Just curious...



What styles of Tai Chi do we have represented on the board? If you'd like to add, how long have you studied and what got you interested?

Tachi:asian:

I studied the national (exercise-oriented) form, as it was all we had in town--and now we have no Tai Chi at all!

I practice Yang style short(24) and long(108) forms. I have yet to learn fan, jian, and dao forms from my new master.
Been doing it for 3 years.
I got interested mostly because of the tai chi master movies and stories :)

salute

:asian:

I study the sun style Taiji.I suppose it was all the stories of taiji fighting ability that sparked my initial interest.

I've been studying Chen style for several years now, and got into it for the hidden martial aspects. I wanted an art different from the standard 'knock down, kick'em' style I had seen.

Now I find many people who study Yang, but not many who work with Chen. A bit frustrating when I want to increase my skills :(

It's nice to see we have a great variety of styles represented on the board.


Tachi

hey tachi

i study chen also
never learned cannon fist though, hoping to learn soon from my new instructor

i also practice yang

i love all of it-taiji got me back into martial arts after 6 years without study- then i met an old guy named han in southern illinois- he tought me yang and wu and hes the only person ive met that teaches scattering hands(2 man fighting set) he was a cool cat.

I'm saiting for Cannon Fist as well - we have a "primer" version we teach to the colored sash ranks to get people to relax and learn how to move the dantien bette, then we play with the first form. I really enjoy that one, but I am anxious to get moving with the Cannon Fist - ahh, the Western Mind;)

How have you found Wu style to compare with Chen? I have heard there are similarities, but alas, no one in my area teaches Wu....


Talk soon -


Tachi

i wish that i had spent as much time in wu style. i think it is really a great technique. its sort of similar to chen with its small circles when winding from the waist. i learned a lot of it with high stances, which is so contradictary to traditional shaolin that its quite an experience. but as i understand, as you master chen, you can gradually raise your stances while maintaining your low center of gravity. have you heard of this?

Thanks for the info on Wu...I'd like to look into it sometime.

I have been told about the concept of cultivating enough chi in the dantien to allow the practitioner to keep stances high while maintaining a good root...can't say I've mastered it yet (ah, but why do we do this art if not to have a lifetime in which to learn;), but it is a concept I have been playing with.

Another similar idea is to work toward making the circular motions smaller and smaller with time while maintaining the internal circles as large as possible. That's a fun one to try to explain to students, and even better to apply to my own training!

I think that is why I like Chen so much - it seems like a good chess. Things are never quite what they seem on the surface. Lots of fun:D

Cheers -

Tachi

At the moment, I'm learning a long form of Yang style tai chi. Previously I did a little bit on my own trying to learn the simplified 24 posture form and the combined 48 posture form using books and videos. I'm not sure how well I learned it though, probably not great since I didn't have a teacher. I'm glad I do now though. I think our teacher also knows Chen style tai chi, but I'm not sure if he's going to teach us that at some point or not. Right now it's just Yang style and the class is split up in different groups, so only some people are learning that while others are learning other Shaolin forms.

It seems like most instructors that teach various taiji styles will start you off with yang style. i think that makes sense. most of the principles appear to be the same (as far as my novice experience can tell). yang is so much more fluid that it seems to facilitate understanding of emptiness and softness. the martial applications are similar to other forms. and chen style specifically, uses hard mixed with soft. that interplay can really make you miserable.

but chen is so much fun.

...that Yang appears to be taught before Chen if the Master knows both. I can definitely see the pro's in that - considering most "Round-Eye" practitioners usually get into Tai Chi because they want the relaxation and healing benefit it offers. I have been told that Yang is also more standardized now by the Chinese Government,but would that make it easier to learn?

When I started Chen style, we learned a basic form that is called "Cannon Fist", but looks nothing like the real Cannon Fist form. I was told later that it is more of a Canon of knowledge, and moves from simpler moves and energy concepts to more difficult. I was frustrated at first - thinking, "I wanted Chen Tai Chi, and all I get is a watered-down version?" Then, after 2 years with that form, I finally got into the First Form - an actual Chen Form! I was so excited, but then realized quickly how hard it was, even though it looked easy to do. The internal energy changes are so intricate and specific, that if I had learned this form initially, I may have mentally exploded from frustration.


