Bashing ?

[terryl965]

Why on Earth do we as Ma'ers need the need to bash other MA'ers wheather we agree with them or not we must have Dignity and Humility and stay Humble enough to bring that to our students and our schools. No one man or woman is perfect and we all have our views but for the beginners of a Art that we tell to be respectful to all others and turn around and bash another instructor is un ethical to me anyway.:asian:

[MA-Caver]

First thing that came to mind when reading your question... Ego.
:idunno:

[dubljay]

First thing that came to mind when reading your question... Ego.
:idunno:
My thoughts exactly, though I was having a hard time trying to say it.

[MA-Caver]

My thoughts exactly, though I was having a hard time trying to say it.
Well considering that I don't *ahem* have an ego, it's easier for me to say it.

~Your ever humble servant :D

[TigerWoman]

I think that is why tradtional martial arts try to teach humility from white belt on up. Because as soon as people become black belt, or have set of skills and are recognized for them in their art, then they start comparing themselves to others. Maybe this is natural, this competition, and is a survival instinct. As black belts we should realize that we hardly, know everything. The bubble is burst when black belt is achieved and he/she finds out they are really now beginning serious training. We question everything to sort through all the information and try to get an understanding. But we forget everyone has an opinion some more based on experience or fact and its hard to know if it is correct. So we learned something one way, should we immediately disregard another's opinion? No, go back to the first lessons of humility you learned as a child. The ability to say, I'm sorry. Treat others like you want to be treated. Rudeness just produces more of the same. Be open and be respectful of others, because your opinion could be the wrong one. Its hard to learn something one way, and find out it could be wrong. We are all here on this board to learn from each other. And from the complexity of this world, its easy to lose patience with others. But no matter what opinion you have of yourself, if you are rude or impatient, hurtful, or boasting, nobody wants to know you. You might be an island unto yourself. TW

[Paul B]

No one man or woman is perfect and we all have our views

Sorry for the big snip buddy,but there is your answer. Some people just have a need to see their views out there,no matter how it reflects on them.


*I eat a slice of humble pie every day...it does an ego good!*:ultracool

[Miles]

Good question!

After "ego", I think the next best answer would be "insecurity."

Miles

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Don't make me whip out my ego and whoop yo ash!

D.

[Don Roley]

Excuse me.

If I see someone who is lying, abusing students or doing anything else I consider to be evil, I will stand up and say so.

Some people have said that this is bashing. So be it. Would you stand aside while someone molests a child just so that you could stand firm to the principle of "if you can't say somethign nice about someone, don't say anything"?

I do not care if people think that I am not someone they would study under as long as when I go to bed I know that I have done all I can to keep evil in check. I consider those that turn a blind eye to evil deeds for fear of being thought less of as less than human.

And I am totally without remorse about bashing evil people. Deal with it!!!!

[punisher73]

I don't think he was referring to evil deeds done by instructors (again it's the instructor that abuses/molests etc. not the style). I thought he was referring more to the "it's not like our style, so it's bad" mentality that you see so prevalant in the MA world.

I think it's a combination of ego and insecurity. I also think that as people we want to believe that what we have invested ourselves in is "the best" so we will look for ways to bring others down.

[RRouuselot]

Excuse me.

If I see someone who is lying, abusing students or doing anything else I consider to be evil, I will stand up and say so.

Some people have said that this is bashing. So be it. Would you stand aside while someone molests a child just so that you could stand firm to the principle of "if you can't say somethign nice about someone, don't say anything"?

I do not care if people think that I am not someone they would study under as long as when I go to bed I know that I have done all I can to keep evil in check. I consider those that turn a blind eye to evil deeds for fear of being thought less of as less than human.

And I am totally without remorse about bashing evil people. Deal with it!!!!

I agree Don. If I saw something like that I would take a personal interest in the situation.
I work on US military bases all over Japan and on a Marine base there was a sign I liked.
It said: “If you see something wrong and do nothing about it it’s because you are a coward”. This is actually a take on something a Pope said several 100 years ago….but it’s still true today.

As for “bashing”……isn’t this thread kind of hypocritical…..I mean isn't this thread bashing the bashers?

[dubljay]

If you want a good example of bashing take a look at the TKD forum and read the thread about improving kicking speed. It seemed to me that a few of people felt the need to attack the person's rank that posted the thread rather than help that person out with advice. I am not trying to embarras anyone or point fingers, I just found it a bit shocking.

[Knifehand]

As for “bashing”……isn’t this thread kind of hypocritical…..I mean isn't this thread bashing the bashers?
No it isn't, and yes they deserve it. People who bash another art are people who don't understand the true meaning of Martial Arts. Like this style doesn't teach SD very well. Maybe its not that art's focus. Some martial arts are more geared toward a lifestyle than SD.

But, regardless, people who bash other martial arts are incapable of understanding true martial arts.

[loki09789]

Good question!

After "ego", I think the next best answer would be "insecurity."

Miles
THere is also the 'pride out of balance' idea. People can be proud and confident in what they do, but that doesn't mean that others should feel less.

The problem I see is that in order to do well and survive a self defense situation, the mental aspect that you will not be dominated, that you will survive - even when all the technique has failed you - faith in yourself has to be strong.....but then you have to be able to 'switch mental gears' to the training mentallity of a good student for training purposes that, though you have something good, others will as well.

[Kenpodoc]

On the positive side some of the bashing comes from strong loyalties coupled with a strong drive for perfection. Both admirable qualities which sometimes cause people to say and do things they might not otherwise do. This coupled with the unfortunate tendancy in electronic communications for people to forget common politeness (no immediate verbal or facial clues to redirect the speaker) leads to poorly worded or inappropriate responses. (There are of course a few people who are just plain rude.)

My advice, treasure the strong emotions, learn what you can and practice ignoring overly agressive responses.

Respectfully,

Jeff

[hardheadjarhead]

Why do they bash?

The arts attract people that often (not always, but often) have one or both of the following characteristics:

Aggression.

Insecurity and a resultant need for power...either perceived or actual. This ties in with an intellectual insecurity and a need to be "right."


Given human nature, its rather unrealistic to expect people (some, not all) to follow this pattern. Check other forums on other heated subjects and you'll get the same sort of agonism.

Try a gun forum. Go and argue the merits of a .357 versus a .45 for "stopping power," or argue the idea of "stopping power" in and of itself. The responses you get will be as if you called someone's mother a name.


Regards,


Steve

[dubljay]

Try a gun forum. Go and argue the merits of a .357 versus a .45 for "stopping power," or argue the idea of "stopping power" in and of itself. The responses you get will be as if you called someone's mother a name.

I think I would shoot myself before attempting something like that, save them the trouble.

[Raewyn]

Why on Earth do we as Ma'ers need the need to bash other MA'ers wheather we agree with them or not we must have Dignity and Humility and stay Humble enough to bring that to our students and our schools. No one man or woman is perfect and we all have our views but for the beginners of a Art that we tell to be respectful to all others and turn around and bash another instructor is un ethical to me anyway.:asian:



Hi all. havent been posting for a while. Guess I got too scared in case my opinions got bashed!!!! I am only a nvoice in MA, and most of the advise on these forums are really good. I think people need to realise that there are different ways of looking at things. It is always good to get other opinions. Helps to look at thinks in different prospectives. Tunnel vision is not a good thing.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Hi all. havent been posting for a while. Guess I got too scared in case my opinions got bashed!!!! I am only a nvoice in MA, and most of the advise on these forums are really good. I think people need to realise that there are different ways of looking at things. It is always good to get other opinions. Helps to look at thinks in different prospectives. Tunnel vision is not a good thing.I guess that depends on the tunnel you're envisioning?http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)
:-partyon:

D.

[RRouuselot]

No it isn't, and yes they deserve it. 1) People who bash another art are people who don't understand the true meaning of Martial Arts. 2) Like this style doesn't teach SD very well. Maybe its not that art's focus. 3) Some martial arts are more geared toward a lifestyle than SD.

4) But, regardless, people who bash other martial arts are incapable of understanding true martial arts.

1) I guess it all depends on what you consider “bashing”.

2) I was always under the impression that a martial art by definition was about self-defense and if not then it was something other than a martial art. As for some styles not teaching self-defense very well……it’s true some don’t, but it is not the fault of the art but the instructor.

3) I am sorry I don’t know what you are trying to say here. Can you explain please?

4) That would be your opinion anyway. It may or may not be true. Since we now know what you think is not a true martial artist then in your opinion what is a “true martial artist”?

[An Eternal Student]

I think its because people really want to believe that what they have is in some way special.People like thinking "This is mine and its the greatest". It seems to be apride in ownership thing, and a lot of people become very possesive of their styles.It's THEIR style, and THEIR martial art.So therfore they want it to be better than other peoples.So they praise their own and criticise others, not wanting to admit that their style is just as open to criticism.Every style has is strenghts and weaknesses, but often people become tempted to only notice their strengths and everyone elses weaknesses.

:ultracool Why cant more people be humble like me?Im quite proud of my humilty really.Hehe, only kidding.

[Fbettincourt]

I was always under the impression that character development was part of the martial arts. Someone would not be taught the higher levels of the art if they did not demonstrate proper character.

Peace,
FB

[RRouuselot]

1) I think its because people really want to believe that what they have is in some way special.People like thinking "This is mine and its the greatest". It seems to be apride in ownership thing, and a lot of people become very possesive of their styles.It's THEIR style, and THEIR martial art. So therfore they want it to be better than other peoples.

2) So they praise their own and criticise others, not wanting to admit that their style is just as open to criticism.

3) Every style has is strenghts and weaknesses, but often people become tempted to only notice their strengths and everyone elses weaknesses.

:ultracoolWhy cant more people be humble like me?Im quite proud of my humilty really.Hehe, only kidding.

1) I don’t think the style I train in is better or worse than any other style.

2) I think peoples approach to training is very open to criticism….styles aren’t.

3) Actually no they don’t….at least not in the big picture. Making a blanket statement like that is like saying a car has a defect because the driver ran a red light. It’s not the cars fault it’s the person executing the driving. You can me and Mikka Hakkinen the exact same race car and he will kick my ass. Styles, like cars, are only as good as the driver behind the wheel or the person teaching you how to drive.

[An Eternal Student]

1) I don’t think the style I train in is better or worse than any other style.

2) I think peoples approach to training is very open to criticism….styles aren’t.

3) Actually no they don’t….at least not in the big picture. Making a blanket statement like that is like saying a car has a defect because the driver ran a red light. It’s not the cars fault it’s the person executing the driving. You can me and Mikka Hakkinen the exact same race car and he will kick my ass. Styles, like cars, are only as good as the driver behind the wheel or the person teaching you how to drive.

1.You're style isnt better or worse and niethier is mine.My comments were aimed at those people who feel the need th boast about the superiority of their style.Which is a failry common occurence.

2.A style has both weaknesses and strengths.There are some situations it is suited to dealing with, and some it is not.In that regard, it can be criticsed for its inability to deal with certain situations.There are people who eagerly point out theses flaws in a style, while refusing to acknowledge that there may be flaws in their own.I was merely pointing out that this attitude exists.

3. Both the style and the person who practices it are important.It is the correct combination of the two that creates a formidable warrior, not simply one on its own.

[RRouuselot]

1.You're style isnt better or worse and niethier is mine.My comments were aimed at those people who feel the need th boast about the superiority of their style.Which is a failry common occurence.

2.A style has both weaknesses and strengths.There are some situations it is suited to dealing with, and some it is not.In that regard, it can be criticsed for its inability to deal with certain situations.There are people who eagerly point out theses flaws in a style, while refusing to acknowledge that there may be flaws in their own.I was merely pointing out that this attitude exists.

3. Both the style and the person who practices it are important.It is the correct combination of the two that creates a formidable warrior, not simply one on its own.
1)True.

2)I still disagree and here is why. People used to say that Karate had no grappling art it was all just kick and punch……however, certain knowledgeable teachers have shown those naïve people to be wrong about their perception of an art they thought they knew well…some of them quite high ranking teachers in karate too. It’s the way you use the art and how much you understand it and how deeply you take that understanding.

3)I sort of agree with this. The practitioner has a great deal to do with the execution of the art. I used to think Tai Chi was a wussy art until I went to Taiwan/China and a really good teacher showed me stuff I never thought existed in Taichi. This just goes to show that people are never done learning their own art and showed always strive to look for deeper meaning in what they practice.

[loki09789]

I was always under the impression that character development was part of the martial arts. Someone would not be taught the higher levels of the art if they did not demonstrate proper character.

Peace,
FB

That is what people say, hang on walls, use as justification to see 'insult' in comments about them from other people.....but rarely is it shown or demonstrated in MA to the ideal that is discussed.

How many times do our own instructors, we ourselves, or at least we laugh along with someone else's comments about someone else, someone else's art.... because we think it is okay because the students/kids are out of the room so to speak....integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. Personally, 'Character development' is a personal journey that you can use MA training to help develop, but people will 'rise and die' on a daily basis with issues of character.

THe only real 'character' that I can find in martial arts is when people are willing to 'measure' others and themselves by how people deal with those mistakes that are going to be made.

Do we repeat them over and over with no change in frequency or intensity? Then there is no 'development' happening.

Do we verbally apologize, go through gestures of 'I'm Sorry' but make no real effort to look inside and change? Then there is no 'development.'

Other than conduct codes, daily martial arts classes don't really do any more for character development than just showing up to work on time with all your toys and acting civilly with your fellows.

[An Eternal Student]

2)I still disagree and here is why. People used to say that Karate had no grappling art it was all just kick and punch……however, certain knowledgeable teachers have shown those naïve people to be wrong about their perception of an art they thought they knew well…some of them quite high ranking teachers in karate too. It’s the way you use the art and how much you understand it and how deeply you take that understanding.



However the movements of a style are the physical enactment of its principles and its philosophy.And naturally enough a prinicple is not applicable to every situation.Therefore there will always be instances where it would be better to enact a different principle, just as there will be instances where the principle is the right one to use.I hope Im not talking crap here, it made sense inside my head.

[RRouuselot]

That is what people say, hang on walls, use as justification to see 'insult' in comments about them from other people.....but rarely is it shown or demonstrated in MA to the ideal that is discussed.

How many times do our own instructors, we ourselves, or at least we laugh along with someone else's comments about someone else, someone else's art.... because we think it is okay because the students/kids are out of the room so to speak....integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. Personally, 'Character development' is a personal journey that you can use MA training to help develop, but people will 'rise and die' on a daily basis with issues of character.

THe only real 'character' that I can find in martial arts is when people are willing to 'measure' others and themselves by how people deal with those mistakes that are going to be made.

Do we repeat them over and over with no change in frequency or intensity? Then there is no 'development' happening.

Do we verbally apologize, go through gestures of 'I'm Sorry' but make no real effort to look inside and change? Then there is no 'development.'

Other than conduct codes, daily martial arts classes don't really do any more for character development than just showing up to work on time with all your toys and acting civilly with your fellows.
Excellent post.

[hardheadjarhead]

I was always under the impression that character development was part of the martial arts. Someone would not be taught the higher levels of the art if they did not demonstrate proper character.

Peace,
FB


No. Not all arts have the goal of developing character. While some attempt to do so, many others give it little consideration at all. Some on this forum would say that the latter systems aren't "true" martial arts. In doing so they discount a huge number of systems from various countries throughout Asia and the West.

Regards,


Steve

[RRouuselot]

However the movements of a style are the physical enactment of its principles and its philosophy.And naturally enough a prinicple is not applicable to every situation.Therefore there will always be instances where it would be better to enact a different principle, just as there will be instances where the principle is the right one to use.I hope Im not talking crap here, it made sense inside my head.
It makes sense

[ppko]

2) As for some styles not teaching self-defense very well……it’s true some don’t, but it is not the fault of the art but the instructor.

And sometimes it goes down a long list of instructors.

[ppko]

Hi all. havent been posting for a while. Guess I got too scared in case my opinions got bashed!!!! I am only a nvoice in MA, and most of the advise on these forums are really good. I think people need to realise that there are different ways of looking at things. It is always good to get other opinions. Helps to look at thinks in different prospectives. Tunnel vision is not a good thing.Glad to see you back here what happened to Sarah

[Fbettincourt]

Regarding character development, Loki, you are correct. Too many people make the same mistake over and over again. Constant and never ending improvement is what I was referring to. We all make mistakes, that is a given. What we learn from those mistakes and how we use it to propel our lives forward, is but a vehicle that the martial arts can be useful for, in addition to self defense.

peace,

FB

[Sin]

Bashers are not True Maists...

