I have been working with a designer to come up with a simple, affordable and safe way to train with the tomahawk.
This is what we have come up with.
http://www.woodlandarchery.com/images/tomahawks.jpg

The tomahawks are now 18 inches long and made out of stiff plastic (like a sharky training knife). I will be sellling them for $15 each plus $5 shipping for a total of $20. If you would like one for your training, please email me at:
samurai@INMartialArtsAcademy.com

I can take Paypal, checks, cash, whatever.
Thanks and sorry about the commerical. I just think this will meet a need in the martial community.
Jeremy Bays
http://www.WoodlandArchery.com

Wow, Jeremy. There has been a need for tomahawk trainers. I may be contacting you to get my hands on some...

yours,

Paul

Wow, Jeremy. There has been a need for tomahawk trainers. I may be contacting you to get my hands on some...

yours,

Paul

American Tomahawk sells one. They arn't cheap though...Also they're not sharp, but they'll still hurt if you get whacked.

www.americantomahawk.com


I have one, I like it.

/steve kovalcik

I like!

Any chance of international shipping?

I have seen the American Tomahawk Trainers and they are very nice.

The trainer I designed came from my personal experience with the tomahawks. I padded a "live blade" with leather and foam but it was still too heavy to train with. It felt that instead of a tomahawk (with a cutting surface) I now had a war club.

My next experiment was with a foam head tomahawk. This was just too flimsy and did not feel right. So I designed these.

They are made from hard plastic much like the Sharky Training Knives. They WILL HURT if you get hit with them, but they will not take your arm off.

Anyone that wants to see them can visit my website at:
http://www.WoodlandArchery.com and click on TOMAHAWKS.

If you contact me directly at Samurai@INMartialArtsAcademy.com I will pay the US Shipping making them $20 each.

As for International Shipping- Send me your address and I will quote you a shipping rate. I do not see a problem shipping these overseas.


PS- I cut the handles down from the picture. They are 18 inches now and not 20 inches. The shorter handle gave me better control and 6 out of the 8 REAL tomahawks I have seen have shorter handles.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Anyone in the Central Indiana Area (Muncie, Anderson, etc) please consider coming to this seminar on BJJ. I will also be teaching Native American Tomahawk at this seminar.
Got this link for more information.
http://www.Athlesis.com

Thank you,
Jeremy Bays
www.WoodlandArchery.com

I just put my order in a few days ago. I was wondering how durable these really are. I figured on using them for light contact and slow speed. If they are stronger though, I'd like to go full contact with them. Do you think they will hold up.

Also when was that seminar in Indiana and when is the next one. I might want to come in if you are doing some tomahawk.

Got my stuff in the mail today. I love the handling of the trainer. It is suprisingly sturdier than I expected, thicker in build and of a stiffer plastic than I thought. It is also longer and generally larger than I thought. I think I will test it with some contact this coming week.

How has this Tomahawk held up in sparring?
I have not had one break yet in sparring. I beat the snot out of the first test model and it has held up strong.

I will be sending information on an upcoming Tomahawk and Long Knife seminar coming up at the end of the summer in Indiana. It will be around September.

The format will be 3 or 4 instructors presenting there own unqiue stuff. Each guy is given about 1.5-2 hours of teaching time. We have a JKD guy, and a Kali person, and myself (Tomahawk/Native American Combatives)

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
http://www.WoodlandArchery.com

%-} No Quarters Given

How has this Tomahawk held up in sparring?
I have not had one break yet in sparring. I beat the snot out of the first test model and it has held up strong.

I will be sending information on an upcoming Tomahawk and Long Knife seminar coming up at the end of the summer in Indiana. It will be around September.

The format will be 3 or 4 instructors presenting there own unqiue stuff. Each guy is given about 1.5-2 hours of teaching time. We have a JKD guy, and a Kali person, and myself (Tomahawk/Native American Combatives)

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
http://www.WoodlandArchery.com

%-} No Quarters Given


So far it has held up great. I haven't really beat up on it too much, but for basic dead pattern work with slight to moderate impact it's been a champ. Good stuff. Keep me posted on the seminar.

I got a chance to handle one of these trainers last January at Bowies on The Beach. It works very well and is well worth the investment. The weight is a bit light but that is probable o.k. till one gets used to the pecularities of the Hawk. At some point one will need to migrate to a heavier Hawk to get the real feel of the real thing. This is a good start up trainer that I highly recommend.

Best
Dwight

I met Dwight at an ARMA event in VAB some years ago and I respect his research in this field highly. If it's good enough for him I feel confident in that assessment.