OK - long post (sorry :rolleyes:) but I can see why some instructors opt for the Yang first or even overall. It's a good "taste" for newer practitioners, and definitely has its own skill development.


Cheers -


Tachi

I was told later that it is more of a Canon of knowledge, and moves from simpler moves and energy concepts to more difficult.

that sounds very practical, ive never heard of that, it must be a more modern day approach developed by your system? that kind of stuff is really helpful in the fast food culture, some people just dont have enough hours in the week to let the techniques "reveal themselves".

ive been told that only two of the original five chenstyle forms have been retained through the years. the practice form and the cannon fist form. have you heard this also?

Yep - that seems to be the case. Sad, in a way, but if the forms are not still timeless, they probably won't stand for long. My understanding also is that there are (as one might expect) variations on the First and Cannon Dist forms because each new generation adds his own 'flair'. I think it's great when a person can make the movement his/her own - at the same time, it's frustrating when I look for a standardized form and find many variations.....

isn't Art great?;)


Tachi

yeah, totally great. ive been trying to contact my instructor long distance for a while now to get more information about the origins of his taiji school. its very different from the compulsory chenstyle form, more traditional i believe, because it seems that all of the standardized stuff are newer versions of the original.

I practice Chen Pan Ling Tai Chi and am learning Yang Family as well. Ive been playing for almost 4 years all together and I got into it because it was my destiny....oh yeah, I also had serious back problems.
I started with the Yang 24 and have been practicing CPL for almost two years pretty seriously. I no longer have back troubles, can now work on a little Longfist and have started learning Ba Gua Zhang...

What are the differences between Chen Pan Ling Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi?

I've been studying Yang Style for about 8 years. I've learned the Long Form (108), Beijing Short Form (24), Straight Sword, and Two-Person Set. I'm currently working on a Fan Set.

I got into Tai Chi as basically a complement to my Kung Fu training. Since I was going to teach, my instructor made sure I had both the Kung Fu and Tai Chi up to par first.

WhiteBirch

This sort of "cross-training" has always been in fashion in the CMA!

If, when you say kung fu you mean martial arts, then Taiji and "kung fu" are the same thing... There is no difference.

If you are using the words kung fu to refer to skills of some sort developed over time, then Taiji and "kung fu" are still the same thing...

Perhaps what was meant is that someone practices a "kung fu" style in addition to their Taiji... I suspect that is what was intended.

I have been studying Yiliquan, and its included Yang style forms, since 1985 or 86. I started the Taiji phase around 1990ish, and have been working on it ever since.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Perhaps what was meant is that someone practices a "kung fu" style in addition to their Taiji... I suspect that is what was intended.


You are correct, that's what I meant. I'm very used to differentiating the two as separate entities, but they are really the same. To be more specific, I study Tien Shan Pai Kung Fu and Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

I think many Chinese stylists study both internal and external styles. They fit together quite nicely, with a lot of the same moves, and definitely complement each other.

WhiteBirch

there really is a lot of difference...the Chen Pan Ling tai chi is actually a composite of the Chen, Yang, and Wu styles. it incorporates various postures from the chen style that are left out of the yang, ie buddha pound mortar. it also incorporates viscious kicks and punches which rely on changing speeds and pulling back the gua with the fa jing...like chen style.

chen pan ling ta chi is nominally characterized by the 8-point directionality that I dont think is found in any other form- that would be the most outstanding difference to the eye...
there are also some different body mechanics at play in the way CPL incorporates the Chon Si silk reeling energies, primarily in the opening and closing movements of the various dantien and gua...we use the Chon Si legs that comes from the 'draw tai chi' chi gong and adds torque in the mechanic there...the hip gua have a different internal mechanic the way we play cpl from the yang... hope this helps a bit...my keyboard sucksJJJJ!J!!!!

all in all i feel like the cpl is closer to the original large frame boxing of the chen valley...we perform the set with 'kung hsiung pa pei' or firming the back and hollowing the chest with inclined torso...this makes the form more chang chuan or long fist-y...

