. But, it does remind me of a movie....Gymkata.

Miles

[The Kai]

Yea It reminded me of another movie

"Dumb and Dumber"

Exterme gymastics what will they think up next

[bignick]

On a slightly positive note, my judo instructor's sensei said something once about wishing he could get normal people to train their forms like that. The people that do this work really frickin hard to be able to accomplish it and spend hours every day practicing...though I'm not a big fan of the XMA movement, I'll give credit where credit is due and they do work hard.

[Eldritch Knight]

This whole thing seemed to me like a big joke. The Discovery Channel obviouly aired it as an educational show teaching people about martial arts, but in my opinion, failed miserably. I can just see hundreds of non-MAers sitting in front of their TVs and laughing their pants off at stuff "that would never work". The Discovery Channel took something fierce and beautiful and reduced it to wire-frame skeletons, coconut breaking, and flashy martial gymnastics.

As a kendoka, I was utterly shocked and appalled at the guy who was supposed to be the "katana master". He had this little speech on how much he respected the sword and tried to show that respect in his forms, and then proceeded to totally contradict himself in his actions. He did this showy routine with flips, twirls and throws; at one point he even threw his sword in the air, landed in a split, and caught it behind his back. That's not respect: that's a total misrepresentation of a proud tradition..

[rmcrobertson]

I agree.

But despite the fact that I despise this stuff as the perfect example of the commercialization of something wonderful, as well as the promotion of narcissism in the arts, I actually am all in favor of "Xtreme Martial Arts."

I figure, the more crappy martial "artists," that there are out there, the safer I am when I'm stupid enough to get into a fight.

Certainly, I don't want to have to take on anybody COMPETENT...give me a badly-trained, arrogant fool every time.

[Chronuss]

I figure, the more crappy martial "artists," that there are out there, the safer I am when I'm stupid enough to get into a fight.
I second that.

the only thing I remotely enjoyed in that show when it originally aired was the female with the rope dart demonstrating the form and when what's-his-face got his rib broken...but if somebody had been impaled, it definately would have been a better show. on another note, I just love it when people kiai and sound like their constipated.

[bignick]

I just love it when people kiai and sound like their constipated.
:mrtoilet:

[47MartialMan]

Extremely out there with extremities for me.

[Dronak]

But, it does remind me of a movie....Gymkata.

Gymkata was rather cheesy, but I actually loved it. :) Probably because it was the only movie I knew of at the time that focused on gymnastics and I was doing gymnastics back in high school at the time I saw it. I think my parents still have it recorded from TV on some VHS tape.

Well, the shows are on right now and I'm watching them. There was a link in the entertainment forum that pointed over here, so I thought I'd read it during commercials and add some comments. It seems like they do have a fair amount of flashy and showy moves in some of what they were doing. But I also saw at least some things in there that looked familiar from my training and/or seeing what my classmates have done. And one of the main guys apparently focuses on traditional forms which don't have that same flash as other forms. So I guess it depends on what you look at.

I like the weapon highlights they've been doing. It's kind of neat to see some specific info about them and demonstrations of their use. Some of it I've heard before, like about the spear that they just did, but it's still interesting.

Edit: They just commented that that Matt would need more flash in his weapons routines if was going to compete with the best. So you all do have a point about that.

[MichiganTKD]

I suppose if you look at it as pure entertainment it's okay. It's when you "pretty" things up, add gymnastics, fancy uniforms, and cool weapons, but still want to be called a serious martial artist that I have a problem. These guys have about as much to do with actual martial arts as WWE has to do with actual wrestling.

[rmcrobertson]

This is about commodifying the martial arts--about turning everything into something sellable and marketing it. The question is, will it leave anything intact in "real," arts?

It's been going on for quite a while, of course, back into pre-modern China; as you can see in lots of Jackie Chan films, there were lots of wu shu demos done in marketplaces to make a few bucks so people could eat.

It's inherent, too, in contemporary tournaments, which have their full share and a few scoops more of fake ki-ais, taps-that-score in point sparring, screeching parents, sloppy judges, more-or-less famous people awarded trophies for lousy forms and crappy self-defense routines because they're--well, mildly-famous, and kata rewritten to, "improve," their showmanship.

It's capitalism, Jake. What do you expect?

[arnisador]

Heh, I remember liking Gymkata at the time.

Well, as long as TV entertainment is crap, it might as well be crap about the martial arts, I say.

[Drifter]

The Xtreme Martial Arts show was on again last night. Did anyone else catch the show about martial arts before that?

I couldn't help but shake my head in disgust at the "Combat Ki" school, or seminar, or whatever. I didn't see them have one technique that had someone DEFENDING against getting hit, but rather they were standing there, getting ready, then hissing like a moron while getting hit in the throat. The saddest part was how many people were there.

The section on Ninjutsu (I'm pretty sure I spelled this wrong, sorry to any Ninjutsu practicioners) was better, and interesting from a historical perspective. Overall the teacher demonstrated much more skill.

