How to handle the aggressive new guy?

[blackandblue]

Last week a new guy came into our jiujitsu studio (I heard him saying he trained at another school) and I got the opportunity to grapple with him. He fought wild. When trying to pass the guard, he landed a knee on my head. And when I had him in the guard, he put his elbow on my neck so hard it could have been a strike. Anyway, I got pretty upset and decided to take it to his level, giving him my own elbow on the neck when an opportunity presented and also a knuckle drive into the lower throat when he tried to get a cross-lapel choke. I'm not proud of this. I totally lost my cool. But this guy was a freak and later in the evening he cranked a foot look on somebody after the person tapped. But what is the protocol? How do you tell him to chill out while not coming across as a loser? Has anyone else experienced this and what happened?

[Shodan]

Yeah- this is a hard issue to deal with. There used to be a guy in our class that would take things just a little further once you tapped out- twisting your arm just a bit more, etc. Or if you were sparring and got a strike in on him, his whole goal the rest of the night was to get you back......and often twice (or more) hard than you'd gotten him....he became a head hunter!! I have this guy on video kicking me in the head AFTER I had bowed out to fix the velcro on my sparring boot. I was leaning over fixing it and he comes in and kicks me right in the head!!

Sometimes people from other studios are used to going harder/softer than the new studio they go to or join. Maybe this would be best handled by talking to your instructor. I'm sure you are not the only one feeling he is a bit out of control and what if he really hurts someone?

We took the issue to our instructor who handled it nicely. Sometimes it doesn't go so well though and these folks will continue to just do what they do.......that's when maybe keeping them paired with someone more advanced or someone who likes the same sort of play may be the best idea.

Good luck with this.

:asian: :karate:

[bignick]

If you ask them to change their ways and they can't seem to adapt maybe it's time for them to move on...

[BlackCatBonz]

tell him not to mistake an act of kindness for weakness......anyone can play dirty pool.

[Feisty Mouse]

I might remind him - or have the instructor remind him, before the next class - that he gets to train with someone else provided that he respects them and their physical safety. Training with others is an issue of trust - "loaning" your body to someone for their training, so they "loan" theirs to you for your training.

I would make it quite clear that if his juvenile tactics don't stop, you will opt not to work with him - or the instructor should make it clear he will be asked to leave, if he can not train safely.

Sounds like a liability waiting to happen.

[Tidy_Sammy]

Tell him how you feel or mention it to your instructor, he maybe just needs tamed down a little.

[MJS]

Last week a new guy came into our jiujitsu studio (I heard him saying he trained at another school) and I got the opportunity to grapple with him. He fought wild. When trying to pass the guard, he landed a knee on my head. And when I had him in the guard, he put his elbow on my neck so hard it could have been a strike. Anyway, I got pretty upset and decided to take it to his level, giving him my own elbow on the neck when an opportunity presented and also a knuckle drive into the lower throat when he tried to get a cross-lapel choke. I'm not proud of this. I totally lost my cool. But this guy was a freak and later in the evening he cranked a foot look on somebody after the person tapped. But what is the protocol? How do you tell him to chill out while not coming across as a loser? Has anyone else experienced this and what happened?

This problem needs to be addressed ASAP!!!! It appears that this guy is not interested in learning anything, but instead to see how many people he can hurt with his "tough guy" mentality!

I have encountered a person like this at a grappling class that I was assisting my inst. with at a local university. Unfortunately 2 things happened that night. One, he cranked my left leg back very quick and hard, which resulted in me coming very close to tearing my ACL. The second, was that after that happened, I, like you, retaliated with an armlock and choke. I then proceeded to lecture him in front of the entire class about the need for control. Due to his carelessness, I was unable to do much of anything for a few months while the injury was healing.

Now, was this proper for me to do? Giving him the lecture yes, but should I have cranked him twice?? Probably not, but until the last few seconds of the match, things were going well, so I really had no indication of what was to come. In your situation, things got off to a wild start from the get go, so the match should have been stopped right away and the problem addressed.

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for picking up the pace a little. Provides for a little mutual challenge, but notice the key word here... mutual Before the pace is picked up, it needs to be agreed upon by both people participating.

Mike

[WilliamJ]

In general my approach is to tap guys who are being over aggressive and tap them often and painfully. But if they start injuring people they have to go. And what was a newbie doing working leg locks anyways? That's a major no, no at the gym where I train. Leg locks are for for students who have shown they have control, generally blue belts and above.

[Lisa]

IMHO, All new people I have seen to grappling tend to be overly aggressive usually for one of two reasons.