Some say chen worked elements of ba gua and hsing yi into this form as well and we practice it with those elements highlighted ie cutting palm/hands like clouds, piercing palm/var. hanging horse, and standing palm/press and brush knee...
the hsing yi three legged stance is found in conjunction with some of the applications
you should check out Chen Pan Ling's Original TaiChi Textbook translated by JGeneral YW Chang...its available from amazon or anne carruther's Chen Pan Ling website....

hope this is
1) sensical
2)all correct
3)helpful
ive done a lot of research on this form and practice it diligently...i am very glad that I found it when i did!!!

later...

ps...my keyboard sucksJ!!!J!J!!J! says j instead of shiftingJ!J!J!

I need to understand more about the significance of large frame, small frame, etc. Are you implying that the original version was large frame?

As I have been taught, Small, Medium and Large frame in Taichi refers to the 'Size of the Ball' or how far the Chi is expanded in relation to the body practicing the form, in our school it is customary for the student to progress from a 'Larger' 'ball' to a smaller ball of energy being worked with...(hard to explain kinda)...this relates externally to the size of the 'Frame" one is using to form one's stance...so really the whole idea of 'Frame' relates both to the internal movement of chi as well as to the external concept of stance (if my feet are x distance apart my arms and movements should be in relation to that) and range of motion...Ive had a Cheng Man Ching player/teacher tell me what I was doing was not Tai Chi, but slowed down Kung Fu (meaning external style), and he really was wrong about that.. what i am practicing is Tai Chi with a larger frame...both in external form and movement of energy...

hope this helps and I welcome any comments whatsoever on this concept as it is something I think kind of strange about my school...
by the way...my teacher also teaches the Yang style with the Large Frame...

My teacher (Chinese, native of Hong Kong) taught us Wu first, then Yang, then Chen. He used to say that Wu is the son, Yang is the father and Chen is the grandfather. He also used to say that Wu was best to develop the lower body and posture, Yang was best to develop the arms and upper body and Chen was best to develop the head and mental aspects.

Unfortunately, I stopped training in Tai Chi about 5 years ago, mainly to concentrate on Aikido (I was cross training at the time but Aiki was closest to my heart), and partly because I got married and didn`t have the same amount of free time I had when I was single.

Originally posted by Tachi

Just curious...



What styles of Tai Chi do we have represented on the board? If you'd like to add, how long have you studied and what got you interested?

Tachi:asian:

I study the Yang Style, presentes by Terry Dunn, and was introuduced to him by my Master Instructor in Kenpo.

Ive been in it 3 years and have down the Bordsword Form, by Doc Fai Wong, The Long, Short Form by Mr. Dunn.

I got into it purely by accident, but now enjoy it immensely.:asian:

I just began Yang Style long (108) forms. I'm loving it!! I'm also beginign yoga.


7sm

Has anybody had experience with "free form" tai chi? I'm learning the Yang short form. Our teacher gave us a free form "homework assingnment." Any suggestions or comments would be helpful!

"Don't show off and act dumb."

Well, I guess we're all doing standing meditation. On the next exhale, open your eyes and post.

"Don't show off and act dumb."

After internalizing the coreography of the form and developing proper structural/postural integrity in the skeleton, ligs and muscles it is only natural that one should begin to actually 'play' with the postures and the way they inter-relate. Last week I mentioned to my Sifu that I had been practicing this way with Crane Spreads Wings posture and that I thought Crane Spread Wings was a major 'crux' movement that links all the postures together in different ways...he said 'Tell me more about that..' in traditional Sifu fashion...His opinion was that I should be working with all of the postures this way...going from every posture in the form to every other posture in the form, etc. I think that maybe this kind of study should definately be on personal time, but shouldnt be done until learning Push Hands and soaking up principles the principles of Tai Chi...
To me this is like John Coltrain or Miles Davis. Jazz respects the tradition behind it, and only after learning the proper music theory can the player spread out into improvisation...
Same as Post-structuralism or Post-modernism in philosophy...One must understand the foundations of a structure before rending those foundations...Gotta know about Aristotle before you throw his old crippled ass out the window..

humbly, my two cents

I have studied Yang style, since 1993. Done a little Tang Soo Do and will play with whatever weapons I can get my hands on.... :jediduel: I think Taiji lightsabre could be interesting.