I’ve been able to handle these plastic trainers a couple times now. For my taste they are too light to be much use for solo training. However, until proper control is learned, they are quite useful for partner drills. Plus, I’ve heard that they stand up well in sparring.

Some of Dwight’s guys from the School of Two Swords were showing me some hard plastic covers they put over the head of their real tomahawks. It works well as a trainer, but like I said, my partner needs to show extraordinary control before I let them swing one at me!

ALL : I suppose to remarks on Tomahawk sparing might be appropriate. Last year (maybe it was the year before) one of my senior instructors, Jim Smith of Gymbodies Fitness, and I did some sparing with a couple of padded Hawk trainers. The results were not pretty at all. Both of us walked away with lots of brusing, even with all the pads there is something about that extended head of the hawk that seems to double the force of impact. I can't really explain it, just something you have to feel. Humh! Like I did with my elbow, almost 2 months to heal up. Bottom line is you have to double up on the padding of the head to make it reasonably safe. A hard rubber core with the head shape filled out with closed cell foam seem to do better but I yet to find anything totally safe. The hawk will simply 'blow through' a lot of blocks so you've got to get out of the way and move a lot more. There is a motivation there, if you know what I mean. Often you will hear some instructors talk about how good the head is for hooking your opponent's weapon. Well, that is true but consider that if you hook another hawk, he has got just as much as you have him. For me it seems to work better simply to knock the weapon out of the way rather than trying to do some exotic hooks and the like. The hawk spars well with a padded knife in the left hand. We've worked it for both Reverse and Saber grips both which are complementary. For me, I think that Hawk techniques should be kept as simplistic as possible. All too many people try to apply to much FMA to the weapon and while some of it will work the Hawk was just not designed to 'Flow' . When you get on a pell, this will prove itself to you. I use a core group of fundamentals that can be applied at medium and close range. The use of rake techniques with the tomahawk held a full chamber is worth learning, it is very Silat-like at this range. Well, that's enough.

Shane: Thanks for the kind words. The time I spent with the Virginia Beach ARMA was really worthwhile and I walked away very impressed with the skill and professionalism of that group and got a new appreciation for the use of the Long Sword. The time several of you spent with John over dinner at my house was indeed quality time. My students still talk about the depth of the discussions. As always my door is always open to all of you. It is a shame that traffic in the Tidewater area makes Yorktown and Virginia Beach seem a hundred miles away.

Best
Dwight

I think it would be quite an accomplishment if someone could produce a good trainer hawk that is safe for live sparring, while realistically representing the hawk. The biggest problem I would think would be making one that is heavy enough at the head to mimick the hawk while being safe. Mr. Mclemore describes first hand some of these issues.

Well...it gives us all something to think about. If only I had a lab and endless amounts of resources to come up with solutions to this kinda ****.... ;)

:uhyeah:

Hello Mr. McLemore and all others.

Thanks for the kind words on the Training Tomahawk and Tomahawk sparring in general.

I would like to echo a comment that was made
All too many people try to apply to much FMA to the weapon

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. When people take the FMA and stick a tomahawk in there hand and call it Native American or Indian fighting or something like that. FMA DOES teach axe methods, but they ate FMA axe methods....no better, no worse just different.

Dwight's book FIGHTING TOMAHAWK is EXCELLENT in this manner. His methods and techniques are not dressed up FMA or Kenpo but good solid basics. Get the book and study it to death. I am on my second copy so far.

Another thing to remember, Native Americans (all tribes and nations) never wrote down a tomahawk fighting manuel or sylabus. We are trying to recreate a lost art form. We DO KNOW that accord to archological digs, most blows that ended in death where straight over the head blows. SIMPLE not some 12 move combination that take 2 years to learn.......simply chop wood one minute and chop skulls the next.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays
www.WoodlandArchery.com/Tomahawks

If I may, I would like to recommend getting a copy of Dr. Wayne van Horne of Kennishaw State University ( he is on the Faculty there & has a website contact.) Doctorical Thesis on the Warclub of the Indians of the East cost. This wasl an key resource for me and gives one a very keen understanding of why the indians were so eager to adopt the European introduce trade axe and tomahawk. Appartently they had a martial tradition when they encountered the Spanish and French. Great read, solid historical parallel written by a man that is not only a great writer and scholar but one hell of a fine martial artist. Another interesting read on warclub use comes fromt he other coast with The Conquest of Mexico by Benal Daiz Castello (sp). He was with the Cortez expedition and give a keen account of what it was lilke to face they Aztec. This MAY be on-line somewhere.


Best
Dwight

Thank you for these references. I have read Mr. Van Horne's thesis and that is where I pulled the information about the "overhead strike" being the major blow used to kill in battle.

I would also like to thank you for the Aztec reference. I found the complete title The Bernal Diaz Chronicles: The True Story of the Conquest of Mexico by Diaz del Castillo. It was published in 1956-57 by Doubleday books. 483 libraries cross the country have this book in their collection so the odds are pretty good that you can find it somewhere. If you can not, then request it through your local public libraries Inter-Library Loan service. All this coming from a Library Computer Geek

Thanks
Jeremy Bays
%-} No Quarters Given

Hi everyone.

I was just browsing as usual, and I saw one thing that caught my eye; and that was the idea of using FMA or another martial art to apply to the Tomahawk.

I don't think that is a bad thing. The reality is, we have no "Tomahawk system" that has been passed down through the generations. So, to learn how to fight with the weapon we have only a couple of choices: 1. Learn another combat system, and translate that knowledge to the tomahawk, 2. Do some historical research on the way it was done by the different cultures (Native Americans, Frontiersman, etc.) and try to piece it together, or 3. Some mixture between 1 and 2.

If you just want to learn how to fight effectively, #1 is the most logical solution. So, what is wrong with that? In another system, you are developing attributes and how to move in combat. We all have 2 arms and 2 legs, so how we wield a weapon will be similar, regardless of culture or time-period. Strategies will only differ per combative circumstance; however if you just want to learn to fight, then you can adjust your strategy to fit your circumstance, and there is no need for historical accuracy.

#2 by itself is not an effective way to learn to fight, in my opinion. To be a skilled fighter, you need to heighten your awareness and abilities through "movement" and attribute building, and this generally has to be done through a competent instructor. If one just researches how a culture fought without learning how to fight himself, then one may be able to explain academically how a culture fought, but that will be as far as it goes.

#3 is probably the most effective way of researching a historical martial art. You are developing your fighting abilities through one medium, and applying the universal concepts of movement to your research on how cultures fought. This seems the most effective way to try to piece together a historical art while also learning to fight. It seems that those who do great work in the historical fighting arts take this route. However, with this option, you are still learning another "martial art" to develop your abilities as a fighter.

So I guess I just don't see what the problem is with using another art, like FMA, to aid in your skill, development, and research. My only problem is the lack of integrity in the martial arts. When someone claims "I do a native American style that I learned from my Grandfather," when really they pieced together FMA and kenpo and added a little "native" flavoring. It's not the use of another martial art that is problematic to me, as no combat system exists in a vacuum; it's the lying about it all that gets to me.

Well...sorry for the long post. I guess I am just bored tonight. I probably won't respond or argue to those who disagree, because I am generally too busy to post like this. However, that is just my take on it all. I take an interest in the topic because my instructor is an avid supporter of Western Martial arts. He makes no dishonest claims, just likes the research and development and is happy to support those who are doing this with integrity.

That said, I have actually heard your name, Mr. Mclemore, mentioned as a good resource. Also, Mr. Bays, I think I have heard your name mentioned too as someone who is doing some unique work with the Native American arts. I think we were going to try to get you up to Michigan at some point? Maybe Paul can clarify. I know that he has been busy gun training and developing programs for security professionals, and has had no time lately to focus on the seminar circuit.

Anyways, keep up the good work guys.

Yours,

James

I don't think that is a bad thing. The reality is, we have no "Tomahawk system" that has been passed down through the generations. So, to learn how to fight with the weapon we have only a couple of choices: 1. Learn another combat system, and translate that knowledge to the tomahawk, 2. Do some historical research on the way it was done by the different cultures (Native Americans, Frontiersman, etc.) and try to piece it together, or 3. Some mixture between 1 and 2.



How about a 4th option. I like to call it the DB method. Take the weapon and spar with it at high speed and impact. Learn what is effective by doing it.

James & Everyone :

Really good points. You've probably 'nailed' this one. Actually today it is hard to find anyone who has not in some way had some FMA influence. It is too bad we don't have a historic manual on the tomahawk to work from; However in reality we actually do, one just has to look a bit. Again as I mentioned on another post, check out Dr. Wayne Van Horne's ( Kennishaw State University) Doctorical Thesis. He reveals a lot of the techniques recorded by the earlier explorers ( Spain & France) describing how the tomahawk was used. Go to a Pow Wow sometime and watch the dancing. My friend Pete Kautz and I discovered some time back that warriors throughout the ages have danced with thier weapons, brandishing and flourishing it. Looks like angles of attack to me and a good way to teach 'a system' to the young folks. It's all conceptual, interesting isn't it. There is a lot of martial arts in the anthropology books. There is a message there I think.

Again, good post very enlightening.

Best
Dwight

Mr. McLemore: Thank you for the good resources sir (you too, Jeremy). I agree that there are a lot of martial arts in anthropological and historical studies. If I thought it could get me employed somewhere interesting that would pay the bills, I'd persue a MBA in one of these myself, as they are both interests of mine. Also, it is a breath of fresh air to see martial artists who take an academic approach to their studies.

James: As I told you today, but I'll say so for the sake of the forum: yes, Mr. Bays and I talked awhile back, and I am very interested in having him come down or going to something he is at, and seeing what his research has yielded. I haven't forgotten about the discussion; I have just been extremely busy with work and special projects.

OULobo: ...All I have to say is "Ouch!" ;)

Paul

I agree that there are a lot of martial arts in anthropological and historical studies.
Yes, grimfang was talking about this at the WMAA camp. There has been legitimate research on many of these topics! On the other hand, a lot of what you see in things like JAMA and in books marketed to martial artists are not of that quality.

If I thought it could get me employed somewhere interesting that would pay the bills, I'd persue a MBA in one of these myself
Hmmm, it'd be an M.A. or possibly M.S., but to do in-depth research it takes more time--more like a Ph.D.!

Yes, grimfang was talking about this at the WMAA camp. There has been legitimate research on many of these topics! On the other hand, a lot of what you see in things like JAMA and in books marketed to martial artists are not of that quality.


Hmmm, it'd be an M.A. or possibly M.S., but to do in-depth research it takes more time--more like a Ph.D.!

Then I'd be unemployed with a PHd, unless I taught college with it. I'd better pick something like mathematics if I want to make the big bucks! ;)

I've been lucky in the research department by having three students who are historians and characters at Colonial Williamsburg. Unfortunately we all have to work for a living and life sometimes gets in the way of our bliss. I'm really lucky now that I've got two retirements to have the time to do better research than I did. It is really nice to have time to workout regularly, when I choose to. The wife continues to work. As for my degree, I have an Master of Education and have not used it much throughout my careers in the Military and Civil Service. If I had it all to do again, I think I would open my own business because it is really nice being the guy who sets your own schedule. It is a shame that the martial arts just don't pay what it should. Oh well, just keep playing the lottery and maybe, just maybe. You know you might just take a look at getting one of the on-line degrees, don't pay any attention to the Educational purists, a degree is a degree and distance learning is just as valuable. Besides who whats to be president of Harvard anyway. Working with riders and rednecks is a hell of a lot more fun.

You guys take care and for those that are: Happy Father's Day

Best
Dwight

My point in saying "There is too much FMA in Tomahawk fighting methods" is not to put down the Filipino Martial Arts. HONESTLY, I love the stick and knife work they have to offer. My point is that too many people claim this is original "Anicent Native America Secret Lost Magical Techniques" :ultracool
If they were honest and said "This is FMA applied to the axe or Tomahawk" then I would listein to them.

The tomahawk is not a difficult weapon to figure out. The sharp end goes in the bad guy and you hold the handle end. The problem is figuring out all the historical tidbits that have been lost over time. Someday they will be looking at our modern martial arts saying "This is the Ancient American Method of using a old-fashion M-16 rifle". It all comes full circle.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays

My point in saying "There is too much FMA in Tomahawk fighting methods" is not to put down the Filipino Martial Arts. HONESTLY, I love the stick and knife work they have to offer. My point is that too many people claim this is original "Anicent Native America Secret Lost Magical Techniques" :ultracool
If they were honest and said "This is FMA applied to the axe or Tomahawk" then I would listein to them.


I can relate here. It is really more of a problem with integrity then anything else. If one comes up with a tomahawk fighting method based off FMA and other influences, and they say so, then this is fine as they are being honest. It annoys me as well when one uses modified FMA to tomahawk and claims it to be an ancient native american system, as I feel that it is dishonest.

So...I can relate! :asian:

No argument. If I had a tomahawk in my hands I think I could use FMA principles to defend myelf with it--but, while that's good for me, it doesn't mean that that's how the weapon was actually used. It'd be nice to know the true histroy--then argue the benefits of different techniques.

Another VERY IMPORTANT thing to consider when working with the tomahawk/axe/warclub is it's slow recovery time after a blow.

To explain, simply swing the axe and miss. You can feel the weight of the axe head follow through. While this adds a whole lot of extra power, if you miss it is very bad.

A stick, knife, and even some swords have quiicker recovery times. ONLY strike when you have a solid opening and target.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

%-} Talking about Tomahawks I am awaiting both my Vietnam Ranger Tomahawk "Trainer" and my Vietnam Ranger Tomahawk, should be here any day! Looking forward to practicing with it!! Take a look at video footage of "The Man" Peter Lagana go to the AMerican Tomahawk Company website.