For Example

PPKO and I have had our differences....and in the beginning we did bash on each other....Now I would consider him an internet buddy of mine. In the beginning I was blinded by ignorence and prejeduice...and I came to relize...its not about who you learned from...its about what you know and how you use your knowledge and your skill. that is why he is one Martial talker that i would like to meet...one day.

bashing gets us no where..........

Its when we agree to Disagree we truely gain knowledge.

[loki09789]

Regarding character development, Loki, you are correct. Too many people make the same mistake over and over again. Constant and never ending improvement is what I was referring to. We all make mistakes, that is a given. What we learn from those mistakes and how we use it to propel our lives forward, is but a vehicle that the martial arts can be useful for, in addition to self defense.

peace,

FB
The other thing to consider is how we, individually, define our habits/tendencies/personallity traits as either 'good' or 'bad' and pidgeon hole ourselves.

Is it that you are making the same 'mistakes' because you aren't changing yourself or because you aren't developing the personal awareness and integrity to say to yourself:

" I know that I am a chocaholic and if I get around it, I won't stop eating - even when I know I should. So, except for holidays - when I let myself indulge - I won't buy it, store it, keep it in the house."

The example is a safe one so as not to insult anyone, but the same idea could be applied to any habit/ideosyncracy that you know exists.

Sometimes the mistake isn't in the habit (because that may be just 'the way you are') but in whether or not you 'break the cycle' that leads up to those moments when that 'mistake' will be repeated over and over....

[loki09789]

Bashers are not True Maists...

For Example

PPKO and I have had our differences....and in the beginning we did bash on each other....Now I would consider him an internet buddy of mine. In the beginning I was blinded by ignorence and prejeduice...and I came to relize...its not about who you learned from...its about what you know and how you use your knowledge and your skill. that is why he is one Martial talker that i would like to meet...one day.

bashing gets us no where..........

Its when we agree to Disagree we truely gain knowledge.Bashers ARE True MArtists IMO, just at a particular point in personal evolution. To label someone a 'basher' or 'non basher' as being 'in' or 'out' of the cool club is as bad as being a basher. Acknowledging that 'character development' is a life long journey and not subject to the instant gratifications that outsiders impose on our own development.

How can we be patient with ourselve, forgive ourselve our faults - and therefore 'let go of them' instead of dwelling on them (self fulfilled prophecy) if we let such labels act as permanent brands?

I got interested and exposed to eastern philosophy because of MA but, honestly, I practice MA for the purpose of self defense not 'character development.' The tools that I use for 'character development' are influenced by those things that I learned as I developed as a martial artist - but the same could be said for how any other athelete can develop if the coach/team/league has a philosophy beyond just winning and wants to develop work ethic, honesty, teamwork.....

\

[loki09789]

Regarding character development, Loki, you are correct. Too many people make the same mistake over and over again. Constant and never ending improvement is what I was referring to. We all make mistakes, that is a given. What we learn from those mistakes and how we use it to propel our lives forward, is but a vehicle that the martial arts can be useful for, in addition to self defense.

peace,

FBMA, if taught with that goal in mind, is a good tool for teaching character lessons and reinforcing good character habits.

Boy Scouts, Sports, chores at home, part time jobs, school, military service, volunteering ....all are good developers/reinforcers of 'life lessons' if someone mentors you through the process of contemplating what you did well and what you need to improve.

I have learned the most from getting fired, getting dumped (emotionally and in MA class) and falling flat on my face more than I have from getting cheered or pat on the back.

[ppko]

PPKO and I have had our differences....and in the beginning we did bash on each other....Now I would consider him an internet buddy of mine. In the beginning I was blinded by ignorence and prejeduice...and I came to relize...its not about who you learned from...its about what you know and how you use your knowledge and your skill. that is why he is one Martial talker that i would like to meet...one day.

bashing gets us no where..........

Its when we agree to Disagree we truely gain knowledge.I consider you a internet buddy as well like I always have said any one that wishes to come down and visit my school is welcome to do so. We will all truelly start to pick up more knowledge when we empty our cups and allow new ideas to pass. You are right bashing will get us no where, what people need to do is if they do not understand a style check it out, not everyone is as good at putting stuff on the net as they are at doing there arts.

[Kenpobuff]

Isn't there a belt creed or oath that addresses not speaking ill of other instructors?

[ppko]

Isn't there a belt creed or oath that addresses not speaking ill of other instructors?There may be, but if you look at it like this, fueds have been happening in the Martial Arts for forever, much like religion you will never get the fueds to stop.

[Knifehand]

regardless of creed, ethic, association or the like... people will always be people. :EG:
Opinions are the most dangerous thing a person can own and one of the most precious.

Personally, i've made it a point to no talk about any other style than TSD and always to talk from a TSD point of view because its the only style i've ever known. I hate sounding ignorant and what have you. This doesn't work for everyone, but it saves me a lot of "hate mail"

Every MA has its use. but everyone has their own opinion on what being in a MA means. But it is your opinion, not mine... not anyone else but yours... people may agree with you, but be prepared for disagreements.

That opinion, on what a MA means, influences your view of other Martial arts. TSD is a mix of SD, competition, internal and external development. not slotted for one area or another... some people take issue with this... Traditionalists, Like myself, like the idea of a historical background, but i'm not opposed to the newer martial arts out there... they all have their uses.

Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest of violence.
Francis Jeffrey (1773 - 1850)

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)

[loki09789]

There may be, but if you look at it like this, fueds have been happening in the Martial Arts for forever, much like religion you will never get the fueds to stop.
That is the best comparison because they are both ideologies that have many different variations on...and none too well understood by the followers (partly because the 'leaders' don't always articulate/codify or explain it well themselves) and gets another layer of 'spin' on it.....

I mean really: How many people 'learn about what martial arts really is about' from sources like Karate Kid movies, the Matrix..... and not really from their instructor or training time? I know as an early student, much of what I thought martial arts was 'really about' was based on inspirational/parable stories and such. My training time was mainly about me learning how to control my movement/emotions and eyes (to avoid ogling the female students or scowling at those students that I 'hated because they were better than me'.....) NOT about lectures or direct instruction on character.

character was one of those things that was explained through expectations and the upholding of standards: "You do not swear in class, it is disrespectful" was the expectation. If I swore in class, I got 'corrected' and the rules were reinforced. If I did it again, I was held accountable (punished somehow, push ups...what ever).

There wasn't a lot of 'Now, Paul, in order to be a good person....."

[still learning]

Hello, Bashing? It is always easier to find fault in others, Why can't we see ours? Oh I forgot we don't have any? .......Aloha

[terryl965]

Hello, Bashing? It is always easier to find fault in others, Why can't we see ours? Oh I forgot we don't have any? .......Aloha Hello Still Learning I do have faults in myself and I learn everyday something new. As I was the one starting this post I take your comment personally. I was referring why as a MA community can we not except different points of views without directing negatively about someone Art wheather TKD or Kung Fu or EPAK we have to learn from each other to be able to grow to true enlightment and if you do not believe in true enlightment than I'm sorry. I hope your cup will always be full in life.

[ppko]

That is the best comparison because they are both ideologies that have many different variations on...and none too well understood by the followers (partly because the 'leaders' don't always articulate/codify or explain it well themselves) and gets another layer of 'spin' on it.....

I mean really: How many people 'learn about what martial arts really is about' from sources like Karate Kid movies, the Matrix..... and not really from their instructor or training time? I know as an early student, much of what I thought martial arts was 'really about' was based on inspirational/parable stories and such. My training time was mainly about me learning how to control my movement/emotions and eyes (to avoid ogling the female students or scowling at those students that I 'hated because they were better than me'.....) NOT about lectures or direct instruction on character.

character was one of those things that was explained through expectations and the upholding of standards: "You do not swear in class, it is disrespectful" was the expectation. If I swore in class, I got 'corrected' and the rules were reinforced. If I did it again, I was held accountable (punished somehow, push ups...what ever).

There wasn't a lot of 'Now, Paul, in order to be a good person....."Thank you and good post

[47MartialMan]

Bashment is not only ego, but a way to get more $$$$. Bashing should not be misconstrued as "constrcutive criticism" or a matter of personal opinion. How do you separate all of these?