Taiji Fan,

Loved the graphic and the concept of light sabre!! Sign me up now!!!

I started learning Taiji in 1989 and was subjected to several "versions" of Yang before finding a teacher who taught Traditional Yang Family Taiji as taught by Yang Zhen Ji the eldest living son of Yang Cheng-fu. Also practice Jian, Sabre, and Tai Chi Ruler, as well as having dabbled in Liu Ho Pa Fa and Bagua.

Did some Chen (laojia) just to find out the relationship between Chen and Yang. Loved it, (and discovered the relationship) but think that cross training (particularly in Taiji) is not a good thing. so now stick exclusivley to Yang.

but think that cross training (particularly in Taiji) is not a good thing. so now stick exclusivley to Yang.


why do you think this is not a good thing?

Theneuhauser,

Good question!

I think in the early stages of ones Taiji training, you should try as many styles as are open to you, so that you can decide which style suits you best and which style you would wish to study in depth. I am always wary of teachers who claim to teach several styles and I wonder to what depth their understanding is of each style. It was only when I met the Traditional Yang teacher that I realised I would need another lifetime if I wanted to understand the complexities of Traditional Yang. I studied Chen (for a short time) with a student of Chen Xiaowang and realised I could not study both styles. I just did not have enough time left in this life. And although there is no doubt that the basic priciples of Taiji are common to all legitimate styles of taiji, there is just too much to each style to absorb. Yes, I can make a good stab at Chen style and to an uninitiated eye it would look reasonably good, but it would only be cosmetic. A real Chen stylist would immediately see the lack of depth in my training. So I now devote all my time to studying. practicing and teaching Traditional Yang. After all this time it still surprises me how little I know!

I think to do justice to your style and your teacher, it is only possible to really work on one style.

Regards

excellent clarification, east wind!


i would tend to agree with you, many systems are so vast in their scope, that proficiency comes with in depth commitment and many years of concentrated study. personally, i would prefer to focus on chen taiji, but the system is no longer complete and to my knowledge there is noone that knows the whole system anymore, do you know this to be true? incidentally, there is a "student" of chen xiaowang here in tempe, arizona also. he seems to have students in every country.:shrug:

Theneuhauser,

Sorry I can't comment on the state of Chen taiji as I don't know enough about it. I think that undoubtedly things change within family systems and I would doubt that any of the family systems are now "complete" or as they were originally transmitted by their founder! Although I think that the underlying principles will always be present (or should be, otherwise it is no longer worthy to be called a particular family system). I think this is back to the original argument that people have with Cheng Man-ching stylists calling their sytem Yang. I also think it is a pity that some teachers do not see the need to continue their own studies. It is because of this that "variations" keep appearing.

If I had not started working with Yang taiji, I think I would certainly have taken up Chen. It is a wonderful system. I wish you luck with you studies.

Regards

as ive heard, chen style once had 5 essential forms among other things. ive been told that nobody knows more than 2 of them plus cannon fist.

Just curios....What is "canon fist" and "scattering hands" ???

Only newbie to tai chi..

cannon fist is an explosive power form created to practice chen taiji with combat in mind. and the only scattering hand form ive ever seen was from my old sun/yang instructor. its basically a 2 man sparring set-called scattering hands because unlike push hands, where your almost always in contact with the opponent, you are usually disconnected more like boxing.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

there is a "student" of chen xiaowang here in tempe, arizona also. he seems to have students in every country.:shrug:
but not in India. :((
anyways i m doing yang 24 ...hopefully learn yang 103
i m doin it from last 4 months...i started with tai ji becuase i just wanted it soooooooo bad from the very first moment i saw(even before i knew about jet li, some 6.5 yrs back)but couldn't find any teacher around my area...
-TkdWarrior-

I've been doing yang style for about 4 years. I don't bother with the forms much at the moment but concentrate more on the fajing and pre-emptive training methods.

