Basics

[Rainman]

For the AKer's- what tools are you using to ensure that your basics are being done to achieve the best results?


:asian:

[brianhunter]

practice, practice, practice. And about 20 people yelling your doing it wrong/right! ;)~

[Rainman]

Good start... That is known as the 3rd person perspective or the third point of view.

:asian:

[AvPKenpo]

For myself, I repeat the basic many many times(hundreds-thousands whatever it takes) at an embrionic stage. After I feel comfortable with it, I start taking it to the next level, speeding it up with out breaking it down completely more of a mechanical or robotic state. Then once it has set in I can take it to the final level that being spontanious. Once I have achieved this level I then try to examine myself as closely as I can, by using mirrors or video to fine tune the basic. Often I see in myself I need to revert back to the mechanical stage to achieve precise movement in the basic.

Michael

[Rainman]

The 3rd person perspective is a concept- how about some Universal Laws and prinicples. Speed doesn't need to be saught it comes with economical movements and relaxation. Once the mechanical stage is left behind don't revisit it. Repitition is an ally but don't forget to use the tools that make AK practical, logical, and cognitive. Adding these ingrediants make it fun and it is fun to experience ease of movement and power no?



:asian:

[Roland]

..but how do you actually teach them, to make them effective?
How do vary them so they fit different situations and different people?
I agree with what has been said so far, but if you have someone doing the same punch over and over, they may, or may not get it down, then, they may or may not be doing it correctly, and they still may or may not know where or when to use it. Not slamming here, but I think we need to expand this a little more.
A man once said "Practice makes pernament, not perfect"!

:soapbox:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Roland

..but how do you actually teach them, to make them effective?
How do vary them so they fit different situations and different people?
I agree with what has been said so far, but if you have someone doing the same punch over and over, they may, or may not get it down, then, they may or may not be doing it correctly, and they still may or may not know where or when to use it. Not slamming here, but I think we need to expand this a little more.
A man once said "Practice makes pernament, not perfect"!

:soapbox:

Perfect practice makes perfect. So you are asking how to make perfect? You must give to get, give me one of the ideas you have to acheive this.
:shrug:

[Nightingale]

where and when to use a punch is an instructor issue: they should tell you/show you this.

how to do a punch correctly? what I've found to be effective is teach them proper technique, and once they've got it down and it really looks right, have them hit something, a focus bag, or a heavy bag. The body will make subtle adjustments to make the technique work. you can't really know if something is going to work til you try it.

[Rainman]

where and when to use a punch is an instructor issue: they should tell you/show you this

No. You can be coached into this but not shown or told unless a lot of time is spent in freestyle, etc and even then it will not be as fast if you were coached through the basics of this.


how to do a punch correctly? what I've found to be effective is teach them proper technique, and once they've got it down and it really looks right, have them hit something, a focus bag, or a heavy bag. The body will make subtle adjustments to make the technique work. you can't really know if something is going to work til you try it.

How do you get to proper technique... and what is "proper technique"?

[Seig]

One of the things I do with my people, and something I do myself, is taht when I have learned or am practicing a technique and feel that I have the transitions and flow down, I do the technique repeatedly in a fluid manner, almost Tai Chi like (No, I have not studied Tai Chi and am making a generalization, no offense meant if I am wrong). By doing any given technique this way, I am letting the muscles "retain and remember". It also removes the jerkiness form a technique as I do it faster and allows me to concentrate on my targets and distance.
:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

If your talking about basics being each individual movement executed from a horse stance? Your training stance is just that training. What we do in our class is pick one basic group each class let's say finger techniques. Pick an actual technique that may already have some finger movement in it and use it in application. Next figure out which ones aren't in a technique then go back to figure out what techniques can use an inserted finger technique. As I say inserted as long as it doesn't disrupt the flow of the technique then it is a good inserted move. I guess to easier sum it up take the basics then use it in application.
Jason Farnsworth

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Seig

One of the things I do with my people, and something I do myself, is taht when I have learned or am practicing a technique and feel that I have the transitions and flow down, I do the technique repeatedly in a fluid manner, almost Tai Chi like (No, I have not studied Tai Chi and am making a generalization, no offense meant if I am wrong). By doing any given technique this way, I am letting the muscles "retain and remember". It also removes the jerkiness form a technique as I do it faster and allows me to concentrate on my targets and distance.
:asian:

That is one of my best tools... relaxation. One thing you may want to consider is becoming heavy (exhale) for rooting and lighter (inhale) for moving. IF you have not done this already be patient, it takes other elements for this to manefest itself fully. Don't be afraid to read a tai chi book it may provide some ideas for you. The trick is finding where they already exist is the system.

:asian:



If your talking about basics being each individual
movement executed from a horse stance?

That is a form of isolation. Tell me this: is your teacher helping to make adjustmests as you go through these basics?

