Christian Martial Arts

[The Kai]

Hello
If this topic has been already beaten to death, please let me know.

Now this would be just opinions and viewed as such (weather You believe your opionin to be right or righteous)

What thoughts on Christialn Martial Arts? Not so much the average go to Church onb Sunday, Karate on Monday. But those who use the Martial arts to reinforce Doctrine-like calling a guard Stance "He protects the Innocent" Stance.

Is this a valid attempt to westerize the arts?
Is it a attempt to whitewash the history of the arts?

Todd

[Andrew Green]

"But those who use the Martial arts to reinforce Doctrine-like calling a guard Stance "He protects the Innocent" Stance."

I say publish a book naming it "Satan shows his claws"

:D

[Jeff Boler]

Is this a valid attempt to westerize the arts?
Is it a attempt to whitewash the history of the arts?

Todd

I think the subject is too broad to give an accurate answer. Different people have different methods of how they do this. Personally, I have an MMA that I created myself based upon the years I spent in various other arts. I don't claim any historical lineage, as I don't teach the same religious principles and beliefs. If you are a teacher in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, then the religious training should match that of the particular art. I don't think that a "Christian Sect" holds much validity.

That's not to say that Christian Martials Arts have any less validity. But the inclusion of Christianity into a martial arts style is NEW, not ancient.

As long as the disitinction is made a head of time, then I have no problem with it whatsoever.

[Shidan]

Trying to mix church view with an activity such as martial arts is no different then taking rock rhythm music and adding 'chuchy' words.

It is a method to try to sell something that is viewed as fun and corrupt it by beating the bible into someone's head.

Believing in a higher power has little to do with a martial art technique - ones believes and values should not be crammed down someone's through when you lure them in under the gise of an activity.

Practice what you believe in your daily life and others will learn from you when you set the good example. Force feeding bible-stuff is no way to build a following and tainting your martial arts class is doing both activities (church and MA) a disservice.

[Jeff Boler]

Trying to mix church view with an activity such as martial arts is no different then taking rock rhythm music and adding 'chuchy' words.

It is a method to try to sell something that is viewed as fun and corrupt it by beating the bible into someone's head.

Believing in a higher power has little to do with a martial art technique - ones believes and values should not be crammed down someone's through when you lure them in under the gise of an activity.


Your generalizations here are tad broad, and I think you are operating under the assumption that we "beat the bible" into someone's head. That's simply not the case.

As I stated previously, it's too broad a topic, as each Christian Martial Arts instructor has different teaching methods. We do not have Bible study, nor do we constantly discuss the bible. However, we are sponsored by our church, we hold classes in our church, and at least 50% of the schools earnings goes to the church.


Practice what you believe in your daily life and others will learn from you when you set the good example. Force feeding bible-stuff is no way to build a following and tainting your martial arts class is doing both activities (church and MA) a disservice.

The same could be said about sports and martial arts. And again, we don't force-feed anybody. Your assumptions are way off base, and down-right insulting.

[The Kai]

What about Dojo's that meditate or have a Kamizan/ Is it Okay to pray or put a cross in the head of the dojo?

Todd

[Jeff Boler]

What about Dojo's that meditate or have a Kamizan/ Is it Okay to pray or put a cross in the head of the dojo?

Todd

Again, I think it depends on the art form they are teaching. If they are claiming to teach a ryu that has roots in Buddhism or some other religion, then I have a problem with it. Not because they are using Christianity as their religious foundation, but because they are teaching a system of martial arts that is based on another religion. I'm not sure you can go in and change the spiritual aspects, and use the original name. I don't think that's right. You are, in fact, changing the art.

However, if it is modern style of martial arts that is self created, then I think they can participate in any religious ceremony that they wish.

I don't require any of my students be Christian, nor do I "beat them over the heads with Bibles." But I do require them to respect my religious beliefs, and I, in turn, respect theirs.

[Jeff Boler]

One other thing to consider is that not all Christian's have the same beliefs on all things.

Example: My daughter attends preschool at the same Christian School / Church that I hold classes. She has recently become interested in the Harry Potter series of movies, and has been discussing this with classmates. She scolded (in a way) by her teacher for watching something that she considered to be evil. In her eyes, a movie about Witchcraft and Wizardry is evil.

Now, we attend the same church, and are apart of the same denomination. However, I have no problem whatsoever with Harry Potter, and I realize that most kids just few this as fantasy. Something fun to watch. Older people who were raised differently, believe otherwise.

There's no right, and there's no wrong. It becomes wrong when you FORCE your opinion on someone, and the try to hold them accountable. If I have a different opinion than someone that is testing for their blackbelt, and I hold them back due to that difference, then I would be wrong.

There are extremists in every religion. For example, I belong to a Christian Based Martial Arts Association who sends an electronic newsletter on a weekly basis. In one recent article, the writer expressed his sorrow that millions of the victims of the recent Tsunami are going to hell, because they didn't have the chance to learn about Christianity, and covert. I have a problem with this. I don't think that anyone who doesn't have the opportunity to learn about the Christian faith, dies and goes to hell. I think the circumstances surrounding their lives are clearly taken into account. To me, this idea is an extreme viewpoint.

So again, don't base your opinions on your personal experiences in a church alone. We may all believe in the fundamentals of Christianity, but our viewpoints on different subjects may be vastly different.

[Sin]

Crouching Satan Hidden Jesus??

Its ok to have a religious figure in a dojo, so i agree with the Kai,

This topic has been brought up before, but the only problem with worshiping a religious figure in a dojo is, what happens when you get someone who is not of the religion that the figure represents and tht person tells you take it down or I'm gone...you can lose some students that way. But on the other hand, its a privatly owned business, so it is up to the owner to what figure to represented. and it is the owners perrogative.

What i am saying to those of you who go to a Dojo that has a religious figure represented tehre, and you don't belive in that figure, and its required of you to bow...BOW ANYWAYS...your not worshiping the figure you are doing nothing more than showing respect for the people who do belive in the figure.

I hope this post made since to most of you. My respects to all.
:asian:

[Jeff Boler]

What i am saying to those of you who go to a Dojo that has a religious figure represented tehre, and you don't belive in that figure, and its required of you to bow...BOW ANYWAYS...your not worshiping the figure you are doing nothing more than showing respect for the people who do belive in the figure.

Excellent point. :asian:

[Andrew Green]

What i am saying to those of you who go to a Dojo that has a religious figure represented tehre, and you don't belive in that figure, and its required of you to bow...BOW ANYWAYS...your not worshiping the figure you are doing nothing more than showing respect for the people who do belive in the figure.

Not that simple for some...

Suppose it was agianst your religion to eat pork.

You go to a dinner that has ceremonial pig roast, It is still against your religion to eat the pig, regardless of you wanting to respect the beliefs of others.

Some peoples religious views do not allow them to do certain things which are maybe no big thing to you, but you have a different religion. Shouldn't part of "respect other peoples beliefs" include not expecting them to participate in your rituals? Especially if it is a volation of theirs?

[Jeff Boler]

Not that simple for some...

Suppose it was agianst your religion to eat pork.

You go to a dinner that has ceremonial pig roast, It is still against your religion to eat the pig, regardless of you wanting to respect the beliefs of others.

Some peoples religious views do not allow them to do certain things which are maybe no big thing to you, but you have a different religion. Shouldn't part of "respect other peoples beliefs" include not expecting them to participate in your rituals? Especially if it is a volation of theirs?

Oh sure, there are always going to be instances where this type of thing will happen. To be perfectly honest, if someone does not want to participate in a "religious ritual" that I believe in, that's perfectly ok with me. I respect their reasons for not doing it, as long as they respect for mine for doing it.

[OUMoose]

Hello
If this topic has been already beaten to death, please let me know.

Now this would be just opinions and viewed as such (weather You believe your opionin to be right or righteous)

What thoughts on Christialn Martial Arts? Not so much the average go to Church onb Sunday, Karate on Monday. But those who use the Martial arts to reinforce Doctrine-like calling a guard Stance "He protects the Innocent" Stance.

Is this a valid attempt to westerize the arts?
Is it a attempt to whitewash the history of the arts?

Todd

You may want to check out Systema and their teaching a little. As quoted from the Systema Headquarters (http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=philosophy):

As the roots of the Russian System are in the Russian Orthodox Christian faith, the belief is that everything that happens to us, good or bad, has only one ultimate purpose. That is to create the best possible conditions for each person to understand himself. Proper training in the Russian System carries the same objective – to put every participant into the best possible setting for him to realize as much about himself as he is able to handle at any given moment.

Not exactly a MA wrapped around Christianity, but it's a start. Hope that helps!

[Danjo]

.

[Sin]

I don't think that there is any religion out there that says "do not show respect to others"

If you can find one sanctioned by a goverenment...please I really would like know...cause I have been catholic all my life and I was confirmed without even seeing other religions.

[Andrew Green]

Who said anything about not showing respect?

That is different from not participating in something, even if you might find it trivial (ex bowing) Shouldn't that persons religion be respected and them allowed to not do it without being made to feel bad about it?

[hardheadjarhead]

There are extremists in every religion. For example, I belong to a Christian Based Martial Arts Association who sends an electronic newsletter on a weekly basis. In one recent article, the writer expressed his sorrow that millions of the victims of the recent Tsunami are going to hell, because they didn't have the chance to learn about Christianity, and covert.


Given that about a quarter of a million people died in that disaster (and not millions), I'd have to disagree with them, too.

I personally see nothing wrong with a person practicing Christianity and the martial arts, or integrating them as however they see fit. I've a number of Christians in my school who have reconciled whatever frictions there might be between their faith and the art they practice.

I know of one instructor who teaches "Christian kung fu." This is fine, but he's somewhat exclusionary and expects his students to wear crosses on their sashes and (I think) begin practice with a prayer. When they do a salutation they're "calling down the holy spirit."