While most people tend to study Yang (or a derivative of Yang) it is amazing the amount of people who don't realise that it comes from Chen style. In fact during a recent conversation with an indoor student of Chen Zheng Lei from Lianyungang, he was astounded to learn that people still think that the Godfather of taiji was Chang San Feng.

he said "This is a story thst was created by the grandson of Yang Lu Chan. Yang Lu Chan studied taijiquan in ChenJiagou then took his skill to Beijing. He and his family taught palace officials. When his grandson wrote a book he decided that taiji should have a much grander origin thn a poor rural village so he looked for a famous Taoist to give credit to. He came across Chan San Feng a monk from Wudang mountain. However Chan San Feng was a scholar and not a martial artist. He also lived at the wrong time in history. This book went out to Taiwan and Hong Kong just before China closed its doors. There was no one able to criticise this story and it spread to the west. This story has been long disproved in China, but again lack of knowledge in western taiji teachers helps to keep this myth alive

just something that may be of interest to you folks!:asian:

Well done Taijifan.

Nothing more satisfying than poking a stick into the hornets nest!!:D

"When asked about breathing in Taji, my master replied "YUes, keep doing it"

No offence intended....its just about time we stopped perpetuating the myths surrounding taiji......its like the people who try to boost their status by claiming false lineages .....like I studied with master so and so up a mountain in China...lets get it straight not every Chinese person is an expert or a master of taiji and so many of the made up lineages are un verefiable anyway, just get your potograph taken with a Chinese resteraunt owner and hey presto instant 'Chinese' linage......now that China is becoming more open and more people are getting acces to higher level teachers I hope that some of the more unscrupulous folks will fade into the background and the overal standard will start to go up.....who knows we may even get some proper recognition as a martial art ! So many Western teachers have 'filled in the blanks' creating really what is their own system (nothing wrong with that...everything develops) but claiming it to be 'as genuinely taught by...Master so and so from up a mountain' who thought none of his own family were worthy of giving the secrets too, but some westerner he met five minutes ago is worthy of becoming the next linage holder....as if:rolleyes:

How long should Yang 37 Form take? We do 7 mins

George,

Do you mean Cheng Man-ching form or the real Yang Short Form as formulated by Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun?

Either way, seven minutes seems pretty fast.

Incidentally, Yand Zhen Duo has just introduced a 13 step form.

"When asked about breathing in Taji, mys Master replied "Yes keep doing it!"

Best wishes

The 37 form is Cheng Man Ching`s, I believe CMC himself said around 5-7 minutes, 6 minutes being the most beneficial time pace for the 37 form. I don`t know about Yang Zhenduo or Yang Jun`s version,,, Do they even have a 37 form? I thought the short taught by the Yang lineage was 49 movement?

Kong,

Of course, you are absolutely correct in that the Yang Short Form (As taught by Yang Zhen-duo and Yang Jun) has 49 postures. The point I was making (perhaps labouring might be more appropriate) is that Cheng Man-ching form is exactly what it is - Cheng Man-ching form and not the Yang short form. The postural and structural differences owe little to Traditional Yang Forms.

Very best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my master replied "Yes keep doing it"

I hate to interrupt this discussion, but I was reading "Will" the autobiography of G. Gordon Liddy, and he writes about his training in a martial art called "High T'ai Chi Tiger-style". I was interested in knowing if anyone on this board has ever heard of it, and if you have, how does it differ from other styles of Tai Chi? Thank you.

Brian

The point I was making (perhaps labouring might be more appropriate) is that Cheng Man-ching form is exactly what it is - Cheng Man-ching form and not the Yang short form
I didn`t mean to argue this point and I totally agree. I was just replying to the question about the duration of the form.

Its the yang short form by Cheng Man-Ching.

Hello George.....I am sure by now you might have picked up on a little freindly argument going on here....the distinction between Cheng Man Ching STYLE and Yang STYLE...Cheng Man Ching style doesn't do the Yang short form, it does the Cheng Man Ching style short form.......Cheng Man Chings style of taiji was 'developed' from his studies of Yang style, but it is very different to the Yang family style.....just as Yang was developed from Chen to be come a different style. It is most commonly thought that all Cheng Man Ching did was to cut out some of the repetitions of the Yang long form to create his form, but he did more than that, he also altered the body mechanics that make Yang style what it is........CMC stylist frequently have very upright backs in all the postures, this is incorrect in Yang style as it breaks the connection in the lowerback. The back leg is too loose in the knee so there can be no energy from the back foot through the leg ad beyond. The hands are floppy with an over emphasis on relaxation and lack energy and spirit. Many CMC people I have worked with also have hunched backs over emphasising and missenterpretating the essence of sinck the chest pluck up the back. Even in the first move of raise hands CMC altered the method in which its done....ie wrists leading and floppy hands, you don't see this in Yang style, the wrists are never floppy and most times the hands are lead by the finger tips, above all you can clearly see the mechanical structure in Yang style. Sorry to be a bore, this is sucha bug bear of mine...based on years of rubbish training with rubbish teachers and then finally seeing the light........

Good summary Taijifan.

My thoughts entirely. Some might claim that we are only indulging in semantics, but I for one think that the distinction is important. I have no problem with what Cheng Man-ching stylist do, only what they call it! For instance I would be totally wrong in calling what I do (Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan) modified Chen style!!

Regards

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes keep doing it"

Hey Guys and Gals! I have just started studying Professor Cheng's Tai Chi because it is taught in conjunction with my Chinese Medical training. After learning Yang Chen Fu 38 form and practising Chen Pan Ling Taiji as my real primary focus, I have found the CMC form to be pretty cool. I dont like the way it is usually taught in pieces, I feel that breaks the continuity of what Taiji really is. But in linking the postures together properly with flow its pretty nice. The small stances kind of mess me up though! I also can see now where William CC Chen derived his 'Body Mechanics' from. Some of the ideas Ive learned from the CMC style have helped my push hands a lot. (After being thrashed by CC Chen's students last year at Orlando Nationals)

-2cents...

what do you mean 'taught in pieces'?

Originally posted by Tachi
What styles of Tai Chi... how long have you studied and what got you interested?

Yang style. About thirty weeks.

We are fortunate to have an instructor about 20 mi away- I live in a rural area. I'd been curious about it for a long time, even got some tapes and books and tried to do some on my own. When one of the local martial artists, who I'd met at seminars and events, was ok'd by her sifu to teach, I signed up. She studies Kali Jukine Do, Chinese Long fist, and is good at working the martial applications of TCC. I also study American Kenpo, and have a slightly over developed Yang nature. TCC provides a good ballance.

What is this?

It's a PMA based hybrid. Pretty effective. I don't remember all the details, but they do grappling, joint locks and manipulation, a lot of weapons besides the PMA stuff, and a complete venue of PMA.

Just incase... I doubt it anybody mentioned this one

Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan (Yang Family Hidden Tradition Taiji or T'ai Chi)

I don't study this, well let me say not yet... I don't train in this art, but I will pretty soon... oh yea the reason you guys might not know about it because its a Hidden Tradition, so of course is a very rare style...

for more info on Yangjia Michuan, American Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan Assocation (AYMT) (http://www.aymta.org)

I have been learning Wu Style for almost three years now, very much the rank beginner. I've learned the 108 square form, 54 form, jian, dao, several types of push hands, and meditations. Became a disciple this year :D

i learned a lot of it with high stances, which is so contradictary to traditional shaolin that its quite an experience

Wu style can be practiced with low stances, though I have not seen anyone doing stances as low as Chen style at my school. I'm currently working on a higher stance after working on sitting lower. It is a challenge to keep the root in a high stance, but theoretically, the height of the stance shouldn't matter.

For those without any knowledge of Wu style, it is characterized by 100% weight separation, and the forward lean. Go to www.wustyle.com (http://www.wustyle.com) for more information (it's the main website)

To answer an earlier question - tiger style is not a separate style, it is just a description of one way of practising the form in Yang style.

The three methods are:

Crane - high posture
Tiger - mid posture
Snake low posture (ie "under the table").

Just three different ways of practising the form.