How about standing in a nuetral bow, guard up and delivering a thrusting reverse punch utilizing torque, momentum and gravatational marriage by pivoting into a forward bow at contact. Load this basic down with the tools of our trade.

:asian:

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Rainman

Once the mechanical stage is left behind don't revisit it. Repitition is an ally but don't forget to use the tools that make AK practical, logical, and cognitive. Adding these ingrediants make it fun and it is fun to experience ease of movement and power no?



:asian:

For myself I want to perfect my movement, so a lot of times I go back to basics (and techniques) and break them down again. This also helps when you teach. One thing that I try to remember when I teach I need to be able to teach & communicate the same thing several different ways. I.E. one student may not understand that the glass is half empty but they do understand that the glass is half full......poor example granted, but maybe this will help to bring the point across. I guess my reasoning is to make darn sure I am teaching it right, and if I cannot teach the basic correcty I must not know it well enough....LOL.

Michael

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Roland

..but how do you actually teach them, to make them effective?
How do vary them so they fit different situations and different people?
I agree with what has been said so far, but if you have someone doing the same punch over and over, they may, or may not get it down, then, they may or may not be doing it correctly, and they still may or may not know where or when to use it. Not slamming here, but I think we need to expand this a little more.
A man once said "Practice makes pernament, not perfect"!

:soapbox:

LOL.....I agree.........unfortunately each student is different..as an instructor I feel we need to be aware of how each student learns. One student learns best by example, another by explanation, another by trial and error, another by stepping them through it repeatedly, and yet another by drawing it out on a marker board, and some by threatening them.........JK. The instructor has to be able to teach several different ways. Maybe I am wrong........I still try though. LOL

Michael

[Rainman]

One student learns best by example, another by explanation, another by trial and error, another by stepping them through it repeatedly, and yet another by drawing it out on a marker board, and some by threatening them.........JK

These are stages in the learning process. Each time something new is learned a simular process takes place using all these steps aided by CTP.


For myself I want to perfect my movement, so a lot of times I go back to basics (and techniques) and break them down again.

Refinement is about using tools and they are concepts, theories, and principles. The Lowest Common Denominator of AK are the basics. Re-read the first post.

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

Rainman,
First your going to have to excuse me on some things I'm kind of slow at figuring out some of the things your talking about. I'm not quite sure I understand what your talking about as far as making adjustments in our training. My first initial thought was talking about points of reference during the embryonic stage of training. When in a horse stance picture the targets your planning to strike. My next thought was actually making adjustments from doing basics from a training stance then using it for application purpose. Anyways that's how I took your question. Yes we do the particular movements for application different obviously nothing is perfect, what works for you may not work for me or someone else for that matter.
Onto your next question. The horse is just a stance as well as the bows, or kneels. Our instructor has us do the basics from the neutral or forward bow stance as well. It all has a different feel when standing in different postures. I personally like the kneel stances. I pretty much try to use those stances as much as possible. There's my thoughts.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

[Rainman]

Jason,

You've always shown a positive attitude and I would have no problem explaining the same thing to you 20 times 20 different ways.

For Ak'ers the principles will eventually define your movements and what you can do with them. To load a basic will CPT will aid in refinement. Without looking in any books take the reverse punch I described earlier and load it down with the cpt's that you know of. It is an exercise worth your time... I will add to what you already know.

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Flow first & power later regarding basics. It is so hard for a student to "unlearn" something taught at an earlier level, especially when they have a little proficiency in another system. It is nice to slow it down and focus on detail. Then maybe some isometric power slow drills, utilizing training, neutral, and transitional stances. I am focusing primarily on first and second person perspectives using mirrors and direct verbal or physical correction.

Methods of execution vary, for an outward handsword we may explore a snapping vs thrusting, or ricocheting vs slicing, in the air, then against a bag. Then as soon as possible we add the use of three dimensions to generate greater power - rotating or counter-rotation, body momentum with a shuffle, and gravitational marriage with all the strikes.

Then slow it down again for precision, accuracy, and pinpointing, utilizing the correct weapon to the correct target - as you bring the speed back up again. Back to the bags or a partner with a focus mitt or kicking shield (I also use Muey Thai forarm sheilds), then to a partner actually attacking, slow and flow, then fast with power AND CONTROL.

This all seems pretty BASIC to me. Was this what you were looking for? Pretty punny, huh???

SOPHISTICATED BASICS have to start somewhere. My methodology remains fairly consistant. We may work rice lines across the room, circuit training on bags working a basic, then translate them into the technique I am teaching, or pull a basic I see problems with on tests, out of the technique. Work on it out of context, then put it back in context to see if there is any improvement. Strong basics are the heart of the system. Without them we would be a "slap art", heaven forbid. No matter how fast we go, isn't it better to hit with power on our primary strikes and be a little slower - than to strike blindingly fast with no effect or off target? Hopefully somewhere the two can come together in a synergistic strike that is more powerful than the sum of it's parts.