The final section on Aikido was good from a perspective of looking at the ART. But the instructor was an @$$hole! I would NEVER go to a school that resembled that teaching method. The way he treated his students by making them kneel so much and so often was obviously a superiority thing. Then not letting them stretch in the middle of class (Why are you stretching? I didn't say back stretch? Why are you stretching???)... That just didn't make any sense at all. The thing that really topped it all off was that he built the whole dojo per 16th century Samurai HOUSE standards, and then was making his students clean all of it, the kitchen and all. The funny part is that this neurotic, controlling teacher was termed a 'Zen master' at the beginning of the segment. I was unimpressed.

[artist89]

Sorry if I accidnetly psoted twice with nothing on it, I pressed enter to many times but anyway the Xtreme MA is on today on Discovery Channel from 4-5(centeral I believe) so figure out which part of the U.S. you are in and go from there. But anyway I thought I would let the Martial arts community know.

[artist89]

I apologzie it is on at 3:00 centeral, once again I'm sorry about that.

[masherdong]

Those are cool clips! Thanks for the link!

[achilles]

I think we all learned a lot of important lessons from Xtreme Martial Artshttp://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif. At the end, the guy they were following basically gave up and decided that at his ripe old age (twenty something?) it was time to pass on the torch (i.e. vicariously live through his student). I think that is a terribly example for adult martial artists, perhaps even worse than the narcisim and ridiculously unrealisitic notions of fighting because at least the latter keep people active and involved in a meaningful way.

[sasquatchnaruto]

i really dont like them, ever since I read the article in Black Belt Magazine about them talking about how its a great system, theyre just a bunch of gymnasts that occasionally kick

[47MartialMan]

The show is geared to people whom do not know any better.

[arnisador]

The show is geared to people whom do not know any better. That's TV for you!

[47MartialMan]

Yeah, the entertainment industry has to "sell" something.

[TallAdam85]

MY 2 CENTS I liked it alot I am into sport karate I can't do the flips and stuff I more into the sparing but the xma was very good maybe over played but good. they give u a taste of everything in it some said it is cool if your just starting out yes and it is cool cause we have martial arts on tv how often do we have that normaly just the US OPEN on espn 2 on friday nights at midnight lol
any ways it was good but i am not going to buy any of the xma stuff or try it lol cause if I spar some one at the dojo who try to do like gymnastic moves to me I will hit him harder cause u try and do a flip kick to some in a bar fight and miss would just plain out be funny and dume but don't froget the video shows SPORT MARTIAL ARTS Sport being the key word

just my 2 cents so :mp5:

[achilles]

I think it was actually a disservice to the martial arts community. There was already a goofy image of martial arts from the Karate kid and aerobic kickboxing. The more martial artists are shown divorced from reality, albeit sometimes accurately, the less we will be taken seriously and the more credibility we lose. Even if you look past the acrobatics, the fighting format is not representative of anything approaching self defense or real combat. The weapons routines had more to do with twirling than anything actually having to do with fighting. Furthermore, even his appeal to traditional martial arts with self defense applications from his form lacked generalizabililty (your opponents would have to be positioned in a very specific formation for the technique to work) and lacked tactical consideration (all the horse stances left his groin wide open). Nothing about that program had anything to do with real fighting, yet viewers were led to believe that they were the super human authorities on self defense and martial arts.

[TallAdam85]

:ultracool There was already a goofy image of martial arts yes there is ! But this I feel was more made to get people to watch and want to maybe even join martial arts. What you want them to show people in metation and in slow katas sure there great if you train but people who know nothing thinking your hitting the air they don't find out what the moves are till later , I feel it was more for people in the 10-17 to join martial arts but once they go to a dojo by them they will see all the sides of karate not just the flash\


just my 2 cents

[The Kai]

Why do people think the gymnastics has such appeal to the teenagers?
, would'nt the averager teen whom is being picked on want to learn anything beyond figure skating poses?

[rmcrobertson]

Commercialism and pushy parents who see dollar signs.

Unfortunately, too, we live in a culture that glorifies violence, the flashier the better.

[ginshun]

If it was supposed to be an overview of real martial arts in general, then it did a pretty poor job.

From what I have seen and heard though, people who are martial artists hate it, and people who are not love it.

Take it for what it is worth I guess. I don't think that the program ever really claimed to be showcasing real world self-defence techiniques.

And personally, I thought the Wu Shu weapons forms or whatever they were were pretty damn cool. Obviously they were not anything like a real world fight, but they were still pretty cool.


The program overall is pretty much what I expected it to be. It is a TV show after all. You are not going to get people to watch if you show an nothing but a couple hours of kata and a self-defence class.

[Andrew Green]

Takes some really high level athletic abilities, is great for fitness, there are some really dedicated preformers. What is the problem?

That they used the sacred words "Martial Arts"?

So What?

Performance, Meditation, Fighting, Fitness, Self-confidence, etc.

Many reasons to train, many different approaches that match them.

Everyone that I have met that did that sort of stuff knew and claimed that this is not for fighting or self-defence, it is for fun and for show. There is no deception at all in what they do, they are perfectly honest about it.

Isn't this sort of like if Tour de France guys started complaining how BMXing is not biking, has no real value and is all for show cause they can't really race comparred to racers, and showing it on tv hurts the image of "real" bikers?

[ginshun]

Takes some really high level athletic abilities, is great for fitness, there are some really dedicated preformers. What is the problem?

That they used the sacred words "Martial Arts"?

So What?

Performance, Meditation, Fighting, Fitness, Self-confidence, etc.

Many reasons to train, many different approaches that match them.

Everyone that I have met that did that sort of stuff knew and claimed that this is not for fighting or self-defence, it is for fun and for show. There is no deception at all in what they do, they are perfectly honest about it.

Isn't this sort of like if Tour de France guys started complaining how BMXing is not biking, has no real value and is all for show cause they can't really race comparred to racers, and showing it on tv hurts the image of "real" bikers?
Well said, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on it too.

[achilles]

I am not an advocate of kata nor do I believe that the program should have shown people meditating. I think that if they are going to showcase martial arts in a TV program, they should present something that actually looks like fighting rather than batton twirling or interpretive dance. The point fighting was better than nothing, but I found several things about it disturbing. For one, it was referred to as kickboxing. Kickboxing is closer to a reaction against the point fighting movement. Furthermore, people involved in kickboxing generally aren't afraid of getting hit in the face. I also think that the producers tried to present point fighting as real fighting sighting how dangerous it is. I think that is a gross misrepresentation. No sportive event is a completely accurate representation of real fighting, but point karate seems to be one of the furthest from the mark in my oppinion to to the rules and what I call martial fetishism. The programs broad claims are a disservice to other martial arts who do not necessarily place all their emphasis on flash and stage presence.

[rmcrobertson]

Of course, when you BMX you are still on a bicycle, and you actually ride it. That would be the difference; the similarity would be that far from "fun," this is all about selling something.

[Andrew Green]

XMA is still about throwing punches and kicks, but with a focus on tricks rather then function.

BMX is still about riding a bike, but with a focus on tricks rather then function.

Everything is about selling something. If they put a traditional Master on there to talk about the values of traditional and how things have gone to hell lately it would be about selling something, just a different something.

[rmcrobertson]

The martial arts did not appear in societies where everything was about selling something. Furthermore, what "extreme," arts sell is the opposite of self-defense, even as they feed off the idea of self-defense.

Most of the problems that everybody cites in contemporary arts--arrogance and ego, advantage-taking teachers, the invention of more and more worthless new, "styles," petty squabbling and infantile rivalries, lousy and politicized judging at tournaments, the laziness and greed of students, and all the rest, trace back exactly to the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

I see no hope at all of stopping this nonsense--but I don't have to like it, and it IS nonsense.

[Andrew Green]

What does XMA have to do with Self-defence?

I've not heard any of its practitioners claim it was at all for self-defence.

And haven't Traditional styles benefited from XMA? How many people started traditional styles because of hollywood showmanship? Ninja Turtles anyone?

[rmcrobertson]

I didn't.

And--as I mentioned--it's a real question as to whether all the selling has really made anything better. Which martial arts do they do in the Olympics--sport TKD, isn't it? don't show the judo, do they...not profitable enough, is the explanation.

But as for the so-called extreme martial arts--they're on a pay channel, right? and they have sponsors and ads, right? and the people who do this stuff--you figure they have a lot of time for the real thing, and for their schoolwork?

[47MartialMan]

This is where I have to ask;

Can it still be called "Xtreme"?

I have a problem with wording that has an over-emphasis on a subject in the manner to "sell" or exploit the subject.

The same goes for UFC, Shaolin Temple (this or that), Cardio Kickboxing, etc.

[achilles]

If the xma people didn't overtly say self defense, wouldn't it be implied in the martial art part? I think competition is great, but I find martial art with no practical self defense or combative value absurd. The difference between real martial arts and xma is not analogous to the difference between using a bike for traveling and bmx tricks. Their is a clear difference in purpose between the two. BMX is clearly different than transportation in the public eye, but the public is easily deceived into thinking that xma is real martial art. And I do think that deceived is the right word, because I doubt that the xma crowd would ever go out of their way to explain that what they do is for performance purposes rather than self defense.

Do I think there is anything that can be done about it? No. People have taught all manner of junk as martial arts for centuries, and who is to say that what xma does is any worse than what some traditionalists do. Some traditional martial arts are just as disconnected from reality, so who's to say what is good martial art and what is trash? Are kata really any different from cardio kickboxing apart from the spandex and music? Who's to say, but as a previous post said: I don't have to like it.

[47MartialMan]

So I guess the thing to do is educate people of the differences?