Firstly, because they feel they have something to prove at the new school and want to show off their "skill". Depending on the atmosphere of the school and the tolerance of your teacher, they usually settle down or disappear quickly.

Secondly, they use strength as opposed to skill because they haven't learned any skill yet so they try to compensate. They don't want to be "embarassed" and tapped out all the time. If this guy "fought wild", my guess is that he has little or no technique and his claim to training elsewhere could raise an eyebrow, but not knowing for sure... I digress.

In my school, the instructor is the one who works with the new guy first. I hear a lot of "relax" come from my instructor to the new guys. Most calm down after a while and once the basics are down, usually turn out to be good training partners.

I am really sorry to hear that this guy seems to be a bit of an... well you know. Talk with your instructor. Truly it is his responsibility to ensure the safety of his students. A good instructor realises we all have to leave the mat and go to work the next day. A good businesman knows that if one wild dog takes out his students, he won't be a businessman for long.

:asian:

[MJS]

And what was a newbie doing working leg locks anyways? That's a major no, no at the gym where I train. Leg locks are for for students who have shown they have control, generally blue belts and above.

I agree! Just for clarification, leg locks were not the focus of the class that night. The main portion of the class was covering the basic positions. As I was attempting a mount during the free rolling session, he somehow caught my leg and pulled back. Now, where he picked that up from I don't know, but I do not believe that it was at my instructors class.

Mike

[loki09789]

Last week a new guy came into our jiujitsu studio (I heard him saying he trained at another school) and I got the opportunity to grapple with him. He fought wild. When trying to pass the guard, he landed a knee on my head. And when I had him in the guard, he put his elbow on my neck so hard it could have been a strike. Anyway, I got pretty upset and decided to take it to his level, giving him my own elbow on the neck when an opportunity presented and also a knuckle drive into the lower throat when he tried to get a cross-lapel choke. I'm not proud of this. I totally lost my cool. But this guy was a freak and later in the evening he cranked a foot look on somebody after the person tapped. But what is the protocol? How do you tell him to chill out while not coming across as a loser? Has anyone else experienced this and what happened?
Bring it to the head instructor's attention. Hopefully there was some kind of code of conduct orientation about courtesies and such already. Either way, you are totally within your rights to refuse to train with someone that you see as unsafe. Don't do it. Period. If you think that you can do it, and it will be recieved properly, try talking to him directly about levels of intensity and safety/trust. He may be trying to impress the established 'crew' and isn't just training.

Personal level, you are in charge of who you work with first and foremost.
Class level, instructors are in charge of maintaining a productive and safe training floor. If your instructor is blowing it off, he may see the light when people refuse to work with this guy. If the instructor isn't on your side....you might have exposed two people to get away from.

[theletch1]

Everyone elses suggestion that you should approach the head instructor is right on the money. I also have to agree with Nalias' points on this. If the guy just tried out another school for a freebie then he has no experience to speak of and may have the idea that grappling is only what he's been able to pick up watching the UFC or something. Maybe just a gentle reminder to "take it easy, we're here to learn not kill each other" would be all that it takes to wake him up a little.

[Whitebelt]

I got an aggressive new kid in me tkd class too.We where cricle sparring, he kicked me, i blocked it but stumbled out the circle (ur ment 2 stop) , he jumped out and it me another 10 times! In the next round i stood on his foot and returned the favour.It seems to have worked.

[MA-Caver]

While it's been ages since I've been in any formalized school environment. IMO guys like these either need to be put in thier place by the (senior) instructor...verbally and privately. Jr. Instructors need to keep an eye on these guys to make sure they're not reverting back if they've accepted the Sr's word to Knock it off! It's their school and thus their rules and codes of conduct.
If the guy persists then a Jr. or Sr. instructor should "playfully" put them in their place. Hopefully the guy will understand and straighten up.
Humiliation isn't a great thing. Intimidation is just as bad. Both, IMO, don't have any place in a MA school.
I concur that the staff of any school reserves the right to dismiss and refuse a student from further training if they're not willing to take it seriously and are just throwing their weight around.
It's these guys that give (any) MA a bad name.

respectfully
~R~

[Feisty Mouse]

I completely agree that you should have an instructor talk to this guy.

In addition, I think knowledgeable students should be able to - politely - stick up for themselves. I've been in several training situations where I waited for the instructor to notice something, or talk to him later, and in the meantime, I was injured. I'm not such a fan of that anymore.

[MA-Caver]

I completely agree that you should have an instructor talk to this guy.

In addition, I think knowledgeable students should be able to - politely - stick up for themselves. I've been in several training situations where I waited for the instructor to notice something, or talk to him later, and in the meantime, I was injured. I'm not such a fan of that anymore.
Yes, you're right. Part of MA I believe is the ability to find a way OUT of a "fight". Using the mind to think and to reason. To talk the aggressor down (if possible). A class-room setting is ideal for this.
If the guy however; puts off this "aww, s'matter? tooo rough for ya? " attitude, then I'd walk away from them (after bowing) and find the instructor and get their attention (without interuppting of course) and let them know.
A good instructor will take care of it asap.
A guy with that kind of piss-poor attitude of "awww, tooo rough for ya?" will usually be unreasonable ("aww c'mon get tough!") or patronizing (":rolleyes: ohh, alllright I won't hurt you anymore... geez") which is detrimental to any training. I'd avoid training with this guy until he's gone or adjusts the attitude.

[hardheadjarhead]

Use your words.

Beginners are often scared. They're scared they'll get hurt or they're scared they won't measure up to the instructor's (or your) expectations. Talk to him, tell him to chill out and relax, ask him to slow down.

Taking it to his level leads to injury and can get the class instructor angry, if not sued. If the guy is still going berserk, the instructor ought to sit him down on the sidelines and read him the riot act...or give him the boot. If handled properly, the guy can grow from it.

The old rule "If a nail sticks out, hammer it down," doesn't find much application in our culture.

Regards,


Steve

[Tgace]

Had a guy In my class who was like that, it was all about his "not loosing" than it was about learning anything or allowing anybody else to learn...he was given the boot.

[still learning]

Hello, Yes! Most of the post agree on "You should let your instructor know" others may get injury or hurt. When the grappling becomes too real "the strikes?hitting very hard? Is not necessary for training.

Years ago when training in Tan Soo Doo we had a black belt (military guy) who came from Korea, looking for a school to train in. White belt at the time and he would hit everyone in class very hard. By the time it got to the upper ranks to spar with each other , a real fight got started because the other black-belt would hit him back hard too. That was the first and last time we ever saw him. Do we need to "hit" that hard to learn? ........Aloha

[MA-Caver]

Hello, Yes! Most of the post agree on "You should let your instructor know" others may get injury or hurt. When the grappling becomes too real "the strikes?hitting very hard? Is not necessary for training.

Years ago when training in Tan Soo Doo we had a black belt (military guy) who came from Korea, looking for a school to train in. White belt at the time and he would hit everyone in class very hard. By the time it got to the upper ranks to spar with each other , a real fight got started because the other black-belt would hit him back hard too. That was the first and last time we ever saw him. Do we need to "hit" that hard to learn? ........Aloha
Should hit hard enough to let the other person know they've been hit. But not to the point where it will cause pain. People do have different tolerances for pain of course and those sparring/training together should start out lightly (not baby taps) and then work up to where the other person will say "okay that's tolerable," and then condition/discipline themselves to constantly strike at that level consistently.
When I helped Ceicei practice for her green and brown belts she hit me anywhere from light to medium strikes (that what it felt to me). With her medium strikes I felt them but wasn't hurt or even thinking twice about them. Wasn't even sore (except for that ONE btg she gave me that time :rolleyes: ) afterwards. But then again, I've been told I've a high tolerance to pain anyway. :idunno: But that's just me.
We learn MA not only to defend but to discipline ourselves mentally + physically and the two working in tandem guided by our emotional content. We know who it is we are faced with and thus should be aware enough to know how hard to strike. Trying to "one up" someone who happens to hit harder makes for a serious fight somewhere down the road. It doesn't take much.
So the watch word is train hard but be careful! :D

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Raise the expectation to a game that is smooth, technical, and glides from move to move...with the understanding that the highest level of skill is not dramatic or effortful.

If that doesn't work, put him to sleep everytime he starts getting aggressive. Simple conditioning. If he survives the experience, he will modify his behavior. In old karate days, we would bang up the guy pretty good for bringing that energy to the mat. Now, with liability and legal issues at the forefront, you can't really take it to that level with karate. But with grappling, getting put to sleep or jacked really hard in a hold is part of the training. This makes it easy to regulate the cocky young ones by sending them away sore and sleepy.

Good Luck,

Dave

[Bod]

I would make it immediately clear that as soon as you tap the pressure is released. It's that simple. Tell him you won't roll with him unless he abides by that one very simple rule of safe practice.

I would be tempted to back mount a guy like that and tie up his arms so he can't tap, then put him to sleep. It won't hurt him. But this is not leading by example.

In my club it was everybodys' job to explain the rules to the new guys. Release the pressure when you tap. Full stop.

[Hollywood1340]

Make him Uke.

[loki09789]

Make him Uke.
I've tried that at different times myself. It depends on the guy/girl. If it is an ego thing, they suck because they won't simulate or work with the person. They will cause problems because they will constantly either do or say thing that 'prove' that "that sheet won't work on me...." instead of trying to help the other person learn.

[Storm911]

Where I study BJJ at, I was told on the first night about letting go when someone taps. I was told that "you get what you give". I knew that what he meant was, if you get too rough with someone, someone will get just as rough with you. The other students were cool, but I knew they were more than able to enforce it. So we have never have any problems. Where I study TKD at, some times people get a little too rough, and if they don't respond to the warning from the other person , everyone else usually turns it up a notch with that person. This almost always stops the problem if they are new, when at the end of the night, someone ( another student ) pulls that person to the side and tells him what the deal is. We rarely have problems , being that my school is kind of like a small family. If he is a new guy, give him a little bit of leeway at first, unless he thinks he is a bad--s and enjoys hurting people..... Then its open season on him... -J Lesko

[JDenz]

Some of it has to do with the other people that he trained with. I go pretty hard whne I roll I can take it easy though. I mean I am training to fight and alot of other people don't train like that. I think you have to learn to roll to the level of the people that you are rolling with. When I am in a class I always try and roll with the guys that do compatitions rather then the guys that are just there to learn so I can roll hard. There is never any excuss to not let go when someone taps though that is just ignorant. Ego at the door.

[MJS]

I've seen some schools, where it seems as if the people are there to just see how tough they are, rather than trying to actually learn anything. As I said before, I certainly have no problem with taking it to the next level, but it has to be agreed upon by both people involved.

IMO, I think that its very important to get the positions down first before worrying about the actual techniques: Locks, chokes, etc. If you don't have the positions, all the techs. in the world are not going to help you.

Just my .02!

Mike

[rutherford]

There is never any excuss to not let go when someone taps though that is just ignorant. Ego at the door.

Hell, I'm slightly worried that I'll be in a self defense situation, the person will tap, and I'll let go!

There's some great advice in this thread.

However, I want to reiterate that it's not always the new guy's fault. He could be nervous, he could be used to different a training intensity, etc. Hell, just last Tuesday I came at Uke way too fast. The instructor had just pointed out to me on something I knew was wrong, but couldn't get to work right. He was still watching, and in an attempt to just force the technique I used way too much speed and power.

I immediately said, "I'm sorry, Dan. I came at you way too fast there." And as we repeated through the next couple iterations, I talked with him about my problem. Taking my mind off the technique, it came out perfectly for me.

The important thing is to talk it out. If you say, "Hey, that was a good knee to my head, but lets take the intensity down a little and work on skill." I'll bet you get a good response.

If not, toss the guy. He'd be happier training somewhere else anyways.

[SammyB57]

You need to explain to him COMPETITION is where you try to kill people. Training is just working on techniques to get better. Some people just don't get it. So tap them out and slam them on their head.... or just don't roll with them. Bring it up to your instructor, he is there for your safety. I see you are a white belt.... ask one of the brown's or blacks to give him a lesson in humility.

[SammyB57]

Hell, I'm slightly worried that I'll be in a self defense situation, the person will tap, and I'll let go!

There's some great advice in this thread.

However, I want to reiterate that it's not always the new guy's fault. He could be nervous, he could be used to different a training intensity, etc. Hell, just last Tuesday I came at Uke way too fast. The instructor had just pointed out to me on something I knew was wrong, but couldn't get to work right. He was still watching, and in an attempt to just force the technique I used way too much speed and power.

I immediately said, "I'm sorry, Dan. I came at you way too fast there." And as we repeated through the next couple iterations, I talked with him about my problem. Taking my mind off the technique, it came out perfectly for me.

The important thing is to talk it out. If you say, "Hey, that was a good knee to my head, but lets take the intensity down a little and work on skill." I'll bet you get a good response.

If not, toss the guy. He'd be happier training somewhere else anyways.
Grappling free sparring is a little different. You aren't trying to knee to the head. There is no uke and tori. And in self-defense.... you won't let go. I go easy in training all the time, but in competition I hang on to submissions for dear life. The mindset in class and in an actual contest (be it street or sport) are totally different.

[Bod]

You don't have to let go immediately if you are worried about getting into bad habits for the street, just ease up a little on the choke or lock and count to three before letting go.

There is a world of difference between letting up while keeping control and cranking it on a little more. Everyone in grappling for more than a few weeks knows that getting a lock or choke on is the difficult part, keeping it once you are at the pain point is easy.

[rutherford]

You don't have to let go immediately if you are worried about getting into bad habits for the street, just ease up a little on the choke or lock and count to three before letting go.



Well, I was making a joke.

When I grapple, I always let up immediately. I think this is definitely the safest course.

But then, I also - usually - strike in our grappling sparring. So, while I wouldn't drive my knee into somebody's head if it was resting on the ground, I would definitely toss one in if the oppertunity was there. I say "usually" because I always talk to sparring partners before any play. With folks I know well, it's usually very short and just to confirm expectations. Sometimes, somebody really wants to work on a particular thing. It's all good.

[sgtmac_46]

I usually just play as rough as they want.

[JKogas]

If people are going to be rolling / sparring, adequate suipervision "should" eliminate most of this behavior. Often this supervision isn't in place as it should be though. I've been to schools where it often wasn't.

Naturally, some ground rules need to be in place as well with the consequences for breaking them clearly established. This isn't often the case either. It all comes down to the instructor/coach.

-John

[kingkong89]

i have exsperienced this a few times. when this happens you tell him/her to be nice and take it easy. if they don't listen ry once more then go to their level.

[BJJMichigan]

I happened to notice that this thread got "bumped up" so I thought I would put in my "two cents" on the issue of dealing with Newbies. I am of the mindset that all of us were "new" to our martial art of choice and in BJJ its very easy to get "caught up in the speed of the sparring". I know that when I started as a white belt I unfornately tried to compensate my lack of technique with strength which I think is common for most newbies as that is pretty much all they have going for them to combat technique in the early stages of there training.

My current approach to the noobs is to try and be proactive with the newbie and try to find out what they're wanting to work on and will go from there. Most of the time the "newbies" are honest in there intent to learn, occassionaly you will get the A-hole who just wants to test himself on others. For those unwilling to try and learn, I think it better to show them that technique overrules strength. My favorite thing to do is show ZERO emotion when dealing with A-holes. Just have a very neutral, all business look when I am applying submissions almost a look of being bored. That usually takes the "aggressiveness" out of em pretty quick.

[FuriousGeorge]

The best way to handle the agressive new guy in my book is to play even more passivly and relaxed. Newbies, especially agressive ones, are usually spastic and off ballance and they leave lots of space. I play guard, make it look like i'm going to snooze while they drive into me. Then snatch an armbar or a triangle or something when they hand it to me on a platter. uma platas are fun to catch on these people too, because chances are they have no idea what one is or how to roll out of it. After a few practices of exhausting themselves by wasting their energy, they'll start to figure out how to relax a little...thats when you have to be afraid.

[Brian R. VanCise]

The best way to handle the agressive new guy in my book is to play even more passivly and relaxed. Newbies, especially agressive ones, are usually spastic and off ballance and they leave lots of space. I play guard, make it look like i'm going to snooze while they drive into me. Then snatch an armbar or a triangle or something when they hand it to me on a platter. uma platas are fun to catch on these people too, because chances are they have no idea what one is or how to roll out of it. After a few practices of exhausting themselves by wasting their energy, they'll start to figure out how to relax a little...thats when you have to be afraid.

Definately good advice! Wait, be patient and relaxed. Then when they make a mistake or are winded show them the error of their way.

[pinky]

ya i have one guy in my class when we would sparr half contact he would go full contact i mean kicking in the head punching kneeing etc even when the girls would say they wanted to go easy he would hit them hard so i just pulled him aside and talked to him i dont know if it worked because he quite coming.

[Beginner's Mind]

In my Wing Chun class, I was once given a new guy as a partner. Turns out, he's got his head full of wrong ideas.

We were doing a very simple hand drill which didn't even resemble a fight (static stance, passive hand tucked in), but he kept trying to trick me and strike me as if this was real sparring.

The Sifu warned him about a hundred times, but the guy just took it to mean he was too advanced for the class. I tried to explain the purpose of the drill, but the guy lectured me to "toughen up."

So I said, "look, I'm a beginner. I haven't learned the proper control yet and if you come at me with tricks, I don't know how I'll react."

And he says, "whatever you throw at me, I can handle."

The next thing is, he's lying on the floor doubled up, gasping for breath, and I said, with my politest smile, "I told you I was a beginner - you really had to go slow with me when I asked." He replies I'm an aggressive idiot and, after the training, leaves never to be seen again.

Now, did I really act like an idiot? Perhaps. But I like to think I showed the guy how he was acting to me, and also that his view of himself as a tough fighter was just his overactive imagination. And anyway, it's better he left before he injured someone and disrupted more class...

[TehEl1te]

I always wondered this... what the limits are and what not... especially with Muay Thai. It should be as simple as "Hey, you're being a little too rough, its just a drill" and it's fixed. :\

[suicide]

:shooter: