NHB fighter dies in Dayton Ohio

[sifu Adams]

Soon as I find the artical I will pass it on. but as I watched the news today they talked about NHB fighter died last night after fighting three rounds. they said he took a blow to the head and never recovered. They said after three rounds of fighting and being hit several times in the head his body shut down. Now my question. what do martial arts think about NHB fighting. I don't like it. I think it dose not represent the martial arts at all. I can fight for hours and control every punch and every kick, I know my distance and how far to go in with my opponit. I think these guys lack control and disipline that the martial arts holds and values. I also think that if "we" (martial arts) don't start joining to gether we are in for some tuff times ahead. I think people think NHB fighting is Martial arts and stories like this will lead to goverments sactioning our tournaments. My thoughts. whats yours?

[still learning]

Hello, NHB is a place to prove yourself in your fighting skills, people will die if you get hit in the right place and often. It was his choice to fight? I am sure he knew the risk. Boxing also have many deaths from fighting in the ring. It is the nature of the sport that deaths will occur. It is sad when someone dies.

Money is a powerful force, the risk is always there. Is there another way to do this without getting hurt? ....and this is only for entertainment too?.....Aloha

[Fight with attitude]

WOW...when did these happen? There has only been one other death in NHB fighting. This is very shocking.

[Shidan]

Even being able to control a punch or kick isn't always a guarantee that the opponent will be safe. Strange things happen!

It is unfortunate someone died, but it is always a possibility and it is a risk anyone who participates in any contact activity faces. Even baseball can be 'dangerous'. Doesn't mean people shouldn't do it, it is just something that could happen.

My friends dad was killed just last month when he truck spun out on some ice and he rolled his truck. He was pinned inside and couldn't get out. A witness tried to help but couldn't free him and he died. Very sad, but life happens :(

[Vadim]

I have not heard of this. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family. Does anyone have any further information on this?


-Vadim

[Bill Tai]

Er, um, still waiting on the article for confirmation.

Googling for it, but I'll give my $0.02 in the meantime.

Not taking anything away from those who train and make a living on the MMA/NHB circuit, I have to say that so-called NHB fighting is a sport that happens to utilize a particular fraction of what is ideally considered a training excercise (sparing or randori) and re-packaging it for mass consumption and "bloodsport" entertainment.

MMA/NHB doesn't "prove" your mastery of "fighting skills," so much as it is a good gauge of how well you perform under certain set of predetermined conditions. It's you and a single opponent in an enclosed space mutually agreeing upon a set of rules on how you will conduct your particular contest. That being said, some of these guys are pretty damn good at what they do.

Sometimes, you get absolutely beautiful execution of technique (striking combos, grappling, submissions, etc.) that demonstrates a mastery of said technique in a one-on-one situation in a relatively safe environment. Sometimes, you get a couple of dudes flailing at each other until one dude gets tired, drops his guard, and the other dude lands a lucky haymaker.

But in the end, it's a sport, subject to the same risks and rules of all sports. It's a damn shame, but people will get damaged and some might get killed under the wrong set of circumstances.

Me, after spending a greater part of the last decade doing ground-n'-pound and skull-and-knuckle (mostly for the fun of it-- hey, I was young and thought I was indestructable) and being fully aware of its sporty nature, I've got a pair of blown knees, and effed-up-ankle, about 50% hearing loss in my left ear, a couple of surgeries and a bevy of nagging little problems that keeps my doctors in their Porsches and my medical insurance premiums at an uncomfortably high rate.

My condolences to the parties involved if this turns out to be true.

[MJS]

Some very good replies here!! If you find that article, please post.

As for my thoughts...Even in the first few events, which were billed as having 'no rules' in fact there were rules, but compared to what there is today, its a big difference. There was a short time when the NHB matches were banned from PPV. They were brought back due to the increased rules, sanctioning from althletic comm. etc. While they are not on the same level as a street fight, they bring the feeling slightly closer seeing that there is more that can be done compared to your point sparring events.

As for the control factor. Keep in mind as I said above that point and NHB are 2 very different animals. The goal of point is just that...to score a point. The goal of NHB is to get that KO, TKO, or submission. Look at boxing. Yes, there is a "point system" so to speak, but 9 times out of 10, those guys are looking for the KO!!!!

Personally, I dont think that you have anything to worry about as far as the govt. sanctioning your tournaments, due to the fact that 1) we are talking about 2 very different fighting events, and 2) there are already more rules in point sparring than you'll ever see in NHB, that will protect the fighters.

Mike

[Phil Elmore]

Sportfighting, Pro and Con (http://www.themartialist.com/0404/pointcounterpoint.htm)

[OUMoose]

We were talking about this a little at training last night. A tragic loss, and from what I've heard, his opponent is also done for good with NHB fighting. I can't say I blame him. Realistically speaking, the stuff everyone here does, be it Kempo, Kali, CMA's, Muay Thai, etc, IS dangerous even in training. You can train all your life, be as tough as nails, and it's all over if you catch an impact, or turn "just right". Just something to think about.

A tragic day. :(

[Feisty Mouse]

One of my instructors was talking about boxing several decades ago, versus boxing today. He was comparing bare-knuckles with gloved, and saying how previously, boxers suffered things like kidney and liver problems, failure or whatever of internal organs. These days, because the hands are protected, there are far more blows to the head, leading to the increase in brain damage, and all the attendant problems that go with it.

It sounds like another very sad example of this type of injury.

And Shidan, I am sorry to hear of your friend's loss as well.

[Cthulhu]

One of my instructors was talking about boxing several decades ago, versus boxing today. He was comparing bare-knuckles with gloved, and saying how previously, boxers suffered things like kidney and liver problems, failure or whatever of internal organs. These days, because the hands are protected, there are far more blows to the head, leading to the increase in brain damage, and all the attendant problems that go with it.

It sounds like another very sad example of this type of injury.

And Shidan, I am sorry to hear of your friend's loss as well.
Odd...just saw an episode of the History Channel's 'Wild West Tech' last night that stated pretty much the same thing: boxing became more dangerous when gloves were introduced. Their reasoning was that the gloves allowed for easier wide hooking punches to the temples, causing brain damage. Bareknuckled, people tended not to use those punches to alleviate the risk of breaking the hand.

Cthulhu

[sifu Adams]

I found the news reports. Its from channel 2 news in dayton ohio



Former Toughman Issues a Warning to Fighters
http://www.wdtn.com/images/emailstory.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:eMail_Friend(540,540);)

Updated 2/2/2005 at 9:43:04

A former Toughman warns future fighters to stay out of the ring. It comes just days after a competitor dies. Steve Schaaf won the Toughman Title six times.



Now, Schaaf is concerned about the safety of the fighters, especially after witnessing Saturday's fight.



He watched Steven Burress take the blows that eventually killed him.



Schaaf said, "There was something wrong from the get go. Within just a few seconds of the fight you could see it, the guy was clumsy, he was out of the balance the whole fight."



A Toughman doctor sent Burress to the hospital where he died from a blood clot on the brain.



The Montgomery County Coroner officially ruled the 27-year old's death an accident.



The possibility that that kind of injury can happen is the reason at least 14 other states have banned The Toughman Competition.



In recent years, Ohio lawmakers legalized it to regulate it.



Toughman officials wouldn't talk to 2News on camera.



But, it appears that more fights are planned.



According to The Toughman Website, competitors will take to the ring this Saturday in Canton.

[Tgace]

it was only a matter of time.

[Fight with attitude]

Ok, so this was a tough man fight not a NHB fight because there is a differents.

[Tgace]

Its a matter of time there too...pay your money take your chances.

[Turbo]

That sounds like a inexperienced ref...

Schaaf said, "There was something wrong from the get go. Within just a few seconds of the fight you could see it, the guy was clumsy, he was out of the balance the whole fight."

What the HELL the Whole Fight?

Dont KNOCK MMA this is a cheapass tough man contest! These things usually dont have anyone working with any real experience which if you ask me is insane but people do it anyway.

[MJS]

Schaaf said, "There was something wrong from the get go. Within just a few seconds of the fight you could see it, the guy was clumsy, he was out of the balance the whole fight."



A Toughman doctor sent Burress to the hospital where he died from a blood clot on the brain.

I think that it would be interesting to know the fighters medical history. Its very possible that he could have had a pre-existing history that went undetected.

Like anything, until the entire story is told, we can only go on the little that we do know.

Mike

[clapping_tiger]

First off, NHB fighting is more safe than boxing. In NHB fights once you are knocked senseless the fight is over. In boxing you get up and continue if you reach the 8 count and somewhat have your senses back. However you are still hurt and dazed. The statistic earlier posted about only 1 death in NHB competition is true, and to add to that the guy had a pre-existing condition, he shouldn't even have been fighting. It sounds like this was the case in this fight too. A prime example of this is compare "the Next Great Champ" series with "The Ultimate Fighter". If you were knocked a good one in NGC you were allowed to get up and if you could answer you could go on, in TUF the guy was knocked down and Big John shoved the guy out of the way and the fight was called off.

True that gloves add to how dangerous the sport is, because the gloves are meant to protect your hands, not the object being struck. The penetration and force of the blow is what causes the most damage, not the knuckles. The public sees gloves as protection for the person being hit, and it kind of bothers me that it is seen that way. Fact is that people see blood from a cut and think that is the damage, the brain is in fact what is really being pounded. Having gloves on allows you to hit harder, and more often because it does not cause as much pain, and cushions the bones a little bit making it harder to break them. As a matter of fact there are more KO's now in the UFC and Pride then when gloves were optional. What does that tell you?

Unfortunately if this hits the main media, it will be a step back for NHB fights. There are many people who die each year around the world from boxing, and Muai Thai fights, but boxing is excepted here, and in Thailand Muai Thai is a way of life. It is kind of funny how we hardly ever hear of it happening unless it is a big name fighter who dies.

The referee would be the primary one responsible for letting it go on that long, but the manager/trainer and the fighter themselves are most at blame if he had a condition that they knew of and let him fight.

That's my 2 cents.

[clapping_tiger]

Oops, did catch that this was a tough man competition. Most of these not only have inexperienced ref's, but the corner men and usually volunteers who maybe have some boxing or martial arts experience. I have been to some of these, and although they can be entertaining to watch, some of the people stepping in the ring should not be doing it. I have seen some guys get pounded to a pulp. There was one guy I saw in the heavyweight division, who was trained professionally, and was fighting in the toughman circuit before turning pro (I talked to him after the competition because he looked too good if you know what I mean, I wanted to find out his background). I think he told me this was his 4th toughman tournament win, out of 4 entries. I think if I remember right you can win 4 or 5 before you can't enter anymore. He really hurt some of these guys bad. Real bad. Some of the toughman fighters are just egotistical barroom brawlers who beat some people up. Then think they can take on the world. The trained fighters eat these guys for lunch every time.

[SammyB57]

Will people ever learn? NHB is a lot safer than boxing. Also, you'll never really learn to take or give a punch if you never take or give one. Point karate and full-contact fighting are just two different worlds.

Martial Arts were made for combat. They used to be BuJutsu. Now they are Budo. Just because someone's training is centered around learning real combat skills doesn't mean it is a second-rate martial art or anything like that.

And no, the government will never sanction point karate because.... it's not real fighting. It may develop fighting skills, but in the end, it's not full-contact fighting.

NHB may not be street-fighting, but it is full-contact fighting. It too develops fighting skills like point karate, but it is much more efficient.

Because large gloves are not worn, and bouts are shorter than boxing, the brain trauma is significantly less.

[SammyB57]

Hello, NHB is a place to prove yourself in your fighting skills, people will die if you get hit in the right place and often.
I've never seen someone die from getting hit in an NHB match. Usually they get knocked out, then it's over.

Another benefit of NHB over boxing is the lack of a standing 8 count or a 10 count. The first time you go down and can't mount a defense, the match is over. In boxing, you may go down many more times, but come back for more "punishment."

In point karate, I really doubt there are many knockouts. And if there are, well.... there just shouldn't be. It's not full-contact, and if you can't take a semi-contact kick.... jebus.

[Kenpodoc]

According to our local paper this was a TOUGHMAN COMPETITION not NHB. The ref's need better training in TMC. I've heard of several other toughman deaths. It turns out that it is bad for your brain to be struck repeatedly. It's worse if you have inadequate training, poor evasion skills, fewer partially slipped punches and weaker neck muscles to allow your head to snaparound faster with quicker acceleration and decelleration.
Jeff

[SammyB57]

Oops, clapping tiger has already spanked the correct.

With all this information out there and readily available, how come MMA is still yet bombarded by misinformation?

[clapping_tiger]

According to our local paper this was a TOUGHMAN COMPETITION not NHB. The ref's need better training in TMC. I've heard of several other toughman deaths. It turns out that it is bad for your brain to be struck repeatedly. It's worse if you have inadequate training, poor evasion skills, fewer partially slipped punches and weaker neck muscles to allow your head to snaparound faster with quicker acceleration and decelleration.
Jeff

My fault for hitting the "post" button before I read through the thread. NHB or better yet MMA (since it really is not No Holds Barred) is one of my favorite sporting events and I am usually too quick to come to it's defense. I would just hate to see it get banned or something over misinformation. Still, you are right about the TMC, ref's need better training, as do the corner men they provide. The ones I have seen, the competition provides the corner men and you cannot have your own. Good Post.

[clapping_tiger]

With all this information out there and readily available, how come MMA is still yet bombarded by misinformation?
My theory; MMA is viewed on PPV(you don't get a wide audience this way), the general public's opinion is still based on what they saw, or read about in the early day's of the UFC. Back when they billed the fights as Brutal, bloody, and as real as it gets. This has kept some away and most never to come back. I am hoping that the reality show the Ultimate Fighter helps bring more fans into the sport.

[Kempojujutsu]

Toughman Competitions, let contests in the ring after drinking alcohol. They also allow mis-matches of fighters. Wasn't last year in Tampa, that they allowed a women in her 40's to fight a girl that had several fights under belt. The one lady was out of shape and ended up dying inthe ring. I believe she had couple of young childern, that seen her die. Toughman doesn't give a crap about the fighters. Just how much money they can make. NHB is much safer then boxing and Toughman contest. Still someone could get seriously hurt in NHB fighting. But that is the chances you take. You could get hurt playing football to.

[Bod]

I think the view that traditional martial arts have relevance because they were forged in the days when fights were to the death, cannot be held at the same time as the view that deaths in NHB or similar matches are pointless and brutal.

If danger forges the art then the attitude of sports fighters who go into a ring resolote against death is a martial attitude. It is not mystical but a real resoluteness. It should be commended.

The skills I learned in traditional Kung Fu really began to have meaning once I began sports arts - Judo and Boxing. I risk injury and have suffered injury. This has sharpened my perception and deepened my understanding of core traditional principles.

Risk of death - although it should be reduced where reasonable - should not be decried in the martial arts or any other endevour which builds the spirit. I'd rather die after 5 years of a full life, than live my next 50 years in front of the TV.

[Kenpodoc]

I think the view that traditional martial arts have relevance because they were forged in the days when fights were to the death, cannot be held at the same time as the view that deaths in NHB or similar matches are pointless and brutal.

If danger forges the art then the attitude of sports fighters who go into a ring resolote against death is a martial attitude. It is not mystical but a real resoluteness. It should be commended.

The skills I learned in traditional Kung Fu really began to have meaning once I began sports arts - Judo and Boxing. I risk injury and have suffered injury. This has sharpened my perception and deepened my understanding of core traditional principles.

Risk of death - although it should be reduced where reasonable - should not be decried in the martial arts or any other endevour which builds the spirit. I'd rather die after 5 years of a full life, than live my next 50 years in front of the TV.
Going drunk into a poorly refereed match has nothing to do with living a full life. It's just a way to make some minor wiseguy some more cash. Testing yourself in a NHB fight is admirable but the risk of death should be near zero with a good referree and a reliable corner. People are hard to kill so these reported deaths usually involve continued trauma long after the loser has clearly lost. High risk of death should be decried because the participants can successfully test each other in much safer situations. The key to a full life is calculated risks.

I have several patients who I care for living prolonged lives after severe injuries suffered in reckless youth. (Quadraplegia, Paraplegia, Hemiparesis after head injury, organic Dementia after brain injury.) None of them look back on their reckless choices and say if given a chance that they would change nothing. Live a full life, take calculated risks, play hard but it is inexcusable for promoters to make money while failing to protect their fighters.

Jeff

[Em MacIntosh]

How about some of the K-1 wailings? They seem often poorly matched and poorly reffed. Crazy fighters, some of them.

[JBrainard]

I've never heard of a death in K-1. In Muay Thai, on the other hand, there have been a few deaths (and I'm talking about after they adopted using boxing gloves).

[redfang]

tough man competitions are between unskilled, untrained bruisers. It is distinctly different from mma or nhb. There is no comparison between the two. There have been a number of toughman deaths over the years. basically any barroom brawler who thinks he's bad can show up on fight night and sign up to fight. Again, this is not nhb.

[Marginal]

Soon as I find the artical I will pass it on. but as I watched the news today they talked about NHB fighter died last night after fighting three rounds. they said he took a blow to the head and never recovered. They said after three rounds of fighting and being hit several times in the head his body shut down. Now my question. what do martial arts think about NHB fighting. I don't like it. I think it dose not represent the martial arts at all. I can fight for hours and control every punch and every kick, I know my distance and how far to go in with my opponit. I think these guys lack control and disipline that the martial arts holds and values. I also think that if "we" (martial arts) don't start joining to gether we are in for some tuff times ahead. I think people think NHB fighting is Martial arts and stories like this will lead to goverments sactioning our tournaments. My thoughts. whats yours?

There's always going to be an amount of risk once you start throwing punches etc at someone while they're also going all out. I think that it's no more shocking than boxing or any other contact sport.

Heck, there's even that potential in a light contact sparring situation. The likelyhood's lower, but the potential's still there.