Michael B.,
UKS-Texas

[Rainman]

Works for me. I will note one exception and that would be that the heart of the art is CPT. You can only get so far without adding these elements. You yourself stated that being the primary difference between Tracy and EPAK.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

What does CPT stand for?


:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

It's concept's, principles, & theories. I think.
Jason Farnsworth:)

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Klondike93

What does CPT stand for?


:asian:

I was wondering that myself, but was afraid to ask in case it was something I should know and would feel really stupid for not knowing...

[Rainman]

concepts, theories, principles = ctp, tcp, cpt... ;)

[Rob_Broad]

I believe repitition is the key to good basics, and then studying them form different perspectives. The key to basics is finding a way to relate it to what the person already knows, then you have an easier time getting them across correctly.

[Roland]

LOL, but, I think everyone is getting on the right track now.
I did not mean earlier that everyone should give up their 'training secrets' or anything, just that i did not think the original post was being addressed very well and wanted to try to get people going.
At the end of the day, we, the teachers, are not going to be there to actually fight for our students, so we had best prepare them. And I think we all agree basics are the key to this.
I always say that any idiot can learn martial arts, as long as that individual is motivated to do so. Just drilling the basics over and over may make the basics look real good, but they also might bore a student to death.
I say do the basics in a variety of ways. Start simple and get creatice. That is not only how we keep students motivated, but also make our stuff practical, by putting it to use, in a variety of situations, because, really, you never know where or when or how you, or more importantly here, your student, is going to be attacked!

:)

[Sandor]

Video?

Any of you folks consider video for a 'different' perspective/tool for refining basics?

For example, tape yourself doing the forms three times, each time from a different point, say 12:00, 3:00 and any of the 45's. Or take one of the tech lists and run through in the air and then on a person(slow then faster). Replay it and then YOU can be the one making some fixes. Nothing quite like seeing yourself and being the one saying 'Hey, your doing it wrong!' :P

Peace,
Sandor

[Sandor]

Roland,

Boredom can be real bad in class. Sucks the energy right out of the room.

I like to 'disguise' repetition for drilling in an idea. For example take any kick and work it in the air, then work it in a combo in the air, then take a different combo to the pads for a few more reps and finish off with a 'carrot on a stick' type timing/coordination drill on the pads.

Working through a cycle like that takes a student up in the high rep range for a given activity and does a good job of aleviating boredom.

Enjoy the secret decoder ring :)

Peace,
Sandor

[Rainman]

I did not mean earlier that everyone should give up their 'training secrets' or anything, just that i did not think the original post was being addressed very well and wanted to try to get people going.

You yourself have not added one tool (Concept, theory or principle). Of course basics can be done different ways... Then it is not the same basic anyomre is it? Take method. If is side thrust kick is changed to a whipping side thrust kick with the whip being internal it becomes a little different. POO or point of origin from natural weapon (foot) to target is still a strainght line (and the knee still unfolds). One difference is the whip comes back faster by its very nature-- and you finish.


I believe repitition is the key to good basics, and then studying them form different perspectives

1000 times slow for one time fast. If the perspectives you speak of are layering the tools of the trade over the simple movements of a strike, parry, etc.


:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rainman



How do you get to proper technique... and what is "proper technique"?

Excellent string of questions, and the problem with basics is a simple and complex one at the same time. They must be taught by someone who is truly knowledgeable, and those individuals are as rare as a full bottle of beer at Gou's party. Everyone thinks they know basics, most are not even close. Or their "understanding" doesn't get beyond a punch and a kick.
Really good questions and thought process.:asian:

[Nightingale]

I've videotaped myself before, but only for kata, just so I can see how my form looks without the distraction of actually doing it at the same time.

The way I check to see if I'm doing my basics right...I hit something. If it hurts (besides the obvious miniscule ouchie of skin smacking canvas because I don't really have callluses) then I'm probably doing something wrong and I ask my instructor to take a close look and see.

I think emphasizing good form is very, very important. sloppy students do things wrong and get hurt. Yes, sometimes basics need to be adapted to the student, but most of the time a basic punch is going to be executed the same way, wrist straight, impact is on large two knuckles, etc. I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student, its how the basics are used in techniques, because some basics are based on strength (blocks) , while others are more speed and agility dependant (parry and get out of the way), and what basic you use in a technique depends on body type, strength, and studying how you move.

[Rainman]

Excellent string of questions, and the problem with basics is a simple and complex one at the same time. They must be taught by someone who is truly knowledgeable, and those individuals are as rare as a full bottle of beer at Gou's party. Everyone thinks they know basics, most are not even close. Or their "understanding" doesn't get beyond a punch and a kick.

Nice to see you here Dr. C!:D


I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student,

I practice basics daily and am always updating my thoughts toward a particular movement. If we go back to the suggestion of loading a basic here are some of the things we might get:

Alignment= bone and muscle groups (Nightengale got that one)
Rotation and counter rotation = Micheal B (+ quite a few more)
POO or point of origin
path= vertical, horizontal, diagonal
method=snapping, whipping, thrusting, sliceing, roundhousing,hooking + ?
back up mass
bracing angle/ see alignment
gravitational marriage/ see alignment
body momentum
extension of weapon= around 70-90%
breath control/?
erect carriage
balance
postion/?
angle of insidence

Some things to consider

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

Can I add a couple.
How about the ripping effect as your practicing your basics. The ripping coming from one hand going out as the other is coming back.
Reverse motion.
Some people may use clockwise or counter clockwise rotation.
Point of reference when understanding the target in which you want to strike.
Those are just some I have seen. Hope that may help someone out.
Jason Farnsworth

[Rainman]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

Can I add a couple.
How about the ripping effect as your practicing your basics. The ripping coming from one hand going out as the other is coming back.
Reverse motion.
Some people may use clockwise or counter clockwise rotation.
Point of reference when understanding the target in which you want to strike.
Those are just some I have seen. Hope that may help someone out.
Jason Farnsworth

Yes that was a partial list for anyone and everyone to add to.;)

[jfarnsworth]

Hopefully that's what were here for.:)

[Doc]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

----I've videotaped myself before, but only for kata, just so I can see how my form looks without the distraction of actually doing it at the same time. ----

While I commend you for your efforts, aesthetics are not the answer from the laymans point of view.

----The way I check to see if I'm doing my basics right...I hit something. If it hurts (besides the obvious miniscule ouchie of skin smacking canvas because I don't really have callluses) then I'm probably doing something wrong and I ask my instructor to take a close look and see.-----

This is obviously a good idea and will help you tremendously, although limited with regard to the totality of human movement. But, someone has to teach you the movement and then observe you until you began to get it right more than wrong without correction, but you can never practice alone without the requisite knowledge of an advanced teacher observing and measuring against human interaction and results. I know this goes against everything in the "martial arts industry" where everyone is a "teacher" and the system encourages such activity. I was having this same conversation with Gene LaBell, Benny Urquidez, and Richard Norton last weekend at lunch. They allobserved the same thing but Gene said it best. He observed, "Martial artists like to think what they do is special and different with its own set of special rules." It's not.

----I think emphasizing good form is very, very important. sloppy students do things wrong and get hurt. -----

Good form as you say has a very important meaning at it's core. Understanding the basics is the difficult part for most in this industry. There are very few trainers and teachers.

----Yes, sometimes basics need to be adapted to the student, -----

Rarely. There has been a geat misunderstanding in the teaching of Mr. Parker. You don't adapt "basics." What you adapt (in Motion-Kenpo) is the conceptual "application" of those basics to the individual's preference by design.

-----but most of the time a basic punch is going to be executed the same way, wrist straight, impact is on large two knuckles, etc. I've discovered that most of the time, it isn't the basics that need to be modified for the student, its how the basics are used in techniques,-----

What level are you? You seem to understand things many seniors haven't figured out yet. (Mostly because it would require more education in an area they are already supposed to be experts in.)

------..... because some basics are based on strength (blocks) ,------

Gotcha on this one. Basics are NEVER based on strength, especially blocks. Unfortunately you would have to see me for me to prove that to you.

-----while others are more speed and agility dependant (parry and get out of the way), -----

Speed is not as much of an issue as most think and is actually a byproduct of proper training and study.

------and what basic you use in a technique depends on body type, strength, and studying how you move. -------

No, basics are basics and strength is a non-factor in the reasoning for their execution. Movement is important but done properly everyone should move the same except in Motion-Kenpo which allows personal tailoring of movement. A simplistic example: Imagine a basketball team and during practice the coach tells everyone they can shoot a jump shot anyway they like. With rare exception, all great jump shooters look the same in basic execution for a reason. There is only ONE right way to do it and it's the same for all human physical movement measured against the yardstick of maximum efficency and results. Those with "poor mechanics" perform poorly whether it's "free throws" or a "J." Top athletes always seek the top trainers to teach them the proper way to do things, and the numbers that do are relatively small. The same is true in Kenpo. Very very small.

[Rainman]

Alignment, placement, position, point. System management + 1 or 3 other things I know of. Now about the GCM....:rofl:

:asian:

[Nightingale]

I'm a first degree brown... hoping for second degree soon, but that's up to my instructor. I've gained my philosophy and understanding of the art primarily from my instructor, but also from having the perspective that what works for a man isn't always going to work for a woman.


regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.

I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work. A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however.

[Nightingale]

and sometimes you do need to adapt basics to the student, especially if the student has some kind of disability. have you ever tried teaching someone with no hands to throw a punch? you adapt and turn what you know of your basics and your knowledge of the art, and change the basics to work for someone with that kind of disability.

I said basicsSOMETIMES need to be adapted to the student, but that the MAJORITY of the time it is the technique that needs to be altered, not the basic.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

and sometimes you do need to adapt basics to the student, especially if the student has some kind of disability. have you ever tried teaching someone with no hands to throw a punch? you adapt and turn what you know of your basics and your knowledge of the art, and change the basics to work for someone with that kind of disability.

I said basicsSOMETIMES need to be adapted to the student, but that the MAJORITY of the time it is the technique that needs to be altered, not the basic.


With people of disability, read other perspective,
the instructor may have to review their
approach to demonstrate or to explain the
technique.

i.e. a blind person and self defense, the blind
person will rely on their hearing and also their
touch once they are in contact with the opponent
more than the sighted person who is learning
the same technique for the first time.

I have found it interesting to work with people
of different perspectives, it really enlightens
oneself.

Best Regards

Rich
:cool:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I'm a first degree brown... hoping for second degree soon, but that's up to my Instructor.


3rd Brown..... going for 2nd brown.... ?

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.

I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work. A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however. [/B]

Blocks are pimarily defensive moves employing physical contact to check, deflect, redirect, cushion, or stop an offensive move. Force on force is bad... and painful the way you are thinking of it. You are talking about a striking block or maybe an outward block without stepping off line- even so- there is information that hasn't been supplied to you.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

The factors to force engagement are, when executing a block or strike, physical contact can occur;
{1} when force meets force
{2} when force goes with force
{3} when force meets a neutral force
{4} when a neutral force meets a neutral force

proper usage is what you are after..... there is a need to be able to use all of these depending upon the situation.

:asian:

[Doc]

----I'm a first degree brown... hoping for second degree soon, but that's up to my instructor.----

Or maybe it's the other way around.

-----I've gained my philosophy and understanding of the art primarily from my instructor, but also from having the perspective that what works for a man isn't always going to work for a woman.----

I disagree. Properly executed technique works. Perhaps women sometimes have to be technically more correct because they can't "muscle" their way through, but no difference the way I teach.

-----regarding blocking:
I've been taught that a block meets force with force. ------

From my perspective that too is incorrect. If that were the case, than the stronger of the two would always win.

-----If your force is not equal to the force of the strike coming at you, you're going to get hit. Take an upward block vs. an overhead strike. If I block, and my force isn't great enough to stop his strike, I'm gonna get hit. If I parry and angle change, even though I may not be strong enough to stop his strike, I've parried it out of the way and moved myself in a different direction.----

Parries are not always a good idea. I see what you're saying. You've been taught the stronger one will always win when blocking. This is definitely not true, but you would have to be in front of me to have me prove it to you.

-----I'm a 130 pound female, 5'7". If I've got a 6'4" guy built like a mack truck trying to hit me, a block is probably not going to work.----

Obviously not the way you've been taught.

----A parry, angle change, and a well placed knee strike might be effective, however.----

Parries are very dangerous when used improperly or in place of a properly executed block.

[Doc]

-----and sometimes you do need to adapt basics to the student, especially if the student has some kind of disability.-----

No you do not. Basics when altered are no longer basics. You cannot adapt them, you may only adapt the application.

------have you ever tried teaching someone with no hands to throw a punch? you adapt and turn what you know of your basics and your knowledge of the art, and change the basics to work for someone with that kind of disability.-----

Because a person has no hand does not mean you teach the mechanics of punching differently. You never change basics. You either omit them altogether or adapt the application. You cannot teach a person without legs to kick so you omit "kicking" with the legs. However a person without a hand can learn to punch with the end of their forearm exactly as if they had a hand only shorter in reach. Adapt the application, never the basics. To do so with make them worthless.

[Zoran]

One of the things I found about some Kenpoists when they throw a block is they neglect there foot work. When I am defending against an attack, I try to avoid the strike by using foot work and changing my body position. Combining this with a good block is ideal.

Also, I preferr circular blocks for "force meets force". I find them to be faster and stronger than the traditional block. Example; a extended outward block is done by describing a circle. Compared to the traditional version done with a chamber.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



3rd Brown..... going for 2nd brown.... ?

:asian:

nope. my school counts first degree (plain belt, or one black stripe on brown belt if you really want to wear it), second degree (two black stripes) and third degree (three black stripes).

It doesn't make sense that brown belt would start with third degree and count down while black belt ranks start with first degree and count up, our ranks go:

white
orange (no yellow belt)
purple
blue
green
first brown
second brown
third brown
first black
second black
third black
fourth black
etc...

[Rich Parsons]

As some here have already said a block
can be met with force to force.

This does not mean that the stronger one
always wins. In Physics F=MA or Force is equal
the Mass multiplied by the acceleration.

Now to those that point out foot work, is correct
if the attacker is only using upper body strength
and not bode mechanics, and the defender uses
proper technique including foot and body, then
the actual 'mass' of the force could be heavier
from the defender even if they are physically
smaller than the attacker. :D

As for women not being able to execute a technique
due to strength, I agree with the post here
that men generally rely on their basic attribute
of strength, and that women are usually
technically better.

Whenever I find myself using strength, I always
step back and try to see what I am forgetting
to execute properly.

Just for your reference I am 6'3" and about 265
lbs. or 190.5 cm and 120.45 kgs.

Just my point of view.

Rich :cool:

[Klondike93]

It doesn't make sense that brown belt would start with third degree and count down while black belt ranks start with first degree and count up

Sure it does. The brown belt ranks are counting down to black.

TKD is done this way, you start at 9th gup and go to 1st gup then you go from 1st dan to 9th dan (usually in about 3yrs :D ).





:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Nightingale,

Force meeting force? An example, an upward block, is never meeting the attack with "the same" amount of force. I emphasize deflection as the block travels up the centerline of the body in an uppercut punch position, rotating at the appropriate time to strike the opponent's decending arm. This rotation is synchronized with the forearm "bracing" at a 45 degree from the humorous and a fist to a fist and a half above and in front of the forhead. This provides a bracing angle as you settle into your stance providing the foundation or base for this striking block. (I also try to encourage advanced students to block at or slightly above the elbow, where the nerve passes near the surface.)

This is a different block from the sweeping upward block that Shotokan and Tae-Kwon-Do teach. They truely meet force with force at a 90 degree angle. It is a bone-block that hurts both people. I know because I did it for years.

I understand why you prefer parries and redirecting an attack, but a properly executed basic can be just as effective regardless of size. If you incorporate the appropriate maneauvers, principles and concepts the blocks, as taught work. Doctor Chapel may have come on a little strong, but I think that is what he was implying ... then again, maybe not - I do not do SubLevel-4, but do know where the nerves are on the human body. This is important in not exposing or hurting ours, while striking the opponent's correctly and effectively. It is not just a strength thing, that is the difference in Kenpo and all the other Martial Arts I have studied.

Michael B.
UKS-Texas

P.S. Glad to see you here Dr. Chapel

[Klondike93]

I had just made black belt in TKD and swithced to kenpo and the first thing I had to do was learn how to block (this was back in 1987).

Kenpo taught me how to utilize proper bone alignment when blocking and to avoid blocking at 90 degree angles. Much more efficent in my opinion.


:asian:

[C.E.Jackson]

In the bennining there were only two ranks:
Student
Master

Then in America, Interem ranks were developed to satisfy American's need for recognition for progression such as we have in school - first grade - second grade - etc.

The specific color order varies from system to system. Some common colors are:

Orange = Novice
Green = Intermediate
Brown/Red = Advanced/ Skilled
Black = Expert


The Traditional American Kenpo Ranks as I know them

9th kyu White
8th kyu Yellow
7th kyu Orange
6th kyu Purple
5th kyu Blue
4th kyu Green
3rd kyu Brown (3 kyu = 3rd Degree)
2nd kyu Brown (2 kyu = 2nd Degree)
1st kyu Brown (1 kyu = 1st Degree)

1st dan Black (1st dan = 1st Degree)
2nd dan Black (2nd dan = 2nd Degree)
3rd dan Black (etc.)
4th dan Black
etc.


As you can see under black count "down" to black
and Black count "up".

It's like the colors are negitive numbers counting "down" toward "0"
and black are positive numbers counting "up" from "0".

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

nope. my school counts first degree (plain belt, or one black stripe on brown belt if you really want to wear it), second degree (two black stripes) and third degree (three black stripes).

It doesn't make sense that brown belt would start with third degree and count down while black belt ranks start with first degree and count up, our ranks go:

white ~ orange (no yellow belt) ~ purple ~ blue ~ green ~ first brown ~ second brown ~ third brown ~ first black etc...

Ok........ If that is how your instructor has changed it for "your" studio...... so be it (I respect his decision) ....... If I'm not mistaken Mr. Brock is an American Kenpo Stylist, whose instructor was Bob White who was under the late Bob Perry who was under Mr. Ed Parker and all were promoted under his system which is White, Yellow, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd Brown, 2nd Brown, 1st Brown, then 1st thru 10th Black.

Lets look at the historical roots as to why "IT DOES MAKE SENSE" the way "most all" the rest of the world views the brown belt titles.

The "belt system" Ed Parker uses is one of the few Japanese rooted items like the Uniform, we all still use that is not American.
In the Japanese system the students of the art are divided into two categories - those of the "KYU" rank (meaning = class) and those of the "DAN" rank (meaning = step). The two classes mirror each other in that, they both have set up 10 different primary ranks, the .......

1st Kyu rank is: Ju-kyu ~ (10th class student)
2nd Kyu rank is: Ku-kyu ~ (9th Class Student)
3rd Kyu rank is: Hachi-kyu ~ (8th Class Student)
4th Kyu rank is: Sichi-kyu ~ (7th Class Student)
5th Kyu rank is: Rok-kyu ~ (6th Class Student)
6th Kyu rank is: Go-kyu ~ (5th Class Student)
7th Kyu rank is: Yon-kyu ~ (4th Class Student)
8th Kyu rank is: San-kyu ~ (3rd Class Student)
9th Kyu rank is: Nik-kyu ~ (2nd Class Student)
10th Kyu rank is: Ik-kyu ~ (1st Class Student)

Then the Black Belt Ranks (Dans pronounced "DON")

Sho-Dan ~ (1st Step)
Ni-Dan ~ (2nd Step)
San-Dan ~ (3rd Step)
Yon-Dan ~ (4th Step)
Go-Dan ~ (5th Step)
Roku-Dan ~ (6th Step)
Sichi-Dan ~ (7th Step)
Hachi-Dan ~ (8th Step)
Ku-Dan ~ (9th Step)
Ju-Dan ~ (10th Step)

So you can see the last 3 ranks of the "Kyu" classification goes 3rd class then 2nd class then 1st class (which is the highest) even though there are 3 stripes....... yes, realize it is a little bit confusing! Another correlation is that of Naval ranks....... the 3rd Class is lower than that of the 2nd Class and of course 1st Class is the highest rank. Remember, Mr. Parker was in the Coast Guard, so to him and his system it made good sense.

Finally, after much thought and consideratioin..... Mr. Parker finally decided to keep the Japanese belt system but........... to do away with all the Japanese Classifications and names..... so he made all ranks either the color of the belt or just plain degrees.
Starting with 3rd Degree Brown (lowest) then 2nd Degree Brown then 1st Degree Brown. The Blacks are simply 1st degree thru 10th Degree Black Belt ....... of course these are for HIS system.

:asian:

[Nightingale]

that makes a little more sense...

how do you show that with stripes on a brown belt then?

three = three stripes then take away one for two, and one stripe for one?

or does a first degree have three stripes?

[C.E.Jackson]

First degree brown has 3 stripes = 1st kyu - go figure. LOL

[Nightingale]

I think that may be why somebody back in my kenpo lineage changed it... having three stripes but being a first degree is kinda confusing...

[C.E.Jackson]

I'ts also confusing that there is no "standard" for some the placement of some of the colors (other than orange, green, brown, black). That is why I don't use all of the colors that so many others use. I just award Yellow, Orange (three levels), Green (three levels), Brown (three levels), and apprentice Black (three levels) and Black Belt. Black Belt being awarded to those who complete ALL the 250+ Self Defense Techniques and ALL forms 1-6.


Originally posted by nightingale8472

I think that may be why somebody back in my kenpo lineage changed it... having three stripes but being a first degree is kinda confusing...

[C.E.Jackson]

Speaking of Belts... When do I get a Yellow Belt around this place???? :rofl:

[C.E.Jackson]

Never mind!!! I figgured it out LOL


Originally posted by C.E.Jackson

Speaking of Belts... When do I get a Yellow Belt around this place???? :rofl:

[C.E.Jackson]

WOW!!! After 30+ years of blood, sweat, and more bruises than I can count.... I finally get rank!!!!
Wait that didn't sound right???:rofl:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Ok........ If that is how your instructor has changed it for "your" studio...... so be it (I respect his decision) ....... If I'm not mistaken Mr. Brock is an American Kenpo Stylist, whose instructor was Bob White who was under the late Bob Perry who was under Mr. Ed Parker and all were promoted under his system which is White, Yellow, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd Brown, 2nd Brown, 1st Brown, then 1st thru 10th Black.

Lets look at the historical roots as to why "IT DOES MAKE SENSE" the way "most all" the rest of the world views the brown belt titles.

The "belt system" Ed Parker uses is one of the few Japanese rooted items like the Uniform, we all still use that is not American.
In the Japanese system the students of the art are divided into two categories - those of the "KYU" rank (meaning = class) and those of the "DAN" rank (meaning = step). The two classes mirror each other in that, they both have set up 10 different primary ranks, the .......

1st Kyu rank is: Ju-kyu ~ (10th class student)
2nd Kyu rank is: Ku-kyu ~ (9th Class Student)
3rd Kyu rank is: Hachi-kyu ~ (8th Class Student)
4th Kyu rank is: Sichi-kyu ~ (7th Class Student)
5th Kyu rank is: Rok-kyu ~ (6th Class Student)
6th Kyu rank is: Go-kyu ~ (5th Class Student)
7th Kyu rank is: Yon-kyu ~ (4th Class Student)
8th Kyu rank is: San-kyu ~ (3rd Class Student)
9th Kyu rank is: Nik-kyu ~ (2nd Class Student)
10th Kyu rank is: Ik-kyu ~ (1st Class Student)

Then the Black Belt Ranks (Dans pronounced "DON")

Sho-Dan ~ (1st Step)
Ni-Dan ~ (2nd Step)
San-Dan ~ (3rd Step)
Yon-Dan ~ (4th Step)
Go-Dan ~ (5th Step)
Roku-Dan ~ (6th Step)
Sichi-Dan ~ (7th Step)
Hachi-Dan ~ (8th Step)
Ku-Dan ~ (9th Step)
Ju-Dan ~ (10th Step)

So you can see the last 3 ranks of the "Kyu" classification goes 3rd class then 2nd class then 1st class (which is the highest) even though there are 3 stripes....... yes, realize it is a little bit confusing! Another correlation is that of Naval ranks....... the 3rd Class is lower than that of the 2nd Class and of course 1st Class is the highest rank. Remember, Mr. Parker was in the Coast Guard, so to him and his system it made good sense.