There is nothing wrong with any of this, I suppose, other than he might alienate a certain number of Christians who don't see eye to eye with him...and he's certainly cutting out the secular crowd, the jews, buddhists, hindus, etc. I think he views this as a form of ministry, however.

I think he has a handful of students right now.


Regards,


Steve

[Marginal]

What thoughts on Christialn Martial Arts? Not so much the average go to Church onb Sunday, Karate on Monday. But those who use the Martial arts to reinforce Doctrine-like calling a guard Stance "He protects the Innocent" Stance.

Is this a valid attempt to westerize the arts?
Is it a attempt to whitewash the history of the arts?

ToddNo more so than having Christian Bowling, Christian fencing, Christian boxing, Christian ice blocking...

Does it add to or otherwise enhance the activity? Not really.

[Darksoul]

-When it comes to practicing martial arts, I believe that the practice should be between the art and the person. If you believe in something or someone, such as God, then that belief will more than likely be felt throughout all actions, all moments. Of course, it may come down to what you want out of the practice. Are we looking to become better martial artists, better people, more religious? I would say that is up to the individual. I go to class and bow to the founder and grandmasters and the statue of General Kwan, though its not required, and I certainly don't feel it as intruding on my spiritual beliefs. I believe it all depends of the situation, and people should feel comfortable to make their own decisions in class. You want to say a prayer before class? Go for it. Me, I'll be over in the corner stretching my legs, complaining about cold weather and stiff joints;-)


A---)

[psi_radar]

My father is a Quaker, which obviously precluded me from studying martial arts at a young age--which I wanted to do but couldn't, since quakers are total pacifists. I'd say your interpretation of the Christian faith would play a large role--like any religion, there's militant sects and pacifists. Some would say turn the other cheek, and pray for their soul, others may decide to return the blow. There's been a lot of violence in the name of Christianity. Remember the Crusades, the Inquisition, the colonization of South America. Systema is also steeped in the Russian Orthodox religion, though it's not absolutely required for its practice.

[bart]

Hey All,

It's interesting but a lot of Filipino Martial Arts have Christian undertones such as San Miguel Eskrima and Tres Personas. There is a group here in Sacramento called Warriors of Righteousness that does the Estalilla Kabaroan system.

Considerations have to be taken into account to for whether the art is taught as a cultural art as with Gatka and the Sikhs. It's difficult to secularize some arts as the religious aspect pervades that symbols and analogies an art may use to teach such as "Buddha hand" in some kung fu, and the Crucifix form in some eskrima.

[terryl965]

I've read the whole post as far as I can, I personally believe in God and so be it. That does not give me the right to influence people about my religous preference. My job as a Dojaang owner is to teach the Art and sport of TKD to my student body, that is what they pay me to do. Now on the other hand if my Dojaang was part of a church or prayer center then I would be expected to include that religous aspect into my teaching. God is everywhere even in the Dojaang but most imporantly he is in your heart no matter if you practice your Art on top of the city dumb, he is there with you step by step. In case you asked later no I'm not Christian base my wife and boy's are Catholics and I'm Jewish we attend a Catholic church. I believe that every individual has the right to choice there way of thinking, one can only be influence if they choice to be.

[The Kai]

http://ambassadormartialarts.org/abc/index.php?p=56
Check out this link. Over the top or what

What about a instructor that states "you can't understand the Martial Arts if you are not christian"
???
Todd

[Ray]

There's no right, and there's no wrong. It becomes wrong when you FORCE your opinion on someone, and the try to hold them accountable.
IMO, there are some things that are clearly wrong (1st degree murder to name one).

[Ray]

I don't see the need to put a Christian spin on the Martial Arts. When I became a student of the Martial Arts, I didn't immediately accept all things Asian either.

If I want to have a cross in my studio then I will. If I want to have "pass along" cards or free scriptures available then I will. But I don't have these things in my studio.

If I happen to live my life in such a way that prompts someone to ask about my beliefs then I'll share them in any place, at any time.

[rmclain]

It really surprises me that religious views in the dojang are an issue. I've never been in a dojang where religion was part of the training or curriculum. I've taught around 1200 students at my own school and through the UT-Arlington kinesiology department since 1994. In this time, there has never been a student come to me asking my religious affiliation or for a class with religion taught with the martial art.

R. McLain

[VSanhodo]

After reading the various posts related to this topic. I would like to offer my opinion on this subject. I believe, Martial Sciences and Religion are one and the same. I believe and teach that the martial sciences are the fighting sciences of the Angels given to us through them and God. Perhaps extreme for some, but my belief nonetheless. Be you religious or not. It is amazing to see how many ppl train yet how very very few truly know the Art itself. Beating the living daylights out of ppl isnt art, Thats pugilism, very barbaris and primal. Compare the vlaues, ethics and morals which are suppose to be part of Martial Sciences and compare them to Biblical text or your religion. Usually they follow the same path.
Study, train, learn and share.
God bless

San

[MichiganTKD]

Christianity doesn't belong in martial arts any more than Buddhism belongs in martial arts. Both are religions, and religion should be something personal. The philosophical and moral foundations of traditional martial arts are based on principles universal to all faiths (peacefulness, nonviolence etc.) So if you practice "Christian" martial arts because you think martial arts are too "Buddhist" otherwise, you are missing the point.
For the record, several of our Instructors are devoutly Christian, and have never expressed a problem with any aspect of Tae Kwon Do. They understand Tae Kwon Do is not religion and should not be used to promote any religion. In my opinion, Instructors who use martial arts to promote a Christian viewpoint are just as clueless as those who think you have to act like a Buddhist monk to really understand martial arts.

[bignick]

There's a Christian taekwondo school in my town. Never had any real compulsion to check it out, but I've always had just a tiny bit of curiosity of what that would be like...most likely not for me...one of my favorite quotes comes from a buddy of mine. If you've ever lived in dorms on a university campus you've probably had a flyer or something put on your door for some sort of Bible study or other activity. Well, one day I'm standing in the hallway talking to another friend and my buddy comes out of his room, looks at this flyer for some Christian event or group and he just tears it off his door looks around and says, "Stop forcing my religion on me..."

[still learning]

Hello, In Kajukenpo, they start their class with a prayer. We have the same exact prayer in Universal Kempo too. All students are not require to do the prayer if their beliefs are different.

In a way the martial arts is a religion, you need to believe in it. Teaches respect and caring for others. Taking a life for no reason is taught in most schools.

For others the words " Christian martial arts " is for those who find this is important enough for them to belong in the same beliefs, and like being with other Christians too. Like a second church. Everyone has their own opinions and right to belong to something.

At my parents home in Oahu, on the main street between our high school and my parents house at the top end, there is 13 churches on a three mile stretch of road, all different too. No Martial arts schools. .....Not to believe is to believe in nothing.......so we all believe in something....Aloha

[The Kai]

After reading the various posts related to this topic. I would like to offer my opinion on this subject. I believe, Martial Sciences and Religion are one and the same. I believe and teach that the martial sciences are the fighting sciences of the Angels given to us through them and God. Perhaps extreme for some, but my belief nonetheless. Be you religious or not. It is amazing to see how many ppl train yet how very very few truly know the Art itself. Beating the living daylights out of ppl isnt art, Thats pugilism, very barbaris and primal. Compare the vlaues, ethics and morals which are suppose to be part of Martial Sciences and compare them to Biblical text or your religion. Usually they follow the same path.
Study, train, learn and share.
God bless

San
The only thing is the angles first gave thier knowledge to, according to most christain doctrines, heathens (the orientals). Seems kinda of a strech that the angels would choose to give the knowledge outside yor clan?>
Todd

[The Kai]

I think most people forget why the Martial arts came about in the first place.

Karate-A form of guerilla warfare.
Juijitsu(Judo)-battlefield tactics employed whern you were stripped of or otherwise without your weapons.
Kung Fu- various either tactics and metyhods used by solidier or civian self defense tactics

All these arts were designed to fight!! The philosophy, tenets and codes of conduct are later additions to the arts. So would it matter if it is codified by eastern or western beliefs
Todd

[Sin]

If it is a christian MA.....correct me if i am wrong, but dosn't Jesus say to turn the ther cheek.

although he says treat others as you would want to be treated.....A paradox

[7starmantis]

There seems to be alot of strong feelings on this subject. In my opinion this is what makes America what it is. I know there are those not in the US here, but in free societies the owner of a business is free to do and conduct business with whomever they choose. Why so much cut and dry here? If a MA school owner wants to put up a bible in the school so what? Isn't that his/her prerogative as a free business owner? What if a schools owner wants to put up a book of satan, isn't that their prerogative as a free business owner? If it offends you, find another place to train or deal with it.
These differences are what make us as humans beautiful. I tend to enjoy the differences of other people, I think its awesome. I dont think the study of MA has anything to do with religion or faith, but thats just my take on it. I'm not arrogant enough to say my views are the only way or even the right way.

7sm

7sm

[Sin]

There seems to be alot of strong feelings on this subject. In my opinion this is what makes America what it is. I know there are those not in the US here, but in free societies the owner of a business is free to do and conduct business with whomever they choose. Why so much cut and dry here? If a MA school owner wants to put up a bible in the school so what? Isn't that his/her prerogative as a free business owner? What if a schools owner wants to put up a book of satan, isn't that their prerogative as a free business owner? If it offends you, find another place to train or deal with it.
These differences are what make us as humans beautiful. I tend to enjoy the differences of other people, I think its awesome. I dont think the study of MA has anything to do with religion or faith, but thats just my take on it. I'm not arrogant enough to say my views are the only way or even the right way.

7sm

7sm

::claps:: here here

That was perfectly said!!

[AnimEdge]

I know the Ninjutsu i study has a lot of 'Cristian' Belelif stuff in it like our Creed and so on that Bussey added on when he started RBWI but uh we dont really use them :P

[Miles]

From a purely physical standpoint-all martial arts techniques are amoral and without any religious underpinnings. However, the atmosphere in which they may be taught can have religious themes. Is it right to have them or wrong not to have them? I think the answer to both is "no."

But if you do train in a school which incorporates religious themes, I don't think that you are necessarily getting shortchanged-they are not softening the arts. They are merely adding a different dimension.

Miles

[Makalakumu]

I know of one instructor who teaches "Christian kung fu." This is fine, but he's somewhat exclusionary and expects his students to wear crosses on their sashes and (I think) begin practice with a prayer. When they do a salutation they're "calling down the holy spirit."

My partner at my 2nd dan test runs his dojang out of a fundamentalist church. I have gone to visit him on occasion and I have had the priviledge of teaching a few classes there.

They start class with the regular salutation that we learned from our instructor. The only difference is that between the American and Korean flags is the Cross. When we sit down and meditate, all students offer a prayer asking Jesus to aid them with their practice. Then the students stand and bow to their instructor.

The rest of class continues just like any other MA class. They do the same techniques that other secular students of the MA do. They have the same ranks and lists. They use the traditional Korean terms. And they Kihap just as loudly as anyone else in our art (it was later explained that the kihap was an expression of the Holy Spirit...like a very loud prayer).

Class ends with the same salutation to the flags/cross and then the instructor reads a pre-chosen bible passage to help the students understand the moral aspects of the art they practice from a Christian perspective.

I found this to be a powerful experience and I wish that I could remember some of the readings chosen because I was surprised at the relevence to MA training.

In this situation, the melding of religion and MA is entirely appropriate. To the students in dojang, praying to Jesus for guidance and looking to the bible for moral direction is their long time family tradition. I imagine that many of these students would pass over MA if they did not have the opportunity provided by my fellow Brother of the Spear.

upnorthkyosa

ps - The lesson I learned from this experience is that a certain amount of moral teaching is essential for the practice of our art. I now do the same in my dojang. However, I am not a Christian, so I do not limit my selections to the bible.

[Makalakumu]

I think most people forget why the Martial arts came about in the first place.

Karate-A form of guerilla warfare.
Juijitsu(Judo)-battlefield tactics employed whern you were stripped of or otherwise without your weapons.
Kung Fu- various either tactics and metyhods used by solidier or civian self defense tactics

All these arts were designed to fight!! The philosophy, tenets and codes of conduct are later additions to the arts. So would it matter if it is codified by eastern or western beliefs
Todd

There is a big difference between Bujutsu and Budo. The founder of Judo - Jigoro Kano, the founder of Shotokan - Gichin Funikoshi, and the founder of Aikido - Morihei Uyeshiba all had a lot to say about the moral aspects of their arts.

Therefore, I would posit that history isn't a real good yardstick to measure this problem. I believe that the founders' intentions speak more to issue.

upnorthkyosa

[Corporal Hicks]

There seems to be alot of strong feelings on this subject. In my opinion this is what makes America what it is. I know there are those not in the US here, but in free societies the owner of a business is free to do and conduct business with whomever they choose. Why so much cut and dry here? If a MA school owner wants to put up a bible in the school so what? Isn't that his/her prerogative as a free business owner? What if a schools owner wants to put up a book of satan, isn't that their prerogative as a free business owner? If it offends you, find another place to train or deal with it.
These differences are what make us as humans beautiful. I tend to enjoy the differences of other people, I think its awesome. I dont think the study of MA has anything to do with religion or faith, but thats just my take on it. I'm not arrogant enough to say my views are the only way or even the right way.

7sm

7smAgreed!

What I dont think is right however is that sometimes you simply want to train in a Martial Art and you go to a school, maybe in a church (say judo art) and you start training but before they train they say a prayer or something that is related to some religious teaching and they then you are ask you to recite it with them or to them.
Ok fair enough if its part of the art but if its part of their religion then no, especially if your not religious and especially if they tell you you cannot train unless you do so.


QUOTE = Miles
From a purely physical standpoint-all martial arts techniques are amoral and without any religious underpinnings.

-------------------------

Good point! Religious morals and beliefs are 'attached' to a Martial Art, its your choice what you want to do, kinda JKD in a way!
Everybody to their own I'd say!

[Makalakumu]

What I dont think is right however is that sometimes you simply want to train in a Martial Art and you go to a school, maybe in a church (say judo art) and you start training but before they train they say a prayer or something that is related to some religious teaching and they then you are ask you to recite it with them or to them.

Ok fair enough if its part of the art but if its part of their religion then no, especially if your not religious and especially if they tell you you cannot train unless you do so.

Don't you think that its only responsible for a martial arts instructor to not only teach how to do a technique, but why?

I think that for many people, religion can be a great tool to inform the "why" part of the equation. THAT in my opinion, is what a Christian Martial Art is really trying to accomplish.

[JAMJTX]

Asian martial arts are intertwined with Bhudism and Shintoism. So why not teach Christian principles too? Not too mention that there were Christian Samurai.

If you want to see some good Christian based kenpo see www.jmactiondvd.com (http://www.jmactiondvd.com)

[MichiganTKD]

Because Christianity is essentially a Western religion, and Tae Kwon Do, karate, and other Oriental martial arts are from the East. I don't think it is proper for Westerners to pick and choose what parts of Eastern martial arts culture they think is proper to learn. If you inject Christianity into martial arts, you degrade it from the way it was originally designed. For example, Westerners didn't invent Tae Kwon Do, and it is not up to us to decide it needs to be more Christian to be acceptable. Why should it? What exectly does Tae Kwon Do or any traditional martial art teach that is objectionable to Christians? Who cares, anyway? One of my colleagues taught Tae Kwon Do from a Catholic school gymnasium for years, and would never dream of altering the curriculum because he felt it wasn't "Christian" enough. It wasn't his decision, and he didn't have a problem with it.

[Makalakumu]

Most of the current arts that we practice took shape in the founders' minds at a time when the East was heavily influenced by Christianity. The late 1800s and early 1900s is not the feudal period and as martial artists we cannot pretend that somehow our arts purity extends back that far. Heck, in most of the Korean Martial Arts, we cannot even go back to the 1800s! If you care to look, there happen to be Christian principles that flow very nicely into the "do" we practice. There also happen to be Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, etc...

[TigerWoman]

My instructor/owner wants a Christian school. High rank are all Christian. Nobody makes it to blackbelt without being Christian. He has been overheard (by a Jewish friend) talking to parents that he wants all of his blackbelt instructors to be Christian. We don't do prayer before class but I can see it coming. He does put on Christian music and teaches about the bible in class.

This is my situation. I have always wanted a women's black belt class. After all I was the only woman for a long time and since I have been there, alot have joined. I was asked as a blue belt and taught/led kickboxing for three years until it was down to one student coming. He didn't advertise. I suggested doing community ed but he said no money in it. I was asked and assisted during kids classes for two years but did little as the master was teaching. Mostly I was there to close up. I taught when needed/substitution when required sometimes going to distant towns during bad road conditions. I taught an assigned "overweight/newbie" class of four but that wasn't advertised either and finally was just one woman who cleaned for him and came occasionally in return for the cleaning. It ended.

So two years ago, I am training for 2nd dan hard but still want my women's class and see a need for it. I ask for it in front of another red belt woman. He says why not teach kickboxing. I say I don't want nor have the physical energy to also teach kickboxing at that time. A week later, flyers go up and the red belt woman is given a "sparring" class for women only by community ed advertising. I attend and no sparring is ever done. They just want an regular workout. I attempted to also get a community ed class going twice--women's. Four people signed up, he cancelled it without asking me. Second time, two people signed up and it was cancelled. This is what I was told by him. Yet the other woman's class always goes with few people. This has evolved into now open regular women's class, with Christian music. She gets new people but goes down to one by the end of Com. Ed. program time and none continuing.

He now says it was because she could evangelize the gospel better. I am a Christian but leave it out of class or even after class. Also in the last year he asked another red belt to teach right in front of me without even considering that I was there. (I had no teaching position then) Even his wife trys to cajole the red belt into teaching. But that woman is also my friend and sees what is going on and tells him no and said he showed disrespect toward me. No, my friend does not evangelize either.

After a "talk" last August, he finally agreed to let me teach. I taught a non-existent class on Thurs. Most I have had is three students. A mother and her 5 year old son and a 25 yr. old. So I now keep the "class" for the 25 yr. old. I also am leading/teaching kickboxing at noon-2xweek-mixed 3-4 people. My knees aren't doing great for this but still them give a good workout.

So, I offer lately, to advertise both classes at my cost and deduct it from new women signups. He doesn't even answer my request-been a week.

I've been reading this thread. While I realize this is his school. And some you know my master and I have other issues. But also am trying to lay those at rest. I finally got my 2nd dan belt. But if I want to stay in TKD, I need to teach, and my strength lies with teaching and leading women.
But don't know how I can make that happen. And at 55, can't see opening a school and competing with him just to teach--not possible anyway, with a non-compete clause.

So I think this is where Christian values and Martial Arts values and etiquette conflict. It, IMO, should really be the same. TW

[Gray Phoenix]

Martial Arts is very religious for some, but not for others. I have noticed that those who incorporate religion into their MA practice harder and longer, and tend to become better in their physical skills.

I consider myself to be a Christian. Which in itself means nothing. Its not the church and its doctrines that makes you a Christian, it is the person their individual belfief in Christian ideals. "no greater love has man, than he give up his life for another. Not for glory, not for rememberance, not for a friend or a lover; but for a stranger, alone, in the dark, where none shall ever know". This is where Martial Arts fits in my life and my beliefs. I pray I never have to employ my ever expanding array of skills, and I will always "turn the other cheek", but only so many times. The Kenpo Creed, set forth by Ed Parker, I believe is one of the most Christian things I have ever read outside of the Bible.:asian:

Martial Arts is a skill set that helps one attain something great than themselves. There are may such paths... This is mine.:asian:

[Gray Phoenix]

I left that first line a little open ended in hopes of furthering a great discussion.:-partyon:

[The Kai]

Martial Arts is very religious for some, but not for others. I have noticed that those who incorporate religion into their MA practice harder and longer, and tend to become better in their physical skills.

I .:asian:
I've never noticed this that the incorporation of religion enhances training ability, of course i assume we are not talking some "pagean" religion?

[The Kai]

My instructor/owner wants a Christian school. High rank are all Christian. Nobody makes it to blackbelt without being Christian. He has been overheard (by a Jewish friend) talking to parents that he wants all of his blackbelt instructors to be Christian. We don't do prayer before class but I can see it coming. He does put on Christian music and teaches about the bible in class.

. TW
How can you stand it!!! What did you come in for??
Todd

[The Kai]

Don't you think that its only responsible for a martial arts instructor to not only teach how to do a technique, but why?

I think that for many people, religion can be a great tool to inform the "why" part of the equation. THAT in my opinion, is what a Christian Martial Art is really trying to accomplish.
The why of what/ being in shape, defending yourself, continuing the art? The why that works for you might have zero relavance for me. Or do you mean why hit someone? If they come to you that immoral, teaching them ain't as great idea

[TigerWoman]

I don't think the moral values or Christianity teach you the "why" of striking someone or defending yourself. Martial tenets teach you to use the weapon your body has become with propriety. Be courteous, integrity-honest, have self-control, humility. Christian values-treat your neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek-get beat up, if you carry being a Christian to an extreme. But I don't see anybody in my school doing that-putting others before themselves!

The Kai: How I stand coming in to class? Take the good and let the rest go out the other ear. But knees are failing so I have to seek my own workout if there is jumping and there usually is jumping. Besides I have alot of friends who are black belts about the same as me Christian -wise. I would rather come in once a week to stay in the loop, teach women's classes, and do/lead kickboxing classes to stay fit.

Our instructor just announced that if he doesn't come to class (doesn't even call) that he is doing his primary work--prostelytizing. Sigh! He would rather be preaching. Muslim turned Christian. One fanatic to another. TKD is just an economic necessity and a way to do his "primary" job. I do know he lays it on thick to new people and they either convert or leave. If I had women's class, I do believe I could get more to stay (and be their guardian angel) TW

[Makalakumu]

The why of what/being in shape, defending yourself, continuing the art? The why that works for you might have zero relavance for me. Or do you mean why hit someone? If they come to you that immoral, teaching them ain't as great idea

Appropriate use of power is something that, in my opinion, a martial arts instructor should teach. The knowledge that we have gives us a certain amount of power and like any power, it is easy to abuse unless one has been taught the proper discipline. For some, this moral aspect of "do" is informed by Christianity. For others, moral inspiration lies elsewhere.

I think that it is a mistake to assume that all of your students are moral people. Children, especially, can be prone to abuse of power...and so can adults for that matter. The worst thing that I could do as an instructor is indiscriminately teach only technique to anybody who walked in off the street. For instance, I could give a person 30 minutes of knife training and they could become dangerous...

My conscience couldn't abide with that. I beleive that separating the technique from the way is a short path to tragedy.

upnorthkyosa

[Makalakumu]

I don't think the moral values or Christianity teach you the "why" of striking someone or defending yourself. Martial tenets teach you to use the weapon your body has become with propriety. Be courteous, integrity-honest, have self-control, humility.

Growing up with a staunch German Catholic tradition (as a child in Stearns County, mass was given in German at my church) the values in boldface were well represented with Biblical teachings.


Christian values-treat your neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek-get beat up, if you carry being a Christian to an extreme. But I don't see anybody in my school doing that-putting others before themselves!

Treating your neighbors as you would yourself is what happens when two people bow to each other in the dojang. Even when the other is higher ranked. In Christianity, All are the same and the mutual bowing dovetails nicely into the Golden Rule.

As far as turning the other cheek, this can be interpreted as knowing when to walk away. Coupled with a few passages in the old testament regarding self protection, this can be a mightly lesson indeed.

The Turn the Other Cheek lesson is one of the lessons my friend taught in his dojang when I visited. I can't remember the Bible passages and I can't find them. Do any Christians out there know what I'm talking about?

upnorthkyosa

[The Kai]

Appropriate use of power is something that, in my opinion, a martial arts instructor should teach. The knowledge that we have gives us a certain amount of power and like any power, it is easy to abuse unless one has been taught the proper discipline. For some, this moral aspect of "do" is informed by Christianity. For others, moral inspiration lies elsewhere.

I think that it is a mistake to assume that all of your students are moral people. Children, especially, can be prone to abuse of power...and so can adults for that matter. The worst thing that I could do as an instructor is indiscriminately teach only technique to anybody who walked in off the street. For instance, I could give a person 30 minutes of knife training and they could become dangerous...

My conscience couldn't abide with that. I beleive that separating the technique from the way is a short path to tragedy.

upnorthkyosa
If you think that a few minutes of mediatation, prayer or reciting of the tenets constitutes moral training I got news for you.... Children will always abuse thier power (look at a playground some day). The primaryoral decision is in your hands, when the person walks in from the streets check them out, see if they have a record and see how they interact with the class body. To think that you can take a ammoral, immoral person force your ideas of morality down thier throat and have them stick is a tad simplistic. You as a teacher of the technique is always the guardian of the way.
I know it was an example, but why would you give a stranger 30 minutes of knife training? What happened to screening your students?
Todd

[Adept]

I agree with The Kai here. By the time someone is a student of Martial Arts, their ideas on morality, right and wrong, and the justified use of force are already going to be well in place. Only young children are open to this kind of moral molding, and arguably it is the job of the parents and not the instructor to teach these people morality.

What a martial art can teach that is not already learned is usually things like self-respect, discipline, and confidence.

[TigerWoman]

I agree with The Kai here. By the time someone is a student of Martial Arts, their ideas on morality, right and wrong, and the justified use of force are already going to be well in place. Only young children are open to this kind of moral molding, and arguably it is the job of the parents and not the instructor to teach these people morality.

What a martial art can teach that is not already learned is usually things like self-respect, discipline, and confidence.

I agree. Martial arts really just reinforces the values mostly that the parents have instilled since a very early age.

We had one teen who was always arguing and disrespectful to his mother. He got into fights somehow always instigated by others and would come to class, black eye, bruised and casted. He was also disruptive-talking and a showoff in class which seemed to be encouraged by the master. Then his parents went through a divorce. He was passed to 1st dan anyway to my amazement. Great at technique, low at stamina, and moral values. He did go to church but did not socialize well with other teens-too self-centered according to my son who had tried to be his friend. He dropped out of TKD and got worse toward his mother and left home to live with his father for more "freedom". I wasn't surprised. TW

[TigerWoman]

Treating your neighbors as you would yourself is what happens when two people bow to each other in the dojang. Even when the other is higher ranked. In Christianity, All are the same and the mutual bowing dovetails nicely into the Golden Rule.

As far as turning the other cheek, this can be interpreted as knowing when to walk away. Coupled with a few passages in the old testament regarding self protection, this can be a mightly lesson indeed.
upnorthkyosa

Regarding love for enemies:
Luke 6:29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also.

It is easy to bow to show treating the neighbor as yourself. It is not always easy for most for the harder tests of life. Like giving away the board that could help you pass a test easier but give it to someone else. Doing the right thing. Selflessness.
That's the thing about the bible, it can be interpreted in many ways. TW

[Makalakumu]

If you think that a few minutes of mediatation, prayer or reciting of the tenets constitutes moral training I got news for you....Children will always abuse thier power (look at a playground some day).

No, not always, and not even often. Adults are more likely to really abuse the power I have to teach. I am far more wary of adults then I am of children.


The primaryoral decision is in your hands, when the person walks in from the streets check them out, see if they have a record and see how they interact with the class body. To think that you can take a ammoral, immoral person force your ideas of morality down thier throat and have them stick is a tad simplistic.

In my experience, it has been very powerful, whether it is done with a Christian focus or with more "traditional" methods. My dojang serves a lot of poorer/inner city kids and Martial Arts changes their lives! I have students with criminal records and students who have been on probation...they are some of my most dedicated practicioners. They use what they learn to turn their lives around. The morals/values that MA has to teach are important and many of them also happen to be Christian moral/values.

Nobody is forcing anything down anyones throat. My students and anyone elses students freely choose where they want to go and train. If they don't like what I've got to say, or maybe what a Christian might have to say, then they can leave. I have had many students leave. Many. They want something for the street. Something for the rumble. I could help them with that, but the "why" attached to the techniques creates too big of a burden.

"Duty is a mountain and Death is a feather"

Think about that...


You as a teacher of the technique is always the guardian of the way. I know it was an example, but why would you give a stranger 30 minutes of knife training? What happened to screening your students?

You bet I screen my students. I have constructed my class so the learning curve is intentionally slow at first. I want to teach my students how to be a student and how to follow the way (do) first. That way the weeding out is natural.

Also, in the time that it takes for a student to really learn something powerful, I am able to get a measure of who they are as a person. I had to put one of my higher ranks students on the spot once. It was not fun. I told him to either shape up or leave. He met my standards and continues to train with a totally new attitude.

[Sin]

In some cases it is good to keep seperate what goes on in our personal lives from the Dojo....and also being in martial arts dose not make you a sub human to your Sensei. Its true to be humble but yet....you should not allow yourself to be Brain washed into beliveing something you do not want to.

Keep respect!

[47MartialMan]

I am doing a written thesis/article of this at the very moment. This has two opposing camps. I have many interviews to complete. Very interesting stuff.