Finally, after much thought and consideratioin..... Mr. Parker finally decided to keep the Japanese belt system but........... to do away with all the Japanese Classifications and names..... so he made all ranks either the color of the belt or just plain degrees.
Starting with 3rd Degree Brown (lowest) then 2nd Degree Brown then 1st Degree Brown. The Blacks are simply 1st degree thru 10th Degree Black Belt ....... of course these are for HIS system.

:asian:

:rofl: STOP SHOWING OFF!

[Nightingale]

LOL, C.E.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Nightingale,

Force meeting force? An example, an upward block, is never meeting the attack with "the same" amount of force. I emphasize deflection as the block travels up the centerline of the body in an uppercut punch position, rotating at the appropriate time to strike the opponent's descending arm. This rotation is synchronized with the forearm "bracing" at a 45 degree from the humorous and a fist to a fist and a half above and in front of the forehead. This provides a bracing angle as you settle into your stance providing the foundation or base for this striking block. (I also try to encourage advanced students to block at or slightly above the elbow, where the nerve passes near the surface.)

This is a different block from the sweeping upward block that Shotokan and Tae-Kwon-Do teach. They truly meet force with force at a 90 degree angle. It is a bone-block that hurts both people. I know because I did it for years.

I understand why you prefer parries and redirecting an attack, but a properly executed basic can be just as effective regardless of size. If you incorporate the appropriate maneuvers, principles and concepts the blocks, as taught work. Doctor Chapel may have come on a little strong, but I think that is what he was implying ... then again, maybe not - I do not do SubLevel-4, but do know where the nerves are on the human body. This is important in not exposing or hurting ours, while striking the opponent's correctly and effectively. It is not just a strength thing, that is the difference in Kenpo and all the other Martial Arts I have studied.

Michael B.
UKS-Texas

P.S. Glad to see you here Dr. Chapel

Michael B.,

A question, of semantics so that I can make sure
I understand. When you say a Block of 90 Degrees
you mean that if the attack was coming down the
centerline perfectly vertical, then the block
would be across the horizontal plane, perfectly
horizontal, to be at 90 degreed to each other?

Or did you mean that the strike was coming
straight down perfectly vertical and you block
is going up perfectly vertical but that your
arms meet and the intersection looks like
graph paper and the arms are 90 degrees to each
other. The reason I ask is that the blocking
force in this case would be 180 degrees to the
attacking force.

Note: Please excuse me I am an engineer and
I want to make sure I understand and only ask
for clarification, not for any other reason. :asian:


Thank you for your time

Rich
:cool:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Doc
:rofl: STOP SHOWING OFF!

man, can't have any fun anymore.....:mad:

[Michael Billings]

In the shade here today. But actually I am talking about the angle of intersection, not the direction from which the force is coming from. I understand why you asked, it is a Michigan thing -- hee-hee, just kidding. My wife is from Kalamazoo, I truely do "... gotta girl from Kalamazoo."

You engineers, picky, picky, picky - that is why you like Kenpo. It gives you a logical framework in which to reference Physical Physics, as I like to call it.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Michael B.,
A question, of semantics so that I can make sure
I understand. When you say a Block of 90 Degrees
you mean that if the attack was coming down the
centerline perfectly vertical, then the block
would be across the horizontal plane, perfectly
horizontal, to be at 90 degreed to each other?
Or did you mean that the strike was coming
straight down perfectly vertical and you block
is going up perfectly vertical but that your
arms meet and the intersection looks like
graph paper and the arms are 90 degrees to each
other. The reason I ask is that the blocking
force in this case would be 180 degrees to the
attacking force.
Note: Please excuse me I am an engineer and
I want to make sure I understand and only ask
for clarification, not for any other reason. :asian:
Thank you for your time
Rich:cool:

It doesn't matter what the angle of attack or entry is...... but when you "strike" at a 90 degree angle ....... that angle is delivered relative to the attack, if less than it may be at a 45 or less and then called an agnle of deflection vs. angle of incidence.
:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Of course it is an ANGLE OF DEFLECTION.

I completely missed the obvious in terms of using the correct vocabulary to express my thoughts. Thanks! (no sarcasm)

Still the student,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

[Goldendragon7]

For a minute there I thought you were gonna talk about the angle of the dangle.........:rofl:

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Gotta go teach. Later!!

Boy, you should feel the heat.

[Goldendragon7]

:asian: